Hospitals capacity and Covid

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

 

I’m boggled by this. My son’s (girlfriend at the time) went straight into her nursing program (BSN) at 18. My daughter just went straight into her nursing program (RN). Same with one of her best friends and with another mock trial friend.  

In all sincerity, perhaps this is unique to the Midwest, but my daughter’s RN program is fully covered by a state non-income based grant. No expense and no wait. Both girls (DS’ gf and DD) got their CNAs beforehand - no wait. DD gets paid extremely well to be a CNA currently but they are never ending short staffed. (They pay $14.50 per hour but the bonuses vary from $50-$150 PER SHIFT currently during Covid, so it ends up working out to about $20-$30/hour dependent on which shift she picks up.) 

Now, it is a HARD job - cleaning and caring for I’ll and elderly, both physically and mentally. They have a high burnout rate. She was making $14 at Chic Fil A and never had to clean up urine, so not a lot of motivation for adults to do hard things. But, I admit I am surprised to hear of shortages of training!

 

I think CNA is not in the same category as other healthcare professionals because it is not a desirable, well compensated job. Many use it as a stepping stone, not as a final career. Having family in the Midwest, I do know that nursing programs are more plentiful than here on the west coast. Still, I have a niece who has been on a waiting list for two years for the local state tech school RN program.

Iowa is also one of the best states overall for the ratio of public school healthcare training slots to population, so you are likely getting a very skewed view of the reality in the rest of the country. Iowa generally does very well by its young people in terms of state funded educational opportunities. I know, I grew up there.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Frances

[BlsdMama]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Iowa is also one of the best states overall for the ratio of public school healthcare training slots to population, so you are likely getting a very skewed view of the reality in the rest of the country. 

Yes, we never looked into other nursing programs because she had three really good choices close. I just assumed with demand that most community colleges had an RN program and most state universities had a BSN option!

[Terabith]

15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

That’s probably state law and not something the doctor has control over. 

No, it's not.  All four of us are on antidepressants, with two other people on the same one she's on, and none of the rest of us have had a psychiatric visit in person since beginning of March.  

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

No, it's not.  All four of us are on antidepressants, with two other people on the same one she's on, and none of the rest of us have had a psychiatric visit in person since beginning of March.  

Can you find anyone else to refill it? This seems really stupid.

[Murphy101]

 

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I used to follow a Catholic homeschooler on Instragram. She has 10 kids, attends the latin Mass...all that jazz. 

A few days ago, she posts a picture from her daughter's confirmation. No social distancing or masks. She's in Idaho which is experiencing a surge. 

 I unfollowed her which I know is a meaningless gesture. These people have no idea what they are doing to the church in this country. I think of how much I'm worried about my parents' COVID diagnosis and these people can't even wear a mask in church or social distance. FU...FU...FU. 

 

I know. I’m so sorry about that.  It’s hard feeling.. abandoned... no, discarded..  by our church community. 

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

That’s probably state law and not something the doctor has control over. 

It’s probably both. Most doctors don’t get paid for time spent calling in a script.  But he could at least offer virtual appts. Heck my pediatrician is over 70 and he started offering virtual appts 6 months ago.

 

1 hour ago, kand said:

So much the bolded. For anyone who cares about such things, this behavior is not going to be quickly forgotten by the rest of the country. Portions of the Christian church are currently busily decimating the church from the inside right now, and they don't even seem to realize it, so focused are they on their own desires. 😢

It’s heartbreaking to witness. It really is. And it’s hard not to get angry or resentful bc of how anti-maskers insist on seeing me as extremist. It’s not extreme to wear 4” of cloth across your face and give a bit more space. It’s just not. Even without Covid it’s really not that huge a thing to consider for flu or cancer patients.

I don’t want to live in quarantine. And I wouldn’t have to if people would slow spread by wearing masks and giving some distance. And if that’s all someone needs so they can at least go to mass? I’d feel I was putting my own soul in jeopardy if I didn’t do that to help someone be with Jesus.  But alas about 1/3-1/2 of my parish now doesn’t wear masks at mass. So no mass for me.  No mass for my kids.  No more so going in the choice for my girls.  No alter serving for my boys.  No husband doing sacristan.  No me in the pew with my youngest ones.

and because they know I feel that way - suddenly our names are removed from lists of volunteers for things that should be Covid friendly bc they don’t want to work with a “liberal”.

So yeah. Covid has shown a lot of ugly in communities that won’t be forgotten for years.

 

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

and because they know I feel that way - suddenly our names are removed from lists of volunteers for things that should be Covid friendly bc they don’t want to work with a “liberal”.

That's so incredibly frustrating. It's not FAIR that not wanting to get sick suddenly says something about your politics. 

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's so incredibly frustrating. It's not FAIR that not wanting to get sick suddenly says something about your politics. 

It is frustrating bc for me, it’s not even about avoiding getting sick. I think a year from now everyone will have had Covid. I avoid not so much out of fear of getting sick so much as worry of depriving someone of a hospital bed or the ability to provide for their expenses. I really don’t think that’s a crazy thing to bother wearing a mask and giving some space for.  But I guess it is. 🥺

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

It is frustrating bc for me, it’s not even about avoiding getting sick. I think a year from now everyone will have had Covid. I avoid not so much out of fear of getting sick so much as worry of depriving someone of a hospital bed or the ability to provide for their expenses. I really don’t think that’s a crazy thing to bother wearing a mask and giving some space for.  But I guess it is. 🥺

I think a year from now we'll all be vaccinated. 

I felt like I was doing it for other people until I read a few firsthand accounts. At this point, I do NOT want this. I could, of course, wind up in the 90% of people that don't have issues, but I don't actually like those odds. 

[Laura Corin]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think a year from now we'll all be vaccinated. 

I felt like I was doing it for other people until I read a few firsthand accounts. At this point, I do NOT want this. I could, of course, wind up in the 90% of people that don't have issues, but I don't actually like those odds. 

Yes. I actually wasn't scared - I'm pretty low risk - until I started to read about Long Covid,  which seems to afflict all ages, including people much fitter than I. 

[Not_a_Number]

14 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. I actually wasn't scared - I'm pretty low risk - until I started to read about Long Covid,  which seems to afflict all ages, including people much fitter than I. 

Same. Plus, the hospitalization rates for my age aren't nearly as low as the fatality rate. Yes, the vast majority of people my age don't die. Do most people my age have truly mild cases? Debatable. I'd say 90% do. But the other 10% do not. 

[Murphy101]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think a year from now we'll all be vaccinated. 

I felt like I was doing it for other people until I read a few firsthand accounts. At this point, I do NOT want this. I could, of course, wind up in the 90% of people that don't have issues, but I don't actually like those odds. 

Idk. I’m hopeful about a vaccine but I think we will all have it by then, vaccine or not. 

14 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. I actually wasn't scared - I'm pretty low risk - until I started to read about Long Covid,  which seems to afflict all ages, including people much fitter than I. 

For me the worry is Long Covid and also people keep using the words “mild symptoms”. Y’all. Go read the “mild symptoms”. That can be some serious stuff. Mild in medical terms can still be a rough ride I don’t want to get on. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

Idk. I’m hopeful about a vaccine but I think we will all have it by then, vaccine or not. 

I really hope not. The vaccines look pretty effective, which is definitely incentivizing us staying truly locked down. 

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I really hope not. The vaccines look pretty effective, which is definitely incentivizing us staying truly locked down. 

Many people already have no symptoms. Even with the vaccine, many people who get it will likely have a milder reaction than otherwise without it. So my saying I think we will all have Covid a year from now is not necessarily a doom and gloom scenario and doesn’t mean anything bad about the vaccines. 
 

as I put it this way. When polio hit my dads family as a child, his mother would have fought to be in a line for a vaccine with even 30% effacy. Two of her children died before age 3. My dad had permanent damage from it. A chance at 30% less of that? That’s amazing. 
 

We have grown complacent in our comfort and it’s made too many unrealistic about what miracles look like. 
 

Same goes for wearing masks. Someone actually told me they thought masks were only 30% effective and if we’d wear them for Covid are we going to wear them for flu?  I got crickets and eventually unfriended when I said why would I not want to do something that reduces risk by 30% 30% is a LOT of people. 

[GoodGrief3]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Yes, we never looked into other nursing programs because she had three really good choices close. I just assumed with demand that most community colleges had an RN program and most state universities had a BSN option!

Was your son's girlfriend actually admitted into a program that guarantees a nursing spot? I ask because those direct entry BSN programs are fairly uncommon. It's much more typical that one is accepted as a nursing major, but then has to apply after 2 years for official entry into the program. That is where the holdup lies for many students. admission into the final part of the program is highly compeititive. A friend's daughter (3.6 GPA at the end of two years) was not accepted into the program at her large public university and had to make a new plan.

I just last week had a discussion with a young man (high school senior) going into nursing about the challenge of finding a direct entry program. He is leaving his preferred geographical area for school for that reason.

I have a BSN from a Minnesota university myself, though I don't currently work in the field. Know many, many people who do though.

Edited November 19, 2020 by GoodGrief3

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Many people already have no symptoms. Even with the vaccine, many people who get it will likely have a milder reaction than otherwise without it. So my saying I think we will all have Covid a year from now is not necessarily a doom and gloom scenario and doesn’t mean anything bad about the vaccines. 

I mean, the current stats are that the vaccines are 90% effective or more. People shouldn't be getting it at all with a vaccine that effective. 

I'm not arguing because this is "doom and gloom." I'm arguing because I'm hoping this is factually untrue 😉 . 

[Murphy101]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, the current stats are that the vaccines are 90% effective or more. People shouldn't be getting it at all with a vaccine that effective. 

I'm not arguing because this is "doom and gloom." I'm arguing because I'm hoping this is factually untrue 😉 . 

I don’t think we are arguing? I think we agree? *I* am saying as long as the vaccine is safe, even 30% effacy would change everything bc even IF people got it - there would be many less and chances are good it would be milder.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think we are arguing? I think we agree? *I* am saying as long as the vaccine is safe, even 30% effacy would change everything bc even IF people got it - there would be many less and chances are good it would be milder.  

Oh yeah, I agree that it'd be good. I'm just still hoping most people don't get it!! 

[Tree Frog]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We don't have enough trained staff to even maintain a "lean" system. We have to import foreign trained doctors to make up the difference. States have not increased the number of medical school spots in years even though the population increased. This is partially because it is very expensive to train a doctor. It also benefits physicians by reducing the supply. 

We've been importing foreign trained nurses for years as well. 

 

My dd is in one of the best med schools in our state. While she was getting her undergrad, she spent a summer in Germany. I flew over and we did some traveling, staying overnight in hostels. She met a young German woman who would be getting her MD after just 4 years of college. I wonder if we could change our med system to a similar model to allow for shorter training. It would make the loans significantly lower and allow training for more doctors, which would make more doctors. She has a Navy scholarship that's paying for her med school in exchange for service. She estimates that's saving her about $250,000 over the 4 years. 

My dd graduated from a small Christian university. She loved her time there, still has very close friends from that time, and they had (and still have) an excellent acceptance rate into med school. However, due to politics, she is embarrassed to tell people she graduated from this university. 

[sassenach]

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Our local hospital’s ICU is now full...however only 3 beds are taken up with Covid patients.  It’s the season for flu, accidents, and pneumonia too. 

I volunteered in an ICU last winter and there was rarely an empty bed. Our county only has 25 beds (but we are very close to a big city, so that helps). There is definitely not a lot of wiggle room around here. 

[sassenach]

16 minutes ago, Wilrunner3 said:

My dd is in one of the best med schools in our state. While she was getting her undergrad, she spent a summer in Germany. I flew over and we did some traveling, staying overnight in hostels. She met a young German woman who would be getting her MD after just 4 years of college. I wonder if we could change our med system to a similar model to allow for shorter training. It would make the loans significantly lower and allow training for more doctors, which would make more doctors. She has a Navy scholarship that's paying for her med school in exchange for service. She estimates that's saving her about $250,000 over the 4 years. 

My dd graduated from a small Christian university. She loved her time there, still has very close friends from that time, and they had (and still have) an excellent acceptance rate into med school. However, due to politics, she is embarrassed to tell people she graduated from this university. 

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

[frogger]

3 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

My guess is those 4 years is more like med school. Here you get an undergraduate degree (4 years including art, humanities, p.e., etc) and then you do your 4 years of med school. Then you have a residency, etc. 

[wathe]

27 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

A quick google tells me this, "Medical school (the medical training students obtain at a university) lasts 6 years and 3 months in Germany and it is not integrated into the Bachelor’s and Master’s degree system."  Followed by up to 6 years of residency.  This is consistent with length of training in some other parts of Europe with integrated undergrad/medschool type programs.

Edited November 20, 2020 by wathe

[wathe]

Quebec also has a streamlined medical school system, that works out to about 5-6 years post grade 12 equivalent (counting by by years of school).    Their system is quite different than anywhere else in Canada: high school ends after grade 11, then 2 years of CEGEP (preparatory college for the university bound is how I would describe it), then direct entry into medical school.  Except for McGill, which operates more like the rest of Canada, and wants a bachelor's degree first I think.   I think I've got that right.  I moved away from Quebec years ago - current Quebecers might be able to chime in.  University is super cheap in Quebec for Quebec residents too.  Very significantly less expensive than the rest of the country.

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think a year from now we'll all be vaccinated. 

I felt like I was doing it for other people until I read a few firsthand accounts. At this point, I do NOT want this. I could, of course, wind up in the 90% of people that don't have issues, but I don't actually like those odds. 

You don't want it. I edited some of the info on my friend who died of Covid. I was concerned about revealing too much and violating her privacy. It was much worse than I shared. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, kand said:

Yeah, I’m surprised for so many people to think a 10% chance of being hospitalized or at least sick for weeks is no big deal. Me or dh being hospitalized would be really difficult for our family. 

I think we aren't used to those kinds of numbers when it comes to risk assessment. Like, 90% sounds big enough, you know? Except we NEVER do things with that kind of risk profile day-to-day. We just don't. Driving isn't anything like that, and that's one of the riskiest things we do. 

90% is remarkably close to Russian roulette, except you're aiming at your leg instead of your head. Yeah, you're PROBABLY going to be fine, but do you want to play this game? Do you really? 

[Ausmumof3]

13 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

You don't want it. I edited some of the info on my friend who died of Covid. I was concerned about revealing too much and violating her privacy. It was much worse than I shared. 

I’m so sorry to hear that she died 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, the current stats are that the vaccines are 90% effective or more. People shouldn't be getting it at all with a vaccine that effective. 

I'm not arguing because this is "doom and gloom." I'm arguing because I'm hoping this is factually untrue 😉 . 

Do we know they are effective at preventing infection yet or only disease?  I mean still worth it for preventing disease but not quite as helpful long term because it increases the chance a strain will mutate that gets around the vaccine.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

Do we know they are effective at preventing infection yet or only disease?  I mean still worth it for preventing disease but not quite as helpful long term because it increases the chance a strain will mutate that gets around the vaccine.

I didn't look at the actual data so don't know what exactly they checked. If someone knows, I'd love to hear. 

[Corraleno]

12 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Do we know they are effective at preventing infection yet or only disease?  I mean still worth it for preventing disease but not quite as helpful long term because it increases the chance a strain will mutate that gets around the vaccine.

 

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't look at the actual data so don't know what exactly they checked. If someone knows, I'd love to hear. 

Pfizer and Moderna did not look at infection rates, only symptomatic disease (although even a mild cough or low fever counted as symptomatic). They said that in order to test infection rates, they would have had to do PCR testing on 30,000-45,000 people twice a week, potentially for months, and that was outside the scope of the trial for both financial and logistical reasons.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Pfizer and Moderna did not look at infection rates, only symptomatic disease (although even a mild cough or low fever counted as symptomatic). They said that in order to test infection rates, they would have had to do PCR testing on 30,000-45,000 people twice a week, potentially for months, and that was outside the scope of the trial for both financial and logistical reasons.

Thank you. Lack of symptoms ought to decrease spread, though, even with an infection. 

I hope they measure infections, too, at some point.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[EmilyGF]

37 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thank you. Lack of symptoms ought to decrease spread, though, even with an infection. 

I hope they measure infections, too, at some point.

Maybe, if you mean they aren't coughing and such. But, Tyhpoid Mary... 

No one should be hoping everyone around them gets immunized and that it covers them. Each person needs to get immunized. 

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about my parents. My mom is distrustful right now (vaccine-hesitant, not anti-vax). We're going to be vaccinated as soon as we are allowed to. Do I assume we're possibly infectious and not visit? 

I'm hoping she'll come around by the time she's in line... Sigh. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by EmilyGF

[Frances]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

I’m also not clear on how it would help to train more doctors. The bottleneck would still be the limited number of medical school slots. Yes, it could save students money because they would have fewer years of post secondary schooling, but I don’t see how it increases supply. My son also spent a year abroad in Germany. Overall the German system tracks students from a fairly young age, so students who do not qualify for the right type of high school and graduate at the very top would not generally have a chance at medical school. I think there are pros and cons to different systems, but the only real solution to training more health professionals here in the US is investing more money to produce more training slots. 
 

One interesting possibility I heard proposed once was for medical schools to make tuition free but charge for residencies. That way, the high paid specialists who do longer residencies would pay for more years of education than the lower paid primary care doctors. Plus, then those coming from abroad would be paying for the training they receive here.

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

 

2 hours ago, wathe said:

A quick google tells me this, "Medical school (the medical training students obtain at a university) lasts 6 years and 3 months in Germany and it is not integrated into the Bachelor’s and Master’s degree system."  Followed by up to 6 years of residency.  This is consistent with length of training in some other parts of Europe with integrated undergrad/medschool type programs.

As wathe says, it's 6 years, not 4. And you have to have pretty much the highest score on the university-prep high school (Gymnasiun) exit exam (Abitur). The 2 yrs of "General education" type classes are already done in Gymnasium, which lasts 2-3 years longer than the other two types of high schools.  You start specializing already then. 

[Not_a_Number]

29 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

No one should be hoping everyone around them gets immunized and that it covers them. Each person needs to get immunized. 

Oh, definitely not. We plan on getting the vaccine if we can. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m also not clear on how it would help to train more doctors. The bottleneck would still be the limited number of medical school slots. Yes, it could save students money because they would have fewer years of post secondary schooling, but I don’t see how it increases supply. My son also spent a year abroad in Germany. Overall the German system tracks students from a fairly young age, so students who do not qualify for the right type of high school and graduate at the very top would not generally have a chance at medical school. I think there are pros and cons to different systems, but the only real solution to training more health professionals here in the US is investing more money to produce more training slots. 
 

One interesting possibility I heard proposed once was for medical schools to make tuition free but charge for residencies. That way, the high paid specialists who do longer residencies would pay for more years of education than the lower paid primary care doctors. Plus, then those coming from abroad would be paying for the training they receive here.

My husband (RN - nurse manager and now a specialist in a sub-field which I don't want to name for privacy reasons) has received numerous pleas over the years to be a nursing instructor.  But he would have had to take a significant pay cut to have taken any of those  jobs. 

[Twolittleboys]

8 hours ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

 

8 hours ago, frogger said:

My guess is those 4 years is more like med school. Here you get an undergraduate degree (4 years including art, humanities, p.e., etc) and then you do your 4 years of med school. Then you have a residency, etc. 

I am actually not sure how long it takes to get a degree in medicine here in Germany (though I am fairly sure more than four years, at a minium there must be residency requirements etc.) but part of the reason is probably that it is not split into an undergraduate degree and then med school. If you want to study medicine you start right after graduating high school and just concentrate on that. So it should be shorter than in the US as you don't take any of the general undergraduate courses.

[Laura Corin]

16 minutes ago, Twolittleboys said:

 

I am actually not sure how long it takes to get a degree in medicine here in Germany (though I am fairly sure more than four years, at a minium there must be residency requirements etc.) but part of the reason is probably that it is not split into an undergraduate degree and then med school. If you want to study medicine you start right after graduating high school and just concentrate on that. So it should be shorter than in the US as you don't take any of the general undergraduate courses.

Same here in Scotland: most people enter medicine as an undergraduate at 18, although there are mature student options too.  Here's the usual structure in the UK:

Four to six years undergraduate training

Two years postgraduate foundation training

Three to seven years GP/Speciality training

So theoretically you could be a GP at age 27.

 

[Tree Frog]

11 hours ago, sassenach said:

I cannot imagine awarding an MD to someone after just 4 years of college. No way.

 

11 hours ago, frogger said:

My guess is those 4 years is more like med school. Here you get an undergraduate degree (4 years including art, humanities, p.e., etc) and then you do your 4 years of med school. Then you have a residency, etc. 

 

11 hours ago, wathe said:

A quick google tells me this, "Medical school (the medical training students obtain at a university) lasts 6 years and 3 months in Germany and it is not integrated into the Bachelor’s and Master’s degree system."  Followed by up to 6 years of residency.  This is consistent with length of training in some other parts of Europe with integrated undergrad/medschool type programs.

Thanks, y'all, for googling and clarifying. I didn't remember all the right details. I don't remember the young German woman mentioning residency at all, just that she was traveling to Austria and Italy to see if she could get into their programs.

Something else that comes into play here is their schooling system for younger students. Not everyone goes to (our equivalent of) high school. Their high school system has more stringent expectations and there is a significant oral exit exam they must pass before they graduate. Here, even with nearly all AP classes at the local good high school, my kids rarely needed to study due to the classes being so easy. I don't think that would have been the case had they attended a German school.

[Jaybee]

All this, and yet yesterday I saw a post on facebook encouraging people to watch a video on "The Covid Cult," by Tom Wood. If people are watching things like this, and don't read information like I get here, it is no wonder things are going crazy with this virus.

[BlsdMama]

14 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Was your son's girlfriend actually admitted into a program that guarantees a nursing spot? I ask because those direct entry BSN programs are fairly uncommon. It's much more typical that one is accepted as a nursing major, but then has to apply after 2 years for official entry into the program. That is where the holdup lies for many students. admission into the final part of the program is highly compeititive. A friend's daughter (3.6 GPA at the end of two years) was not accepted into the program at her large public university and had to make a new plan.

 

She was directly accepted. It's more difficult and a more difficult process, which I didn't realize.  It is competitive and involves not only application but also interviewing. 

https://nursing.uiowa.edu/admissions/bsn/direct-admission

Mom said, looking back, she almost wishes they had not gone that route because the first year of classes were classes she could have taken as a Gen Ed admit, so she was a little torn.  If you are directly admitted, you pay Nursing tuition (which is higher) at the U of I from your freshman year.  She was admitted with heavy scholarships.  I admit she was a *very* unusual student and very gifted.  She's a senior this year and will be going on for her NP.  (And I'll just add that my son, bless his soul, should have recognized a good thing, and yes, I need to let it go, but she would be every mama's dream as far as daughter in laws go.) ❤️ 

Edited November 20, 2020 by BlsdMama

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

 

No one should be hoping everyone around them gets immunized and that it covers them. Each person needs to get immunized. 

 

Careful with such a blanket statement such as "all" - for some vaccines represent a threat as does Covid.  It's unfair to categorize someone as careless for not vaccinating.  I'm certain many are carefully trying to weigh the risks of the vaccine against the risks of the disease itself and that is not an easy task.  I hate when we make the assumption that in the case of *all* vaccines that the scenario is simply good vs. bad.  It's not that cut and dried unfortunately.  I sure wish it was.

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Careful with such a blanket statement such as "all" - for some vaccines represent a threat as does Covid.  It's unfair to categorize someone as careless for not vaccinating.  I'm certain many are carefully trying to weigh the risks of the vaccine against the risks of the disease itself and that is not an easy task.  I hate when we make the assumption that in the case of *all* vaccines that the scenario is simply good vs. bad.  It's not that cut and dried unfortunately.  I sure wish it was.

At the moment, it’s looking pretty easy. Has anyone who’s been vaccinated been hospitalized? 

[cintinative]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

At the moment, it’s looking pretty easy. Has anyone who’s been vaccinated been hospitalized? 

I'm not sure of context, but in the trial for Astra Zeneca's vaccine, someone came down with Transverse Myelitis. Since I have it, I can speak to the fact I would not wish it on anyone, and I have a very mild case. I can walk. I have not lost all bladder or bowel function. Some have not been so fortunate. So yes, if you ended up with a severe case of TM they might try to treat it with steroids in the hospital, if they caught it in time.  Again, I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly.  

Some of us, like blsdmama and I, who have autoimmunes, might need to think very carefully about a vaccine.  It's not that I don't want to protect others. I certainly do. I think humility requires us to consider others. That is why we have been so very cautious since this started.  But I am going to be very careful about what vaccine I accept, and watch for these types of side effects very closely.  

On the plus side, I think I can now share that my neighbor had COVID and ended up in the hospital for days, but his wife, who received the Pfizer vaccine during a trial, did not even get sick.  She assumes she did not get the placebo. So, if that is what you meant, I think we have reason to be very optimistic.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by cintinative

[Harriet Vane]

13 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Maybe, if you mean they aren't coughing and such. But, Tyhpoid Mary... 

No one should be hoping everyone around them gets immunized and that it covers them. Each person needs to get immunized. 

I'm not sure what I'm going to do about my parents. My mom is distrustful right now (vaccine-hesitant, not anti-vax). We're going to be vaccinated as soon as we are allowed to. Do I assume we're possibly infectious and not visit? 

I'm hoping she'll come around by the time she's in line... Sigh. 

Just want to gently point out that it's really not that simple.

There are many people like myself who believe in vaccination, but who have had dysfunctional or dangerous responses to medical intervention. Much as I might *want* to take the medicine, I am really, really cautious because I have had: allergic response to one class of meds multiple times, non-allergic but potentially deadly response to antibiotics that put me in the hospital ICU once (and which took a terribly long time to heal and from which I still suffer permanent effects), non-allergic but horrid systemic reaction for which I had to both take multiple rounds of big-deal meds and also live on a stringent diet for a year, not to mention the fact that many "normal" meds just affect me badly. I wish I could lean in and trust in modern medicine, but my documented medical history indicates that I cannot. My hope is to see how the vaccine plays out, let them work out the kinks (as there have been for every single vaccine ever created), and then get the vaccine when things are more stable. In the meantime, though I don't particularly enjoy wearing a mask, I am glad I have an option that is cheap and do-able.

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

At the moment, it’s looking pretty easy. Has anyone who’s been vaccinated been hospitalized? 

Just going to gently point out what a simplistic statement this is. It may look easy to you, but some of us have a more complicated medical history and no, it does NOT look easy, not because of the clinical trials, but because of our individual health challenges.

One can assume that the trials were conducted on healthy individuals. The larger population has a much greater variance in health. 

Copying and pasting my response to another poster:

Just want to gently point out that it's really not that simple.

There are many people like myself who believe in vaccination, but who have had dysfunctional or dangerous responses to medical intervention. Much as I might *want* to take the medicine, I am really, really cautious because I have had: allergic response to one class of meds multiple times, non-allergic but potentially deadly response to antibiotics that put me in the hospital ICU once (and which took a terribly long time to heal and from which I still suffer permanent effects), non-allergic but horrid systemic reaction for which I had to both take multiple rounds of big-deal meds and also live on a stringent diet for a year, not to mention the fact that many "normal" meds just affect me badly. I wish I could lean in and trust in modern medicine, but my documented medical history indicates that I cannot. My hope is to see how the vaccine plays out, let them work out the kinks (as there have been for every single vaccine ever created), and then get the vaccine when things are more stable. In the meantime, though I don't particularly enjoy wearing a mask, I am glad I have an option that is cheap and do-able.

[sassenach]

16 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

Was your son's girlfriend actually admitted into a program that guarantees a nursing spot? I ask because those direct entry BSN programs are fairly uncommon. It's much more typical that one is accepted as a nursing major, but then has to apply after 2 years for official entry into the program. That is where the holdup lies for many students. admission into the final part of the program is highly compeititive. A friend's daughter (3.6 GPA at the end of two years) was not accepted into the program at her large public university and had to make a new plan.

I just last week had a discussion with a young man (high school senior) going into nursing about the challenge of finding a direct entry program. He is leaving his preferred geographical area for school for that reason.

I have a BSN from a Minnesota university myself, though I don't currently work in the field. Know many, many people who do though.

I'm in nursing school right now and my dd plans on pursuing nursing in college. In CA, for years a lot of colleges were on a lottery system, which was absolute torture. It didn't matter if you were the best in prerequisites, in the end it was all luck. Now, most of the programs have moved to a points system and it's really competitive. I had strong stats to get into my program. For dd, we've been looking for direct entry programs in the state and there are just a handful. There are 3 uber competitive state schools with direct entry. Those are going to be her reach applications (average 4.2 and 1400 SAT to get in). There are 2 private schools. Pricey but we're ok with going the private Christian university route. Her safety is a CSU without direct entry.

Even harder than getting into school in California is getting a new grad job. There is not a nursing shortage in California. We get travelers from all over the country (and beyond) because the pay is so great here. I was on a unit that had people who travel from the Philippines and Portugal once a month. It's bananas. Most new grads here leave the state to find a job.

[Not_a_Number]

34 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I'm not sure of context, but in the trial for Astra Zeneca's vaccine, someone came down with Transverse Myelitis. Since I have it, I can speak to the fact I would not wish it on anyone, and I have a very mild case. I can walk. I have not lost all bladder or bowel function. Some have not been so fortunate. So yes, if you ended up with a severe case of TM they might try to treat it with steroids in the hospital, if they caught it in time.  Again, I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly.  

Some of us, like blsdmama and I, who have autoimmunes, might need to think very carefully about a vaccine.  It's not that I don't want to protect others. I certainly do. I think humility requires us to consider others. That is why we have been so very cautious since this started.  But I am going to be very careful about what vaccine I accept, and watch for these types of side effects very closely.  

On the plus side, I think I can now share that my neighbor had COVID and ended up in the hospital for days, but his wife, who received the Pfizer vaccine during a trial, did not even get sick.  She assumes she did not get the placebo. So, if that is what you meant, I think we have reason to be very optimistic.

 

I’m not surprised that the vaccine has side effects, and I understand people wanting to take that into consideration. I’m just curious whether it’s obvious to you that the vaccine is a worse bet than the disease. It’s not like deciding not to get the measles vaccine, where herd immunity is in play. If you don’t get THIS vaccine, you’re quite likely to get COVID. 

 

19 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

One can assume that the trials were conducted on healthy individuals. The larger population has a much greater variance in health. 

This seems to be the demographic data:

https://www.modernatx.com/sites/default/files/content_documents/2020-COVE-Study-Enrollment-Completion-10.22.20.pdf

I am sure that it’s not as varied as the population, but no, phase 3 trials are not only for healthy people.

[Drama Llama]

I think it's too early to know whether there might be side effects the vaccines, but I thought it was established that the TM wasn't related.

When you run a vaccine trial with many thousands of participants, some of them are going to develop other medical issues.  The question is whether the vaccine makes those medical issues more likely.  

Also, keep in mind that in addition to people who have health issues that might make it unsafe to take the vaccine, there will be people whose health issues make them less likely to mount an immune response, making the vaccine ineffectual.  

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think it's too early to know whether there might be side effects the vaccines, but I thought it was established that the TM wasn't related.

But even if it’s related, you shouldn’t compare this to staying healthy — you should compare to the list of side effects of getting the virus. Both getting the vaccine and not getting the vaccine is playing the odds. If you’re allergic to a vaccine ingredient or have a bad history with vaccines, that does change your odds. But the point is that you should look at both possibilities seriously.

@maize — thank you, by the way, for framing it in this way. It has given me a useful perspective.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[cintinative]

13 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 I thought it was established that the TM wasn't related.

 

I am not sure. In another thread they said that the TM was related, I just did a quick google and it's not clear from the articles I found if the TM patient received the vaccine. This was only for the AZ vaccine. I haven't heard anything about the others.  I have been waiting to hear an official statement from the TM Association. If I hear, I will post.