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What can we, as individual US citizens do to improve the division (non-political)


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I probably shouldn’t jump in, but I think I see a nuance that I’d like to be looked at.   Let me start with saying, I am ideologically inclines to support BLM.  I supported Kappernack’s kneeling, I understand the message behind Defund the Police.  
But I find everything surrounding BLM to be very confusing. It’s a movement, not an organization. But there is an organization, but it’s corrupted and doesn’t really represent the movement. The founders of the movement are farther left than the protesters, so they either do or do not speak for the movement?  There’s a website, but it’s not real?  I can only learn about it properly from people within it, but I have no way to really identify those people it seems, bc some of those within the movement don’t understand it properly. It’s confusing.  I’m confused about it.  I support the idea, I support the movement, but I find it hard to follow.  Every time I try to learn about, it goes in these same circles.   It feels like super secret knowledge that I’m not cool enough to understand.  
 

If I find it confusing and I’m a liberal, progressive democrat who has never been inclined toward the Republican Party, I imagine people who don’t pay attention are even worse off. 
 

For example, I have a podcast queued up with an interview with one of the women who founded BLM to discuss the important role of black women in the election. From this thread I’m now confused on if she speaks for the movement she co-founded and I’m unsure on if she is one of those lining her pockets instead of helping the movement. 

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19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Look, I don't care what you think of me.  I have 100% given up trying to communicate meaningfully with you.  Just stop talking about me, so that others, who don't know me, don't get the wrong impression.

I don’t think badly of you and I hope you don’t stop trying to communicate with me 😕 . I haven’t been impolite to you and I’m not sure why you’re acting like I’m judging you.

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3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I was specifically originally commenting that I would not like my pastor to be promoting this group--- not racial healing-that is appropriate- but that specific group) It wasn't about banning people from church, segregating schools, hating on anyone, or anything like that.

The pastor wearing it I can guarantee is promoting the concept, not any particular group or organization. I know him well, and racial  justice and healing are important to him, but he is not in anyway socialist or even far left. I think he’s probably more conservative than I am, fwiw, and I am pretty in the middle politically. It’s absolutely a values statement, and not a political statement. 

3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Here is the deal- with silent kneeling or fists raised- they are being done during entertainment times- i.e. NFL, etc.  And what has happened-- NFL, NBA, etc watching has completely plummeted.  I, like many, do not want politics or protests to spoil my enjoyment time, any protests at all-even ones that maybe I would be super supportive of in a different setting- in sports, I want sports.  Save it for protests.  Not sports, concerts, movies, etc/  

I would say I have a hard time understanding this viewpoint at all, because it strikes me as bizarre reading it now, but then I think back to when it first happened with Colin Kaepernick, and I recall that I was hearing the conservative narrative of those events at the time, and at the time I also thought his actions were disrespectful and it was the not the time. I was totally wrong. 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

So this is why "support BLM" concerns people.  Because for many people and organizations, the main "support" they can or do give is monetary support.  Sounds like these very large monetary totals may not be spent in ways that actually improve black lives, justice for all blacks, etc.  So this goes back to my first comment on this topic.

Black lives matter and I would do anything I could to promote better police justice.  But donating money to "BLM" or buying a BLM t-shirt is not happening, at least given what I've learned so far.

I don’t think donating is anywhere near the main support that people can give to the Black lives matter movement.  The simplest thing people can do is to just agree with the statement that Black lives matter. Unfortunately, many prominent figures have made all kinds of verbal contortions to avoid having to say that.  My contribution involved pieces of printer paper glued to cardboard from Amazon boxes and written on with markers to make signs.  It was similar for all those I saw around me. The merchandise I have seen if I wanted to buy something with the slogan is primarily from sellers on places like Etsy who are producing them. 

2 hours ago, SKL said:

It isn't hard to believe at all.

I am certain that most of the people who don't "support BLM" do believe that black lives matter.

I am not sure why some people here don't see the difference.

I think the people who for some reason refuse to say black lives matter when asked – – so obviously not you – – are the ones who have made it so that when someone says they don’t suppport Black lives matter, it certainly makes it sound like they don’t think they do. At least not enough to say it. It’s made worse by the strong association between prominent people who refuse to say that also being people with clearly racist backgrounds. 

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2 minutes ago, kand said:

I think the people who for some reason refuse to say black lives matter when I asked – – so obviously not you – – are the ones who have made it so that when someone says they don’t suppport Black lives matter, it certainly makes it sound like they don’t think they do. At least not enough to say it. It’s made worse by the strong association between prominent people who refuse to say that also being people with clearly racist backgrounds. 

So far, in my "real life," the only people whom I've heard saying they aren't with BLM were people of color, including black people.  They feel BLM does not represent them and only makes their lives more toxic.

As far as white people, I could see people feeling like, why the need to state the obvious?  Black lives matter, the sky is blue, and the grass is green.  Being asked to say the slogan feels like an agenda.

I think messaging to people not in the black community has been done very poorly.  The slogan is also poor IMO as far as communicating with non-black people what they are actually trying to accomplish.  Why not something more specific to the actual trends and policies being protested?  But it's not my business what they choose to call their movement.

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6 minutes ago, kand said:

I would say I have a hard time understanding this viewpoint at all, because it strikes me as bizarre reading it now, but then I think back to when it first happened with Colin Kaepernick, and I recall that I was hearing the conservative narrative of those events at the time, and at the time I also thought his actions were disrespectful and it was the not the time. I was totally wrong. 

The problem with this idea is that it’s not clear when the right time IS. Protests, yes, but only if they don’t have any mayhem, and also don’t block the road or annoy anyone. So, practically speaking, not protests. Definitely not TV shows. Definitely not how we vote, because that’s not the way we should pick our politicians. 

I see that people are advocating local action and outreach, and that seems very commendable. I just don’t know if that’s enough.

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

As far as white people, I could see people feeling like, why the need to state the obvious?  Black lives matter, the sky is blue, and the grass is green.  Being asked to say the slogan feels like an agenda.

So it’s perhaps tragic how important this slogan has become to lots of people. Because it means that a large fraction of the Black population feel like their lives don’t matter to most of the population. At least, that’s what I’m hearing.

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

So it’s perhaps tragic how important this slogan has become to lots of people. Because it means that a large fraction of the Black population feel like their lives don’t matter to most of the population. At least, that’s what I’m hearing.

You need to stop quoting me, and especially stop attempting to paraphrase what I didn't say.

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So, what would people consider legitimate forms of protest?  

Marches with signs and slogans are apparently out, because they might lead to violence or mayhem, even if by outside provocateurs.  

Kneeling while the Anthem is played before an athletic event is unacceptable.  

Apparently even years ago boycotting Coca-Cola products was infuriating.  

Shutting down roads is unacceptable.  

So, what, pray tell, IS an acceptable, reasonable form of protest for the fact that people are BEING KILLED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THEM?  

Because it seems to me, as a white woman who isn't particularly woke but who has witnessed a whole heck of a lot of acts of injustice towards friends of color, that the truth is that there is absolutely no way to protest that is acceptable to white people.  It seems to me that what people want is for people of color to just shut up and meekly take it and not complain.  

Please, show me how I'm wrong.  

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem with this idea is that it’s not clear when the right time IS. Protests, yes, but only if they don’t have any mayhem, and also don’t block the road or annoy anyone. So, practically speaking, not protests. Definitely not TV shows. Definitely not how we vote, because that’s not the way we should pick our politicians. 

 

Always with the put downs and sarcasm.  If you just want to shut down conversation, that’s pretty unfortunate for the OP, who actually wants to figure out what to do, and to discuss it thoughtfully.  

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Just now, Terabith said:

Because it seems to me, as a white woman who isn't particularly woke but who has witnessed a whole heck of a lot of acts of injustice towards friends of color, that the truth is that there is absolutely no way to protest that is acceptable to people.  It seems to me that what people want is for people of color to just shut up and meekly take it and not complain.  

Please, show me how I'm wrong.  

That’s what I’m seeing as well. And I’m not seeing any engagement with that fact.

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

That’s what I’m seeing as well. And I’m not seeing any engagement with that fact.

You’ve read 11 pages of this conversation and you say that?  That is patently false.  There has been tons of engagement with that fact, as well there should be.

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Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

Always with the put downs and sarcasm.  If you just want to shut down conversation, that’s pretty unfortunate for the OP, who actually wants to figure out what to do, and to discuss it thoughtfully.  

I’m not putting anyone down!! I’m just not understanding. How do we signal that we care about this issue in the public sphere? 

I don’t feel angry, or contemptuous,  or sarcastic. I am sorry if it’s reading that way, genuinely sorry. I just feel bewildered. I am not understanding.

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Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

You’ve read 11 pages of this conversation and you say that?  That is patently false.  There has been tons of engagement with that fact, as well there should be.

I’ve seen people state that they think this is an important issue. I’m really really glad about that. I’m also not seeing what a permissible way of signaling support for the issue in the public sphere would be. 

I’m genuinely not understanding. I’m honestly not trying to put anyone down. Is the idea that only local actions are worthwhile? I’m sorry if my guesses are off, I’m just not following.

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3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

That is what you say.  I do not agree and one big reason I do not agree is because I am disabled and getting more so rapidly and it is very hard to think of one as privileged in any way when that is happening.

Maybe you could understand it as a person of color, who is also disabled, might have worse access to health care, be treated differently by doctors, etc, compared to you. 

3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

The only white privilege I get is not one I want at all.  It is one I detest.  That is that some people probably treat me better because I am white.

Yes, that is white privilege. 

What did you think people mean by the phrase?

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I’ve never been much of a sports watcher, but there is a specific sequence, almost at the level of communal/semi-religious ritual, that is involved with watching big sports on TV or in person.   Whether you like it or not, traditionally this has included a singing of the national anthem in a relatively reverent way.  To have that dissed as the beginning of the entire event is jarring.  If the event wasn’t so consistent and ritualized to start with, it wouldn’t have been so jarring to do this.  I can see why that would bother people, and frankly to me it seems like just a cheap shot.

It seems cheap to me to be more concerned about the football game ritual than about the people concerned with police brutality. 

Not wanting politics to upset ones entertainment is like not wanting sit ins to disrupt one's dining, or not wanting bus boycots to disrupt one's daily life, etc. Saying you don't want your entertainment ruined by civil rights is like saying you don't want your lunch ruined by a sit in. 

A protest is, by design, supposed to be jarring. That's the whole point. 

To think one's right to be unbothered by it is more important than other people's right not to be harassed or killed by police is...not something I'd want to admit to. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, what would people consider legitimate forms of protest?  

Marches with signs and slogans are apparently out, because they might lead to violence or mayhem, even if by outside provocateurs.  

Kneeling while the Anthem is played before an athletic event is unacceptable.  

Apparently even years ago boycotting Coca-Cola products was infuriating.  

Shutting down roads is unacceptable.  

So, what, pray tell, IS an acceptable, reasonable form of protest for the fact that people are BEING KILLED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THEM?  

Because it seems to me, as a white woman who isn't particularly woke but who has witnessed a whole heck of a lot of acts of injustice towards friends of color, that the truth is that there is absolutely no way to protest that is acceptable to white people.  It seems to me that what people want is for people of color to just shut up and meekly take it and not complain.  

Please, show me how I'm wrong.  

Bingo.  Your list applies to virtually every social justice movement.  Funny how once the goal is somewhat attained, no one in their right mind wants to go back to the old ways.  I heard some of these objections as a child during Civil Rights Movement. By the way, I admired Kapernick taking a stand against police brutality regardless of what song being performed.  If I recall correctly, Kapernick received a lukewarm apology about three years too late.

 

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33 minutes ago, kand said:

The pastor wearing it I can guarantee is promoting the concept, not any particular group or organization. I know him well, and racial  justice and healing are important to him, but he is not in anyway socialist or even far left. I think he’s probably more conservative than I am, fwiw, and I am pretty in the middle politically. It’s absolutely a values statement, and not a political statement. 

I would say I have a hard time understanding this viewpoint at all, because it strikes me as bizarre reading it now, but then I think back to when it first happened with Colin Kaepernick, and I recall that I was hearing the conservative narrative of those events at the time, and at the time I also thought his actions were disrespectful and it was the not the time. I was totally wrong. 

I don’t think donating is anywhere near the main support that people can give to the Black lives matter movement.  The simplest thing people can do is to just agree with the statement that Black lives matter. Unfortunately, many prominent figures have made all kinds of verbal contortions to avoid having to say that.  My contribution involved pieces of printer paper glued to cardboard from Amazon boxes and written on with markers to make signs.  It was similar for all those I saw around me. The merchandise I have seen if I wanted to buy something with the slogan is primarily from sellers on places like Etsy who are producing them. 

I think the people who for some reason refuse to say black lives matter when asked – – so obviously not you – – are the ones who have made it so that when someone says they don’t suppport Black lives matter, it certainly makes it sound like they don’t think they do. At least not enough to say it. It’s made worse by the strong association between prominent people who refuse to say that also being people with clearly racist backgrounds. 

Candace Owens is not a racist.  Neither is Thomas Sowell or many others who are not part of the Black Lives Matter movement but are, in fact, black.  

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19 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, what would people consider legitimate forms of protest?  

Marches with signs and slogans are apparently out, because they might lead to violence or mayhem, even if by outside provocateurs.  

Kneeling while the Anthem is played before an athletic event is unacceptable.  

Apparently even years ago boycotting Coca-Cola products was infuriating.  

Shutting down roads is unacceptable.  

So, what, pray tell, IS an acceptable, reasonable form of protest for the fact that people are BEING KILLED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THEM?  

Because it seems to me, as a white woman who isn't particularly woke but who has witnessed a whole heck of a lot of acts of injustice towards friends of color, that the truth is that there is absolutely no way to protest that is acceptable to white people.  It seems to me that what people want is for people of color to just shut up and meekly take it and not complain.  

Please, show me how I'm wrong.  

People can protest,  I can also think it is stupid,.  Both of us have that right.  I am much more interested in actual actions to improve lives.  Protests don;t do that.

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ve seen people state that they think this is an important issue. I’m really really glad about that. I’m also not seeing what a permissible way of signaling support for the issue in the public sphere would be. 

I’m genuinely not understanding. I’m honestly not trying to put anyone down. Is the idea that only local actions are worthwhile? I’m sorry if my guesses are off, I’m just not following.

OK, sorry.

There are people who have talked about what is worthwhile and effective, and there are people who have described things that threw shade on the BLM reputation in response to a couple of people asking why anyone would not support it—remember?  That was the genesis of this, and my sense is that everyone involved was pretty much just saying, OK, I might not feel this way but here is why someone else might.  

Regarding acceptable protests—to me protests don’t really accomplish much but they can be very satisfying.  Blocking freeways is extremely dangerous for everyone—the protesters, the traffic, first responders (a very serious issue here in CA where we have Big Fast Fires because we literally have no rain half the year), and law enforcement, and frankly it seems pretty self-indulgent to me and awfully big risk/little payoff.  I think that peaceful marches are just great, and to the extent that they are large and show a demonstrable preponderance of views, they can send a really good signal.  I don’t care all that much whether they are permitted or not unless they block freeways or major thoroughfares, but if they do, they need more prep and occupants need more warning.  I went to Berkeley and I saw shit get coopted constantly so I tend to assume that that’s where things land after the first one or two incidents, because I have seen it so often, but hey, whatever, and sometimes you just want to speak out and that’s your right as an American.

Looting being defended?  Give me a break.   We are not talking about food for the starving here.  Not defensible, and throws shade on the rest.  Attacking cars of bystanders just trying to get home?  Not good.  Burning down buildings?  Totally counterproductive.  

I get why the sports thing bothers people, and described that before.

I think local organizing, speaking out about actual facts to people who genuinely don’t know them, and political organizing are more effective than anything else except prayer, charity, reconciliation, and other church related Christian things that have an outsized result when they are done right with the right spirit.  

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Candace Owens is not a racist.  Neither is Thomas Sowell or many others who are not part of the Black Lives Matter movement but are, in fact, black.  

I think the point was lots of racists do associate themselves with anti-BLM thought. Obviously, not everyone who doesn’t support the movement is an old school racist (like, thinks Black people are inferior.) I would guess that not a single person on this thread is racist in that sense, which is a lovely thing about this community 🙂 .

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33 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem with this idea is that it’s not clear when the right time IS. Protests, yes, but only if they don’t have any mayhem, and also don’t block the road or annoy anyone. So, practically speaking, not protests. Definitely not TV shows. Definitely not how we vote, because that’s not the way we should pick our politicians. 

I see that people are advocating local action and outreach, and that seems very commendable. I just don’t know if that’s enough.

Just to make abundantly clear, I was saying my initial thoughts about it were dead wrong.  I don’t watch football at all, so when I first heard some commentary on it that was negative, I agreed with that.  In learning more about how it came about and what the purpose was, my thoughts are entirely different. And I especially agree that if we go with this idea that protest should never be disruptive or uncomfortable or inconvenient, things will never change. Like it or not, doing police ride-alongs, or meeting privately with community leaders, or any of the other suggested things are highly unlikely to effect any systemic change. These discussions the past few years always bring me back to MLK Jr’s letter from Birmingham Jail. It’s as timely now as it was when it was written: https://letterfromjail.com

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2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think local organizing, speaking out about actual facts to people who genuinely don’t know them, and political organizing are more effective than anything else except prayer, charity, reconciliation, and other church related Christian things that have an outsized result when they are done right with the right spirit.  

So, let me make sure I understand. You like the idea of local organizing and political organizing. I would actually agree with that 🙂 . What would you like the local and political organizations to focus on as a goal? I’d make some suggestions for what I’ve gathered from the thread, but I’m afraid that I’ll get it wrong and that I’ve misunderstood. Would police reform be a reasonable goal?

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11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Maybe you could understand it as a person of color, who is also disabled, might have worse access to health care, be treated differently by doctors, etc, compared to you. 

Yes, that is white privilege. 

What did you think people mean by the phrase?

It seems cheap to me to be more concerned about the football game ritual than about the people concerned with police brutality. 

Not wanting politics to upset ones entertainment is like not wanting sit ins to disrupt one's dining, or not wanting bus boycots to disrupt one's daily life, etc. Saying you don't want your entertainment ruined by civil rights is like saying you don't want your lunch ruined by a sit in. 

A protest is, by design, supposed to be jarring. That's the whole point. 

To think one's right to be unbothered by it is more important than other people's right not to be harassed or killed by police is...not something I'd want to admit to. 

 

You care about what you care about and I care about what I care about?  How about I want to reserve a time to destress???? Sports was for that.  News and reading articles and twitter is for becoming informed.  And I think it is super rich for multimillionaire athletes to be telling the rest of us what we should care about--- how about I actually put my money where my mouth is- i.e. I support all sorts of iniatives and actual donations to help underprivileged with education, with health, etc.  I can want to reserve my free entertainment time to be protest free and that doesn't make me insensitive or racist or uncaring or anything.  It just means I want protest free entertainment.  And apparently, so do most people.

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2 minutes ago, kand said:

Just to make abundantly clear, I was saying my initial thoughts about it were dead wrong.  I don’t watch football at all, so when I first heard some commentary on it that was negative, I agreed with that.  I’m learning more about how it came about and what the purpose was, my thoughts are entirely different. And I especially agree now that if we go with this idea that protest should never be disruptive or uncomfortable or inconvenient, things will never change. Like it or not, doing police ride-alongs, or meeting privately with community leaders, or any of the other suggested things are highly unlikely to effect any systemic change. These discussions the past few years always bring me back to MLK Jr’s letter from Birmingham Jail. It’s as timely now as it was when it was written: https://letterfromjail.com

I have actually personally found the nationwide movement eye-opening. I didn’t realize how entrenched the racism was until I heard people speaking out and saw the videos. Ignorant of me, I know. 

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Just now, TravelingChris said:

You care about what you care about and I care about what I care about?  How about I want to reserve a time to destress???? Sports was for that.  News and reading articles and twitter is for becoming informed.  And I think it is super rich for multimillionaire athletes to be telling the rest of us what we should care about--- how about I actually put my money where my mouth is- i.e. I support all sorts of iniatives and actual donations to help underprivileged with education, with health, etc.  I can want to reserve my free entertainment time to be protest free and that doesn't make me insensitive or racist or uncaring or anything.  It just means I want protest free entertainment.  And apparently, so do most people.

And how is that different from a person during the civil rights era saying they just want to enjoy their lunch in peace, and destress, and not have to deal with a sit in? Or is it?

And can't one just turn on the game 5 minutes later, if the sight of someone kneeling is so upsetting? 

For me, the issue is that there is police brutality, not that I'm being reminded of it for a few minutes during a 4 hour entertainment event. But if it was that upsetting why not just skip that part?

 

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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the point was lots of racists do associate themselves with anti-BLM thought. Obviously, not everyone who doesn’t support the movement is an old school racist (like, thinks Black people are inferior.) I would guess that not a single person on this thread is racist in that sense, which is a lovely thing about this community 🙂 .

well I don't follow racists on twitter or have friends who are racists or follow white supremacists or habit those types of forums, etc so I have no idea which racists are associating themselves with anti-BLM.  I hardly know the names of any racists- Richard Spencer, I believe is one, and David Dukes, if he is still alive and we had or maybe still have some legislator here in my state that seems to be one but I haven't heard anything of what any of them feel about BLM nor would I care what they have to say because I do not associate with racists, as much as possible.

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16 minutes ago, annandatje said:

Bingo.  Your list applies to virtually every social justice movement.  Funny how once the goal is somewhat attained, no one in their right mind wants to go back to the old ways.  I heard some of these objections as a child during Civil Rights Movement. By the way, I admired Kapernick taking a stand against police brutality regardless of what song being performed.  If I recall correctly, Kapernick received a lukewarm apology about three years too late.

 

It reminds me of a passage in the book Cheaper By the Dozen.  The mother doesn't believe in spanking, but at that time and place, saying that would have been seen as radical and unreasonable.  So every time the father went to spank one of their children, she objected to the part of the body he was spanking.  "Not at the tip of the spine!  I don't know where, but definitely not at the tip of the spine!"

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10 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

People can protest,  I can also think it is stupid,.  Both of us have that right.  I am much more interested in actual actions to improve lives.  Protests don;t do that.

This goes back again to Letter from Birmingham Jail. Truly, I encourage  anyone who hasn’t read it in the last year or two to do so. It’s worthwhile. https://letterfromjail.com

13 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Candace Owens is not a racist.  Neither is Thomas Sowell or many others who are not part of the Black Lives Matter movement but are, in fact, black.  

I’m trying to remember the name of this technique. The holding up of those who are outlying members of a group as if they were representatives of it. White folks love to trot out Candace Owens. She doesn’t get to represent all Black people just because she’s Black. 

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Just now, ktgrok said:

And how is that different from a person during the civil rights era saying they just want to enjoy their lunch in peace, and destress, and not have to deal with a sit in? Or is it?

And can't one just turn on the game 5 minutes later, if the sight of someone kneeling is so upsetting? 

For me, the issue is that there is police brutality, not that I'm being reminded of it for a few minutes during a 4 hour entertainment event. But if it was that upsetting why not just skip that part?

 

I don't know about everyone else, since there are millions who have turned out.  I find the   NFL organization to be one that I do not support for a number of reasons, including their cowtowing to BLM, but not limited to that issue alone.  There are other sports, with less commercials and no politics----- I prefer those.

And I do not understand why you keep insisting that I want segregation like there was at the time of the lunch counter protests?????  No, I am not a segregationist at all.  No, I had no issue with lunch counter protests, etc in the original civil rights protests.  I just do not think that kneeling or raising fists or what have you in protest at a football game does anything to stop any police haraassment or brutality or whatever.  I think it is a idiotic protest, with a whole lot of posturing and divisiveness---- like what about the players who don't want to kneel??? Some want to support veterans or active duty or law enforcement (who are under great fire and have been assassinated all too frequently in the last year)  Who do you think actually suffers from police defunding???? It isn\'t people with money- who hire guards, build expensive fences, buy expensive weapons, buy the increasingly expensive ammo, etc..   It is the poor- who are much more likely to be crime victims.

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Super hard for me to pick just one quote from MLK Jr‘s letter, but I’ll put this one here, for those who aren’t going to click through and read the whole thing, which is what I really hope people will do.

You may well ask, “Why direct action, why sit-ins, marches, and so forth? Isn’t negotiation a better path?” You are exactly right in your call for negotiation. Indeed, this is the purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and establish such creative tension that a community that has consistently refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.”— Martin Luther King, Junior

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

And I do not understand why you keep insisting that I want segregation like there was at the time of the lunch counter protests????? 

She is not saying that. She’s saying that if you don’t want your life disrupted by protests, you would have probably disapproved of the tactics from back then. It’s easy enough to approve now that your life isn’t being affected.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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16 minutes ago, kand said:

Just to make abundantly clear, I was saying my initial thoughts about it were dead wrong.  I don’t watch football at all, so when I first heard some commentary on it that was negative, I agreed with that.  In learning more about how it came about and what the purpose was, my thoughts are entirely different. And I especially agree that if we go with this idea that protest should never be disruptive or uncomfortable or inconvenient, things will never change. Like it or not, doing police ride-alongs, or meeting privately with community leaders, or any of the other suggested things are highly unlikely to effect any systemic change. These discussions the past few years always bring me back to MLK Jr’s letter from Birmingham Jail. It’s as timely now as it was when it was written: https://letterfromjail.com

I say first do a ride along,  Then find out your local pd procedures, etc.  If you disagree with them, lobby your representatives to change what you don't like, if this is your issue.  Run for office, do petitions, etc.  Get involved in the syste,;     There is no Ch

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Just now, TravelingChris said:

I say first do a ride along,  Then find out your local pd procedures, etc.  If you disagree with them, lobby your representatives to change what you don't like, if this is your issue.  Run for office, do petitions, etc.  Get involved in the syste,;    

 

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17 minutes ago, kand said:

This goes back again to Letter from Birmingham Jail. Truly, I encourage  anyone who hasn’t read it in the last year or two to do so. It’s worthwhile. https://letterfromjail.com

I’m trying to remember the name of this technique. The holding up of those who are outlying members of a group as if they were representatives of it. White folks love to trot out Candace Owens. She doesn’t get to represent all Black people just because she’s Black. 

Of course she doesn't represent all black people.  No one does.  And all blacks aren't Democrats either.  As tge recent election showed, 16 % voted for the R candidate.  But then, I am not like the racist D candidate who declared that "you ain't black" if you don't vote Dem..

But BLM doesn't represent all blacks either.  Not black police nor many non police too.

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

I really don't believe anything unless I've seen the underlying primary documentation.  For example, when all the news sources are talking about what Document X said, I will go and read Document X from beginning to end, and I'll also check to make sure it's the same Document X on all the links, because people can doctor Document X.

If I see an iffy video clip, I will try to find the original whole video and get as close as I can to the entire statement without cuts.  But even then, there could be cuts that I'm not aware of.

I check a variety of news sources, especially if something flags my BS filter, which has been developing over 54 years.  If none of the other sources conflicts and something still seems hard to believe, I will ask on a board with a large mix of people.  For example, months ago, I heard that a certain Gov had decided that Covid-positive patients must be put back into the nursing homes they lived in, resulting in many additional infections and deaths.  This sounded too outrageous to be true, so I checked around, and found nothing to dispute it.  Then I came on this board and posted it with the question:  "is this true?"  Turns out it was true.

Hope that helps.

I think it’s great that you read a variety of sources and use primary sources when available, not everyone has the time or inclination to do so. But I would be interested in the names of the variety of sources you use, I might discover a new good one. Also, in your use of a variety of sources, do you think there are any that are generally reliable and relatively unbiased and center? If you had to recommend one or two sources to a friend with limited time or on those days when you are short on time, what are your go to media sources for national and international news? I’ll share mine, the WSJ and BBC print online. I despise all TV news and rarely listen to the radio. When time permits, I also read The NY Times, which I fully acknowledge is left of center, and I use a state library news clips compilation for state and local news. 
 

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you, that is not my intent. But often when people on these boards complain about the MSM, they don’t give alternatives or say which media sources they use and trust the most. Except that a few people have said they prefer right wing talk radio, especially for local news.

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4 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Of course she doesn't represent all black people.  No one does.  And all blacks aren't Democrats either.  As tge recent election showed, 16 % voted for the R candidate.  But then, I am not like the racist D candidate who declared that "you ain't black" if you don't vote Dem..

But BLM doesn't represent all blacks either.  Not black police nor many non police too.

16% is, for the record, a small number. I think it’s safe to say that Black support for Democrats is very high.

No one represents everyone, it’s true. But again, support for BLM is high, and I think there is a good number of people for whom the movement strikes a real chord. And I do find that tragic.

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16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She is not saying that. She’s saying that if you don’t want your life disrupted by protests, you would have probably disapproved of the tactics from back then. It’s easy enough to approve now that your life isn’t being affected.

Since I was actually living in the South at that time and have already spoken how O was against segregation at that time, z lot of you are just trying to slur me as a racist .  I didn't have to be woke like you to injustice - I knew about all sorts of injustices from sn early age.  

The fact that I think I believe in some different policy issues than you does not make me a racist, traditional or not.  Nor does it make others racists just because they have other concerns they are more interested in.

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

16% is, for the record, a small number. I think it’s safe to say that Black support for Democrats is very high.

No one represents everyone, it’s true. But again, support for BLM is high, and I think there is a good number of people for whom the movement strikes a real chord. And I do find that tragic.

It is the highest for a Republ8csn candidate in modern times

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6 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think it’s great that you read a variety of sources and use primary sources when available, not everyone has the time or inclination to do so. But I would be interested in the names of the variety of sources you use, I might discover a new good one. Also, in your use of a variety of sources, do you think there are any that are generally reliable and relatively unbiased and center? If you had to recommend one or two sources to a friend with limited time or on those days when you are short on time, what are your go to media sources for national and international news? I’ll share mine, the WSJ and BBC print online. I despise all TV news and rarely listen to the radio. When time permits, I also read The NY Times, which I fully acknowledge is left of center, and I use a state library news clips compilation for state and local news. 
 

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you, that is not my intent. But often when people on these boards complain about the MSM, they don’t give alternatives or say which media sources they use and trust the most. Except that a few people have said they prefer right wing talk radio, especially for local news.

Right now I don't know of any that are unbiased.

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5 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think it’s great that you read a variety of sources and use primary sources when available, not everyone has the time or inclination to do so. But I would be interested in the names of the variety of sources you use, I might discover a new good one. Also, in your use of a variety of sources, do you think there are any that are generally reliable and relatively unbiased and center? If you had to recommend one or two sources to a friend with limited time or on those days when you are short on time, what are your go to media sources for national and international news? I’ll share mine, the WSJ and BBC print online. I despise all TV news and rarely listen to the radio. When time permits, I also read The NY Times, which I fully acknowledge is left of center, and I use a state library news clips compilation for state and local news. 
 

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you, that is not my intent. But often when people on these boards complain about the MSM, they don’t give alternatives or say which media sources they use and trust the most. Except that a few people have said they prefer right wing talk radio, especially for local news.

I read everything from WaPo to NyT to WSj, NY Post, al.com, Federalist, Reuters. AFP. VOA, Reason. Etc etc etc.  

I don't listen to talk radio, conservative or liberal.

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We should all be sure to focus on the 1.5/10 black voters who voted a certain way, hang on their every word, for insight into the larger community. Got it. SMH. It’s amazing how much insight one can glean from peering in the windows of someone else’s house.

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7 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Since I was actually living in the South at that time and have already spoken how O was against segregation at that time, z lot of you are just trying to slur me as a racist .  I didn't have to be woke like you to injustice - I knew about all sorts of injustices from sn early age.  

The fact that I think I believe in some different policy issues than you does not make me a racist, traditional or not.  Nor does it make others racists just because they have other concerns they are more interested in.

During the sit-ins? You were in the South then? Sorry, just making sure I am understanding.

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