It seems Europe didn't do any better

[SereneHome]

I know many people are super upset how US govt handled Covid. I always said that there weren't many things that could have improved the situation. Well, it seems that Covid is back in Europe and it's getting worse.

I never considered this a political issue, I just always thought that when you have a global pandemic in today's day and age - where people travel so easily - there is nothing any individual country could have done.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/europe-struggling-2nd-surge-covid-090144459.html

[YaelAldrich]

11 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I know many people are super upset how US govt handled Covid. I always said that there weren't many things that could have improved the situation. Well, it seems that Covid is back in Europe and it's getting worse.

I never considered this a political issue, I just always thought that when you have a global pandemic in today's day and age - where people travel so easily - there is nothing any individual country could have done.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/europe-struggling-2nd-surge-covid-090144459.html

Nothing?!? Nothing at all? 

They haven't worn masks in (most of) Europe, and when you open back up, you get more spread. There ARE things that can be done. There needs to be the political and public health decision to do them. It did go down in Europe because of strict lockdowns. We as a country never did that so we never got a country wide break. We never made it to what Europe had. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by YaelAldrich

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, YaelAldrich said:

Nothing?!? Nothing at all? 

They haven't worn masks in (most of) Europe, and when you open back up, you get more spread. There ARE things that can be done. There needs to be the political and public health decision to do them.

My point was that a lot of people said how horribly US handled it, made it all political. But it seems that Europe didn't do much better either. I've claimed from the beginning that it wasn't a political thing but a human, global thing. There was no way it was going to be contained globally.

[catz]

That is quite a sweeping conclusion based on case counts going up in Europe.  At the end of the day, you need to look at infection and death rates.  You also need to look at hospital loads and if people are able to access care throughout for both covid and non-covid health emergencies.  No one in the science community is surprised by case counts going up.  There is nothing political about it. 

People all over should be appalled there is so little care and concern in a rich first world nation for human life and well being that has led by example in other crises situations.  Other countries doing poorly shouldn't lead us to shrug our shoulders and say "oh well".  Some countries are doing much better.  The current leadership is the one who chose to call very basic and standard public health measures political instead of trying to unify us.   Very different say than the tone of leadership during 9-11 (and that was not an administration I voted for).    

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[YaelAldrich]

5 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

My point was that a lot of people said how horribly US handled it, made it all political. But it seems that Europe didn't do much better either. I've claimed from the beginning that it wasn't a political thing but a human, global thing. There was no way it was going to be contained globally.

It IS being handled horribly.  Full stop.  It would have been terrible to lose anyone to this no matter who is/was in charge.  And yes, every country has and will continue to lose people to this pandemic.  But you cannot honestly say that what the US did is ANYTHING like what South Korea or Japan did in response to what is going on.  My G-d, my Japanese news app just notified me that Japan just hit it's 100,000 case of COVID-19 since the beginning of the pandemic.  Yesterday's tests showed and additional 300 odd new cases in the WHOLE COUNTRY.  We almost hit that positive number in Massachusetts every day right now.  And our state is doing WELL!!!

[SereneHome]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

That is quite a sweeping conclusion based on case counts going up in Europe.  At the end of the day, you need to look at infection and death rates.  You also need to look at hospital loads and if people are able to access care throughout for both covid and non-covid health emergencies.  No one in the science community is surprised by case counts going up.  There is nothing political about it. 

People all over should be appalled there is so little care and concern in a rich first world nation for human life and well being that has led by example in other crises situations.  Other countries doing poorly shouldn't lead us to shrug our shoulders and say "oh well".  Some countries are doing much better.  The current leadership is the one who chose to call very basic and standard public health measures political instead of trying to unify us.   Very different say than the tone of leadership during 9-11 (and that was not an administration I voted for).    

 

Well, it's not my conclusion

And that's my point - it wasn't political.

I never said that.

And many many MANY people were upset how that was handled as well.

And bringing it back to two points I was making for the past 6 months - 1 - there is very little that can be done in global pandemic and 2 -no matter what govt did or didn't do in US, at least half of people would have been extremely unhappy

 

[Matryoshka]

18 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

It IS being handled horribly.  Full stop.  It would have been terrible to lose anyone to this no matter who is/was in charge.  And yes, every country has and will continue to lose people to this pandemic.  But you cannot honestly say that what the US did is ANYTHING like what South Korea or Japan did in response to what is going on.  My G-d, my Japanese news app just notified me that Japan just hit it's 100,000 case of COVID-19 since the beginning of the pandemic.  Yesterday's tests showed and additional 300 odd new cases in the WHOLE COUNTRY.  We almost hit that positive number in Massachusetts every day right now.  And our state is doing WELL!!!

Um, MA's numbers aren't anywhere near that good anymore. ☹️  We've been hitting over 1,000 cases a day, every day, for the past week.  This is NOT good. Positivity has also gone up from 1% ish all summer to over 6%, and I think that's with numbers recalibrated to make things look 'better'.  Ugh.  

Yeah, the whole country of Japan is doing way, way, better than a small US state that's been handling things relatively well.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Matryoshka]

4 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

 2 -no matter what govt did or didn't do in US, at least half of people would have been extremely unhappy

Yeah, either way half would be unhappy, but one course of action leads to way less dead people.  So I pick the one with equal unhappy but less dead.  Why pick the other way?

And of course there are things that can be done.  Or why are the Asian countries doing so much better?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Matryoshka

[SereneHome]

7 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

It IS being handled horribly.  Full stop.  It would have been terrible to lose anyone to this no matter who is/was in charge.  And yes, every country has and will continue to lose people to this pandemic.  But you cannot honestly say that what the US did is ANYTHING like what South Korea or Japan did in response to what is going on.  My G-d, my Japanese news app just notified me that Japan just hit it's 100,000 case of COVID-19 since the beginning of the pandemic.  Yesterday's tests showed and additional 300 odd new cases in the WHOLE COUNTRY.  We almost hit that positive number in Massachusetts every day right now.  And our state is doing WELL!!!

You can't compare Japan's and South Korea's geography and demographics with US.

I am not going to keep arguing the same thing over and over.

I think people want magic solutions and I think it's naive to think that "if only" we did this or did that....And that applies to US and worldwide. And I think it's natural for people wanting to place their anger somewhere.

[YaelAldrich]

3 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Well, it's not my conclusion

And that's my point - it wasn't political.

I never said that.

And many many MANY people were upset how that was handled as well.

And bringing it back to two points I was making for the past 6 months - 1 - there is very little that can be done in global pandemic and 2 -no matter what govt did or didn't do in US, at least half of people would have been extremely unhappy

 

Once again, the public health response is political.  The way our GOVERNMENTAL agencies tackle any public health problem is sadly guided by politics.

[SereneHome]

Just now, YaelAldrich said:

Once again, the public health response is political.  The way our GOVERNMENTAL agencies tackle any public health problem is sadly guided by politics.

And money. It has always been this way. I started watching Totally Under Control on HULU yesterday...I shouldn't have started before going to bed....

[YaelAldrich]

3 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

You can't compare Japan's and South Korea's geography and demographics with US.

I am not going to keep arguing the same thing over and over.

I think people want magic solutions and I think it's naive to think that "if only" we did this or did that....And that applies to US and worldwide. And I think it's natural for people wanting to place their anger somewhere.

G-d be with you and have mercy on all of us.

[Not_a_Number]

So to be fair, I have ALWAYS been utterly unimpressed with how Europe did. The whole "lockdown, then no serious measures" thing was always going to bite them. (You can no longer find my posts from June saying this, but I did say that.)

So, yes, they had the same summer advantage as the Northeast -- the summers are nice, people are outside more. And they squandered it, just like the US did. 

I've only really been impressed with Asia's and New Zealand's handling of things. They've been proactive instead of reactive, and they've instituted measures ahead of time. The only reason I'm annoyed the US didn't do that is that I think we had more resources and more preparation for it. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

14 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Um, MA's numbers aren't anywhere near that good anymore. ☹️  We've been hitting over 1,000 cases a day, every day, for the past week.  This is NOT good. Positivity has also gone up from 1% ish all summer to over 6%, and I think that's with numbers recalibrated to make things look 'better'.  Ugh.  

Yeah, the whole country of Japan is doing way, way, better than a small US state that's been handling things relatively well.

Massachusetts now technically needs to be on NY's quarantine list, except it's not practical! Just in time for us to go up to Boston, sigh. 

[catz]

There is absolutely nothing magic about social distancing, robust testing availability, tracing, quarantining those exposed, and masking.   

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

There is absolutely nothing magic about social distancing, robust testing availability, tracing, quarantining those exposed, and masking.   

But it's true that Europe didn't do it, either 😛 . And they really should have. 

[YaelAldrich]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Massachusetts now technically needs to be on NY's quarantine list, except it's not practical! Just in time for us to go up to Boston, sigh. 

We (MA) just got put on CT's red state list. NY will ban us soon.  Not that it will stop anyone.

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Massachusetts now technically needs to be on NY's quarantine list, except it's not practical! Just in time for us to go up to Boston, sigh. 

Like Yael, I had still thought the numbers were still lower - it's nice and comfy to think that you're in a relatively safe spot - but I saw that on the news last night and double-checked before posting.  And really, last I had checked the positivity was still 1.something with the 'new' calculations.  Oh crap, and All the Bad Words.

I know Baker had stern words for young house partiers, which is supposedly where this is coming from, but think more than stern words will be needed...

[catz]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

But it's true that Europe didn't do it, either 😛 . And they really should have. 

Well, I am not saying Europe handled this great either.  That was in response to "I think people want magic solutions".  Magical thinking to me is "this is no big deal and I'm just going to ignore it and magically we'll just hit herd immunity and as long as me and mine are unscathed I don't care". 

I watched my college student's campus of 40K+ go from a break out of 3000+ to less than 1% positivity with increased investment in test and contact tracers and having adequate quarantine space.  Numbers are bouncing up a little because that state is a super hot spot right now but we will see if they can hold until Thanksgiving.  In fact the CDC visited to see how they are running it.  Every student who accesses campus next semester will be tested twice a week.  Anyway - these measures work.  

[Amy in NH]

I'd like to know how many of the members here stating that COVID response in the US has been okey-dokey are also "pro-life".

 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well, I am not saying Europe handled this great either.  That was in response to "I think people want magic solutions".  Magical thinking to me is "this is no big deal and I'm just going to ignore it and magically we'll just hit herd immunity and as long as me and mine are unscathed I don't care". 

I watched my college student's campus of 40K+ go from a break out of 3000+ to less than 1% positivity with increased investment in test and contact tracers and having adequate quarantine space.  Numbers are bouncing up a little because that state is a super hot spot right now but we will see if they can hold until Thanksgiving.  In fact the CDC visited to see how they are running it.  Every student who accesses campus next semester will be tested twice a week.  Anyway - these measures work.  

Oh, yeah, I don't agree that people want magic solutions. The frustrating thing for me, as an observer, is that someone like me, who has a math background but no epidemiological training, had a pretty good sense of how this ought to be handled back in March, sigh. So watching these predictable issues (like Europe having issues in the fall, but also many US issues) is beyond frustrating. I don't have ANY training. If I know approximately what to do, surely there were people who knew what to do in our government?? 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Paige]

The EU and UK have a population of about 100 million more than the USA. 331 million in USA vs 447 in EU plus UK. Their recorded deaths are still lower. Are they doing well? Probably not. Better? Hard to tell since they are so different and can't really be compared to states of one nation. It varies. On the whole, I'd say their stats still look better. 

I think we could clearly have done better had we cared enough.

 

[KungFuPanda]

41 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

You can't compare Japan's and South Korea's geography and demographics with US.

I am not going to keep arguing the same thing over and over.

I think people want magic solutions and I think it's naive to think that "if only" we did this or did that....And that applies to US and worldwide. And I think it's natural for people wanting to place their anger somewhere.

There ARE things we could have done and still can do.  It's naïve and self serving to think that 'since it's going to spread anyway I might as well not make an effort." What parts of Europe consider a huge rise in cases would be cause for celebration in some places here.  When you compare apples to apples we ARE doing terribly; especially when you consider the resources we have. As a population we have a gift for being exceptionally delusional about how "great' we're doing compared to the rest of the world.  We seem to have a serious issue with recognizing we can improve and putting in the work to do that.

My family is from WV.  I'm watching their numbers.  This is a serious "maga' and mask resistant population.  Their numbers were fairly low all along.  They are now getting hit with exponential growth.  There were so many people taking zero precautions and so many businesses refusing to enforce masks.  They had a geographic advantage since they're a bit isolated and don't have a ton of international travel, but they cancelled it out with a hoax mindset and everyone going to the beaches in the summer because the thought it was "just political."  This is not a super healthy population and the healthcare there can be abysmal.  It's going to be rough.  It didn't have to be because the behavior of a population matters.  Maybe we couldn't prevent every case, but it can be kept much much lower with behavioral changes.

Additionally, there ARE cases of viruses that are contained BEFORE they cause a global outbreak.  It's not a guarantee, but it is entirely possible that we all could have been spared had this been contained in Wuhan in the beginning.  It WAS political to pull so much US CDC staff out of China just before the outbreak and that could have made all the difference.  It was spitefully political to just go down the list and undo everything possible just because Obama put it in place.  A pandemic team was a thing we needed.

Edited October 29, 2020 by KungFuPanda

[catz]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, yeah, I don't agree that people want magic solutions. The frustrating thing for me, as an observer, is that someone like me, who has a math background but no epidemiological training, had a pretty good sense of how this ought to be handled back in March, sigh. So watching these predictable issues (like Europe having issues in the fall, but also many US issues) is beyond frustrating. I don't have ANY training. If I know approximately what to do, surely there were people who knew what to do in our government?? 

Oh I feel the exact same way.  The writing has been on the wall for many months.  Prior to the first lockdown I was preparing.  I try to reign in my data/news following for my own sanity because it makes me want to bang my head against a wall.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[SereneHome]

23 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

There is absolutely nothing magic about social distancing, robust testing availability, tracing, quarantining those exposed, and masking.   

There is when half the country doesn't want to do it!!!!!

People seem to be completely missing the human factor of those type of mandates. Are you going to start putting people in jail?

Let's say everyone got tested daily. There are people who went on about their business after being tested positive. And it's not just isolated instances.

 

[catz]

Just now, SereneHome said:

There is when half the country doesn't want to do it!!!!!

People seem to be completely missing the human factor of those type of mandates. Are you going to start putting people in jail?

Let's say everyone got tested daily. There are people who went on about their business after being tested positive. And it's not just isolated instances.

 

That's right.  But the tone for resistance to these measures came from the top.  It could have been different.  There was a lot less resistance to new security measures after 9-11 with the unified tone set.  Yes, there were people who complained, or didn't travel but it wasn't like this. 

[SereneHome]

OK, let's hear it. Step by step approach of what should have been done  - but again, don't forget the human factor. So your approach needs to include enforcement of whatever measures you think would have helped. In US, country of 300M, with vary diverse geography and demographic. And the mind  of the "free people".

There were times when I freely admitted if I was wrong and I will do so again if any of you can come up with a plan, for the WHOLE country that would have been feasible and realistic. And the one that is not based on emotions.

And for full disclosure - I have friends on both sides of the political and Covid sides and even some in between. Some of them crossed the sides back and forth, some stayed the same. So I am very much prepared to hear it all.

[Bootsie]

24 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well, I am not saying Europe handled this great either.  That was in response to "I think people want magic solutions".  Magical thinking to me is "this is no big deal and I'm just going to ignore it and magically we'll just hit herd immunity and as long as me and mine are unscathed I don't care". 

I watched my college student's campus of 40K+ go from a break out of 3000+ to less than 1% positivity with increased investment in test and contact tracers and having adequate quarantine space.  Numbers are bouncing up a little because that state is a super hot spot right now but we will see if they can hold until Thanksgiving.  In fact the CDC visited to see how they are running it.  Every student who accesses campus next semester will be tested twice a week.  Anyway - these measures work.  

Is the lower positivity rate due to testing, contacting tracing, and quarantine space that wasn't available before?  Or, are the lower numbers due to the fact that many had travelled and were living in arrangements with people they had not been living in before, increasing possible exposures significantly, and now that there has been a first wave of infections there are fewer new variables being added and some immunity?   

I have seen universities that were testing all students before arrival and were doing wide surveillance testing at the start, and their pattern of infections look similar to those universities that did not do this.  

[SeaConquest]

8 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

That's right.  But the tone for resistance to these measures came from the top.  It could have been different.  There was a lot less resistance to new security measures after 9-11 with the unified tone set.  Yes, there were people who complained, or didn't travel but it wasn't like this. 

Exactly. Rs had the opportunity to turn this pandemic into a political win in an election year with real leadership. But, that would require actual leaders. Most of those folks have been chased out of the GOP in favor of sycophants and yes-men. You reap what you sow. Unfortunately, 227k Americans (and their loved ones) have paid the price.

Edited October 29, 2020 by SeaConquest

[OH_Homeschooler]

7 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

There is when half the country doesn't want to do it!!!!!

People seem to be completely missing the human factor of those type of mandates. Are you going to start putting people in jail?

Let's say everyone got tested daily. There are people who went on about their business after being tested positive. And it's not just isolated instances.

 

I don't know where you are but I live on the border of 2 states. One has a strict mask mandate, the other has nothing except "wear one if you want!" People in the state with the mandate wear masks and people in the state without the mandate don't. There are always some (a handful) who don't in the state with the mandate, and there are always some (a minority) who do in the state without the mandate. But the difference is quite clear. When there is a mandate, most people comply. They may complain about it but they wear the mask. 

The positivity rate in both states is going up but it's a lot higher in the state without the mandate.

[SereneHome]

1 minute ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I don't know where you are but I live on the border of 2 states. One has a strict mask mandate, the other has nothing except "wear one if you want!" People in the state with the mandate wear masks and people in the state without the mandate don't. There are always some (a handful) who don't in the state with the mandate, and there are always some (a minority) who do in the state without the mandate. But the difference is quite clear. When there is a mandate, most people comply. They may complain about it but they wear the mask. 

The positivity rate in both states is going up but it's a lot higher in the state without the mandate.

Not from what I've seen.

I am in New England so I can hit about 5 states in a day. I do grocery shopping in two states and have been since March. One has mandate, another doesn't. The one that doesn't has a lot of place-specific mandates. Yep, people did it at first. Not even 100% but somewhat. It has been totally lax now for the past couple of months. People "shop" in stores vs going in and out.  People's masks are nowhere near where they should be. In both states. Cases are going up. I don't see many people worrying about it

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

OK, let's hear it. Step by step approach of what should have been done  - but again, don't forget the human factor. So your approach needs to include enforcement of whatever measures you think would have helped. In US, country of 300M, with vary diverse geography and demographic. And the mind  of the "free people".

Sure: 

1) A careful explanation from up high how this all works. So, good public health messaging that doesn't confuse people. Right now, people are getting extremely mixed messaging and it's not working. 

2) Distributing good masks, like N95s. I think mandates aren't a bad idea, but honestly, l think if you did good messaging and distributed masks, the need would be much lower.  

3) TONS of testing, quick contact tracing. Selective shutting down of things that drive super-spreader events. (So, bars, for example. Probably restaurants need to be at partial capacity.) 

4) Local severe and brief lockdowns for when positivity goes too high, to keep things under control. 

I think all of those are currently out of reach, because they require not having GOTTEN mixed messaging already. Plus, there's a serious lack of management. 

I'm very curious how NY does in the winter. It's trying at least some of these things, although clearly not others. So I'm going to treat it as an experiment. 

I'm honestly not super interested in debating this list. We should talk in a few months, after we see how things go. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I am in New England so I can hit about 5 states in a day. I do grocery shopping in two states and have been since March. One has mandate, another doesn't. The one that doesn't has a lot of place-specific mandates. Yep, people did it at first. Not even 100% but somewhat. It has been totally lax now for the past couple of months. People "shop" in stores vs going in and out.  People's masks are nowhere near where they should be. In both states. Cases are going up. I don't see many people worrying about it

I'm seeing almost total compliance in NYC. And that includes outside. I do think the messaging is a big deal. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[SereneHome]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure: 

1) A careful explanation from up high how this all works. So, good public health messaging that doesn't confuse people. Right now, people are getting extremely mixed messaging and it's not working. 

2) Distributing good masks, like N95s. I think mandates aren't a bad idea, but honestly, l think if you did good messaging and distributed masks, the need would be much lower.  

3) TONS of testing, quick contact tracing. Selective shutting down of things that drive super-spreader events. (So, bars, for example. Probably restaurants need to be at partial capacity.) 

4) Local lockdowns for when positivity goes too high, to keep things under control. 

I think all of those are currently out of reach, because they require not having GOTTEN mixed messaging already. Plus, there's a serious lack of management. 

I'm very curious how NY does in the winter. It's trying at least some of these things, although clearly not others. So I'm going to treat it as an experiment. 

I'm honestly not super interested in debating this list. We should talk in a few months, after we see how things go. 

Well then.....

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Well then.....

Well, you did ask 😄 . That's really what I think, but it's very hard to talk about whether any aspects of this work in the context of US response, given that we aren't trying it. That's why I want to see how it goes in NY! 

[Bootsie]

23 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

There ARE things we could have done and still can do.  It's naïve and self serving to think that 'since it's going to spread anyway I might as well not make an effort." What parts of Europe consider a huge rise in cases would be cause for celebration in some places here.  When you compare apples to apples we ARE doing terribly; especially when you consider the resources we have. As a population we have a gift for being exceptionally delusional about how "great' we're doing compared to the rest of the world.  We seem to have a serious issue with recognizing we can improve and putting in the work to do that.

 

Which parts of Europe do you see this happening for?  Almost every place I have seen in Europe has had new cases/population much higher in the last several days than the US has--often double or more.  For example, the number of new cases in Switzerland yesterday would be equivalent to over 204,000 cases in one day in the US, when adjusting for population size.  France would be over 136,000. Spain almost 260,000; Denmark over 90,000.  

[Matryoshka]

6 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Not from what I've seen.

I am in New England so I can hit about 5 states in a day. I do grocery shopping in two states and have been since March. One has mandate, another doesn't. The one that doesn't has a lot of place-specific mandates. Yep, people did it at first. Not even 100% but somewhat. It has been totally lax now for the past couple of months. People "shop" in stores vs going in and out.  People's masks are nowhere near where they should be. In both states. Cases are going up. I don't see many people worrying about it

I also grocery shop in two New England states; one does not have a statewide mandate, but the border city in that state where I shop does. I've seen pretty much universal compliance in all these places.  Thank goodness.

[KungFuPanda]

11 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Not from what I've seen.

I am in New England so I can hit about 5 states in a day. I do grocery shopping in two states and have been since March. One has mandate, another doesn't. The one that doesn't has a lot of place-specific mandates. Yep, people did it at first. Not even 100% but somewhat. It has been totally lax now for the past couple of months. People "shop" in stores vs going in and out.  People's masks are nowhere near where they should be. In both states. Cases are going up. I don't see many people worrying about it

I'm in central Maryland and I've forgotten what an unmasked face looks like indoors.  There is social pressure to not just wear it, but wear it properly.  Small children will call you out if your mask slips below your nose.  

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Which parts of Europe do you see this happening for?  Almost every place I have seen in Europe has had new cases/population much higher in the last several days than the US has--often double or more.  For example, the number of new cases in Switzerland yesterday would be equivalent to over 204,000 cases in one day in the US, when adjusting for population size.  France would be over 136,000. Spain almost 260,000; Denmark over 90,000.  

Well, that makes sense, to be fair 🙂 . The European climate is much more uniform than the US climate, so it makes sense that they are seeing a big fall spike everywhere, whereas the US is mostly seeing it in the north. 

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but it also does make sense. 

[Matryoshka]

Just now, KungFuPanda said:

I'm in central Maryland and I've forgotten what an unmasked face looks like indoors.  There is social pressure to not just wear it, but wear it properly.  Small children will call you out if your mask slips below your nose.  

Yep. We are herd animals and don't like to 'stick out' from the crowd.  No matter ones personal position, once most people head in one direction,  it becomes really hard not to follow along with the crowd, which is why good, consistent leadership in a public health direction is so important.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Matryoshka said:

Yep. We are herd animals and don't like to 'stick out' from the crowd.  No matter ones personal position, once most people head in one direction,  it becomes really hard not to follow along with the crowd, which is why good, consistent leadership in a public health direction is so important.  

Right. See the first point on the "correct response" on my list, lol. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

Little stat of the day:

Taiwan w/ 23 mil people... has had ZERO #COVID19 cases in 200 days. Zero cases, not just deaths. #ZeroCovid 

If Taiwan was a US state, it would be the #3 largest after Texas and larger than Florida. You don’t wanna know how many cases those states have daily.

https://time.com/5905129/taiwan-coronavirus-record/

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by SeaConquest

[happi duck]

Someone literally knew covid was deadly and passed through the air and that same person mocked masks and stopped the distribution of masks.

Just stopping everything for a beat and taking it seriously would.have.helped.  Really, truly.  It.would.have.helped.

People literally refuse masks, distancing etc out of loyalty to a person.

I'm sickened by the current climate of looking for something bad elsewhere to justify the sorry state of things in the US.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yes! Heck about not confusing the medical people. Our friends that are doctors and pharmacists are getting multiple messages/directives a week and many contradict each other. 

At the end of the day, people only have so much bandwidth. I'm a homeschooler with enough Internet time that I could dig down deep into the issues. Not everyone has that luxury. And then mixed messages are terrible. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

6 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I'm sickened by the current climate of looking for something bad elsewhere to justify the sorry state of things in the US.

Same. And I'm sickened by people saying the response wasn't political. There is proof of someone's son-in-law saying not to provide aid because the most affected states at the time did not vote for that person's father-in-law. And if that aid had been provided then, perhaps the disease wouldn't have spread to the point that it has. 

[MercyA]

Saying "nothing can be done" is the antithesis of the commands to "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

In my circles, everyone is now saying "masks don't work," not even for protecting other people. They are getting their info from Facebook memes and from logic that goes like this: "Everyone I know who caught C19 was a strict mask wearer. Therefore, masks do not work" 🤦‍♀️ or "People are wearing masks and the numbers keep going up, so masks do nothing." (People are NOT wearing them in church and at football practice and at get togethers and also, BTW, wearing one around your chin does not count!)

It was bad enough when people weren't wearing them because they didn't want to be "oppressed."

Like, seriously, it's all I can do not to break into semi-hysterical laughter multiple times a day. 😞 This is just surreal, people. 

[SereneHome]

30 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I also grocery shop in two New England states; one does not have a statewide mandate, but the border city in that state where I shop does. I've seen pretty much universal compliance in all these places.  Thank goodness.

Tried sending you PM, but it didn't go through.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, MercyA said:

Saying "nothing can be done" is the antithesis of the commands to "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

In my circles, everyone is now saying "masks don't work," not even for protecting other people. They are getting their info from Facebook memes and from logic that goes like this: "Everyone I know who caught C19 was a strict mask wearer. Therefore, masks do not work" 🤦‍♀️ or "People are wearing masks and the numbers keep going up, so masks do nothing." (People are NOT wearing them in church and at football practice and at get togethers and also, BTW, wearing one around your chin does not count!)

It was bad enough when people weren't wearing them because they didn't want to be "oppressed."

Like, seriously, it's all I can do not to break into semi-hysterical laughter multiple times a day. 😞 This is just surreal, people. 

Yeah. I know what you mean. It's one thing when people have different values (and we don't match on all values, as you know), but I wish people wouldn't have their own facts. 

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, either way half would be unhappy, but one course of action leads to way less dead people.  So I pick the one with equal unhappy but less dead.  Why pick the other way?

Quote of the month. I want this in my siggie! 🙂 

[SeaConquest]

Here is a city that managed to beat the odds. I wonder what they did differently?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-25/san-francisco-slow-coronavirus-reopening

The Chair of UCSF Dept of Medicine explains:

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by SeaConquest