Thoughts on being a vegetarian.

[Jenny in Florida]

23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Add in we are also gluten free now and ugh. 

Oh, yeah, that definitely makes things more challenging. I had been vegan for years before I figured out I also needed to go gluten free. I actually sat in my bed and cried for a while at the thought of what that new restriction was going to do to my life. 

Fortunately, like everything else, it has gotten easier and more routine with time. Nowadays, unless I'm eating out, I don't even need to think about it. (I will stipulate that I am dealing only with some kind of intolerance, not celiac, which I understand requires a whole different level of care.)

[Jenny in Florida]

33 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

We have a cow who has weirdly shaped hooves. If we don't keep them trimmed, she can't walk well or graze well. She can get really pitiful and slowly would starve if we weren't taking care of her. She'll be culled this year, which is much more humane in my opinion than simply allowing her to slowly starve. 

But are those the only options?

[Corraleno]

43 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I actually think that if cattle were raised on pasture, rather than grain/soy fed, things would adjust. I really think that the ecological problems with animal agriculture would be solved if we raised animals (pigs, chickens, beef) the way that nature meant them to be raised. On GRASS. Yes, it would be expensive, which would mean that many would end up eating less meat, which would help with other issues. Factory farming is a terrible thing. 

In addition to being terrible for the animals, feeding them cheap subsidized corn & soy is also terrible for human health, because it replaces the anti-inflammatory Omega 3s that are naturally found in grass-fed animals with pro-inflammatory Omega 6s, which contribute to so many of the health problems associated with the standard American diet. Not to mention the effects of all the antibiotics and growth hormones...

 

43 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Another thing that I think is missing in the equation though is the fact that there are few natural predators in our world. Deer are a huge problem in many areas because older hunters are dying and young people are hunting less. Animals like deer can really cause major damage to crops if they were left unchecked with no predators. Those animals don't stop reproducing even if nobody is harvesting. And I really don't think that anyone wants to return to the days when wolves and cougars roamed in numbers large enough to keep grazing herds in check. 

I actually agree with this. A wild animal that has lived a natural life and is killed quickly with a clean shot for meat... I think that can be a natural part of the circle of life. My dad grew up on a small family farm; they got their milk from a cow that ate grass, eggs and meat from their chickens that foraged during the day and slept in a large coop at night, and they would raise a piglet every year for meat. All their animals lived a fairly normal life (albeit generally short) and were quickly killed and processed right there at home. I don't have any objection to that. But food production in the US is so far from that now. 

And I think the argument that it's too expensive to produce food any other way is looking at the problem from the wrong side. The fact workers are paid so poorly that they can only afford to eat meat and dairy from tortured animals, and produce full of chemicals, and processed "food" that is barely food — and then can't afford the medical care needed to fix all the problems caused by that cheap, non-nutritious food — is the flip side of the same coin. Both of those need to be fixed.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Corraleno

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

But are those the only options?

It's stressful and painful to have her feet trimmed often. And genetic defects are often passed on to offspring, so we could end up with multiple animals with this painful condition.

[Selkie]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm actually looking up some research on this now, because I'm a dork, lol and like research. But most of what I'm finding takes people eating a standard western diet of processed food and compares that to whole foods plant based, or whole foods low carb, or whole foods paleo, and I gotta wonder if it is the cutting out processed crap, and adding in nutritious whole foods, not the vegan/keto/wahtever part. 

If anyone knows of studies comparing a whole foods low carb diet to whole foods plant based diet, I'd like to see it! I would LIKE to be vegetarian again, it just doesn't seem to work for me. Add in we are also gluten free now and ugh. 

Currently I eat mostly whole foods, lots of veggies, some meat, some fruit, some sweet potato, some oats, some dairy, some (pastured) eggs. Which may be the best of both worlds, or may be worse than either extreme, who knows?

I would suggest reading How Not to Die by Dr. Michael Greger. He combed through thousands upon thousands of studies and compiled the information, and tells you not only what not to eat, but also what you should be eating. It's a pretty fascinating book and will be right up your alley if you like research and are interested in learning about optimal nutrition. He's also got a free Daily Dozen app that I have found to be very helpful for staying on track.

There are chapters on How Not to Die From: Heart disease, lung diseases, brain diseases, digestive cancers, infections, diabetes, high blood pressure, liver diseases, blood cancers, kidney disease, breast cancer, suicidal depression, prostate cancer, Parkinson's Disease, and iatrogenic causes.

As someone mentioned earlier, all of the proceeds of his work go to charity. 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I would suggest reading How Not to Die by Dr. Michael Greger. He combed through thousands upon thousands of studies and compiled the information, and tells you not only what not to eat, but also what you should be eating. It's a pretty fascinating book and will be right up your alley if you like research and are interested in learning about optimal nutrition. He's also got a free Daily Dozen app that I have found to be very helpful for staying on track.

There are chapters on How Not to Die From: Heart disease, lung diseases, brain diseases, digestive cancers, infections, diabetes, high blood pressure, liver diseases, blood cancers, kidney disease, breast cancer, suicidal depression, prostate cancer, Parkinson's Disease, and iatrogenic causes.

As someone mentioned earlier, all of the proceeds of his work go to charity. 

 

 

 

But again, is he comparing his way of eating to a standard, processed, western diet, or to a whole foods paleo style, or Mediterranean or?

This article was one I just found, casting some doubt over some of his assertions (not all).

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

Edited November 30, 2020 by ktgrok

[Selkie]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

But again, is he comparing his way of eating to a standard, processed, western diet, or to a whole foods paleo style, or?

 

He doesn't actually do studies himself, he goes through piles and piles of existing studies and compiles the results. 

The conclusion of the many studies in the book is that animal protein is harmful - doesn't matter if someone is eating whole foods paleo or McDonalds chicken nuggets or free range or grass fed or whatever. No matter how healthy the rest of a person's diet is, if they are eating meat, milk, or eggs, it is causing damage to their body.

 

[Sneezyone]

Oh Lord the Dr. Oz of diets.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

He doesn't actually do studies himself, he goes through piles and piles of existing studies and compiles the results. 

The conclusion of the many studies in the book is that animal protein is harmful - doesn't matter if someone is eating whole foods paleo or McDonalds chicken nuggets or free range or grass fed or whatever. No matter how healthy the rest of a person's diet is, if they are eating meat, milk, or eggs, it is causing damage to their body.

 

Sorry, forgot to post the link - again it doesn't look like it is quite as clear cut as he makes it. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

[rebcoola]

Curious about peoples thought on eating insects and insect farms?  We really enjoy the insect products we have had.  Unfortunately not a lot is readily available.

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Oh Lord the Dr. Oz of diets.

No idea why you would say that, as it makes no sense. He's basically a nutrition nerd who loves to dig into research. As the saying goes, don't shoot the messenger.

[Selkie]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Sorry, forgot to post the link - again it doesn't look like it is quite as clear cut as he makes it. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review#TOC_TITLE_HDR_4

I would suggest reading the book for yourself. A lot of people like to dismiss it because they don't like finding out that their favorite foods are not as healthy as they have been led to believe.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

I would suggest reading the book for yourself. A lot of people like to dismiss it because they don't like finding out that their favorite foods are not as healthy as they have been led to believe.

Well, sure, but that won't change wether or not he has misrepresented the evidence, which is what the article was about. 

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Selkie said:

No idea why you would say that, as it makes no sense. He's basically a nutrition nerd who loves to dig into research. As the saying goes, don't shoot the messenger.

Because he hasn’t actually done any research for himself and is selectively reporting other people’s findings. This is a common tactic in get rich quick circles. Tony Robbins comes to mind. I happen to disbelieve, on principle, anyone who thinks they alone can solve the mysteries of the universe. Things are rarely that simple.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Selkie]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Because he hasn’t actually done any research for himself and is selectively reporting other people’s findings. This is a common tactic in get rich quick circles. Tony Robbins comes to mind. I happen to disbelieve, on principle, anyone who thinks they alone can solve the mysteries of the universe. Things are rarely that simple.

Get rich quick? I believe it's been mentioned twice already in this thread, but all his proceeds go to charity.

[ktgrok]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Because he hasn’t actually done any research for himself and is selectively reporting other people’s findings. This is a common tactic in get rich quick circles. Tony Robbins comes to mind. I happen to disbelieve, on principle, anyone who thinks they alone can solve the mysteries of the universe. Things are rarely that simple.

Tony Robbins was who I immediately though of when you said that...his book was the one that got me to vegan from vegetarian. I felt very betrayed later to realize how hand picked and wrong some of his arguments were. 

Had he stuck with the animal rights aspect, I would take him more seriously. But I felt flat out lied to by him and others. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

Get rich quick? I believe it's been mentioned twice already in this thread, but all his proceeds go to charity.

The tactic is common in get rich quick circles, yes. Book proceeds go to charity. Not speaking/appearance fees and other ancillary benefits which is where the real money is. SMH. 

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Selkie said:

because they don't like finding out that their favorite foods are not as healthy as they have been led to believe.

For the record, my favorite food is the potato, with cream in any form (sour cream, whipped cream, ice cream, etc) a close second. Chocolate ties with smoked fish (the good way my dad makes it with fish he caught himself that day, not the crap you buy at the store) for third.

I ate very happily as a vegetarian for a decade. Taste wasn't the problem. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have no opinion on what others find helpful or tasty or healthy.

 

On the Christian side of things that was brought up:  It is (Biblically) lawful for me to not only eat "meat sacrificed to idols" but to eat meat itself.

On the Daily Dozen side of things.  It would be a Daily Ten for me.  I cannot eat grains (not just gluten) and I cannot eat beans/legumes/pulses.  Or rather I should not.  My sugars go way way up if I do.  I do treat myself to both (not at the same time) about once a month but I pay for it. 

[Selkie]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The tactic is common in get rich quick circles, yes. Book proceeds go to charity. Not speaking/appearance fees and other ancillary benefits which is where the real money is. SMH. 

All proceeds from his books, speaking engagements, and DVDs go to charity.

[Sneezyone]

Listen, it’s not my intent to drag down your hero but this is simply not true. There is most definitely a profit motive.
 

“Does Dr. Greger make any money off of this site?

Dr. Greger now draws a salary from NutritionFacts.org as Research Director. So when you support NutritionFacts.org, part of your donation goes to putting kale on his table. All proceeds Dr. Greger receives from his book, speaking engagements and DVDs is split between NutritionFacts.org and a donor advised charitable fund from which Dr. Greger distributes to amazing nonprofits that are translating evidence-based nutrition into policy, like Balanced and the Physicians Association for Nutrition.”

Do you know what his salary is?

For FY 2019 it was 198K.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Selkie]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, sure, but that won't change wether or not he has misrepresented the evidence, which is what the article was about. 

Well, there are 132 pages of teeny tiny print in the back of the book listing the studies he went through. I think it would be difficult to write an entire book misrepresenting thousands upon thousands of studies.

 

[Selkie]

12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

For the record, my favorite food is the potato, with cream in any form (sour cream, whipped cream, ice cream, etc) a close second. Chocolate ties with smoked fish (the good way my dad makes it with fish he caught himself that day, not the crap you buy at the store) for third.

I ate very happily as a vegetarian for a decade. Taste wasn't the problem. 

I wasn't talking about you when I said people dismiss the book, I was speaking generally.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Well, there are 132 pages of teeny tiny print in the back of the book listing the studies he went through. I think it would be difficult to write an entire book misrepresenting thousands upon thousands of studies.

 

Did you read the article I linked? He says that some of it is very true, some of it is misrepresented. And has links to the studies. 

[ktgrok]

So far, this is the first thing I've found comparing a vegetarian diet to a whole foods mediterranean diet. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20180226/Diets-compared-head-on-Mediterranean-diet-vs-Vegetarian-diet.aspx

[Selkie]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Listen, it’s not my intent to drag down your hero but this is simply not true. There is most definitely a profit motive.
 

“Does Dr. Greger make any money off of this site?

Dr. Greger now draws a salary from NutritionFacts.org as Research Director. So when you support NutritionFacts.org, part of your donation goes to putting kale on his table. All proceeds Dr. Greger receives from his book, speaking engagements and DVDs is split between NutritionFacts.org and a donor advised charitable fund from which Dr. Greger distributes to amazing nonprofits that are translating evidence-based nutrition into policy, like Balanced and the Physicians Association for Nutrition.”

Do you know what his salary is?

Seriously? Yeah, I'm sure Dr. Greger is swimming in Rolls Royces, mansions, and yachts because of his nutrionfacts.org salary.

[Selkie]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Did you read the article I linked? He says that some of it is very true, some of it is misrepresented. And has links to the studies. 

I did read it. My point is that given the sheer volume of studies cited in the book, I doubt he could misrepresent on that large of a scale.

Look, read it or not, whatever. You asked for nutritional studies, which happen to be an interest of mine, so I offered you a source, and one that has been very beneficial to me and my family and lots of other people I know.

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Seriously? Yeah, I'm sure Dr. Greger is swimming in Rolls Royces, mansions, and yachts because of his nutrionfacts.org salary.

$200K/year in salary alone isn’t chump change and he’s been drawing over 180K since at least 2016, the first year I checked. IJS. In the interest of truth, he is not a penniless evangelist. ETA: I imagine a Tesla Model X would be more on brand. 🤣

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

It's stressful and painful to have her feet trimmed often. And genetic defects are often passed on to offspring, so we could end up with multiple animals with this painful condition.

I actually meant that my inclination could be to simply care for her as I would any other being in need who crossed my path.

[ktgrok]

24 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I did read it. My point is that given the sheer volume of studies cited in the book, I doubt he could misrepresent on that large of a scale.

Look, read it or not, whatever. You asked for nutritional studies, which happen to be an interest of mine, so I offered you a source, and one that has been very beneficial to me and my family and lots of other people I know.

Well, I'd rather read the studies directly - maybe he has links on the website. 

[ktgrok]

Looking recently at Dr. Berg's videos (who I also think is mostly a salesman at heart and has some Dr. Oz tendencies) and he is very much a proponent of a keto diet - but he advises 7 - 10 cups of veggies a day. That type of a diet is going to have a lot more in common with a whole foods type diet than it does with a standard diet but that never seems to be studied. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

$200K/year in salary alone isn’t chump change and he’s been drawing over 180K since at least 2016, the first year I checked. IJS. In the interest of truth, he is not a penniless evangelist. ETA: I imagine a Tesla Model X would be more on brand. 🤣

He takes a salary of 200K (which is a normal salary for an M.D. and probably less than he made as a practioner) out of total revenue of over 2 million, and his organization has a 100% rating on Charity Navigator. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Corraleno

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just musing aloud here for myself because I am always looking for new ways to tweak my diet or have a “diet challenge “.

I could do a Daily Ten challenge.

I already get one serving of berries a day.

I don’t do three servings of other fruit. Sometimes I do one serving but it tends to shoot my blood sugars up. Three servings would put me over the top, I think. 

I eat a serving (or more) of cruciferous vegetables a day already. 
 

I eat one or two servings of greens a day already  

I eat two servings of other vegetables a day already  

I am not currently eating flaxseeds or linseeds .  I wonder if I should?

 I eat one or two servings of nuts and seeds a day  

I eat curcumin daily and other herbs and spices  

I drink more than five glasses of water 

I exercise daily already  

**So writing this out, I guess that I am already doing the daily nine.  Flaxseed is the only thing that I am not doing  

 

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Just musing aloud here for myself because I am always looking for new ways to tweak my diet or have a “diet challenge “.

I could do a Daily Ten challenge.

I already get one serving of berries a day.

I don’t do three servings of other fruit. Sometimes I do one serving but it tends to shoot my blood sugars up. Three servings would put me over the top, I think. 

I eat a serving (or more) of cruciferous vegetables a day already. 
 

I eat one or two servings of greens a day already  

I eat two servings of other vegetables a day already  

I am not currently eating flaxseeds or linseeds .  I wonder if I should?

 I eat one or two servings of nuts and seeds a day  

I eat curcumin daily and other herbs and spices  

I drink more than five glasses of water 

I exercise daily already  

**So writing this out, I guess that I am already doing the daily nine.  Flaxseed is the only thing that I am not doing  

 

I'm similar - I get at least one or two servings of greens a day (ok..most days...some days I eat more cruciferous and less greens or vice versa just for convenience when I'm running low on one or the other, but it averages out to at least on of both most days), I eat veggies at every meal, but with bariatric surgery volume is an issue, so not sure I get a full two servings of other veggies, but I do eat other veggies daily - usually a mix of red and green and orange peppers, vidalia and red onion, mushrooms, zuchinni or eggplant, tomatoes, carrots, parsnips, etc. I eat one serving of nuts, sometimes two (assuming servings are small - I usually have 0.5 oz per serving - a blend of walnuts, pecans, and pepitas usually), I usually have a serving of berries daily drink 48 oz of water plus tea, etc, and exercise daily. I don't usually have much more fruit, for similar reasons - spikes my blood sugar. I can have about half an small/medium apple,if it is with some nut butter or other protein. More than that spikes appetite. Or I might put just a few grapes cut up in a salad or something. But most of my fruit is various berries. 

I don't currently take curcumin, I did, but didn't see really any difference in my pain which was why I was taking it. I don't do flax seed but that's because I have to be careful with it or it gives me digestive issues. My understanding is that whole it isn't digested, and ground it acts as a laxative with me - but man i LOVE flaxseed crackers. I just think they probably come out how they go in, lol. 

I have started using chia seeds now and then - in yogurt or on a salad, etc. And in store bought Kombucha. LOVE LOVE LOVE that stuff - I'm a sensory person and that is heaven.

But anyway, I think from a health standpoint, everyone would do better if eating lots of plants, including greens, berries, etc, became the standard. It's probably less important if those veggies come with a side of meat or a side of beans, than that you are eating them at all, and not eating mcdonalds and take out pizza. 

From an ethical point of view, factory farming is really bad. Beyond that, I see various standpoints.  

For satisfaction and enjoyment, what kills the typical plant based diet idea for me is the low fat thing. I tried pritikin way back when and was miserable. It felt unnatural and I got dry skin, etc. And the food sucked, lol. I'd give up meat and be happy and satisfied, but not olive oil, coconut oil, butter, etc. Popcorn with no oil or butter is an abomination, lol. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Chia seeds gave me terrible stomach pains.  Terrible.  As in I briefly thought that I was dying, it was so bad! 

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

In the interest of truth, he is not a penniless evangelist. ETA: I imagine a Tesla Model X would be more on brand. 🤣

This isn't the first time I've seen a Nirvana fallacy crop up in this thread.

(Another was the assertion that since feeding human beings will never require zero resources, it doesn't matter whether using resources in a less efficient way to raise meat instead of plant products for human consumption. Even though no one had made the of course ridiculous claim that feeding people would ever require zero resources.)

The fact that this person isn't "a penniless evangelist," which no one recommending the book said he was, doesn't logically refute the facts raised about how the profits from his book sales, speaking events, etc., are distributed. 

For the record, by the way, this book was recommended to me by two of my physicians -- different areas of specialization in different practices. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

33 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

For satisfaction and enjoyment, what kills the typical plant based diet idea for me is the low fat thing. I tried pritikin way back when and was miserable. It felt unnatural and I got dry skin, etc. And the food sucked, lol. I'd give up meat and be happy and satisfied, but not olive oil, coconut oil, butter, etc. Popcorn with no oil or butter is an abomination, lol. 

Olive oil and coconut oil are both plant based. I use olive oil, canola oil and sesame oil regularly.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

He takes a salary of 200K (which is a normal salary for an M.D. and probably less than he made as a practioner) out of total revenue of over 2 million, and his organization has a 100% rating on Charity Navigator. 

I’m not begrudging anyone making money off of their ideas. The statement was that all proceeds go to charity. They don’t. Full stop.

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

This isn't the first time I've seen a Nirvana fallacy crop up in this thread.

(Another was the assertion that since feeding human beings will never require zero resources, it doesn't matter whether using resources in a less efficient way to raise meat instead of plant products for human consumption. Even though no one had made the of course ridiculous claim that feeding people would ever require zero resources.)

The fact that this person isn't "a penniless evangelist," which no one recommending the book said he was, doesn't logically refute the facts raised about how the profits from his book sales, speaking events, etc., are distributed. 

For the record, by the way, this book was recommended to me by two of my physicians -- different areas of specialization in different practices. 

I am certainly not seeking nirvana. As I said MULTIPLE times, I seek balance. I do not believe the consumption of meat is a moral/ethnical/religious issue. I think the care and keeping of the WHOLE planet is. If this whole COVID episode has taught us anything, it’s that all ‘medical professionals’ are not created equal. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

55 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Chia seeds gave me terrible stomach pains.  Terrible.  As in I briefly thought that I was dying, it was so bad! 

That's me and ground flax. 

25 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Olive oil and coconut oil are both plant based. I use olive oil, canola oil and sesame oil regularly.

Yes, but it seems most of the plant based diets that claim all sorts of health benefits are also supposed to be very low fat. 

[Jenny in Florida]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m not begrudging anyone making money off of their ideas. The statement was that all proceeds go to charity. They don’t. Full stop.

It might be more accurate to say that net proceeds -- after expenses including a reasonable salary for the creator/facilitator -- are split between two non-profit organizations that support nutrition-focused organizations.

And, you know, I still find that pretty cool.

Despite the multiple recommendations, I haven't gotten around to reading the book yet. Now I kind of want to go buy a copy.

Oh, I looked it up, and it seems like $198,000 per year is actually way on the low end of a typical salary for a physician. One handy visual is available here.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

It might be more accurate to say that net proceeds -- after expenses including a reasonable salary for the creator/facilitator -- are split between two non-profit organizations that support nutrition-focused organizations.

And, you know, I still find that pretty cool.

Despite the multiple recommendations, I haven't gotten around to reading the book yet. Now I kind of want to go buy a copy.

Oh, I looked it up, and it seems like $198,000 per year is actually way on the low end of a typical salary for a physician. One handy visual is available here.

He’s not practicing medicine whatever his training. He’s a non-profit CEO. I don’t even know why we’re having this conversation. You believe his claims are accurate, I’m skeptical. N’uff said. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Jenny in Florida]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I am certainly not seeking nirvana. As I said MULTIPLE times, I seek balance. I do not believe the consumption of meat is a moral/ethnical/religious issue. I think the care and keeping of the WHOLE planet is. If this whole COVID episode has taught us anything, it’s that all ‘medical professionals’ are not created equal. 

"Nirvana fallacy" is the name of a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an argument by pointing out the ways it would not lead to a perfect outcome. The implication is that, since things wouldn't be perfect, anyway, then there's no point trying to improve anything.

I'd also argue that this isn't an either/or situation in which we somehow have to choose between the welfare of animals, the health and wellbeing of humans and the care and keeping of the whole planet. Everything I've ever read convinces me that all of those things are inextricably linked.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Jenny in Florida said:

"Nirvana fallacy" is the name of a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an argument by pointing out the ways it would not lead to a perfect outcome. The implication is that, since things wouldn't be perfect, anyway, then there's no point trying to improve anything.

I'd also argue that this isn't an either/or situation in which we somehow have to choose between the welfare of animals, the health and wellbeing of humans and the care and keeping of the whole planet. Everything I've ever read convinces me that all of those things are inextricably linked.

Which.... kindly...doesn’t apply AT ALL to what I said since I have repeatedly and vociferously said that I not only support more enlightened forms of animal husbandry but increased veggie consumption. You’ve fixated on my preference to eat tasty items, which include meat, to the exclusion of all else and decided that means there is no common ground to be had. I find most diet hawkers to be charlatans and profiteers but that doesn’t mean I don’t see wisdom in the biblical admonitions on moderation and good stewardship. 

[Jenny in Florida]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That's me and ground flax. 

Yes, but it seems most of the plant based diets that claim all sorts of health benefits are also supposed to be very low fat. 

As I said, I haven't read How Not to Die yet, but the doctors who've been advising me and recommending the book (as well as the nutrition specialist who worked with us during the recent wellness program I did with my radiation oncologist) have been emphasizing "healthy fats," not "low fat." I think the ship has sailed on the idea that fat = bad. Like everything else, it's about balance and making better choices among the available options.

[Jenny in Florida]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Which.... kindly...doesn’t apply AT ALL to what I said since I have repeatedly and vociferously said that I not only support more enlightened forms of animal husbandry but increased veggie consumption. You’ve fixated on my preference to eat tasty items, which include meat, to the exclusion of all else and decided that means there is no common ground to be had. I find most diet hawkers to be charlatans and profiteers but that doesn’t mean I don’t see wisdom in the biblical admonitions on moderation and good stewardship. 

I was actually commenting on your assertion that Dr. Greger isn't a "penniless evangelist" as an apparent attempt to discredit him.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Jenny in Florida said:

I was actually commenting on your assertion that Dr. Greger isn't a "penniless evangelist" as an apparent attempt to discredit him.

That would be HYPERBOLE and was said in response to the suggestion that he was not profiting from his veggie evangelism. He is.

[Jenny in Florida]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

That would be HYPERBOLE and was said in response to the suggestion that he was not profiting from his veggie evangelism. He is.

Well, I didn't say it, but I believe the statement was that he was not running a "get rich quick" scheme.  Someone also said that all proceeds go to charity, which I agree is not entirely accurate. As I said, it would be more accurate to say that net proceeds (after the deduction of reasonable expenses including the salary of the organization's research director and probably other staff) go to a pair of non-profit organizations.

[ktgrok]

37 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

As I said, I haven't read How Not to Die yet, but the doctors who've been advising me and recommending the book (as well as the nutrition specialist who worked with us during the recent wellness program I did with my radiation oncologist) have been emphasizing "healthy fats," not "low fat." I think the ship has sailed on the idea that fat = bad. Like everything else, it's about balance and making better choices among the available options.

Gotcha - that makes more sense to me. More like mediterranean minus the fish/lean meat, than to the old pritikin zero oils, zero fats, use bean broth instead of oil idea. Furham is another one I think advises low/no fat/oils?