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It seems Europe didn't do any better


SereneHome
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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

We have skyrocketing numbers and everyone is following the mask mandate in public.   The spread is in-home gatherings and workplaces where, even if masked, people are spending hours in close proximity.  Places like grocery stores and restaurants aren’t contributing to the spread. 

The question is WHY people are having in-home gatherings? I doubt people are masking there. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. I know what you mean. It's one thing when people have different values (and we don't match on all values, as you know), but I wish people wouldn't have their own facts. 

I got into a FB thing with a cousin yesterday. He was trying to claim that something happened at a political event that did not. He said he heard from "others" that it did. I had seen 5 different news articles backing my point, he had nothing. But he ended the argument by saying that I can believe what I want, and he can believe what he wants. Which I suppose is true, but whatever happened to wanting to believe reality? This is where we are now. 

That was the final straw for me--I have finally uninstalled FB from my phone. (I also realized this same cousin had never once commented or reacted in any way when I posted about my horrible divorce, but was right there ready to jump in to defend someone when there was a negative (true) story about him. I'm sick of people treating FB like a personal battleground but never being there when you need encouragement). 

But I digress. Lately I've started using a condom analogy when talking to anti-maskers. Condoms are not 100% foolproof-you can still have an unwanted pregnancy or catch something if you use one. But does that mean you should avoid using one completely? 

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Just now, Happymomof1 said:

Because they love their family and want to see them like we will be doing in a few weeks. There will be 10 of us from 7 different households.

I get it. I really do. And we'll also be seeing our family, but we're also all quarantining otherwise. Because if you're in an area of rising cases, and people aren't working from home, then right now, the best way to show your love may be to socialize outside as much as possible. 

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So...to address few of the comments

*I* never said nothing should have been done - I said that regardless of whatever response was chosen - it wouldn't have been well accepted by half and hard to implement.

I think saying that message should have been A or B or C - is easy to say now. No one knew what this thing was, how it was being transmitted or who it was effecting the most.

So, again, what concrete plan should have happened that didn't happen? Realistic, enforceable plan.

Oh and the only reason I brought up Europe is bc at the beginning there were people posting about how the rest of the world handled it so well and we didn't. If it wasn't on this board but in my other SM places - let me know and I will ask mods to delete this thread.

 

 

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Just now, SereneHome said:

So, again, what concrete plan should have happened that didn't happen? Realistic, enforceable plan.

I did suggest a plan, lol. But again, I want to see how it goes in NY, because it's clear that people aren't taking evidence from other places that did that seriously. 

 

Just now, SereneHome said:

Oh and the only reason I brought up Europe is bc at the beginning there were people posting about how the rest of the world handled it so well and we didn't. If it wasn't on this board but in my other SM places - let me know and I will ask mods to delete this thread.

No, I saw that here, and I argued with people saying that, lol. It was a vast oversimplification. 

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16 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

So...to address few of the comments

*I* never said nothing should have been done - I said that regardless of whatever response was chosen - it wouldn't have been well accepted by half and hard to implement.

I think saying that message should have been A or B or C - is easy to say now. No one knew what this thing was, how it was being transmitted or who it was effecting the most.

So, again, what concrete plan should have happened that didn't happen? Realistic, enforceable plan.

Oh and the only reason I brought up Europe is bc at the beginning there were people posting about how the rest of the world handled it so well and we didn't. If it wasn't on this board but in my other SM places - let me know and I will ask mods to delete this thread.

 

 

1) It would have been accepted if our leaders came together, as they did after 9.11, with a unified message. That was not done here for political reasons. But, you know, here's to immunity (for however long that lasts)!

2) Other nations have implemented extensive policy programs, so I disagree that anything would be difficult for our country if we have the will of the people. But, when you choose to divide vs unite us, then of course policies will fail.

3) Our leadership knew this was an airborne virus very early on and still continues to tell people that Purell is going to save the day. 

 

Edited by SeaConquest
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2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Yep, you right. Let's just mandate masks, people are sheep. Until it goes against their personal pleasure!

https://news.yahoo.com/wedding-birthday-party-infect-56-120537435.html

So....Cuomo was praised on how he handled NY, clear message from the top, great actions and here we are.

Well, to be fair, I'm mostly seeing really good compliance here. 

You aren't going to get 100% whatever you do. But there's a stark difference between 90% and 10%. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 hour ago, Amy in NH said:

I'd like to know how many of the members here stating that COVID response in the US has been okey-dokey are also "pro-life".

Your question felt a bit out of left field to me. But I've been avoiding these threads and the news in general so idk if I'm missing context. Or was this a rhetorical question and dig ? Sincerely confused by the tone. I'm not ok with the Covid response and am pro-life. IDK what this means in the scheme of things. 

52 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

OK, let's hear it. Step by step approach of what should have been done  - but again, don't forget the human factor. So your approach needs to include enforcement of whatever measures you think would have helped. In US, country of 300M, with vary diverse geography and demographic. And the mind  of the "free people".

...

0. Not comparing it to the flu. Like, this is the basis for a ton of bad decision making and communication. 

1. Mask encouragement starting as early as possible. I think the first official "please use masks" happened in April, or was it May? If from that point on, all officials backed masking, including wearing them, that would have been a big deal. There will be people who don't comply, but the number of people who don't comply would be much, much lower, and for different reasons than currently.

2. Closing of bars and nightclubs. Changes to restaurants and gyms hours/seating depending on safety measures. 

3. Continuing to message/encourage going out as necessary, and not full families going to run errands together just to be together. I saw this messaging drop off really quickly here.

4. More financial support from government for the people. This helps in two ways: staving off economic collapse (offsetting loss of jobs and income) as well as making people not as desperate to do risky behavior (go into obviously risk-spreading areas for financial reasons).  I'm not able to get into a whole debate of what this looks like right now. But if you believe that the government has given as much aid as it should and/or is able to, I think we don't have anything to discuss anyway.

5. Clear instructions on how to get tested, when to get tested, along with faster turnaround on testing. This may not be an issue in some places, but when AZ was having its spike in the summer, people were waiting over 2 weeks for their test results.

6. Contact tracing; I don't have as much of a mental comprehension on how this has gone, but at least what we are doing and there are probably improvements.

I'm not including enforcement because I think the enforcement we have now  + consistent messaging from the top down = sufficient to make vast improvement to our situation. Last time I went shopping at the grocery store there were *12* people without masks (3 families, 4 loners, I didn't count kids too young to drive). This was a not-small % of the full people there, maybe between 20-30%. Of these 12, 8 were wearing shirts/paraphernalia that were political. Yes, there will always be counter-culturalists. No, we would not have as many people flouting the mandate if the people they followed/idolized were wearing masks, especially if they were told wearing masks was their patriotic duty or somesuch.

Basically -- hindsight is 20/20, we didn't know at the beginning that outdoor activities were safer (but perhaps not as safe as we are acting now). So I'm just trying to state things that seemed to make sense in the original timeline, not using a time machine to give new information to old me.

If you think consistent messaging, not downplaying it as a flu (not saying you need to scaremonger either), encouragement from all quarters to wear masks and to avoid unnecessary contact, and financial help to those affected by job loss wouldn't make a difference in the number of deaths, well, ?.

 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Massachusetts now technically needs to be on NY's quarantine list, except it's not practical! Just in time for us to go up to Boston, sigh. 

I visit https://rt.live/us/MA daily. I like it because it shows the new cases AND the testing volume. In Maine yesterday, we had one of our highest new case counts since March, yet the testing wasn't too high. So we're having less testing, more cases. Uh oh. 

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1 minute ago, Kanin said:

I visit https://rt.live/us/MA daily. I like it because it shows the new cases AND the testing volume. In Maine yesterday, we had one of our highest new case counts since March, yet the testing wasn't too high. So we're having less testing, more cases. Uh oh. 

You might want to keep track of positivity: 

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/individual-states/usa

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8 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Yep, you right. Let's just mandate masks, people are sheep. Until it goes against their personal pleasure!

https://news.yahoo.com/wedding-birthday-party-infect-56-120537435.html

So....Cuomo was praised on how he handled NY, clear message from the top, great actions and here we are.

 

Well let me put it another way. I choose not to attend social gatherings (haha not really, I'm not invited to social gatherings). I still need to go to the grocery store once a week, that is something I have no control over. But I have a choice to shop in the state where there is a mask mandate or the state where there is not. I will always choose the state with the mandate because I actually value my personal health as well as the health of my family. 

So the mask mandate makes a difference for those of us who believe in science and that this isn't a hoax. It helps us avoid becoming infected when we are out doing the things we HAVE to do. We are already actively avoiding optional social gatherings.

It may not make a difference for those who choose not to believe in science because they are gonna do what they're gonna do. But at least I can avoid going to a party if I don't want to be infected. 

Edited by OH_Homeschooler
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3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

1. Mask encouragement starting as early as possible. I think the first official "please use masks" happened in April, or was it May? If from that point on, all officials backed masking, including wearing them, that would have been a big deal. There will be people who don't comply, but the number of people who don't comply would be much, much lower, and for different reasons than currently.

Exactly. And if ONE more person on the news says, "WELL, back in MARCH, the CDC said we didn't have to wear masks!" I'm gonna lose it.

We didn't know in March that masking was essential, but over the past months, we've LEARNED NEW THINGS. I don't understand why people just don't say that.

"Now that we've been studying COVID for eight months, we know that wearing masks is extremely important."

😬

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This is the kind of clear visual messaging that should have been done early on. No politics, just science, demonstrated in a way that everyone could understand in a unified nonpartisan way:

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html

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1 minute ago, Kanin said:

Exactly. And if ONE more person on the news says, "WELL, back in MARCH, the CDC said we didn't have to wear masks!" I'm gonna lose it.

We didn't know in March that masking was essential, but over the past months, we've LEARNED NEW THINGS. I don't understand why people just don't say that.

"Now that we've been studying COVID for eight months, we know that wearing masks is extremely important."

😬

Or worse, "The CDC keeps changing its mind."

NO IT DOES NOT! There was one change, months and months ago. They explained everything. They retracted. They've been consistent ever since. 

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Just now, OH_Homeschooler said:

Or worse, "The CDC keeps changing its mind."

NO IT DOES NOT! There was one change, months and months ago. They explained everything. They retracted. They've been consistent ever since. 

Yep. It's so dishonest. 

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26 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Because they love their family and want to see them like we will be doing in a few weeks. There will be 10 of us from 7 different households.

I want to do this, too. I love and miss my family and friends so much.

But I'm too afraid that one of them will be hospitalized, or die, from COVID that could spread at an indoor gathering. It's very hard to stay away.

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22 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

Your question felt a bit out of left field to me. But I've been avoiding these threads and the news in general so idk if I'm missing context. Or was this a rhetorical question and dig ? Sincerely confused by the tone. I'm not ok with the Covid response and am pro-life. IDK what this means in the scheme of things. 

0. Not comparing it to the flu. Like, this is the basis for a ton of bad decision making and communication. Wasn't it called Wohun flu originally by Chinese?

1. Mask encouragement starting as early as possible. I think the first official "please use masks" happened in April, or was it May? If from that point on, all officials backed masking, including wearing them, that would have been a big deal. There will be people who don't comply, but the number of people who don't comply would be much, much lower, and for different reasons than currently. Originally it was thought to be more of a contact thing that's why everything was being wiped down.

2. Closing of bars and nightclubs. Changes to restaurants and gyms hours/seating depending on safety measures. It happened pretty quickly. People were upset about loosing jobs and income (posters on this board included)

3. Continuing to message/encourage going out as necessary, and not full families going to run errands together just to be together. I saw this messaging drop off really quickly here. That was done

4. More financial support from government for the people. This helps in two ways: staving off economic collapse (offsetting loss of jobs and income) as well as making people not as desperate to do risky behavior (go into obviously risk-spreading areas for financial reasons).  I'm not able to get into a whole debate of what this looks like right now. But if you believe that the government has given as much aid as it should and/or is able to, I think we don't have anything to discuss anyway. How much financial support? Bc many people got money for their dead relatives and many business who lost no income got $$ as well

5. Clear instructions on how to get tested, when to get tested, along with faster turnaround on testing. This may not be an issue in some places, but when AZ was having its spike in the summer, people were waiting over 2 weeks for their test results. The capacity for massive testing doesn't happen over night, so even with instructions - it's a hard thing to do

6. Contact tracing; I don't have as much of a mental comprehension on how this has gone, but at least what we are doing and there are probably improvements. People didn't want to comply - the whole invasion of privacy thing.

I'm not including enforcement because I think the enforcement we have now  + consistent messaging from the top down = sufficient to make vast improvement to our situation. Last time I went shopping at the grocery store there were *12* people without masks (3 families, 4 loners, I didn't count kids too young to drive). This was a not-small % of the full people there, maybe between 20-30%. Of these 12, 8 were wearing shirts/paraphernalia that were political. Yes, there will always be counter-culturalists. No, we would not have as many people flouting the mandate if the people they followed/idolized were wearing masks, especially if they were told wearing masks was their patriotic duty or somesuch.

Basically -- hindsight is 20/20, we didn't know at the beginning that outdoor activities were safer (but perhaps not as safe as we are acting now). So I'm just trying to state things that seemed to make sense in the original timeline, not using a time machine to give new information to old me.

If you think consistent messaging, not downplaying it as a flu (not saying you need to scaremonger either), encouragement from all quarters to wear masks and to avoid unnecessary contact, and financial help to those affected by job loss wouldn't make a difference in the number of deaths, well, ?.

 

I think that US is in a unique country. I think that fact that we have federal and state govts makes is super difficult to get unity and consensus in something that was so unknown. Things were changing very rapidly and I think hate and distrust for Trump was making things even more difficult. I think people are angry but I think the anger is misplaced. I think this has been a horrible situation that will have a ripple effect for years, if not generations to come, regardless of what was done in the beginning.  I know I am in a minority in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, SereneHome said:

I think that US is in a unique country. I think that fact that we have federal and state govts makes is super difficult to get unity and consensus in something that was so unknown. Things were changing very rapidly and I think hate and distrust for Trump was making things even more difficult. I think people are angry but I think the anger is misplaced. I think this has been a horrible situation that will have a ripple effect for years, if not generations to come, regardless of what was done in the beginning.  I know I am in a minority in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I hope you know that I’m very honest about my internal workings and I hold myself accountable. My response to this has nothing to do with my feelings about Trump. Nothing. I actually thought they’d do the right stuff. I was floored by this.

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49 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

So...to address few of the comments

*I* never said nothing should have been done - I said that regardless of whatever response was chosen - it wouldn't have been well accepted by half and hard to implement.

I think saying that message should have been A or B or C - is easy to say now. No one knew what this thing was, how it was being transmitted or who it was effecting the most.

So, again, what concrete plan should have happened that didn't happen? Realistic, enforceable plan.

Oh and the only reason I brought up Europe is bc at the beginning there were people posting about how the rest of the world handled it so well and we didn't. If it wasn't on this board but in my other SM places - let me know and I will ask mods to delete this thread.

 

Yes, I recall many posts about how well Europe was doing compared to the US.  I remember posts regarding how many places in Europe were back in school in May and June with posters commenting that was because Europeans were wearing masks.  Now, there are many posts about how Europe is doing poorly with some commenting about how it is because Europeans aren't wearing masks.  So, it is interesting how the dialogue changes.  It seems that the outcomes drive people's assumptions about the behavior of the people, often without much knowledge of what the behavior of the people is actually is.  

It is easy to fifth-quarter quarterback.  But, I think it it is much too early to even be doing that; if we are eight months away from a vaccine that is highly effective and widely distributed (and my personal opinion is that is optimistic) we are just approaching half time--so fifth quarter quarterbacking can't even begin.  If we are approaching half-time some strategies can be analyzed--but some countries have had their backs to the wind while others have faced the wind.  The same is true for various states within the US.  

And, when all is said and done, I do not think that a sole measure of how well the pandemic was handled should be the number of deaths/population of a country.  Life, health, and communities are much more complex.  

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure: 

1) A careful explanation from up high how this all works. So, good public health messaging that doesn't confuse people. Right now, people are getting extremely mixed messaging and it's not working. 

2) Distributing good masks, like N95s. I think mandates aren't a bad idea, but honestly, l think if you did good messaging and distributed masks, the need would be much lower.  

3) TONS of testing, quick contact tracing. Selective shutting down of things that drive super-spreader events. (So, bars, for example. Probably restaurants need to be at partial capacity.) 

4) Local severe and brief lockdowns for when positivity goes too high, to keep things under control. 

I think all of those are currently out of reach, because they require not having GOTTEN mixed messaging already. Plus, there's a serious lack of management. 

I'm very curious how NY does in the winter. It's trying at least some of these things, although clearly not others. So I'm going to treat it as an experiment. 

I'm honestly not super interested in debating this list. We should talk in a few months, after we see how things go. 

If I'm understanding the OP correctly, she was asking how it should have been done--back in Feb or March. Numbers 2 and 3 would have been impossible at that time. I'm surprised travel bans are not on your list--between states, countries, etc. What are your thoughts on travel? 

I firmly believe the CDC knew masks would be effective even in March. I believe this because even in the beginning, if you read (past tense) the recs closely, they definitely advocated for masking sick individuals in a household to protect caregivers. I believe the only reason they said masks were not necessary was because there were none to be had. I'm not saying the CDC was wrong to do this...I'm just not buying that they didn't know better at the time.

Edited by popmom
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1 minute ago, popmom said:

If I'm understanding the OP correctly, she was asking how it should have been done--back in Feb or March. Numbers 2 and 3 would have been impossible at that time. I'm surprised travel bans are not on your list--between states, countries, etc. What are your thoughts on travel? 

I firmly believe the CDC knew masks would be effective even in March. I believe this because even in the beginning, if you read (past tense) the recs closely, they definitely advocated for masking sick individuals in a household to protect caregivers. I believe the only reason they said masks were not necessary was because there were none to be had. 

Actually, if they had worked on masks and testing back in January, which they could have done, they could have probably been distributing them and testing a lot in March. The CDC isn’t the entity that can ramp up mask and test production, though. That takes people higher up. 

That’s a good point about travel restrictions, although I don’t know if they are effective with a country like the US. Perhaps not a bad idea, though, or some mandatory quarantine.

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14 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think that US is in a unique country. I think that fact that we have federal and state govts makes is super difficult to get unity and consensus in something that was so unknown. Things were changing very rapidly and I think hate and distrust for Trump was making things even more difficult. I think people are angry but I think the anger is misplaced. I think this has been a horrible situation that will have a ripple effect for years, if not generations to come, regardless of what was done in the beginning.  I know I am in a minority in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Austria and Germany are both federal republics. This isn't rocket science, but it isn't easy either. It's leadership that listens to epidemiologists and has a sustained commitment to doing what is necessary to advance public health (vs to bolster Wall Street, to win an election, to appease special interests, etc.) until a vaccine is distributed.  

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Actually, if they had worked on masks and testing back in January, which they could have done, they could have probably been distributing them and testing a lot in March. The CDC isn’t the entity that can ramp up mask and test production, though. That takes people higher up. 

That’s a good point about travel restrictions, although I don’t know if they are effective with a country like the US. Perhaps not a bad idea, though, or some mandatory quarantine.

The US did implement travel ban from China on Jan 31. Not sure what bans are currently in place.

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24 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think that US is in a unique country. I think that fact that we have federal and state govts makes is super difficult to get unity and consensus in something that was so unknown. Things were changing very rapidly and I think hate and distrust for Trump was making things even more difficult. I think people are angry but I think the anger is misplaced. I think this has been a horrible situation that will have a ripple effect for years, if not generations to come, regardless of what was done in the beginning.  I know I am in a minority in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

How does hate and mistrust for Trump make his followers the most likely to not be following guidelines and protesting masking and mandates and even suing to get them overturned? How does hate and mistrust of Trump lead to Republican leaders in places like WI fighting the Democrat Governor every step of the way? Even being a hotspot they are fighting in court to get mask mandates overturned. How does hate and mistrust for Trump lead some Christian leaders to defy and protest guidelines for churches all the while saying you must vote for Trump? Talk about trying to completely shift blame for all of the death and suffering to the other side. Wow, that is some serious cognitive dissonance.

 

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3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, either way half would be unhappy, but one course of action leads to way less dead people.  So I pick the one with equal unhappy but less dead.  Why pick the other way?

And of course there are things that can be done.  Or why are the Asian countries doing so much better?

No.  We have a US Constitution and we could not do a national lockdown. It is against the Constitution because it is a right left to the states. Most of the high numbers of deaths were early on when no one knew what to do, medically to treat the patients and also the abhorent policies of some governors to return Covid patients back to nursing homes and assisted living after they were still infectious. 

There is still so much we don't know/  And the hesitation people have in doing what is actually necessary in contact tracing was not pol;itically based.  The way to do that is through cell phones but too many people on the right, center and left don't want to do that. 

And no COVID is not political===My Republican gov and some other R govs have done the right thing.  Some R govs not so much.  The same goes for D govs who did it right and did it wrong/

 

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Most of the high numbers of deaths were early on when no one knew what to do, medically to treat the patients and also the abhorent policies of some governors to return Covid patients back to nursing homes and assisted living after they were still infectious. 

This seems to have become some sort of statement that doesn’t die. Are places that aren’t returning folks to nursing homes actually having fewer deaths? Because I’m pretty skeptical.

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

No.  We have a US Constitution and we could not do a national lockdown. It is against the Constitution because it is a right left to the states. Most of the high numbers of deaths were early on when no one knew what to do, medically to treat the patients and also the abhorent policies of some governors to return Covid patients back to nursing homes and assisted living after they were still infectious. 

There is still so much we don't know/  And the hesitation people have in doing what is actually necessary in contact tracing was not pol;itically based.  The way to do that is through cell phones but too many people on the right, center and left don't want to do that. 

And no COVID is not political===My Republican gov and some other R govs have done the right thing.  Some R govs not so much.  The same goes for D govs who did it right and did it wrong/

 

I have seen regular people make it very political. Whenever someone is calling someone else a sheep for wearing a mask or following governmental advice, it is always a Trump supporter doing the name calling. Have you not encountered that?  

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2 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

No.  We have a US Constitution and we could not do a national lockdown. It is against the Constitution because it is a right left to the states. Most of the high numbers of deaths were early on when no one knew what to do, medically to treat the patients and also the abhorent policies of some governors to return Covid patients back to nursing homes and assisted living after they were still infectious. 

There is still so much we don't know/  And the hesitation people have in doing what is actually necessary in contact tracing was not pol;itically based.  The way to do that is through cell phones but too many people on the right, center and left don't want to do that. 

And no COVID is not political===My Republican gov and some other R govs have done the right thing.  Some R govs not so much.  The same goes for D govs who did it right and did it wrong/

 

The response to the virus has become political. Just because there is a mix of R and D governors doing right or wrong, however you personally define that, does not mean it hasn’t been politicized.

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

The question is WHY people are having in-home gatherings? I doubt people are masking there. 

They aren’t masking at home.  Public health leaders here keep asking for people to stop hanging out with each other, but I honestly don’t see that stopping. Almost everyone I know is still planning big family Thanksgiving dinners.

I do think pandemic fatigue is a lot of it.  These are people who wouldn’t have considered a get together over Easter, but people either have or know someone who has lost a family member(Covid or not) that they didn’t get to see for months before the passing. I know one family who’s mother passed in a nursing home in her sleep(did not die of Covid) and they hadn’t seen her in six months. That’s a big consideration for a lot of people; my own grandmother isn’t likely to live another year either, Covid or not.  I think fatigue and there is a dawning realization that Covid isn’t going away for a long time, and people locally are deciding just to live their lives and continue on with family celebration. 

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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

They aren’t masking at home.  Public health leaders here keep asking for people to stop hanging out with each other, but I honestly don’t see that stopping. Almost everyone I know is still planning big family Thanksgiving dinners.

I do think pandemic fatigue is a lot of it.  These are people who wouldn’t have considered a get together over Easter, but people either have or know someone who has lost a family member(Covid or not) that they didn’t get to see for months before the passing. I know one family who’s mother passed in a nursing home in her sleep(did not die of Covid) and they hadn’t seen her in six months. That’s a big consideration for a lot of people; my own grandmother isn’t likely to live another year either, Covid or not.  I think fatigue and there is a dawning realization that Covid isn’t going away for a long time, and people locally are deciding just to live their lives and continue on with family celebration. 

I mean, I understand prioritizing seeing family that’s older. We’re doing that, too. But I wouldn’t have a large gathering now.

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2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well, I am not saying Europe handled this great either.  That was in response to "I think people want magic solutions".  Magical thinking to me is "this is no big deal and I'm just going to ignore it and magically we'll just hit herd immunity and as long as me and mine are unscathed I don't care". 

I watched my college student's campus of 40K+ go from a break out of 3000+ to less than 1% positivity with increased investment in test and contact tracers and having adequate quarantine space.  Numbers are bouncing up a little because that state is a super hot spot right now but we will see if they can hold until Thanksgiving.  In fact the CDC visited to see how they are running it.  Every student who accesses campus next semester will be tested twice a week.  Anyway - these measures work.  

 

I wonder if with 3,000+ cases the students themselves start taking it more seriously.

We have an “outbreak” at an area university, but despite similar measures as you describe, it does not seem to be coming into control.  OTOH the actual case numbers are much lower and maybe it still does not seem “real” to many of the students. 

It is in a “blue” state with a “liberal” leaning uni—so more a kid/young adult student thing afaik than anything political. 

 

 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I understand prioritizing seeing family that’s older. We’re doing that, too. But I wouldn’t have a large gathering now.

I wouldn’t, either. We’ll have thanksgiving, but we’ve seen my parents and in-laws several times a week anyway since they care for our kids when we work.  But there won’t be extra people there(we have small celebrations anyway).  But a lot of people are, and locally, that’s where the spread is coming from.  I haven’t seen my grandmother in two weeks since I was exposed and, if my Covid test today comes back positive, I won’t see her until I get a negative, even though I’m almost 10 days after beginning symptoms and public health tells me I won’t be contagious. I don’t trust that enough because I honestly don’t think we know enough yet about Covid.

But I absolutely believe as time goes on, people are going to decide this is long term and continue to increase making choices that involve seeing other people. 

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7 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I have seen regular people make it very political. Whenever someone is calling someone else a sheep for wearing a mask or following governmental advice, it is always a Trump supporter doing the name calling. Have you not encountered that?  

On my FB(not representative, I know) the name calling is from both party sides.  I just keep snoozing people.

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1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

But I absolutely believe as time goes on, people are going to decide this is long term and continue to increase making choices that involve seeing other people. 

I’m currently hoping a vaccine and better treatment help. I figure that the longer I wait, the better. And at some point, we’ll have at home tests.

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12 minutes ago, Frances said:

How does hate and mistrust for Trump make his followers the most likely to not be following guidelines and protesting masking and mandates and even suing to get them overturned? How does hate and mistrust of Trump lead to Republican leaders in places like WI fighting the Democrat Governor every step of the way? Even being a hotspot they are fighting in court to get mask mandates overturned. How does hate and mistrust for Trump lead some Christian leaders to defy and protest guidelines for churches all the while saying you must vote for Trump? Talk about trying to completely shift blame for all of the death and suffering to the other side. Wow, that is some serious cognitive dissonance.

 

I have no idea what Trump's followers do. I do know that on here and on my other  SM places people are blaming Trump for handling this wrongly from the beginning. I think it's misguided, for the reasons I have stated repeatedly.

I actually think it's much much more important how it is being handled now and for the next 6 months. 

Anywhoooo, I don't think I have anything new to say at this point. I have not seen any plans or ideas that would make me reconsider my opinion. I keep seeing the same emotional sentiments that I have seen over the last 6 months....

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Just now, SereneHome said:

I have no idea what Trump's followers do. I do know that on here and on my other  SM places people are blaming Trump for handling this wrongly from the beginning. I think it's misguided, for the reasons I have stated repeatedly.

I actually think it's much much more important how it is being handled now and for the next 6 months. 

Anywhoooo, I don't think I have anything new to say at this point. I have not seen any plans or ideas that would make me reconsider my opinion. I keep seeing the same emotional sentiments that I have seen over the last 6 months....

Well, I offered plans... 

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2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I know, I didn't think any of that was feasible or would have helped, but you wanted to wait and see. Let's wait and see 🙂

Well, some of it was done. NY had better messaging and does have higher mask compliance. NYC still heavily limits restaurant capacity. NY has more testing than lots of places.

I don’t know if it’s enough, but it’s not like it’s all pie in the sky. Right now, some areas in NY are under restriction. So they are trying this plan.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Actually, if they had worked on masks and testing back in January, which they could have done, they could have probably been distributing them and testing a lot in March. The CDC isn’t the entity that can ramp up mask and test production, though. That takes people higher up. 

That’s a good point about travel restrictions, although I don’t know if they are effective with a country like the US. Perhaps not a bad idea, though, or some mandatory quarantine.

From what I remember, we did not have a positive case identified in the US until Jan 21 and at the end of January there were 6 positive confirmed cases in the US. Given the information that people had at that time, I don't see how it would have been reasonable to ramp up testing and mask production.  We knew it was a serious illness, but it appeared that China was able to contain the virus spread.  From our experience with SARS and Ebola, we have been able to control exposure to small numbers in the US.  

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Just now, Bootsie said:

From what I remember, we did not have a positive case identified in the US until Jan 21 and at the end of January there were 6 positive confirmed cases in the US. Given the information that people had at that time, I don't see how it would have been reasonable to ramp up testing and mask production.  We knew it was a serious illness, but it appeared that China was able to contain the virus spread.  From our experience with SARS and Ebola, we have been able to control exposure to small numbers in the US.  

I think the information from Asia was concerning enough that the intelligence community knew enough. SARS and Ebola didn’t spread like COVID and that was obvious in January. 
 

Also, frankly, masks and testing are a heck of a lot cheaper than what did happen. 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the information from Asia was concerning enough that the intelligence community knew enough. SARS and Ebola didn’t spread like COVID and that was obvious in January. 
 

Also, frankly, masks and testing are a heck of a lot cheaper than what did happen. 

What did the intelligence community, or medical profession, really know about COVID and its spread in January?  It seems as if a lot of the early information was about it spreading on surfaces.   Did they have an idea at the time regarding the length of time from exposure to exhibiting symptoms?  Whey people were most contagious?  Did they have knowledge about asymptomatic transmission?  Those are all things that have made COVID more difficult to curtail (and has made wider-spread testing important).  I remember talking to doctors who were treating COVID patients as late as May who were still unsure a lot about the spread of COVID.  

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16 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

On my FB(not representative, I know) the name calling is from both party sides.  I just keep snoozing people.

I am guessing the names that are called are different, based on where the people are coming from politically. 

I blocked a lot of people on a Covid stats page I was following. The people I tended to block kept calling the virus a hoax and were often very belligerent. They continuously insulted the person running the page, who was just doing it as a sort of hobby-creating maps based on numbers reported on the state reporting site. Some people demanded the page runners reveal who they were, and they were afraid to because they'd been getting threats. I felt it was misguided because like I said, this was a hobby and they never claimed to be officials of any sort. I just didn't understand why a) the deniers were so angry at the numbers, and b) why they were following a page like that in the first place, other than to troll. Or they would accuse them of not sharing certain stats on purpose, even though what they could do on a daily basis was limited. I did start out trying to discuss things with the deniers but they tended to meltdown, post a stupid gif, call me an idiot or sheep or uneducated...and discussions went nowhere.  

Anyhow, every day I would find new people to block and I didn't understand why there were always new ones. But like I said upthread, I have given up on FB completely. It is a source of frustration and sadness now, nothing more. 

 

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50 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I have no idea what Trump's followers do. I do know that on here and on my other  SM places people are blaming Trump for handling this wrongly from the beginning. I think it's misguided, for the reasons I have stated repeatedly.

I actually think it's much much more important how it is being handled now and for the next 6 months. 

Anywhoooo, I don't think I have anything new to say at this point. I have not seen any plans or ideas that would make me reconsider my opinion. I keep seeing the same emotional sentiments that I have seen over the last 6 months....

I posted an entire 10+ minute video showing exactly what was done in Taiwan that made them so successful. Plus, an article from the LA Times discussing why San Francisco has done so well. How can you say that you haven't seen any plans?

Here is another from the WSJ about the difference between Asia and the West. We know what to do. We just need the leadership to get us there.

https://www.wsj.com/video/why-east-asia-is-beating-the-west-in-controlling-coronavirus/ED49686C-2174-43BC-BA51-0B1F8BAACA78.html

Edited by SeaConquest
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2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I posted an entire 10+ minute video showing exactly what was done in Taiwan that made them so successful. How can you say that you haven't seen any plans?

Here is another from the WSJ about the difference between Asia and the West. We know what to do. We just need the leadership to get us there.

https://www.wsj.com/video/why-east-asia-is-beating-the-west-in-controlling-coronavirus/ED49686C-2174-43BC-BA51-0B1F8BAACA78.html

Ah, the WSJ, a bastion of radial leftism... 

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