Talk to me about covid safety when you are seeing people indoors.

[Drama Llama]

We were on ultra lockdown for covid, and then loosened up a little bit in October.  Our loosened up version was still pretty locked down, but we added some things like neighborhood walks and bike rides, golf, routine medical appointments, and masked distanced outdoor playdates with a few neighborhood friends. 

The big thing we added though is that we started seeing DH's younger brother and his wife.  This is a big decision, because he works in a position that puts him in close contact with high risk groups.  He's not a health care worker, or a first responder, but his job probably has a similar level of risk.  However, after my son's death we all really felt the need to be with family, all of our family, and so they started coming over regularly.   We see them a few times a week, with everyone masked, and while we do spend time outside, we also spend a lot of time inside.  If we share a meal, we're either outside with them at a separate table, or they sit with us at the table, with their N95 masks on, and then take a plate to go.  When they're inside, we take some precautions.  They always wear N95's, wash hands as soon as they arrive and frequently thereafter, use a separate bathroom, and sit six feet apart.  But until today they've also been hugging people, and playing contact games with the kids, like wrestling and 1:1 basketball.  One reason we decided to allow the contact is that DH's grandfather, who is by far the highest risk person, was adamant that he wanted to see and hug his grandson.  If we'd said no, I think he would have started climbing in his window at night like the creepy mom from Love You Forever.  

But two things have changed.  One is that numbers are going up and up in our community.  The other is that my SIL, who is part of our pod, has announced that she's pregnant, moving her to a higher risk category.  And while Pop is pretty clear that he doesn't want us to sacrifice to protect him, he's fiercely protective of his great-grandchildren and 100% on board with covid precautions now.  

So, we're rethinking what contact with DH's brother should look like.  Going back to not seeing him at all would be really hard, I think, especially at the holidays.  But we're wondering what kind of precautions make sense if we do see him.  

What are other people with high risk family members doing?

 

[Garga]

This isn’t an answer tailored exactly to your situation, but here are some general guidelines for meeting inside:

Get an air purifier, as many as you need for the square footage-the Conway Airmega is a good one.

Put up the heat so you can crack open windows and maybe have a fan running to increase air flow.

At the same time, though, keep the humidity level in the house between 40 and 60% (virus doesn’t live as easily at those percentages.)  Might need a house humidifier.

Always wear masks.
 

Consider goggles for the eyes. Covid goes in through the eyes as well.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Garga

[Drama Llama]

Thanks!  We have a bunch of that stuff going on, but it's a good reminder.  

Can you tell me more about googles?  I assume they have to be on the person you're trying to protect, and not the person you're trying to protect them from?  Do the open ones that are more like sports glasses provide any protection?  

[catz]

Have you seen this article?

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

It has some really good examples of indoor covid transmission and how risks could be reduced.  

Using an air purifier, having a couple windows open, masking, distancing, eye protection can all help.  If you can be set up to just be outdoors, that is even better.  Keep get togethers to 60-90 minutes.  

Here is the info on eye protection and how that seemed to reduce odds of contracting covid.  If people are wearing glasses or you have sun glasses laying around kids could use, etc, I think that would be fine.  
https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-glasses-protection.html

[prairiewindmomma]

If Dh’s younger brother’s wife is not the one who is pregnant, I would maybe give up hugging younger brother’s family and run a HEPA filter in the room while they are there, but otherwise, no changes....

Pop seems to understand the risk. Let this be his decision about what to handle.

As to SIL, who I assume is on your side, I think if she asks you to do something or if she chooses to isolate, that’s her choice....but the precautions you are taking are also sufficient, imo.

[Pam in CT]

We haven't had indoors contact with anyone outside our immediate (2 parents, 3 kids) family since... July? when we last had eldest's serious-boyfriend in the house.

We were starting to have, and go to, outdoors patio dinners/ outdoor movie screenings and the like. Until recently.

And we were planning to have all of us, and extended family members, all test/ quarantine after testing, and meet in person for Thanksgiving. As of last night -- and because of both increasing cases, and longer intervals between tests and results due to vastly more people testing => backups in lab processing... we've called that off, sigh.

At this point, based on rising cases here, I don't expect to see anyone outside immediate family indoors until February.  And at 5.9% positivity we're doing better than all but 6 states in the country.  It's not good enough.

[Miss Tick]

I am so impressed at how many people in your extended and nuclear families are compliant with safety precautions. My family is all too far away for this to be a thing for us, but my county recently crossed over 10% positivity. Do while I don't have anything to add beyond what has been days, I'm reading along to find out how I should be behaving since clearly I won't learn much from my neighbors...

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

We haven't had indoors contact with anyone outside our immediate (2 parents, 3 kids) family since... July? when we last had eldest's serious-boyfriend in the house.

We were starting to have, and go to, outdoors patio dinners/ outdoor movie screenings and the like. Until recently.

And we were planning to have all of us, and extended family members, all test/ quarantine after testing, and meet in person for Thanksgiving. As of last night -- and because of both increasing cases, and longer intervals between tests and results due to vastly more people testing => backups in lab processing... we've called that off, sigh.

At this point, based on rising cases here, I don't expect to see anyone outside immediate family indoors until February.  And at 5.9% positivity we're doing better than all but 6 states in the country.  It's not good enough.

Our numbers are about the same as yours, and what you’re doing is probably what we should do.  I just have had enough missing someone we love for a lifetime.  

And as I write that I know it’s not an excuse.  Covid precautions have devastated our family, and I don’t want to contribute to that happening to someone else.  

 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If Dh’s younger brother’s wife is not the one who is pregnant, I would maybe give up hugging younger brother’s family and run a HEPA filter in the room while they are there, but otherwise, no changes....

Pop seems to understand the risk. Let this be his decision about what to handle.

As to SIL, who I assume is on your side, I think if she asks you to do something or if she chooses to isolate, that’s her choice....but the precautions you are taking are also sufficient, imo.

Two different SIL/BIL pairs.  My pregnant SIL lives with Pop, so that risk can’t be separated, and my kids are back and forth between the two houses constantly.  So we kind of all need to make the same choice.  

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Our numbers are about the same as yours, and what you’re doing is probably what we should do.  I just have had enough missing someone we love for a lifetime.  

And as I write that I know it’s not an excuse.  Covid precautions have devastated our family, and I don’t want to contribute to that happening to someone else.  

 

I don't think you are being reckless carefully seeing close family.  If the 90 year old wasn't involved, I might lean down on a different side, but he's already given up seeing this grandson for many months.  I don't think I could deny close family members to grief stricken family.  

You aren't being reckless.  

[easypeasy]

6 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

If we'd said no, I think he would have started climbing in his window at night like the creepy mom from Love You Forever. 

I have zero helpful suggestions for you, but this just made me laugh and laugh and laugh. 🤣 Covid has made us all do some crazy things - and now it could make Pop go all "creepy mom" climbing in windows to see his grandkids! I'm glad you had mercy on him and didn't drive poor Pop to those levels of madness! 😅

I love finding other people who agree on how creepy that mom was. {{shiver}} 😶

[Drama Llama]

8 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

I have zero helpful suggestions for you, but this just made me laugh and laugh and laugh. 🤣 Covid has made us all do some crazy things - and now it could make Pop go all "creepy mom" climbing in windows to see his grandkids! I'm glad you had mercy on him and didn't drive poor Pop to those levels of madness! 😅

I love finding other people who agree on how creepy that mom was. {{shiver}} 😶

Secretly, inside, I am that mom.  I have to keep reminding myself that it's creepy, because if I let my guard down, I could totally be her.  

 

[easypeasy]

18 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Secretly, inside, I am that mom.  I have to keep reminding myself that it's creepy, because if I let my guard down, I could totally be her.  

 

😂😂😂 That's even better! At least you see it in yourself and, therefore, are able to stifle those urges. 🤣

Did you ever see those suuuuper creepy Old Spice commercials with the moms??? My kids STILL shiver up and down whenever anyone mentions them!! Properly scarred them for life! Anyway - I'm 100% those commercials were based on the mom in that book. 😅

[wathe]

My thoughts on PPE for your situation:

How you wear your PPE matters more than the kind of PPE.

For your situation, standard pleated medical masks are likely non-inferior to N95, and maybe even superior.  1) N95 effectiveness depends on a proper fit.  The only way to determine proper fit is with a formal fit test. It is unlikely that all parties in your situation have been properly fit-tested, and it's very likely that their N95's "leak".  2) a properly fitting N95 is at best uncomfortable and at worst downright painful to wear for any length of time.  It is very likely that your people will touch/adjust/take breaks from their N95 at a much higher rate than they would with a standard pleated medical mask. In fact, I judge the probability of my own family being able to properly wear an n95 for more than half an hour at zero.  3)standard medical masks are actually pretty good (if worn properly).  HCW here wear N95 only for AGMP.  A standard medical mask is used for all other patient care, even for covid patients (province-wide).  Our HCW covid rates continue to be extremely low, and our hospital has had zero cases of covid in our patient-facing clinical staff, despite hundreds of hours of covid positive patient care provided.

Wearing mask properly = hand hygiene before donning, donning before contact with others, adjusting for good fit (snug up earloops to minimize gaps), and once donned do not touch or adjust at all, ever, not even a tiny bit  until time to doff, then hand hygiene before and after doffing.  

Eyewear matters less if everyone is properly masked at all times.  Eyewear does two things 1)prevents other people's respiratory droplets from landing on the mucous membranes of your eyes, thus infecting you, and 2) prevents you from touching your own eyes and contaminating yourself.  #1 is less of an issue if everyone is masked properly, because masking prevents most of the droplets from getting in the air in the first place.  #2 might be useful - but if the eyewear fogs, it might cause you to touch your face more to adjust, wipe glasses etc.

Goggles (CSA class 2b eye protection, fits snugly to face without gaps, has indirect vents, and has a strap - American standards are probably  similar to Canadian, but Canadian is what I know, so that's what I reference) are superior to safety glasses (CSA class 1a "spectacles with side-shields") for blocking droplets, but are way less comfortable and will almost certainly increase the frequency of breaking PPE protocol to touch/adjust/wipe condensation. Goggles are indicated for a HCW environment where the patients are not wearing a mask/yelling/confused/intoxicated/unco-operative (yay emergency dept) etc, but probably overkill for home when everyone is masked properly.  In your situation, if all parties are reliable, proper mask-wearers, I would probably skip eye protection altogether.  Maybe  regular glasses or lightweight comfy safety specs  - but they will fog and your peeps will likely fuss with them. Certainly not goggles.

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by wathe

[PeterPan]

The pregnant mom is also probably feeling some natural caution. You might just ask them what they want to do. Big room, give space. 

We usually have a party with dh's whole family around xmas, and I doubt we'll do it. Even if the governor's order is lifted by then, I think people are just generally being careful. Smaller groups in a large room. So 4 people, not 20. Have over one couple (2 people) at a time instead of 10, kwim? 

I think if gramps has said he wants to see people and is willing to be infected to see them, he needs to see people. 

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

 

I think if gramps has said he wants to see people and is willing to be infected to see them, he needs to see people. 

I think the issue is that gramps lives with pregnant SIL, and while gramps is willing to accept the risk to himself, he is not willing to risk SIL or her unborn baby (his great grandchild). And there is no way to separate those risks - if gramps is exposed, so is SIL and her baby. And pregnant women are definitely at higher risk. 

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The pregnant mom is also probably feeling some natural caution. You might just ask them what they want to do. Big room, give space. 

We usually have a party with dh's whole family around xmas, and I doubt we'll do it. Even if the governor's order is lifted by then, I think people are just generally being careful. Smaller groups in a large room. So 4 people, not 20. Have over one couple (2 people) at a time instead of 10, kwim? 

I think if gramps has said he wants to see people and is willing to be infected to see them, he needs to see people. 

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I think the issue is that gramps lives with pregnant SIL, and while gramps is willing to accept the risk to himself, he is not willing to risk SIL or her unborn baby (his great grandchild). And there is no way to separate those risks - if gramps is exposed, so is SIL and her baby. And pregnant women are definitely at higher risk. 

I think the best way to think about it is that we've got one household with 15 people who range in age from 2 months gestation to 90.  We don't all sleep in the same house, but we function that way.  Kids are back and forth between the three houses.  My kids have slept at all 3 houses in the past week.  Because no one in those three households is leaving for work or school, or going in stores, or going inside anywhere except to receive medical care, we're OK with treating us like a single family.  We don't wear masks with each other, we hug, we cuddle each other's kids, we share meals.  

There is a slightly increased risk, in that Pop is exposed to any germ that the pregnant woman might have picked up at the OBGYN, and she's exposed to whatever germs I brought back from my recent cardiology appointment.  But the risk is low, and this set up means that we get both the practical and emotional support we need. My kids have other kids to play with rather than being stuck with their grieving parents. They have a safe place to go if I'm at the doctor.  My SIL who is dealing with morning sickness, a job, and homeschooling 3 kids has reliable childcare.  My 20 year old niece, who is the childcare provider, has the emotional support she needs for her grief because she can go home to her parents at night.  

However, the downside of this is that the 15 of us can't make separate choices, because if one of us contracts the virus, the rest of us will go down like dominos.  If Pop hugs my BIL, and then cuddles with my 6 year old niece while she practices reading, and then my SiL tucks her in and kisses her goodnight, it's like my SiL hugged him herself.  If my 10 year old wrestles with his uncle, and then helps Pop make cookies, Pop's exposed.  So, we need to think of each other while we're making choices. 

And while Pop would love to hug this grandson, and see him unmasked, he also wants to see the rest of us.  And while he would risk his own safety for that hug, he's not going to risk losing another great-grandchild.  

[Ausmumof3]

https://time.com/5903992/indoor-socializing-coronavirus/?amp=true&__twitter_impression=true
 

I saw this today and it seems relevant.  The one suggestion I haven’t seen before is that if it’s too cold to open all the windows you should change which windows are open from time to time to avoid pockets of stale air.

[Drama Llama]

16 hours ago, easypeasy said:

😂😂😂 That's even better! At least you see it in yourself and, therefore, are able to stifle those urges. 🤣

Did you ever see those suuuuper creepy Old Spice commercials with the moms??? My kids STILL shiver up and down whenever anyone mentions them!! Properly scarred them for life! Anyway - I'm 100% those commercials were based on the mom in that book. 😅

I hadn't seen them, but googling "creepy old spice moms" led me straight to them. so thank you!  Now, I have some new behaviors to threaten my children with.  

[easypeasy]

31 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I hadn't seen them, but googling "creepy old spice moms" led me straight to them. so thank you!  Now, I have some new behaviors to threaten my children with.  

My son was in his tweens/early teens, I think, when these commercials hit. 

When he started dating a couple years later, he was honestly a little nervous... 😅😂

[Drama Llama]

14 hours ago, wathe said:

My thoughts on PPE for your situation:

How you wear your PPE matters more than the kind of PPE.

For your situation, standard pleated medical masks are likely non-inferior to N95, and maybe even superior.  1) N95 effectiveness depends on a proper fit.  The only way to determine proper fit is with a formal fit test. It is unlikely that all parties in your situation have been properly fit-tested, and it's very likely that their N95's "leak".  2) a properly fitting N95 is at best uncomfortable and at worst downright painful to wear for any length of time.  It is very likely that your people will touch/adjust/take breaks from their N95 at a much higher rate than they would with a standard pleated medical mask. In fact, I judge the probability of my own family being able to properly wear an n95 for more than half an hour at zero.  3)standard medical masks are actually pretty good (if worn properly).  HCW here wear N95 only for AGMP.  A standard medical mask is used for all other patient care, even for covid patients (province-wide).  Our HCW covid rates continue to be extremely low, and our hospital has had zero cases of covid in our patient-facing clinical staff, despite hundreds of hours of covid positive patient care provided.

Wearing mask properly = hand hygiene before donning, donning before contact with others, adjusting for good fit (snug up earloops to minimize gaps), and once donned do not touch or adjust at all, ever, not even a tiny bit  until time to doff, then hand hygiene before and after doffing.  

Eyewear matters less if everyone is properly masked at all times.  Eyewear does two things 1)prevents other people's respiratory droplets from landing on the mucous membranes of your eyes, thus infecting you, and 2) prevents you from touching your own eyes and contaminating yourself.  #1 is less of an issue if everyone is masked properly, because masking prevents most of the droplets from getting in the air in the first place.  #2 might be useful - but if the eyewear fogs, it might cause you to touch your face more to adjust, wipe glasses etc.

Goggles (CSA class 2b eye protection, fits snugly to face without gaps, has indirect vents, and has a strap - American standards are probably  similar to Canadian, but Canadian is what I know, so that's what I reference) are superior to safety glasses (CSA class 1a "spectacles with side-shields") for blocking droplets, but are way less comfortable and will almost certainly increase the frequency of breaking PPE protocol to touch/adjust/wipe condensation. Goggles are indicated for a HCW environment where the patients are not wearing a mask/yelling/confused/intoxicated/unco-operative (yay emergency dept) etc, but probably overkill for home when everyone is masked properly.  In your situation, if all parties are reliable, proper mask-wearers, I would probably skip eye protection altogether.  Maybe  regular glasses or lightweight comfy safety specs  - but they will fog and your peeps will likely fuss with them. Certainly not goggles.

 

Yeah, the PPE question is a big one, in my mind. 

Because we spent in the PICU during covid, with a kid who always had covid symptoms, and because we did a lot of aerosol generating procedures at home, I have had more conversations about this topic with more professionals that most people who are not HCW's.  

In our case, we're really only worried about transmission in one direction, which is from DH's brother and his wife, to the rest of us.  That sounds callous but they're way more likely to encounter it, because of DH's brother's work, than the rest of it, and if we're wrong and we do infect them, they'll probably be OK, given that they're in their 20's with no health issues.  

So, we have them wear the N95's.  One of them has a job related to construction, and has been fit tested.  The other works in healthcare, and although her current job is not one that requires any kind of PPE, she's had some experience in the past.  Will they be 100% perfect in how they use it?  Probably not, but it seems like it would decrease the likelihood of spreading it.  The rest of us wear Happy Masks, or disposable masks, depending on individual preference.

As far as goggles, I don't think they make sense in our circumstances.  We have lots of glasses wearers, including both of the highest risk people, so maybe that will help, but I think that if the people most likely to have the virus have N95's and are distancing, and we're doing lots of other things, that's just going to have to be enough.  

I should also add that we came into the pandemic with a huge quantity of N95's and the ability to fit test people, because of the specific nature of my FIL's business.  We donated a lot, but we kept some, because of our specific situation.