Letter from Birmingham Jail

[Not_a_Number]

Hey all, 

I saw that @kand linked MLK's "Letter from Birmingham Jail" in the other thread: 

https://letterfromjail.com/

I've read excerpts from it before, but not the whole thing. Anyone want to discuss it with me, and whether its lessons apply to our modern world? I'm finding it fascinating and very relevant so far. 

[Not_a_Number]

This is an oft-quoted passage, but it's still relevant: 

 

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, kand said:

Obviously I do and I think it does. Sadly, I don’t recall reading it when I was in school, but when I first read it a few years ago, I found it extremely compelling and relevant in today’s world. Maybe later I will bring in another quote or two that might be worth discussing. It was part of a shift for me, in that I used to think protests shouldn’t be disruptive to others. That was naive of me. (I hadn’t made the connection between protests in the civil rights era and today. I always thought they were appropriate then, but perhaps because I was naïve about the degree of racial injustice still being suffered, I hadn’t been seeing it as the same thing. I grew up in a “color blind” household in an area without any overt racism visible to me, and the last five years or so have really been a wake up to me about where the country actually is on this issue). 

It's uncannily relevant. I can see reading it that the arguments proposed against his movement were just the same as the arguments against the movements today. 

This does make me feel like the current racial justice movement need a charismatic figure like him. And that a focus on nonviolence by such a figure would really help, because the violence solves nothing and dilutes the righteousness of your cause. It is better to be in the right. It is vital not to hurt innocent bystanders. 

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Being in the right got MLK killed. And violence has actually solved many injustices so I can't agree that non-violence is always the right way to fight against injustice. Think about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising; would non-violence have worked then? But then there's the example of the Rosenstrasse protests. I think there's a time for non-violence and a time for violence. 

I guess the violence seems unjust, too, though. It is unjust to the people who have to suffer the brunt of the violence.

I can't disagree with you that violence has been used for just ends in the past, but as far as I can tell, it is currently both unnecessary and counterproductive. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

People sometimes have to suffer the brunt of violence even if they are protesting non-violently. There's no guarantee that the other side will be non-violent. 

There's also a distinction between violence as self defense and pre-emptive violence. 

I'm obviously OK with violence as self-defense. However, I think the message is more powerful if people stay as non-violent as possible. Of course, you can't help people infiltrating and sowing chaos, either, but in my opinion, you should try. (Hence the advantages of more centralization.) 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

People sometimes have to suffer the brunt of violence even if they are protesting non-violently. There's no guarantee that the other side will be non-violent. 

There's also a distinction between violence as self defense and pre-emptive violence. 

This. People continue to promote the idea of non-violent protest without acknowledging that the 60s era protests weren’t nonviolent. People died. Property was damaged. The protesters were nonviolent. LEOs were not. What they’re asking is for another generation to accept that kind of abuse, while they look on from the comfort of their living rooms, in an effort to inspire/provoke their sympathy and outrage. Lafayette square writ large.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This. People continue to promote the idea of non-violent protest without acknowledging that the 60s era protests weren’t nonviolent. The protesters were nonviolent. LEOs we’re not. What they’re asking is for another generation to accept abuse while they look on in an effort to inspire/provoke their sympathy. Lafayette square writ large.

I know. It's terrible. I'm just not sure the alternative is better. The violence won't HELP. (Well, unless you're planning to really orchestrate the violence. Uprisings can solve problems, of course. But random chaotic violence does nothing but dilute your message.) 

ETA: I'm not advocating for orchestrating the violence. I'm just musing out loud about when violence can help, and when it can be counterproductive. I mean, you can't argue violence never helps, because then you would argue wars never help. That's obviously false, and there are obviously just wars. But I don't think that's where we are. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

It’s not about better or worse but moral and immoral. It’s immoral to demand that sacrifice. We should be able to recognize that by now.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s not about better or worse but moral and immoral. It’s immoral to demand that sacrifice. We should be able to recognize that by now.

What about violence that affects random bystanders, though? I don't condemn people for fighting back. I've seen the videos myself. It'd be hard not to fight back. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What about violence that affects random bystanders, though? I don't condemn people for fighting back. I've seen the videos myself. It'd be hard not to fight back. 

In the 60s, there were no bystanders just as there really aren’t now. The people standing on the streets and yelling at John Lewis as he marched by wanted to be there to witness whatever happened next. The ppl in the lunch counters wanted to be there. Kyle Rittenhouse and his buddy wanted to be there. The LR Central students wanted to be there yelling. Who are these bystanders and why aren’t they off the streets, at home?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Terabith]

Re violence versus non-violence in protests.  

Protests and civil disobedience are always violent.  The difference is that in what we call non-violence, the violence is perpetrated upon the bodies of the protestors.  

I think in many cases, non-violent protest is far more effective at persuading others to join a cause.  It pricks the morality of others.  But we need to be very very clear about what we're asking when we demand non-violent protest.  

I mean, what could be more non-violent than kneeling (respectfully!) at the Anthem, and apparently that's horrible.  

Edited November 11, 2020 by Terabith

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

In the 60s, there were no bystanders just as there really aren’t now. The people standing on the streets and yelling at John Lewis as he marched by wanted to be there to witness whatever happened next. The ppl in the lunch counters wanted to be there. The students wanted to be there yelling. Who are these bystanders and why aren’t they off the streets, at home?

Well, I'll say that if your business gets broken into, you couldn't have packed it up and taken it home. For the record, I don't think most of the looters are genuine protesters, but I think there is serious advantage to the movement in trying to route them out. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think in many cases, non-violent protest is far more effective at persuading others to join a cause.  It pricks the morality of others.  But we need to be very very clear about what we're asking when we demand non-violent protest.  

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's more effective. I think it's a cannier strategy. But I realize I'm asking other people to bear the brunt of it. 

 

Quote

I mean, what could be more non-violent than kneeling (respectfully!) at the Anthem, and apparently that's horrible.  

Don't worry, they can protest. As long as no one can see them and it doesn't get in the way of anything else. It'll be effective then, we promise. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't think you can know in advance when the violence will help and when it will be counterproductive.

Maybe not. I'm armchair theorizing, as usual. 

 

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I also don't think that those of us on the outside can make that judgment. 

I see that. Then perhaps what I'd like is for people to think this through. Not me, because it's not my fight. But for someone to think about what the right thing in this moment in time is. 

[Not_a_Number]

On the topic of the violence: 

 

In your statement you asserted that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But can this assertion be logically made? Isn’t this like condemning the robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn’t this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical delvings precipitated the misguided popular mind to make him drink the hemlock? Isn’t this like condemning Jesus because His unique God-consciousness and never-ceasing devotion to His will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see, as federal courts have consistently affirmed, that it is immoral to urge an individual to withdraw his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest precipitates violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, I'll say that if your business gets broken into, you couldn't have packed it up and taken it home. For the record, I don't think most of the looters are genuine protesters, but I think there is serious advantage to the movement in trying to route them out. 

Yeah, that happened then too. Then, as now, it was primarily minorities whose businesses and homes were razed.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Yeah, that happened then too. Then, as now, it was primarily minorities whose businesses and homes were razed.

Unsurprising, I guess. 

I don't know this history very well, so any information is much appreciated. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

That's so hard to do. How do you know? 

See this Twitter thread about "non-violent" protests. It delves into some interesting history that most of us don't know. 

 

Fascinating thread, thank you. 

Here's one thing that stood out to me. 

 

Contrary to what you've been told. MLK wasn't about marching and protesting to bring awareness to a cause. Every move he made was a calculated strategic move towards a DIRECT GOAL.

 

So I think there needs to be some serious strategizing. What are the goals? The clearer they are, the better. 

I appreciate the reminder about the COSTS of nonviolence. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know but how do you decide what the goals are? Who gets to decide? 

Well, not me, that's for sure. That's why I think leaders are important. I think people rally around leaders. Decentralized movements without legislative goals aren't all that effective, in my opinion. 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, not me, that's for sure. That's why I think leaders are important. I think people rally around leaders. Decentralized movements without legislative goals aren't all that effective, in my opinion. 

There are legislative goals but they do not all fall under the BLM umbrella. Local BLM groups are working on municipal rules and policing. National Action Network, NAACP among others are active on the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. There are MANY, MANY proposals and pieces of legislation that have already been passed in this space. Breonna's Law in Kentucky WRT no knock warrants. Then there's this...https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/police-use-of-force-chokehold-carotid-ban/

Local activists have done this.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

There are legislative goals but they do not all fall under the BLM umbrella. Local BLM groups are working on municipal rules and policing. National Action Network, NAACP among others are active on the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. There are MANY, MANY proposals and pieces of legislation that have already been passed in this space.

Thank you. That's a good point. Perhaps they deserve more publicity, because the protests get a lot of coverage, but the goals do not. (But this may be a function of the news I read. Which may very well be on me.) 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thank you. That's a good point. Perhaps they deserve more publicity, because the protests get a lot of coverage, but the goals do not. (But this may be a function of the news I read. Which may very well be on me.) 

On the one hand, I am seeing calls for less flashy displays and more local activism and then on the other there's the demonization of those same activists, like Rep.-elect Bush (who was able to achieve similar municipal changes in Ferguson). You cannot have it both ways, people. These reforms are what those constituencies/communities are asking for. The complete mind**** being perpetrated on this movement is unreal. Damned if you do, damned if you dare, damned if you don't.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

On the one hand, I am seeing calls for less flashy displays and more local activism and then the demonization of those same activists, like Rep.-elect Bush who was able to achieve similar municipal changes in Ferguson. You cannot have it both ways, people.

Hey, I'm not calling for less flashy displays! I think the protests are effective at affecting public opinion. I'm just thinking about the fact that I don't know enough about the goals, myself. 

(I'm also not demonizing Rep.-elect Bush, to be fair 😉. But you probably didn't mean me, anyway.)  

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There are legislative goals but they do not all fall under the BLM umbrella. Local BLM groups are working on municipal rules and policing. National Action Network, NAACP among others are active on the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. There are MANY, MANY proposals and pieces of legislation that have already been passed in this space. Breonna's Law in Kentucky WRT no knock warrants. Then there's this...https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/police-use-of-force-chokehold-carotid-ban/

Local activists have done this.

And of course, then you get into the fact that the police force culture is toxic, and that no matter how many policies you pass, you can't really fix that without dealing with the issue. I don't know how that gets fixed. I really don't. (But perhaps other people do, and I'm just not paying attention.) 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hey, I'm not calling for less flashy displays! I think the protests are effective at affecting public opinion. I'm just thinking about the fact that I don't know enough about the goals, myself. 

(I'm also not demonizing Rep.-elect Bush, to be fair 😉. But you probably didn't mean me, anyway.)  

There is no way, NONE, to have an uncontroversial movement to redress these sorts of grievances. The comments WRT to this movement from the right and the left tell me it's EXACTLY where it needs to be doing EXACTLY what it needs to be doing and I'm more than a little tired of the armchair quarterbacking. Don't kneel. Don't absent yourself. Don't wear a t-shirt, don't block a street, don't yell, don't lobby, and God-forbid don't run for Congress you Marxist-sympathizer, you! The whiplash is dizzying.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

44 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But random chaotic violence does nothing but dilute your message.) 

This is a very commonly used argument, and I strongly oppose its use, but only figured out why in the past couple of years.

I (we, us, general privileged folks) aren’t actually in need of or deserving of having a message presented in the ways that we feel most palatable.  “I will not listen unless you ______” is a huge part of the issue.  We KNOW the main message.  WE are choosing to drown out our discomfort with “but”s.

If we would get our heads out of our asses, accept the words we’re hearing, and take the necessary actions, there would be no need for even the most peaceful protests, let alone violent ones.  THAT’S ON US.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

This is a very commonly used argument, and I strongly oppose its use, but only figured out why in the past couple of years.

I (we, us, general privileged folks) aren’t actually in need of or deserving of having a message presented in the ways that we feel most palatable.  “I will not listen unless you ______” is a huge part of the issue.  We KNOW the main message.  WE are choosing to drown out our discomfort with “but”s.

If we would get our heads out of our asses, accept the words we’re hearing, and take the necessary actions, there would be no need for even the most peaceful protests, let alone violent ones.  THAT’S ON US.

The problem is that I'm not the audience. I would like to take the necessary actions. But I'm not the person who needs to be convinced. I'm easy to convince. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There is no way, NONE, to have an uncontroversial movement to redress these sorts of grievances. The comments WRT to this movement from the right and the left tell me it's EXACTLY where it needs to be doing EXACTLY what it needs to be doing and I'm more than a little tired of the armchair quarterbacking.

I'm sorry. Would you like me to stop? I always have more opinions than other people want to hear. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem is that I'm not the audience. I would like to take the necessary actions. But I'm not the person who needs to be convinced. I'm easy to convince. 

 

I'm sorry. Would you like me to stop? I always have more opinions than other people want to hear. 

QB away. You'd be far more productive, however, finding a way to do something in your local area. These questions are best directed to the people near you working on these issues. Ask *them* what their needs are and how you can help.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem is that I'm not the audience. I would like to take the necessary actions. But I'm not the person who needs to be convinced. I'm easy to convince

I’m not, either.  But I carry the weight of “my people” in this regard, the same way Black individuals and organizations are being burdened by the actions of a few.  And one of the measly things I can do is point out that our words matter, and we should be careful about echoing the arguments we hear in our bubble.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

QB away. You'd be far more productive, however, finding a way to do something in your local area. These questions are best directed to the people near you working on these issues. Ask *them* what their needs are and how you can help.

You're right about that. I'm not involved enough. Right now, I'm even too chicken to go to protests, given COVID. 

Just for a sample, what are some good ways to be involved? 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

You're right about that. I'm not involved enough. Right now, I'm even too chicken to go to protests, given COVID. 

Just for a sample, what are some good ways to be involved? 

I'm sorry. You're going to have to look up resources in your area. I cannot do that for you. Chances are good, your local paper will have stories with quotes/links you can follow.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I'm sorry. You're going to have to look up resources in your area. I cannot do that for you. Chances are good, your local paper will have stories with quotes/links you can follow.

Yeah, I didn't mean you should look things up locally. I just don't come from a family culture of being involved at all. I have no clue what people do. If you ask me, I'll come out with nonsense. 

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

This is an oft-quoted passage, but it's still relevant: 

 

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Wow, it's practically word for word what was being argued in the thread that got shut down. 

5 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've thought about this passage many times over the last few years. 

We see the "white moderate" reaction today. It's so aggravating to hear people lecture protestors for not being like Martin Luther King when they shot MLK. 

I wrote on the other thread that we must acknowledge the reality of division. Our goal should not be unity but justice. 

 

Yup. 
I want to yell, "you know they shot him, right?" when ever anyone brings him up. 

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

This. People continue to promote the idea of non-violent protest without acknowledging that the 60s era protests weren’t nonviolent. People died. Property was damaged. The protesters were nonviolent. LEOs were not. What they’re asking is for another generation to accept that kind of abuse, while they look on from the comfort of their living rooms, in an effort to inspire/provoke their sympathy and outrage. Lafayette square writ large.

exactly

4 hours ago, Terabith said:

mean, what could be more non-violent than kneeling (respectfully!) at the Anthem, and apparently that's horrible.  

Not that way! Or the other way. Or that othr thing. Don't even claim your lives matter - that's offensive too. UGH!

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Don't worry, they can protest. As long as no one can see them and it doesn't get in the way of anything else. It'll be effective then, we promise. 

Yeah, it's like they don't get that the whole POINT of a protest is to be disruptive and a thorn in one's side. 

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

There is no way, NONE, to have an uncontroversial movement to redress these sorts of grievances. The comments WRT to this movement from the right and the left tell me it's EXACTLY where it needs to be doing EXACTLY what it needs to be doing and I'm more than a little tired of the armchair quarterbacking. Don't kneel. Don't absent yourself. Don't wear a t-shirt, don't block a street, don't yell, don't lobby, and God-forbid don't run for Congress you Marxist-sympathizer, you! The whiplash is dizzying.

I'm not even part of the group it is directed to, and it makes me want to scream. I can't imagine how you or others feel to have it aimed your way. 

[Carrie12345]

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I didn't mean you should look things up locally. I just don't come from a family culture of being involved at all. I have no clue what people do. If you ask me, I'll come out with nonsense. 

I, a middle aged white lady, put my foot in my mouth (words and actions) enough to make me feel pretty self-conscious, so a big part of my focus is to keep working on smoothing my words and actions to match the heart of issues rather than spewing in frustration, which is where they get all jarbled. I work on getting over my discomfort with my mistakes so the conversations and interactions I have with people can be taken more seriously.

I join and donate to local organizations like the NAACP. We don’t have a whole lot of minority (of all categories) owned businesses, but I know where a few are outside of the area and will use them if I ever have a life off this mountain again. I only know of some of them from reading posts and articles that come from the organizations I join and follow, and they send out a lot of other good to have info.  I don’t do protests and demonstrations right now, but they do start conversations in my social groups and I take part in those. I use my votes for all levels of government to select people who support equal rights and to get as diverse a government as possible to better reflect our society. (Gender, skin color, heritage,, religion, sexual orientation, whatever.) I continue to keep my eyes open for ideas and opportunities.

It does not feel like enough.  Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. For me, sometimes that’s just continuing to read and examining my own programming. There’s enough out here on the internet to keep one busy for multiple lifetimes.

[Sneezyone]

12 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I see that. Then perhaps what I'd like is for people to think this through. Not me, because it's not my fight. But for someone to think about what the right thing in this moment in time is. 

What makes you think that these conversations aren't being had? Do you suppose everyone is stupid? Movements don't get this far when they're populated by stupid people. What makes you think that conversations haven't been had about the wisdom of elevating singular leaders vs. disaggregating and localizing the movement? There are writings  available on this topic both past and present. It's also helpful to read stories of the systematic targeting of movement leaders. This kind of pointless dialogue is what happens when people think they know things based on what they can see peeking in the windows and don't actually talk to the people who can answer their questions, read their writings, follow their activities/organizations. You have no idea what's going on inside, what conversations are being had, what lessons have been learned from the past and talking about it here will get you no closer to that understanding because people here largely don't know either. I also don't exempt myself from that critique. It's why I keep saying that the best way to combat the stories people tell themselves is to do some independent work with the actual people leading in this space.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What makes you think that these conversations aren't being had? Do you suppose everyone is stupid? Movements don't get this far when they're populated by stupid people. What makes you think that conversations haven't been had about the wisdom of elevating singular leaders vs. disaggregating and localizing the movement? There are writings  available on this topic both past and present. It's also helpful to read stories of the systematic targeting of movement leaders. This kind of pointless dialogue is what happens when people think they know things based on what they can see peeking in the windows and don't actually talk to the people who can answer their questions, read their writings, follow their activities/organizations. You have no idea what's going on inside, what conversations are being had, what lessons have been learned from the past and talking about it here will get you no closer to that understanding because people here largely don't know either.

Look, if you want me to be quiet, I will. You’re right that I don’t know very much, and that pretty much all of my opinions at this point are pretty abstract.
 

[Sneezyone]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Look, if you want me to be quiet, I will. You’re right that I don’t know very much, and that pretty much all of my opinions at this point are pretty abstract.
 

I don't want to shush anyone. I want to point out that these are questions you can answer for yourself if you choose to.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don't want to shush anyone. I want to point out that these are questions you can answer for yourself if you choose to.

 

You mean by becoming involved? 

[SKL]

His comments about the right time ... I wonder what would have happened had he urged the patience that was suggested to him.  On the one hand, the Black Nationalists would have probably gotten more of a foothold, and if you look at their agenda, you would probably agree that it wouldn't advance desegregation, brotherhood, or peace.  On the other hand, the reforms that were ripe to be made would not have been made for who knows how long.

Yes, it's relevant to today. 

I would point out that different regions are at different places as far as what kind of activism would work today.  Well, that was true then also, but focusing on today.  The freedom to have a truly non-violent [on both sides] protest is very high in a significant % of US cities; I can't say the exact %.  There are different degrees of local black control existing in different cities' police departments.  There are different levels of understanding of what fairness is.

I don't claim to have the answers, but I would advise those not heavily involved to not paint the whole country with a broad brush.

I hope that when my kids teach their kids about the peaceful protests of today, they will be able to show them the positive outcomes also.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yes, this is what she means. POC are tired of having to do the heavy lifting for us. You need to look around your community.

So like for me, I have found some of the higher profile POC in our community. I have friended several on FB.  One runs the remembrance of the Colored School ( That is what they called it. I know it isn't used today.) I am reading what she posts. I make comments on it.  I may have her write an article about the school for my blog someday if she wants or I may interview her and write it. Whatever she wants. As I grow in relationship, I will ask her questions about what she would like to see for our town. What are her hopes that she really wishes could happen.   

Yeah, I understand. And I’ll give some thought to how get involved, but I’m currently not going anywhere, because that’s my COVID tolerance.

I’m just always interested in how things work 🤷‍♀️. 

[Not_a_Number]

36 minutes ago, SKL said:

I would point out that different regions are at different places as far as what kind of activism would work today.  Well, that was true then also, but focusing on today.  The freedom to have a truly non-violent [on both sides] protest is very high in a significant % of US cities; I can't say the exact %.  There are different degrees of local black control existing in different cities' police departments.  There are different levels of understanding of what fairness is.

Yes, I agree with you that there is lots of freedom to protest, at least in theory. I don’t know what kinds of activism will work, but I would guess to work it has to get in your face and be an irritant.

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

His comments about the right time ... I wonder what would have happened had he urged the patience that was suggested to him.  On the one hand, the Black Nationalists would have probably gotten more of a foothold, and if you look at their agenda, you would probably agree that it wouldn't advance desegregation, brotherhood, or peace.  On the other hand, the reforms that were ripe to be made would not have been made for who knows how long.

Yes, it's relevant to today. 

I would point out that different regions are at different places as far as what kind of activism would work today.  Well, that was true then also, but focusing on today.  The freedom to have a truly non-violent [on both sides] protest is very high in a significant % of US cities; I can't say the exact %.  There are different degrees of local black control existing in different cities' police departments.  There are different levels of understanding of what fairness is.

I don't claim to have the answers, but I would advise those not heavily involved to not paint the whole country with a broad brush.

I hope that when my kids teach their kids about the peaceful protests of today, they will be able to show them the positive outcomes also.

Ha! We largely agree. I’m swingy like that, lol. My only quibble would be that I think you’re overestimating the possibility of non-violence (on both sides) nationwide. The lack of conflict to date does not mean that there would be no conflict if local advocates engaged in direct action. It may mean a community is so dominated by one perspective that the choices of advocates are circumscribed by legitimate fear.
 

Authoritarianism has become a part of LEO, and to a lesser extent, military culture. It’s a minority vibe, to be sure, but it’s an ever-present and vocal one that shifts the behavior of moderates too. So much so that my own family members in the LE community have deleted their social media accounts citing things their peers were saying. It was making it difficult for them to work together amicably. It was said that minority LEOs support this lurch but, not so, most large LEO agencies have separate ‘unions’ to represent the voices of minority officers. I am also seeing minority police chiefs being appointed over largely homogenous groups of officers. That’s not gonna work either. 
 

I hope, like you, that ‘peaceful’ protests don’t engender violence on any side. I’m just not optimistic.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Matryoshka]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

You mean by becoming involved? 

Quote

Yeah, I understand. And I’ll give some thought to how get involved, but I’m currently not going anywhere, because that’s my COVID tolerance.

I’m just always interested in how things work 🤷‍♀️. 

Another good place is to start reading.  A lot of people that have the background and history you seek have written really good books on these things, so you don't have to stumble into groups and expect people doing the work to answer all the questions they've heard a million times and don't have time to answer.  I think if you have a lot of questions, reading should come before joining up, as you'll just get a lot of reactions like Sneezy's.  

I've been reading a lot on the subject on my own, and have recently joined a Racial Justice book group - I've already read a lot of what's coming up, but it's also good to discuss it.  Happy to share reading lists (there are also many online, of course).  There are a lot of really good, informative books that are great reads, not at all dry.  There are some great audios, too, if your sitting and reading time is limited.

I would also like to become more involved in work on the ground, but I've also got Covid fears.  I've been pondering where I could do the most good when in-person things aren't as fraught.  Before this all hit, I'd dipped my toe into various things, joined some lists, attended some things, but hadn't done any heavy lifting.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Another good place is to start reading.  A lot of people that have the background and history you seek have written really good books on these things, so you don't have to stumble into groups and expect people doing the work to answer all the questions they've heard a million times and don't have time to answer.  I think if you have a lot of questions, reading should come before joining up, as you'll just get a lot of reactions like Sneezy's.  

I'll have questions even if I read, lol. Maybe they'll be less stupid questions, though. I just really prize the ability to talk to people, although I understand that people get sick and tired of answering the same thing a zillion times. So I both don't blame people who don't want to go over old ground, and also wish there's exist people who would enjoy talking to me. I feel like I get a more living sense of the realities when I talk to people. 

 

13 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I've been reading a lot on the subject on my own, and have recently joined a Racial Justice book group - I've already read a lot of what's coming up, but it's also good to discuss it.  Happy to share reading lists (there are also many online, of course).  There are a lot of really good, informative books that are great reads, not at all dry.  There are some great audios, too, if your sitting and reading time is limited.

Yeah, I'd love to see reading lists. Honestly, I'm in a rereading and forum-use phase of my reading right now, which is why I'm here and not getting books... realistically, I'm only using interstitial time to read right now, and it's all Agatha Christies. However, I'm thinking of starting a book list for myself, so if you have suggestions, I'm all ears. 

 

13 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I would also like to become more involved in work on the ground, but I've also got Covid fears.  I've been pondering where I could do the most good when in-person things aren't as fraught.  Before this all hit, I'd dipped my toe into various things, joined some lists, attended some things, but hadn't done any heavy lifting.

Yeah, I haven't gotten involved at all, and it's a shame. Partially it's just that the days already felt precarious with a little one and a homeschooled kid, especially since I've been trying to take their social needs seriously. But they are older now... perhaps that'll be different (until we have another or something, lol.) 

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'll have questions even if I read, lol. Maybe they'll be less stupid questions, though. I just really prize the ability to talk to people, although I understand that people get sick and tired of answering the same thing a zillion times. So I both don't blame people who don't want to go over old ground, and also wish there's exist people who would enjoy talking to me. I feel like I get a more living sense of the realities when I talk to people. 

Yeah, I'd love to see reading lists. Honestly, I'm in a rereading and forum-use phase of my reading right now, which is why I'm here and not getting books... realistically, I'm only using interstitial time to read right now, and it's all Agatha Christies. However, I'm thinking of starting a book list for myself, so if you have suggestions, I'm all ears.

Okay.  There are other lists out there; these are just ones I've read and found very, very good - it's by no means comprehensive.  Others are welcome to add! 🙂

• The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson
• We Were Eight Years in Power by Ta-Nehesi Coates
• I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Brown Channing (this one does a lot of 'splaining why POC are so tired of answering the same darn questions from well-meaning white people and it's not their job to explain it to you.  A good book!)
• Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson
• How to be an Anti-Racist by Ibram X. Kendi
• The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

I have not read yet but am looking forward to reading: 

• The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein
• Overground Railroad by Candacy Taylor
• The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin (a classic)
• The Fire This Time by Jesmyn Ward (a contemporary response to the classic)
• Caste by Isabel Wilkerson
• Black Wall Street by Hannibal B. Johnson
• Biased by Jennifer Eberhardt

You (and others) might also be interested in this book, as its subject is basically the history of different non-violent movements, and the pros/cons of the distributed grass-roots model (a la BLM) and the more centralized model (one organization setting an agenda, having a spokesperson).

• This is an Uprising by Mark Engler

Quote

Yeah, I haven't gotten involved at all, and it's a shame. Partially it's just that the days already felt precarious with a little one and a homeschooled kid, especially since I've been trying to take their social needs seriously. But they are older now... perhaps that'll be different (until we have another or something, lol.) 

You and I are at very different life stages.  My kids are all grown and out of the house; I'm working very part time tutoring and otherwise just doing things like reading, learning yet more foreign languages, and exercising to keep my mind and body active and not turn into a calcified fossil. I'm a bit worried I might just be old enough to be your mother. 😱  I have a friend exactly my age who has a preschool-aged grandchild...

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

You and I are at very different life stages.  My kids are all grown and out of the house; I'm working very part time tutoring and otherwise just doing things like reading, learning yet more foreign languages, and exercising to keep my mind and body active and not turn into a calcified fossil. I'm a bit worried I might just be old enough to be your mother. 😱  I have a friend exactly my age who has a preschool-aged grandchild...

Hah, well, my mom is in her late 50s, but then she had kids on the Russian schedule -- she had me at 23. 

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Hah, well, my mom is in her late 50s, but then she had kids on the Russian schedule -- she had me at 23. 

Well, yeah, I'm dead-on mid-50s, so probably just about old enough if I'd started early...  (in reality I had my first kids at 33, so ...).  My dh is older than your mom. 😱

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Well, yeah, I'm dead-on mid-50s, so probably just about old enough if I'd started early...  (in reality I had my first kids at 33, so ...).  My dh is older than your mom. 😱

I had my first at 27 🙂 . So that helps, too 😉 . 

My DH is 8 years older than me, though. 

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I had my first at 27 🙂 . So that helps, too 😉 . 

My DH is 8 years older than me, though. 

Yeah, my dh is 6 years older, which is why he beats your mom... 😂

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, my dh is 6 years older, which is why he beats your mom... 😂

The Russian schedule was bizarre, lol. Everyone had a kid in their early 20s, and then mostly, they were done. No space for other kids in the communal apartments! (There was barely space for one kid..)