Help for a History (and reading) Hater

[YaelAldrich]

I have been tutoring a 4th grader (held back a year but needed it) who is my youngest's best friend (a 6th grader) in all subjects. He comes to me after a half day in a Jewish parochial school. He has an IEP which I've studied and I've spoken to the group that helps him outside the classroom. I don't see any of the behaviors that get him in trouble in the classroom. He's a good kid who's been let down by the system IMHO.

He's gotten used to me expecting him to do schoolwork with the exception of history (and reading in general). I don't know why but he will not easily read books or be read to and do history with me. He exclaims that is boring and resists learning it. I've tried multiple methods through SOTW and just reading books about historical subjects. Even the Horrible History series is anathema to him!  I've walked him through reading exercises to make sure he can read well and he is reading on grade level. His mother says he reads at home (Harry Potter, Dog Man, Nate) and seems to be able to answer comprehension questions to them. When I ask comprehension questions he can't/won't answer. If I use short, short paragraphs, he can sometimes give the appropriate response.

I'm stumped. None of my four kids acted like this over 14 years of homeschooling. Any suggestions or advice?

[Rosie_0801]

Have you spoken to him about reasons why history study is useful or important? I've known a few younger people who couldn't see the point. I think the problem was their inability to sense cause and effect, or something like that.

[YaelAldrich]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Have you spoken to him about reasons why history study is useful or important? I've known a few younger people who couldn't see the point. I think the problem was their inability to sense cause and effect, or something like that.

I have done that multiple times. His best friend (my son) tried too. My children found history interesting at least and fun for most of them. My children are also willing readers where this child isn't (at least in my home or by my direction). 

[Rosie_0801]

Being Jewish has a huge amount of history built in. Maybe that's enough? 🤷‍♀️

His reading tastes sound like they lean towards escapism, whereas history is grounding. Maybe it's just the opposite of what he needs from books.

 

[YaelAldrich]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Being Jewish has a huge amount of history built in. Maybe that's enough? 🤷‍♀️

His reading tastes sound like they lean towards escapism, whereas history is grounding. Maybe it's just the opposite of what he needs from books.

 

Yeah but since the school doesn't explicitly or really implicitly teach history, I feel like I need to step up since I'm teaching him all his secular subjects. The only things I can get him to read willingly are Guinness record books and even those he's not really reading, more like looking at the pictures and skimming. I don't torture my kids with reading comprehension activities because if they do narrations I see they get the ideas. I don't want to belabor the point with this kid especially since he has such a bad taste in his mouth from education.

[Rosie_0801]

How does he go with historical movies?

[Melissa in Australia]

would  him doing a history related activity while you read work?

Can you use history literature for narrations? 

[Ausmumof3]

I used to have my kids draw the chapter while I read to them.  If he likes drawing or lego you could have him draw or build the scenes as a form of narration.  My dd kind of likes acting things out from history too but my boys dont.

[Ausmumof3]

Maybe he has trouble dealing with anything in the form of a narrative?  

[PeterPan]

Yup, narrative language deficits. Also, the low reading level of the material he's choosing shows he probably has language issues. 

If you wanted to bust the lid off this, he should have full SLP evals for language (which the ps SHOULD have done and didn't) and audiology for APD. Did the school go ahead and diagnose ADHD? It's comorbid so often it's not funny. 

For the SLP eval, they can test narrative language and make IEP goals. It's actually a HUGE issue in the ps right now, because as you're seeing narrative language affects so much. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  This is the method you want to use to intervene. If you watch their videos and read the blog enough, you don't necessarily *have* to buy anything to intervene. It's a method and they have great organizers, but you can figure a lot out for yourself. If you only want to spend a *small* amount, I would get just their fiction and nonfiction mini magnets set. 

The other thing you'll notice as you learn about narrative language is that *emotions* play a big part in the critical thinking triangle. So if he has any issues with social thinking, self awareness, etc., these are going to show up.

Grade retention is not an evidence based practice and it gives them an excuse not to solve the real problems. The school should have owned narrative language testing and gotten it done. Our ps bought it after we came in with ds' evals, but they STILL don't run it. Sometimes you really have to fight.

Another reason people (like me!) don't engage with history is that it's very peopley (as in who cares, doesn't connect to my interests) and fractal-like, never ending. The fractal like nature of history is what history lovers LIKE but it drives me CRAZY. So for people like that, you're looking to connect to their specific interests (baseball, cooking, comics, anything) in a WEM fashion, where you look at his interest across time rather than saying he has to be interested in stuff the book says. It's a totally valid way of covering history!

And you also try to get them the BIG PICTURE. He may not realize events were happening at the same time. He may not have a framework in his mind to plug data into. The VP history cards are FABULOUS for this, because you learn 36 cards or whatever (32? I forget, haha) and suddenly you "know" history about a time period. So anything that involves outlines, limited data schematics, something that helps him get to the gestalt can help. 

My ds has narrative language issues, and he struggles to retell a story. History is inherently stories, so it's obvious why a person with narrative language deficits would struggle, lol. It also shows up in how he interacts with Bible lessons, literature, and day to day events, so it's not just history. It's how you know the narrative language is a component, when it's showing up even when you change sources/topics.

Another thing to consider is attention and language processing. Those need evals, proper evals beyond what it sounds like the ps did, but in the meantime there are supports you can do, giving him the questions ahead of time, letting him have visual input as well as auditory, etc. 

Does he enjoy school? That's pretty brave of him to sit down and work with you after a hard day of school struggles. Ah, he's in school ½ day. The private school is allowed to AMEND his IEP and add goals. I suggest you work with them to get better evals and improved goals. If you can get an SLP to identify the narrative language issues and other language issues, those goals could be added across the curriculum to get added benefit. The MW/SGM materials will come with both fiction and nonfiction options, so his science teachers, etc. can be working on it. 

On the behavior, if he has language issues (especially auditory processing), those would show up in a classroom but not be as much of an issue in your home. It's very concerning that he isn't getting the evals to get these issues identified and treated. No child WANTS to have behaviors, and you'd like him to be able to feel as well and be as self-regulated in school as he is in smaller settings.

[theelfqueen]

Is there a historical sub topic that could catch attention ... maybe spies or swords and weapons  or history of science or history of computers or aircraft or cooking? Sometimes it helps to start with something really narrow and then broaden it. 

Have you tried graphic novels? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by theelfqueen

[Not_a_Number]

On 11/2/2020 at 8:45 AM, PeterPan said:

Yup, narrative language deficits. Also, the low reading level of the material he's choosing shows he probably has language issues. 

Except he reads Harry Potter at home...

Try a movie and see if he gets more interested.

Actually, DD8 only seems to have gotten into history after using the world’s snarkiest books (the Time Traveler books I’ve posted about.) 

I’d also check his reading ability yourself with books he likes and see if you agree with his mom.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[almondbutterandjelly]

Horrible Histories videos are pretty awesome.  Maybe that would work better than the books.

[Carol in Cal.]

If he reads Harry Potter, he would probably enjoy historical fiction novels, and they are an excellent way to learn history.

 

[kristin0713]

What is the IEP for? 

It does strike me as odd that he is so resistant to reading AND being read to yet reads Harry Potter.  That doesn't add up to a language issue or learning disability.  Unless he is skimming HP or not really reading it much at all.  

What kinds of things do you do with him that are successful?

For a more interesting approach to history, maybe try biographies or a unit study approach that includes historical information.  Some ideas -- inventions; world geography / countries and cultures; US geography; history of science; government / world government systems.  

[City Mouse]

This may not be a popular idea, but what about taking a break from history for a while and focus on current events or soemthing like economics?

When studying the “why” of current events, it is sort of a back door into history. 

[kiwik]

On 11/5/2020 at 4:15 AM, City Mouse said:

This may not be a popular idea, but what about taking a break from history for a while and focus on current events or soemthing like economics?

When studying the “why” of current events, it is sort of a back door into history. 

I agree.  History is wonderful and important but not for him right now.  How would he feel about physical geography instead, mostly facts and figures but you can slip in a little history/social geography.  

[kbutton]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:24 PM, YaelAldrich said:

His mother says he reads at home (Harry Potter, Dog Man, Nate) and seems to be able to answer comprehension questions to them. When I ask comprehension questions he can't/won't answer. If I use short, short paragraphs, he can sometimes give the appropriate response.

I'm stumped. None of my four kids acted like this over 14 years of homeschooling. Any suggestions or advice?

 

On 11/1/2020 at 10:49 PM, YaelAldrich said:

The only things I can get him to read willingly are Guinness record books and even those he's not really reading, more like looking at the pictures and skimming. I don't torture my kids with reading comprehension activities because if they do narrations I see they get the ideas.

My son was like this, and it ended up being a narrative language deficit, specifically with critical thinking. He needed not only the Critical Thinking Triangle materials from Mindwings, but the Making Connections book. He didn't use cohesive ties particularly well either (he could if we was specifically told to combine sentences--his sentence structure and variety was great in isolated ways), but when the critical thinking piece was fixed, then he was able to use the ties spontaneously (though it started out tentative). 

On 11/3/2020 at 1:52 PM, kristin0713 said:

It does strike me as odd that he is so resistant to reading AND being read to yet reads Harry Potter.  That doesn't add up to a language issue or learning disability.  Unless he is skimming HP or not really reading it much at all.  

That is a false flag. On paper, my son's testing at 3rd grade was at high school level. What he could read for fun and enjoy varied a lot. The tip-off was that he was STUCK there forever and ever. His reading never improved past 3rd grade. His language issue was VERY narrow, very hard to figure out, and was not found until he was 13. The area he struggled with (narrative language and linking up his logic to abstract language) was narrow but very profound. He could look at a picture and not tell you a plausible explanation for what was happening in that picture. He is profoundly gifted, so he found ways around this problem and used language in novel ways to compensate. 

He also recognized the language he needed when he would dialog with people and then be able to kind of reassemble things in the right order, but it was very frustrating for him. He would have to say he had a problem, then state a bunch of facts. He literally could not say, I have this problem because this happened, and this is what I need. This was at age 13 with super high language scores on the WISC, Woodcock Johnson, and on most language testing.

A trip through Mindwing materials will not hurt any child. If you want the overall philosophy, this is a great tool: https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/deepening-discourse-and-thought-3?_pos=7&_sid=427c941af&_ss=r

Otherwise, they have kind of a general level of product to start with (Storygrammar for younger kids, Thememaker for older kids), and then you can dig into specific concepts with lots of side products (such as Critical Thinking Triangle set or the Making Connections book).

One of the reasons the program works is that it digs in and looks for holes. Another reason is the consistency of the icons and ideas--they use the same icons to go from little kid concepts that are concrete to abstract concepts that allow for college level discourse.

[kbutton]

On 11/3/2020 at 1:52 PM, kristin0713 said:

It does strike me as odd that he is so resistant to reading AND being read to yet reads Harry Potter.  That doesn't add up to a language issue or learning disability.  Unless he is skimming HP or not really reading it much at all.  

BTW, when I say this is a false flag, I don't mean that in an insulting way at all. I believed this line of thinking with my son for years, and it kept me from getting adequate help for him. Believe me, I knew he had issues, but I would've never guessed language was one of them. At one point in time, due to other issues, such as convergence problems, we thought language was his intact area of learning, lol! We fixed vision, tried ADHD meds, and an update to the WISC that removed some residual language from the non-verbal sections, and we learned just how wrong we were--his nonverbal scores when from sort of gifted to maxing out the test. 

Without some significant digging (hard to do without specialized SLP testing and the right SLP), or a trip through some remediation materials, issues like this can hide.

[kiwik]

If he is only reading Harry potter at that level though it may not indicate he is truly reading at that level.  He may know the story so well be can just read parts.

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, kiwik said:

If he is only reading Harry potter at that level though it may not indicate he is truly reading at that level.  He may know the story so well be can just read parts.

Yeah, DD8 read Harry Potter at age 5, and I have to say, she wasn't following it like she does nowadays. She still enjoyed it (no thanks to her kindergarten teacher, who decreed it "not developmentally appropriate" and didn't let her read it), but it was a very different experience.