Thoughts on being a vegetarian.

[J-rap]

20 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

It helps me to realize that we are not currently living in the restored, whole Kingdom of God. I do believe in that time, many of our bodies will be able to be sustained on vegetarian/vegan diets. I'm like you, in that I NEED meat. I am not healthy or whole without meat. So I do the best I can. I raise animals, and produce as much as I can possibly produce here on the farm. And then I am at peace with the best that I can do. God knows that I'm trying to care for the earth as well as possible, and I am trying to stay healthy and functional. I won't beat myself up or feel guilty when I'm trying.

That about sums it up for me, too.

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I am not much of a meat-eater and I'm very pro humane treatment of every living thing.  I've gone stretches where my diet would be considered vegetarian, but I've never adopted the label.

I think we could make a lot of improvements in the meat industry without all going vegetarian.  I suppose it will never be enough for some people, but then nothing ever is.

As far as animals desiring to live ... my thought is that most farm animals would have never existed if it weren't for people wanting to eat animal products.  Maybe it's wrong to create these lives in the first place, or at least, wrong to do so in excess of what humans reasonably need for good health.  I guess we could get into a whole discussion about what lives are ethical to create in the first place.  And then there's the fact that every living organism is going to die one way or another.  Is it better to be sacrificed to the health of another organism, or to grow old, weak, toothless, and die a slow and painful "natural death"?  Would it be more ethical to leave it to carnivores in nature to do all the killing and eating?  I mean what are the real alternatives we are comparing?

I kind of like the old way of thanking the animal one is about to use to keep one's family alive.  I would like people to just be mindful of where their food is coming from ... not just the animals that died, but the humans who have worked various jobs to bring all food to our tables, the land that is being managed for better or worse, the economies that depend on sustainable food production, and so on.

Lots of interesting things to think about...

[Selkie]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I am not much of a meat-eater and I'm very pro humane treatment of every living thing.  I've gone stretches where my diet would be considered vegetarian, but I've never adopted the label.

I think we could make a lot of improvements in the meat industry without all going vegetarian.  I suppose it will never be enough for some people, but then nothing ever is.

As far as animals desiring to live ... my thought is that most farm animals would have never existed if it weren't for people wanting to eat animal products.  Maybe it's wrong to create these lives in the first place, or at least, wrong to do so in excess of what humans reasonably need for good health.  I guess we could get into a whole discussion about what lives are ethical to create in the first place.  And then there's the fact that every living organism is going to die one way or another.  Is it better to be sacrificed to the health of another organism, or to grow old, weak, toothless, and die a slow and painful "natural death"?  Would it be more ethical to leave it to carnivores in nature to do all the killing and eating?  I mean what are the real alternatives we are comparing?

I kind of like the old way of thanking the animal one is about to use to keep one's family alive.  I would like people to just be mindful of where their food is coming from ... not just the animals that died, but the humans who have worked various jobs to bring all food to our tables, the land that is being managed for better or worse, the economies that depend on sustainable food production, and so on.

The bolded part of your argument makes no sense. As you said just prior to the bolded, farm animals are only alive because there is demand for animal products. As that demand continues to decrease, it's not like there will suddenly be a bunch of elderly, infirm farm animals. Producers will adjust to decreased demand, which will mean fewer animals being born into lives of misery. This will most certainly be a positive thing, and not just for animal welfare. The environmental impact of that will be huge.

As someone who has lived with and cared for animals my entire life, I can say without a doubt that they would rather live a long life and die of old age than be slaughtered as youngsters, which is the fate of most farm animals. Their desire to stay alive is very strong, just like humans. When a young person dies, we don't say, "Oh how lucky that they didn't have to grow old". No one is saying that when young dogs or cats are euthanized at shelters, either. So why would you think it is any different for farm animals?

[SKL]

4 hours ago, Selkie said:

The bolded part of your argument makes no sense. As you said just prior to the bolded, farm animals are only alive because there is demand for animal products. As that demand continues to decrease, it's not like there will suddenly be a bunch of elderly, infirm farm animals. Producers will adjust to decreased demand, which will mean fewer animals being born into lives of misery. This will most certainly be a positive thing, and not just for animal welfare. The environmental impact of that will be huge.

As someone who has lived with and cared for animals my entire life, I can say without a doubt that they would rather live a long life and die of old age than be slaughtered as youngsters, which is the fate of most farm animals. Their desire to stay alive is very strong, just like humans. When a young person dies, we don't say, "Oh how lucky that they didn't have to grow old". No one is saying that when young dogs or cats are euthanized at shelters, either. So why would you think it is any different for farm animals?

I guess I can't say exactly what farm animals think about staying alive.  I've never been one.

There are plenty of times I wish I didn't have to live any more, but that is a whole other conversation ... maybe.

I was just pointing out a different perspective.  Some people thought it made sense.  🤷‍♀️

[Melissa in Australia]

I personally knew someone who was vegetarian for 20 years and during that time she had 11 children. She is now crippled with a type of arthritis caused by being vegetarian 

She was vegetarian not for humane to animals reasons, but because her church taught that God didn't want people to eat meat.... Even though God told people to eat meat after the flood. Funny how some churches cherry pick their scriptures to control their flock. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[MercyA]

36 minutes ago, SKL said:

I guess I can't say exactly what farm animals think about staying alive. 

If you've ever watched videos of animals being taken to slaughter and trying to escape...you will know what they think. 

[Jenny in Florida]

On the subject of health: Just as is true of every other one of the stories that has been shared here, my own story is just one person's experience. However, I will say that my oncologist, my radiologist and my endocrinologist have all advised a vegan/plant-based diet before I told them I had been following such a diet for decades. 

• My endocrinologist tells me that, based on controlling my insulin resistance through a combination of being really intentional about diet and losing weight, I am farther away from diabetes than I was when he first started treating me several years ago. (This is, apparently, somewhat unusual, since "success" typically just means slowing the inevitable, rather than reversing.) 
• At my most recent cardio appointment, I asked the doctor what I could be doing or not doing to improve my health. He said he had nothing to add, that I should just stick with the vegan diet, keep my weight down and keep exercising. 
• At my first appointment with the radiation oncologist, she gave us a big packet of information about the benefits of a vegan diet. I recently participated in an eight-week wellness program she is developing with some other health care providers that is designed to support people during and after cancer treatment. The backbone of the program's recommendations is transitioning to a plant-based (ideally vegan) diet. 

So, just another data point that will hopefully help balance out the horror stories of "someone that someone knows" who had something disastrous happen as a result of being a vegan.

[MercyA]

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

There are plenty of times I wish I didn't have to live any more, but that is a whole other conversation ... maybe.

Hey, girl, if you want to talk, we are here. 

[MercyA]

Okay, here's the thing. Being vegan-except-for-eggs absolutely had some health benefits for me. Before the diet, I had been taking probably 16+ ibuprofen a day for the first day or two of my period, every month, and the pain and nausea still left me non-functional. During and even for some time after the diet, I could take a normal amount of ibuprofen and go about my day. The change was amazing. Also, I was the lightest I'd been since high school, without any calorie counting. 

Now, it is clear to me that I need some animal protein at the moment. I get anemic and spacy without it. Iron supplements alone don't seem to cut it. I can't eat a ton of beans (oxalate = kidney stones) or nuts (oxalate = kidney stones and calories = weight!) for protein.

BUT--now that I am not a vegetarian, I know that not all the animal foods I eat are for iron and protein. I eat some (a lot?) because they taste good and are filling. And there is no reason for that. There are plenty of tasty, filling food options that don't require killing or causing suffering to sentient beings. 

So I need to figure out how I can eat a minimal amount of animal-derived food, not just throw my hands up in the air and say, "Whelp, I tried." 

In some ways it seems easier to have a hard line in the sand.

Bring on the lab-grown meat! 

Edited November 29, 2020 by MercyA

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Bring on the lab-grown meat! 

I am VERY excited about lab-grown meat. I love meat. I really do. I miss it when I don't eat it, and frankly, I do take bites of other people's meat even now, because I miss it a lot. (And I am generally a foodie. I like food a lot, and cutting meat out of my diet definitely decreases my joy in it.) 

Anyway, I'm with you. I hope they figure that out 😉 . 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Selkie]

16 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

On the subject of health: Just as is true of every other one of the stories that has been shared here, my own story is just one person's experience. However, I will say that my oncologist, my radiologist and my endocrinologist have all advised a vegan/plant-based diet before I told them I had been following such a diet for decades. 

• My endocrinologist tells me that, based on controlling my insulin resistance through a combination of being really intentional about diet and losing weight, I am farther away from diabetes than I was when he first started treating me several years ago. (This is, apparently, somewhat unusual, since "success" typically just means slowing the inevitable, rather than reversing.) 
• At my most recent cardio appointment, I asked the doctor what I could be doing or not doing to improve my health. He said he had nothing to add, that I should just stick with the vegan diet, keep my weight down and keep exercising. 
• At my first appointment with the radiation oncologist, she gave us a big packet of information about the benefits of a vegan diet. I recently participated in an eight-week wellness program she is developing with some other health care providers that is designed to support people during and after cancer treatment. The backbone of the program's recommendations is transitioning to a plant-based (ideally vegan) diet. 

So, just another data point that will hopefully help balance out the horror stories of "someone that someone knows" who had something disastrous happen as a result of being a vegan.

Here are a few more data points:

I am in several whole food plant based Facebook groups and every day there are people posting about how they were able to reverse serious health problems like diabetes and heart disease by eating plants. It's pretty cool.

At his last physical, the doctor asked my dh, "How is it that you have the heart rate and blood pressure of an elite athlete? What are you doing to make that happen?" Dh told him, "I only eat plants!"🙂 (Dh is 54 y.o. and while he does exercise, it is not anywhere near the level of an elite athlete!)

Dh's friend (mid 50s) recently had major heart problems and had to have surgery at the Cleveland Clinic. As part of his recovery, he was instructed to follow a plant based diet.

[Corraleno]

I've never heard of a "type of arthritis caused by a vegetarian diet." Personally, I've seen a significant improvement in arthritis symptoms since I stopped eating meat, and even more since I greatly reduced dairy. I've spent the last week stripping wallpaper, spackling, sanding, priming, and painting walls & ceilings, and a year ago I could barely hold a mug of tea without pain.

The thing is, there's just as much variation in vegetarian and even vegan diets as there is in non-vegetarian diets. If someone eats a not-very-nutritious standard western diet and simply drops the meat, they're not going to be any healthier than someone on the same diet who does eat meat, because that's just not a very healthy diet to begin with. And I think that's where a lot of the stories of "my friend tried to be vegan but she got really sick" come from. If breakfast is a donut and coffee, lunch is vegan cheese on white bread with a bag of chips and a coke, and dinner is a big bowl of white pasta with a bit of broccoli and maybe some iceberg lettuce on the side with bottled dressing, yeah, that's probably going to make you feel worse than if you had sausage and eggs for breakfast, some ham on that sandwich, and some chicken in the pasta.

OTOH, if breakfast is vanilla-maple steelcut oats topped with toasted pecans and dried cranberries; lunch is a Mexican quinoa salad with black beans, tomatoes, peppers, green onions, roasted corn, pumpkin seeds, and avocado; mid afternoon snack is a green smoothie; and dinner is a vegetable curry with roasted cauliflower, sweet potatoes, chickpeas, kale, and coconut milk, served with brown basmati, that is much healthier than a standard American meat-based diet. Of course you could also throw some yogurt on the oatmeal, sprinkle some cheese on the quinoa salad, and add some chicken to the curry, and it would still be healthier than a standard American diet. But, at least for me (and from what I've read and heard, for a significant number of other vegans and vegetarians), once you have all those other flavors and colors and textures in your diet, you really don't miss the meat. Meat is a quick, easy, and often cheap way to add flavor to a meal. Cutting back on meat kind of forces you to add more healthy vegetables and legumes to your diet and to learn how to use herbs and spices to flavor things. Or at least it does if you stick with it long enough. I think probably the biggest reason people who go vegetarian or vegan for a while give it up* is because they don't change their diet beyond just eliminating animal products, so they always feel like they're "missing something." 

*(I do realize that there are people who can't tolerate legumes or whole grains, or can't have a lot of fiber, or can't get enough iron without meat, or whatever. But most of the people I've known who went vegetarian for a while and then quit — including myself when I was younger — gave it up because they just dropped the meat without changing the overall diet.)

Edited November 29, 2020 by Corraleno

[itsheresomewhere]

39 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I've never heard of a "type of arthritis caused by a vegetarian diet." Personally, I've seen a significant improvement in arthritis symptoms since I stopped eating meat, and even more since I greatly reduced dairy. I've spent the last week stripping wallpaper, spackling, sanding, priming, and painting walls & ceilings, and a year ago I could barely hold a mug of tea without pain.

The thing is, there's just as much variation in vegetarian and even vegan diets as there is in non-vegetarian diets. If someone eats a not-very-nutritious standard western diet and simply drops the meat, they're not going to be any healthier than someone on the same diet who does eat meat, because that's just not a very healthy diet to begin with. And I think that's where a lot of the stories of "my friend tried to be vegan but she got really sick" come from. If breakfast is a donut and coffee, lunch is vegan cheese on white bread with a bag of chips and a coke, and dinner is a big bowl of white pasta with a bit of broccoli and maybe some iceberg lettuce on the side with bottled dressing, yeah, that's probably going to make you feel worse than if you had sausage and eggs for breakfast, some ham on that sandwich, and some chicken in the pasta.

OTOH, if breakfast is vanilla-maple steelcut oats topped with toasted pecans and dried cranberries; lunch is a Mexican quinoa salad with black beans, tomatoes, peppers, green onions, roasted corn, pumpkin seeds, and avocado; mid afternoon snack is a green smoothie; and dinner is a vegetable curry with roasted cauliflower, sweet potatoes, chickpeas, kale, and coconut milk, served with brown basmati, that is much healthier than a standard American meat-based diet. Of course you could also throw some yogurt on the oatmeal, sprinkle some cheese on the quinoa salad, and add some chicken to the curry, and it would still be healthier than a standard American diet. But, at least for me (and from what I've read and heard, for a significant number of other vegans and vegetarians), once you have all those other flavors and colors and textures in your diet, you really don't miss the meat. Meat is a quick, easy, and often cheap way to add flavor to a meal. Cutting back on meat kind of forces you to add more healthy vegetables and legumes to your diet and to learn how to use herbs and spices to flavor things. Or at least it does if you stick with it long enough. I think probably the biggest reason people who go vegetarian or vegan for a while give it up* is because they don't change their diet beyond just eliminating animal products, so they always feel like they're "missing something." 

*(I do realize that there are people who can't tolerate legumes or whole grains, or can't have a lot of fiber, or can't get enough iron without meat, or whatever. But most of the people I've known who went vegetarian for a while and then quit — including myself when I was younger — gave it up because they just dropped the meat without changing the overall diet.)

I am one whose arthritis actually got worse along with a few other health issues trying a more vegetarian based diet and a lot  less carbs.  It was beyond painful and I was miserable.  I did develop over time a lot of issues to beans, legumes, and more.  The diet was just too much for my body. 
 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I've never heard of a "type of arthritis caused by a vegetarian diet." Personally, I've seen a significant improvement in arthritis symptoms since I stopped eating meat, and even more since I greatly reduced dairy. I've spent the last week stripping wallpaper, spackling, sanding, priming, and painting walls & ceilings, and a year ago I could barely hold a mug of tea without pain.

The thing is, there's just as much variation in vegetarian and even vegan diets as there is in non-vegetarian diets. If someone eats a not-very-nutritious standard western diet and simply drops the meat, they're not going to be any healthier than someone on the same diet who does eat meat, because that's just not a very healthy diet to begin with. And I think that's where a lot of the stories of "my friend tried to be vegan but she got really sick" come from. If breakfast is a donut and coffee, lunch is vegan cheese on white bread with a bag of chips and a coke, and dinner is a big bowl of white pasta with a bit of broccoli and maybe some iceberg lettuce on the side with bottled dressing, yeah, that's probably going to make you feel worse than if you had sausage and eggs for breakfast, some ham on that sandwich, and some chicken in the pasta.

OTOH, if breakfast is vanilla-maple steelcut oats topped with toasted pecans and dried cranberries; lunch is a Mexican quinoa salad with black beans, tomatoes, peppers, green onions, roasted corn, pumpkin seeds, and avocado; mid afternoon snack is a green smoothie; and dinner is a vegetable curry with roasted cauliflower, sweet potatoes, chickpeas, kale, and coconut milk, served with brown basmati, that is much healthier than a standard American meat-based diet. Of course you could also throw some yogurt on the oatmeal, sprinkle some cheese on the quinoa salad, and add some chicken to the curry, and it would still be healthier than a standard American diet. But, at least for me (and from what I've read and heard, for a significant number of other vegans and vegetarians), once you have all those other flavors and colors and textures in your diet, you really don't miss the meat. Meat is a quick, easy, and often cheap way to add flavor to a meal. Cutting back on meat kind of forces you to add more healthy vegetables and legumes to your diet and to learn how to use herbs and spices to flavor things. Or at least it does if you stick with it long enough. I think probably the biggest reason people who go vegetarian or vegan for a while give it up* is because they don't change their diet beyond just eliminating animal products, so they always feel like they're "missing something." 

*(I do realize that there are people who can't tolerate legumes or whole grains, or can't have a lot of fiber, or can't get enough iron without meat, or whatever. But most of the people I've known who went vegetarian for a while and then quit — including myself when I was younger — gave it up because they just dropped the meat without changing the overall diet.)

I don’t think that anyone is saying that vegetarian diets are bad. (Or if someone did, I skimmed too quickly and missed it). What I said is that it can be bad for some people. What percentage that would be might be a very small percentage. I have no problem with people finding the best diet for them. For me, that seems to include some meat in small quantities. My blood sugars actually don’t respond well to non-animal proteins and I need protein to keep my sugars stable. Because I don’t eat large quantities of meat, I tend to get organic, free range type meat that I assume might be more humanely raised as well as not having added hormones and antibiotics. 

[Sneezyone]

I am not, nor will I ever be, a vegan or vegetarian but I subscribe to a vegan-friendly meal service and get about 9 meals/mo. The spice levels in the recipes are woefully inadequate for my taste buds but I’m loving the ideas and my DD is eating all of my leftovers!!! 🤦🏽‍♀️ I also feel better with more veg and whole grains in my diet first thing in the morning. I care mostly about flavor and buy slow growth or aged meat/poultry products for the same reason—they taste better.  It’s ok and perfectly reasonable to value the flavor, texture, and presentation of your food. Not sure why that’s controversial. Anyone here signing up for a crunchy kibble diet? There are super tasters, texture-sensitive eaters, ideological consumers, and those who can’t smell/taste anything. They’re obv. not going to view food the same way. I have no philosophical or health objections to a vegetarian or vegan diet. I’m simply more of a ‘do what works for you so long as it doesn’t harm other people’ person so take that FWIW. It’s not a value judgment. It’s not a salvation issue. It’s a biological need and personal preference one.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I've never heard of a "type of arthritis caused by a vegetarian diet."

I haven't either, and I'm very interested in finding out what type of arthritis the person has. My rheumatologist (I have RA) recommends a vegetarian diet that contains very little processed food. He says it's the way of eating that most of his patients report the best results from.

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don’t think that anyone is saying that vegetarian diets are bad. (Or if someone did, I skimmed too quickly and missed it). What I said is that it can be bad for some people. What percentage that would be might be a very small percentage. I have no problem with people finding the best diet for them. For me, that seems to include some meat in small quantities. My blood sugars actually don’t respond well to non-animal proteins and I need protein to keep my sugars stable. Because I don’t eat large quantities of meat, I tend to get organic, free range type meat that I assume might be more humanely raised as well as not having added hormones and antibiotics. 

@Melissa in Australiasaid that the person she knows had crippling arthritis that was caused by being a long term vegetarian. Not worsened by that way of eating. Caused by it. That's what got my attention. I wholeheartedly believe that different people can have the same health condition that can respond better/worse/not at all to various ways of eating. But that's a different thing than saying a particular way of eating caused the person to develop the problem. I don't pretend to be an expert on the various types of arthritis (there are, after all, around a hundred types of arthritis and related conditions), but I am somewhat knowledgeable, and I've never heard of food as a known trigger for developing any of them (except, possibly--gout?). And I'm not being snarky, I'm truly curious about what type it is. Of course individual doctors say stupid, untrue things all the time and some patients believe them (BTDT sometimes myself). So that could explain it.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Pawz4me

[Soror]

I feel best when I eat the most fresh, whole food. I have worked on cutting down my consumption of animal products and have cut back considerably (and have been veg and veg*n at times). It has gotten much easier to eat less the more I get used to it. I found the data from the longest lived populations the most convincing and none of them consume much meat and many don't consume much animal products (the Greeks being the exception). I sleep better with a higher carb diet. I did low carb and very low carb diet for years and from what I've read do not feel it good at all for my thyroid disease (and I developed thyroid disease after that stint of low carb). I like the Daily Dozen app to keep me focused on nutrient dense food. I don't want to just focus on veg diet but on food that is nutrient dense. I can have all kinds of candy and processed foods and junk that are veg but them being veg doesn't make them healthy.

eta: I do think that what exact diet works best for someone is individual and I think we'll see that more in the coming years as we learn more about genetics but I don't think the SAD diet or one heavy with processed foods is healthy for anyone. Some may do ok in spite of it but that doesn't make it good.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Soror

[Laura Corin]

We rarely buy supermarket meat any longer. We order from suppliers of grass-fed meat. For chickens we buy organic because the certification requires more space for the birds. Our fish come on an ice van from the coast half an hour away.

To afford all that we eat less meat, probably two meals a week of meat and smaller portions, and two of fish. We rarely eat out. I'm usually vegetarian until the evening meal. I eat a lot of beans and nuts. I use oat milk,  as increased oats seem to have brought my cholesterol down. Whole foods almost exclusively. 

If I lived on my own, I'd probably be pescatarian.

[Joker]

I gravitate more toward eating vegetarian most of the time but my body needs red meat. I’m actually going out for a burger today because I realized last night I couldn’t remember the last time I had any. I was trying to figure out why I felt off and dizzy the last few days and it always takes me time because of the brain fog to remember all it means is I need a burger. I take daily supplements but it’s just not enough. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

On 11/28/2020 at 4:47 AM, BaseballandHockey said:

I am not vegetarian, although I think it's the ethical thing to do from an environmental perspective.  

I would love to know where in the Bible he's getting this interpretation.  It seems kind of out of character for how God behaves in the Bible in general, but maybe i'm wrong.  To be clear, I'm not saying that being vegetarian isn't Biblical.  I think that being vegetarian during our current environmental crisis is absolutely in keeping with being stewards of the Earth.  But in the Old Testament, God gives many many instructions related to eating meat, which to me implies that He is OK with it.  And while I know that God recognizes that people sin, and forgives people's sin, I can't think of another place where He goes into great detail on how to do things He doesn't approve of.  Having said that, I'm not very Biblically literate, so maybe I'm wrong. 

 

Gen 9:1-6. In the original creation story God says he gives many every herb or the field for food (I think around Gen 1 or 2 but after the flood he expands that to include eating living animals.  
 

I have heard this around as well though I’m unsure.  There’s also the Daniel story about the kings meat where the kings meat has been offered to idols but Daniel and the friends refuse to eat it and eat pulses instead and are healthier than everyone else.  Personally I think that was meant to be interpreted as a miraculous intervention not actually saying that the pulse diet was inherently healthier but for a while there was a Daniel challenge diet going around that some people did. 

[Ausmumof3]

I have pretty mixed kind of views on this.  Biblically I think it was allowed but there are ideals around treating animals well.  
 

As far as how many animals actually get slaughtered I’m not sure that eating vegan or vegetarian makes much sense in Australia because most wheat, grain, pulse farming requires culling of native and feral animals on a fairly large scale just to protect the crops.  
 

As far as how animals get treated I think the factory farm model of the modern age is a pretty horrific invention.  In fact I think basically farming in general is complicated.  When you hunt the animal knows you’re the enemy in a sense, whereas when you farm you treat the animal as a friend right up to the day you don’t.

I find the concept of lab grown meat really weird and creepy.  I would try to figure out how to manage a balanced vegan diet before going there.

I also think the environmental concern is a lot more complicated than most vegans make out.  There are certainly drawbacks environmentally to the factory farm model.  But there are chunks of land in many parts of the world where growing plant based food doesn’t work but animal foods do.  Traditional owners here and in other parts of the world have had meat as a part of their diet for years without doing damage.  On the other hand running cows here for a while definitely was hard on the ground.  Sheep have been a lot easier but natives like kangaroos etc are far better.  However even they breed up to numbers where they do damage, partly because no one is hunting them for food anymore, partly because of the way we’ve modified the food supply.  I think the bigger environment issue is maybe monoculture (if that’s the right word?)  growing huge amounts of just a few kinds of crops.  

One thing we’ve tried to do where we are is ensure that when we need to cull feral animals we use whatever we can for food either for ourselves and friends or for dogs etc.  
 

and speaking of dogs our world is basically set up to need some carnivores.  Without some animals eating the prey animals they overrun things, eat everything and starve themselves to death.  So I guess while I think things are out of balance with the way we produce and eat meat and the sheer number of humans there are doing that, I don’t think it’s necessarily true that the right balance is no one ever eating meat at all.  

[SKL]

As far as some people needing meat ... I think it's probably true, or, not exactly a "need," but an "if you can, do" kind of thing.

We have a family story we like to laugh about.  A few years ago, we drove to NYC for my daughter's birthday, partly to see a show on Broadway.  It took us so long to get through the traffic that we were rushing to the show with starving kids.  My eldest eats little, but when she's hungry, she's hangry.  We passed some street vendors and I offered to buy her something, but she kept yelling "NO!  I WANT MEAT!"  Every so often she just really needs to eat meat.  Same kid also will not touch a bean or nut with a 10-foot pole.

I remember reading Gandhi's autobiography.  There was a part where his son, around age 11? was very ill.  His doctor strongly recommended giving him meat broth to strengthen him.  Gandhi had very rigid ideas about diet at the time, eating only fruit and nuts, and he didn't want his family eating meat.  He gave his son the choice, but the son went along with his dad.  Later, Gandhi said that he was wrong to refuse to give his son meat broth under the circumstances.

I am a strong believer that everyone is different and has different needs.  I know for sure that there are people who can live a healthy life without eating animal products.  I probably am one.  But I won't go so far as to say that for every human.

I also think it's a rare human who really does not use any products, services, or conveniences that involve the death or harm of another creature.  I'm not saying we shouldn't care about animals because we can't prevent all harm, but we should expand our mindfulness in many areas rather than get rigid about a narrow area.

[Pam in CT]

re dialing back rather than turning off consumption of animal flesh

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

We rarely buy supermarket meat any longer. We order from suppliers of grass-fed meat. For chickens we buy organic because the certification requires more space for the birds. Our fish come on an ice van from the coast half an hour away.

To afford all that we eat less meat, probably two meals a week of meat and smaller portions, and two of fish. We rarely eat out. I'm usually vegetarian until the evening meal. I eat a lot of beans and nuts. I use oat milk,  as increased oats seem to have brought my cholesterol down. Whole foods almost exclusively. 

If I lived on my own, I'd probably be pescatarian.

This is me and my husband (we do a bit more meat when my carnivore son is home, which he currently is).

My youngest (now almost 18) has been vegetarian (not vegan, though she did a trial for ~6 months or so) since she was 7 years old. For a while figuring out the cooking side was hard, and then it got easier, and by now it's automatic pilot.  I certainly *could* do it in terms of either lifestyle or health; I just like the taste of fish, I find chicken immensely easy and flexible to cook with, I adore the occasional lamb roast or good burger.

For me the issue isn't a absolute matter of ethics or hard view on sustainability -- more a tradeoff of degree. Better is better.

[MercyA]

Here's the thing, though. I have come to believe that some animals should have personhood status--that they should have the right (as far as it is possible) to self-determination. They shouldn't be forced to entertain, or to participate in experiments on their bodies, or to live in tiny spaces--or be forced to die. I believe they are "people" in the sense that they feel just about all the emotions we do--jealousy, fear, guilt, joy, contentment, and on and on. They love their families. They have friends. They play. They solve problems. I would like to see personhood rights granted to primates and cetaceans at the very least.

But, then...what makes a cow that much different than a chimp, or a dolphin? Perhaps they're not quite as smart, not as adept at solving problems. So what? They have much the same emotions and attachments. They are still self-aware. They still feel pain.

So, why do I say, I need iron, so you, cow, must die for it, when I would never do that to a dog, or a cat, or a gorilla? It does not seem right to me.

Edited November 29, 2020 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

51 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re dialing back rather than turning off consumption of animal flesh

This is me and my husband (we do a bit more meat when my carnivore son is home, which he currently is).

My youngest (now almost 18) has been vegetarian (not vegan, though she did a trial for ~6 months or so) since she was 7 years old. For a while figuring out the cooking side was hard, and then it got easier, and by now it's automatic pilot.  I certainly *could* do it in terms of either lifestyle or health; I just like the taste of fish, I find chicken immensely easy and flexible to cook with, I adore the occasional lamb roast or good burger.

For me the issue isn't a absolute matter of ethics or hard view on sustainability -- more a tradeoff of degree. Better is better.

Tastier products often have the added benefit of being environmentally/ethically preferable. My previous acupuncturist called it ‘slow food’—Things that take longer to cultivate, mature, and/or cook. They also tend to be more costly as a result.

Eating in ways that match your ethical and health needs/preferences is a privilege. A pound of chicken from my distributor is $4-5/lb. vs. $1-2/lb. for factory farmed birds. My preferred meat market sells grass fed, pastured beef for $8-12/lb. vs. $3-4/lb. for factory farmed cattle. Adding more veggies, as Laura Corin said, can help offset this expense but not entirely. Ethically farmed, sustainable produce is also costly. We don’t pay enough attention to who is harmed/exploited to produce cheap rice, veg and legumes. Our bodies, our planet are designed to work in harmony. We have, by design, predators and prey, producers and consumers, omnivores, herbivores, and carnivores. It seems to me that we are most out of whack when we allow any of those to dominate.

I shop several different grocers b/c most local stores don’t sell as many varieties of greens and veggies as I like either. There’s only one small grocer, for ex., that stocks Gai Lan. I miss the farmers markets we had in Bahrain with stall after stall of cheap (subsidized) fruits, veggies and herbs and a few with fresh chicken and duck eggs. Market day loot fresh enough to last two weeks. Sigh. This is privilege talking.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Jenny in Florida]

8 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Here's the thing, though. I have come to believe that some animals should have personhood status--that they should have the right (as far as it is possible) to self-determination. They shouldn't be forced to entertain, or to participate in experiments on their bodies, or to live in tiny spaces--or be forced to die. I believe they are "people" in the sense that they feel just about all the emotions we do--jealousy, fear, guilt, joy, contentment, and on and on. They love their families. They have friends. They play. They solve problems. I would like to see personhood rights granted to primates and cetaceans at the very least.

But, then...what makes a cow that much different than a chimp, or a dolphin? Perhaps they're not quite as smart, not as adept at solving problems. So what? They have much the same emotions and attachments. They are still self-aware. They still feel pain.

So, why do I say, I need iron, so you, cow, must die for it, when I would never do that to a dog, or a cat, or a gorilla? It does not seem right to me.

I could not agree more. That's the realization I came to the day I realized that it made no sense to be horrified at the idea of eating my cat while being perfectly content to chow down on a burger for dinner that evening.

One of my favorite movie quotes of all time (from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home😞“My compassion for someone is not limited to my estimation of their intelligence.”

[MercyA]

I was an ovo-vegetarian (very, very strictly) for about three years, I think. And then I stopped when I was trying to conceive and while I was pregnant and never went totally back. 

It didn't seem that difficult at the time. I think one of the reasons I didn't feel hungry on the diet is because I also was not eating any white flour or refined sugar. Refined carbs = cravings for me.

Wow, @Sneezyone, that is some beautiful produce!!! 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I was an ovo-vegetarian (very, very strictly) for about three years, I think. And then I stopped when I was trying to conceive and while I was pregnant and never went totally back. 

It didn't seem that difficult at the time. I think one of the reasons I didn't feel hungry on the diet is because I also was not eating any white flour or refined sugar. Refined carbs = cravings for me.

Wow, @Sneezyone, that is some beautiful produce!!! 

IKR! This was the payoff for living with 120+ degree heat for four-five months a year. The “1.00” you see was one Bahraini dinar, approx. $2.65 USD, so one head of cauliflower was $2.65. For $15 I had plenty for our family of four. Meat, on the other hand, was VERY pricey.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

So, why do I say, I need iron, so you, cow, must die for it, when I would never do that to a dog, or a cat, or a gorilla? It does not seem right to me.

I love my dog but I don't have any objection to dogs as food,  so long as they  are well treated before death. I don't fancy dog meat personally, but don’t consider it immoral.  I think that's consistent with my position on cows and pigs. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Here's the thing, though. I have come to believe that some animals should have personhood status--that they should have the right (as far as it is possible) to self-determination. They shouldn't be forced to entertain, or to participate in experiments on their bodies, or to live in tiny spaces--or be forced to die. I believe they are "people" in the sense that they feel just about all the emotions we do--jealousy, fear, guilt, joy, contentment, and on and on. They love their families. They have friends. They play. They solve problems. I would like to see personhood rights granted to primates and cetaceans at the very least.

But, then...what makes a cow that much different than a chimp, or a dolphin? Perhaps they're not quite as smart, not as adept at solving problems. So what? They have much the same emotions and attachments. They are still self-aware. They still feel pain.

So, why do I say, I need iron, so you, cow, must die for it, when I would never do that to a dog, or a cat, or a gorilla? It does not seem right to me.

You've never had to decide whether to butcher a cat or let your child starve.  Those of us with the luxury to choose from various options should always remember there are many who don't have that luxury.

Historically, in India (and probably some other places), only the lowest caste / class was supposed to eat meat.  The stigma on eating meat allowed folks born into higher castes to feel superior.  We need to be careful of that human tendency when we assign moral values to practical life choices.  It's one thing if everyone on the planet is able and educated enough to avoid a thing without harming themselves or their families.

As far as whether animals deserve personhood status ... essentially that is the opinion of some religions.  I really don't have an opinion on it personally.  I think life is precious and shouldn't be taken lightly.  But it is also unquestionable that some lives depend on the destruction of other lives.  Are humans to be exempt from that cycle?  Maybe it is a nice personal goal, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes precious lives are still going to be lost.

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

I love my dog but I don't have any objection to dogs as food,  so long as they  are well treated before death. I don't fancy dog meat personally, but don’t consider it immoral.  I think that's consistent with my position on cows and pigs. 

I can absolutely respect (and simply disagree with) a consistent position.

Edited to add: I want to make really clear, by the way, that I am not invested in browbeating anyone else into being a vegetarian or vegan. Like many other very personal decisions I have made about my own life, I value my right to make such decisions far too much to think it's appropriate to try and impose my own beliefs or opinions on anyone else. I have the right and obligation to make my own choices, and I believe others have the same.

I'd be a big old hypocrite if I believed (or behaved) otherwise.

Truthfully, unless I am directly asked or the topic comes up naturally in conversation, I rarely talk about my veganism anymore, and when I do I try to keep it as matter-of-fact and brief as possible. I am participating in this thread because the title and initial post were a direct invitation to do so. And I hope that I have managed to phrase all of my comments to reflect my intention to share and discuss without trying to "convince." That's not my job.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Jenny in Florida

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I can absolutely respect (and simply disagree with) a consistent position.

Edited to add: I want to make really clear, by the way, that I am not invested in browbeating anyone else into being a vegetarian or vegan. Like many other very personal decisions I have made about my own life, I value my right to make such decisions far too much to think it's appropriate to try and impose my own beliefs or opinions on anyone else. I have the right and obligation to make my own choices, and I believe others have the same.

I'd be a big old hypocrite if I believed (or behaved) otherwise.

Truthfully, unless I am directly asked or the topic comes up naturally in conversation, I rarely talk about my veganism anymore, and when I do I try to keep it as matter-of-fact and brief as possible. I am participating in this thread because the title and initial post were a direct invitation to do so. And I hope that I have managed to phrase all of my comments to reflect my intention to share and discuss without trying to "convince." That's not my job.

I totally get this perspective. Those who can make these choices get no special scorn from me. I just think it’s funny in the sense that none of us would be here but for the willingness of our forebears to eat off cuts and animal products, from bear and kangaroo and alligator to snout, feet, intestines and brains. We are all the beneficiaries of modern education and farming tactics that aren’t without trade offs. I just think that the trade offs and reality of diets worldwide deserve a bit more recognition.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Jenny in Florida]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I totally get this perspective. Those who can make these choices get no special scorn from me. I just think it’s funny j the sense that none of us would be here but for the willingness of our forebears to eat off cuts and animal products, from bear and kangaroo and alligator to snout, feet, intestines and brains. We are all the beneficiaries of modern education and farming tactics that aren’t without trade offs.

Well, I don't know about you, but my forebears did lots of things--sometimes in the name of survival or because they were understood to be necessary in the context of the times and places in which they lived--that I don't feel great about including in my life now. Times and people evolve and are capable of making new choices in different situations.

[Sneezyone]

30 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Well, I don't know about you, but my forebears did lots of things--sometimes in the name of survival or because they were understood to be necessary in the context of the times and places in which they lived--that I don't feel great about including in my life now. Times and people evolve and are capable of making new choices in different situations.

As I said, I have made a variety of dietary choices but I do, still, enjoy heritage foods. They make me feel closer to both my live family and forebears. YMMV. I don’t feel especially superior b/c I can afford to eat what I like and not what I must.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sneezyone

[MercyA]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

You've never had to decide whether to butcher a cat or let your child starve.  Those of us with the luxury to choose from various options should always remember there are many who don't have that luxury.

Historically, in India (and probably some other places), only the lowest caste / class was supposed to eat meat.  The stigma on eating meat allowed folks born into higher castes to feel superior.  We need to be careful of that human tendency when we assign moral values to practical life choices.  It's one thing if everyone on the planet is able and educated enough to avoid a thing without harming themselves or their families.

As far as whether animals deserve personhood status ... essentially that is the opinion of some religions.  I really don't have an opinion on it personally.  I think life is precious and shouldn't be taken lightly.  But it is also unquestionable that some lives depend on the destruction of other lives.  Are humans to be exempt from that cycle?  Maybe it is a nice personal goal, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes precious lives are still going to be lost.

True, I've never had to make the choice between butchering a cat or letting my child starve. But, really, that has nothing to do with whether I can, right now, choose a diet that causes less suffering to others. 

It seems to be that in almost every discussion about this particular choice, someone (general someone, not picking on you, SKL) warns against vegetarians/vegans feeling "superior" or "better than." I can't speak for anyone else, but when I made that choice in the past, and if I make it again in the future, it didn't and won't have anything to do with feeling superior, but rather everything to do with living in line with my own values.

Do some religions want personhood status for non-human animals? I wasn't aware; that's very interesting. It is just very clear to me that my dog is her own little "person," and my canary is her own "person," and the more I read and learn, the more I am convinced that that is the case for many or most creatures on this earth. I have seen fish in an aquarium, even, show concern for their comrades. Once they dashed around my tank in an absolute panic until I counted them, was baffled to find one missing, and eventually found him stuck under a rock and freed him, after which they all calmed down. Another fish once stayed faithfully by a dying friend's side (and no, they did not eat each other after death). 

Absolutely there are carnivores in the wild who must kill, but that doesn't mean I must do the same. Yes, lives are lost every day, but I don't have to be the cause of it. 

J-rap, I appreciate the discussion!

Edited November 30, 2020 by MercyA

[KungFuPanda]

23 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

 

and speaking of dogs our world is basically set up to need some carnivores.  Without some animals eating the prey animals they overrun things, eat everything and starve themselves to death.  So I guess while I think things are out of balance with the way we produce and eat meat and the sheer number of humans there are doing that, I don’t think it’s necessarily true that the right balance is no one ever eating meat at all.  

I know that I’m my neighborhood it would benefit the local ecosystem if more people ate venison. The deer population is a real problem and we’ve removed all of their predators. 
 

A lot of times when I see people go on restrictive diets and see health improvements, an argument can be made that it was the weight loss that gave them the health boost. Sometimes people don’t explore a wide variety of vegetables until they eliminate meat. In these cases, it seems more like making meat and cheese the center of your diet is the real problem. You could give them a supporting role and see many of the same benefits. Environmentally, I’m guessing it would make a bigger impact if 10 families did meatless Monday than if one family goes vegan. It’s certainly an easier sell and a gateway to more meatless days. There are people out there who NEVER make a vegetarian dinner. Getting these people to see veggies as a complete meal would be an accomplishment. It would be a rare medical scenario for someone to NEED meat at every meal. 
 

 

[ktgrok]

47 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

It’s certainly an easier sell and a gateway to more meatless days. There are people out there who NEVER make a vegetarian dinner. Getting these people to see veggies as a complete meal would be an accomplishment. It would be a rare medical scenario for someone to NEED meat at every meal. 
 

True, but there are a lot of people with insulin issues who do need a fair amount of protein at each meal and not many carbohydrates. 

But in general, people eat way too few veggies. A big salad for a meal, be that with some chicken or some beans, along with nuts, etc is going to be way healthier than the standard american diet. 

[Sneezyone]

11 hours ago, MercyA said:

True, I've never had to make the choice between butchering a cat or letting my child starve. But, really, that has nothing to do with whether I can, right now, choose a diet that causes less suffering to others. 

It seems to be that in almost every discussion about this particular choice, someone (general someone, not picking on you, SKL) warns against vegetarians/vegans feeling "superior" or "better than." I can't speak for anyone else, but when I made that choice in the past, and if I make it again in the future, it didn't and won't have anything to do with feeling superior, but rather everything to do with living in line with my own values.

Do some religions want personhood status for non-human animals? I wasn't aware; that's very interesting. It is just very clear to me that my dog is her own little "person," and my canary is her own "person," and the more I read and learn, the more I am convinced that that is the case for many or most creatures on this earth. I have seen fish in an aquarium, even, show concern for their comrades. Once they dashed around my tank in an absolute panic until I counted them, was baffled to find one missing, and eventually found him stuck under a rock and freed him, after which they all calmed down. Another fish once stayed faithfully by a dying friend's side (and no, they did not eat each other after death). 

Absolutely there are carnivores in the wild who must kill, but that doesn't mean I must do the same. Yes, lives are lost every day, but I don't have to be the cause of it. 

J-rap, I appreciate the discussion!

The thing is that those values often don’t extend to the people growing and harvesting veggies/grains and the resources required, including land and chemicals, to make that dietary option viable. It’s not as if a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet doesn’t have costs too. To do less harm, you’d have to purchase only certified organic produce which is, indeed, costly. Every human doesn’t need to be a carnivore/omnivore but having no human meat eaters would also cause harm. Rather than stressing over meat/no meat, veg/no veg...I’ve been reading more about regenerative agriculture which seems to stress balance and symbiosis. This is something that makes a lot more sense to me. I don’t interpret my faith’s requirement of good earthly stewardship as not harming anything or anyone tho. Responsible stewardship, to me, means taking only what you need/must, consuming everything you take, and replenishing that which you remove. That, obv. shapes my view.

[Jenny in Florida]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

True, but there are a lot of people with insulin issues who do need a fair amount of protein at each meal and not many carbohydrates.

Again, a data point of one, here, but I was diagnosed with insulin resistance a few years ago during a time when I was already vegan but eating too much junk. My endocrinologist gave me a ton of information about the benefits of a plant-based diet. I got my act more together and started eating more carefully -- still vegan, but making better choices. My sugar levels came into line and have stayed there ever since, and my endocrinologist says I am now farther away fromi diabetes than I was when I was diagnosed.

So, I honestly can't speak to the idea that anyone "needs" meat (although, from my understanding of how nutrition works, I am skeptical), but insulin issues do not necessarily preclude being able to thrive on a vegan diet.

[Jenny in Florida]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The thing is that those values often don’t extend to the people growing and harvesting veggies/grains and the resources required, including land and chemicals, to make that dietary option viable. It’s not as if a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet doesn’t have costs too. To do less harm, you’d have to purchase only certified organic produce which is, indeed, costly. Every human doesn’t need to be a carnivore/omnivore but having no human meat eaters would also cause harm. Rather than stressing over meat/no meat, veg/no veg...I’ve been reading more about regenerative agriculture which seems to stress balance and symbiosis. This is something that makes a lot more sense to me. I don’t interpret my faith’s requirement of good earthly stewardship as not harming anything or anyone tho. Responsible stewardship, to me, means taking only what you need/must, consuming everything you take, and replenishing that which you remove. That, obv. shapes my view.

It's been a while since I read up on this stuff, since I have reached the stage at which I no longer feel the need to defend my choices. However, the last time I checked, it is actually much less resource- intensive to produce enough good quality calories for people focusing on plants than on raising animals for consumption.

If recent research refutes that point, I would be happy to read the info.

And if organic produce became the standard, prices would likely come down, making it more accessible to everyone.

Again, if there is credible research that says otherwise, I would be genuinely interested to see it.

[Laura Corin]

27 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The thing is that those values often don’t extend to the people growing and harvesting veggies/grains and the resources required, including land and chemicals, to make that dietary option viable. It’s not as if a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet doesn’t have costs too. To do less harm, you’d have to purchase only certified organic produce which is, indeed, costly. Every human doesn’t need to be a carnivore/omnivore but having no human meat eaters would also cause harm.

I thought that it took many more acres under cultivation to provide for animal food than to feed humans on plants. Is that not right?

If we all stopped eating animals, then we would lose the meat that is raised on hill farms and the like,  but wouldn't fields of soy feed people more efficiently if they weren't fed to cattle and turned into meat?

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

It's been a while since I read up on this stuff, since I have reached the stage at which I no longer feel the need to defend my choices. However, the last time I checked, it is actually much less resource- intensive to produce enough good quality calories for people focusing on plants than on raising animals for consumption.

If recent research refutes that point, I would be happy to read the info.

And if organic produce became the standard, prices would likely come down, making it more accessible to everyone.

Again, if there is credible research that says otherwise, I would be genuinely interested to see it.

Veggies may well be less resource intensive, that doesn’t mean zero, which was my point. There is no cost free option for feeding people. I’d be curious to know whether regenerative farming practices are compared with factory farming too. Modern agriculture, in general, in both produce and animals tends to be exploitative.

I like veggies but I also like to eat meat and don’t ascribe any value judgment to that choice other than personal preference. Thus, I too don’t feel the need to defend that stance. Suffice it to say that the vegan version of good quality calories, like seitan and tempeh and seeds/nuts (which my DS is allergic to), do not win rave reviews for taste or texture here so that would never be a satisfying everyday option for us.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

I thought that it took many more acres under cultivation to provide for animal food than to feed humans on plants. Is that not right?

If we all stopped eating animals, then we would lose the meat that is raised on hill farms and the like,  but wouldn't fields of soy feed people more efficiently if they weren't fed to cattle and turned into meat?

I don’t know. Maybe? As I said, my point was that vegetarian and vegan diets have costs too, not just in terms of land and chemicals but in terms of labor. Neither model is currently able to feed the world without the exploitation of resources. My personal feeling is that is because neither was ever intended to be used in isolation.

[SKL]

I do have a friend who is borderline for diabetes and she absolutely loathes veggies, even though she was raised in a mostly vegetarian culture.  At age 60+, her plan for trying to ward off diabetes is not gonna center around green leafies.  I'm not gonna say a word about animal rights as she works through this.  Most likely, over time, she will develop a taste for a moderate amount of veggies to go with her meat.

Is this a moral person?  You have to look at the whole picture.  This person has used much of her life helping others.  Have some chickens died in the process, yes.  Has she saved human lives?  Very probably.  I leave it to God to weigh it all up.

[fairfarmhand]

16 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I thought that it took many more acres under cultivation to provide for animal food than to feed humans on plants. Is that not right?

If we all stopped eating animals, then we would lose the meat that is raised on hill farms and the like,  but wouldn't fields of soy feed people more efficiently if they weren't fed to cattle and turned into meat?

I actually think that if cattle were raised on pasture, rather than grain/soy fed, things would adjust. I really think that the ecological problems with animal agriculture would be solved if we raised animals (pigs, chickens, beef) the way that nature meant them to be raised. On GRASS. Yes, it would be expensive, which would mean that many would end up eating less meat, which would help with other issues. Factory farming is a terrible thing. 

 

 

 

Another thing that I think is missing in the equation though is the fact that there are few natural predators in our world. Deer are a huge problem in many areas because older hunters are dying and young people are hunting less. Animals like deer can really cause major damage to crops if they were left unchecked with no predators. Those animals don't stop reproducing even if nobody is harvesting. And I really don't think that anyone wants to return to the days when wolves and cougars roamed in numbers large enough to keep grazing herds in check. 

 

The vision that I gather from the "we shouldn't eat meat" people is that there should be simply fields with wild-grazing creatures. Which sounds great on paper, but eventually the wild grazing creatures out pace the available food. And large animals can be really really pathetic for a long time before they die, which doesn't seem very compassionate to me.

We have a cow who has weirdly shaped hooves. If we don't keep them trimmed, she can't walk well or graze well. She can get really pitiful and slowly would starve if we weren't taking care of her. She'll be culled this year, which is much more humane in my opinion than simply allowing her to slowly starve. 

[ktgrok]

I'm actually looking up some research on this now, because I'm a dork, lol and like research. But most of what I'm finding takes people eating a standard western diet of processed food and compares that to whole foods plant based, or whole foods low carb, or whole foods paleo, and I gotta wonder if it is the cutting out processed crap, and adding in nutritious whole foods, not the vegan/keto/wahtever part. 

If anyone knows of studies comparing a whole foods low carb diet to whole foods plant based diet, I'd like to see it! I would LIKE to be vegetarian again, it just doesn't seem to work for me. Add in we are also gluten free now and ugh. 

Currently I eat mostly whole foods, lots of veggies, some meat, some fruit, some sweet potato, some oats, some dairy, some (pastured) eggs. Which may be the best of both worlds, or may be worse than either extreme, who knows?

Edited November 30, 2020 by ktgrok

[Carol in Cal.]

21 hours ago, SKL said:

You've never had to decide whether to butcher a cat or let your child starve.  Those of us with the luxury to choose from various options should always remember there are many who don't have that luxury.

Historically, in India (and probably some other places), only the lowest caste / class was supposed to eat meat.  The stigma on eating meat allowed folks born into higher castes to feel superior.  We need to be careful of that human tendency when we assign moral values to practical life choices.  It's one thing if everyone on the planet is able and educated enough to avoid a thing without harming themselves or their families.

As far as whether animals deserve personhood status ... essentially that is the opinion of some religions.  I really don't have an opinion on it personally.  I think life is precious and shouldn't be taken lightly.  But it is also unquestionable that some lives depend on the destruction of other lives.  Are humans to be exempt from that cycle?  Maybe it is a nice personal goal, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes precious lives are still going to be lost.

And Ironically enough, the high caste non-meat eaters in India get a great deal of their protein needs met by inadvertently consuming bugs that infiltrate their grains.  This was discovered when the diet did not transfer well to Great Britain, where the infiltration was more effectively prevented.

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm actually looking up some research on this now, because I'm a dork, lol and like research. But most of what I'm finding takes people eating a standard western diet of processed food and compares that to whole foods plant based, or whole foods low carb, or whole foods paleo, and I gotta wonder if it is the cutting out processed crap, and adding in nutritious whole foods, not the vegan/keto/wahtever part. 

If anyone knows of studies comparing a whole foods low carb diet to whole foods plant based diet, I'd like to see it! I would LIKE to be vegetarian again, it just doesn't seem to work for me. Add in we are also gluten free now and ugh. 

Currently I eat mostly whole foods, lots of veggies, some meat, some fruit, some sweet potato, some oats, some dairy, some (pastured) eggs. Which may be the best of both worlds, or may be worse than either extreme, who knows?

What's interesting is that also doesn't take into account other lifestyle choices. For instance, our family eats meat that we raise ourselves on pasture. We're also super active (hello, Farming!). We eat a lot of meat, but it's grass fed. I eat 2 eggs every day from my flock of hens who eat some grain, but also forage. When I have a cow in milk, we drink milk constantly, and I make cheese with it. 

My dh and I have "beautiful cholesterol" (the exact words of the doctor) 

We limit our sugars, seldom drinking soft drinks, and most of the food we eat is made at home.  So yes, anecdotes don't mean much, but despite my love of eggs and my dh's love of meat...we have great numbers. 

However, when we're between beef carcasses and I have to buy store meat, things start slowly changing. Our numbers are still okay but not in the "beautiful cholesterol" range. I think that feedlot raising affects the quality of the meat. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Personally, I think that there are any number of things that ought to be too sacred or precious to be messed with the way we mess with them.  And cows are fairly low on that list compared with:

Fracking—any modification of the earth that actually causes earthquakes is too much, IMO.

Big ancient trees—who really should be taking down a 2000 year old tree?  We should be stewards of such irreplaceable living things, not ‘owners/destroyers’.

Nuclear power—by all means, let’s concentrate highly toxic and potentially explosive materials and then use them briefly and then need to store the by products securely for centuries <end sarcasm>

Ocean predators—we have reason to mess with the food chain where we live, but doing so in the ocean is unnecessary and should be prevented.  No more shark fin for me.

Etc.

I see working on bettering the earth as a hierarchy, and it starts with not messing it up so badly in the first place.  That’s where I concentrate.