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49 minutes ago, bibiche said:

It was in Nice, not Paris. Horrific, but thank goodness it was a knife and not a gun as it undoubtedly would have been in the US.

Well I'm glad he didn't do what has also been popular in European attacks, they could get their hands on a commercial truck and run people on sidewalks down.  That's happened a few times.

 

There was also an attack in Avignon. 

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1 hour ago, bibiche said:

It was in Nice, not Paris. Horrific, but thank goodness it was a knife and not a gun as it undoubtedly would have been in the US.

 

I am not understanding. 

Do You mean thank goodness because more people could have been killed or maimed faster as compared to knifing / decapitation? 

 

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12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Well I'm glad he didn't do what has also been popular in European attacks, they could get their hands on a commercial truck and run people on sidewalks down.  That's happened a few times.

 

There was also an attack in Avignon. 

 

Also French Embassy Saudi Arabia

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

There was also an attack in Avignon. 

A quick Google yields the info that a man was menacing people with a knife and the police killed him when he rushed them. No other reports of injuries. But that is the result of a two second search, I haven’t read other news yet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.liberation.fr/amphtml/france/2020/10/29/avignon-un-homme-abattu-apres-avoir-menace-des-passants-au-couteau_1803836

ETA a different news journal says it was a handgun that a man with a history of mental illness threatened a motorist with and that it has absolutely nothing to do with a terrorist attack: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.francebleu.fr/amp/infos/faits-divers-justice/un-homme-arme-d-un-couteau-a-ete-tue-par-la-police-a-avignon-1603968871

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7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Why?  I think Macron answered this after the teacher was killed for showing his students a cartoon:

"We will continue, professor. We will defend the freedom that you taught so well and we will promote secularism, we will not renounce caricatures, drawings, even if others retreat," Macron said earlier this month. "We will continue the fight for freedom and the freedom of which you are now the face."

I think the cartoon people need to stop poking a hornet's nest.   Why are they so committed to the idea that France is more free when they draw a cartoon like the most recent one of the Turkish president pulling up a Muslim's woman's garment...and as a result the country now needs more troops to protect schools, churches, etc.?   

I live in the USA.  Except for certain singers and a few others who are allowed a dispensation, I think most people understand and willingly accept that the n word should not be used.   Do people feel less free because of this?  I don't think so.  Some things are just wrong, and it shouldn't be such a hardship to stop drawing pictures that will get innocent people killed. 

The cartoon people and the people they offend will never change.  Same sh*t, different day.  

 

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And the guy who decapitated is from Chechnya, right? The regime there supported by Putin has been brutal and the guy in charge has radicalized the entire region to extreme. I am not surprised. We have Chechen friends who are refusing to go back to even visit because of Kadyrov’s reign. Why Putin isn’t held accountable for what is happening there under his puppet is beyond me.
Heartbreaking for France. really heartbreaking. 

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3 hours ago, bibiche said:

It was in Nice, not Paris. Horrific, but thank goodness it was a knife and not a gun as it undoubtedly would have been in the US.

We just had a Satanist kill his girlfriend by stabbing, chase the gf's sister down the street and into the neighbor's garage she tried to hide in, stab and disembowel her and came out of the garage wearing her innards around his neck.  He also knifed his sister who along with her brother were trying to stop him from what he was doing.   https://nypost.com/2020/10/28/louisiana-man-killed-2-wounded-siblings-in-gruesome-machete-attack/

One of the articles mentioned he had on a Satanic Mask at one point.  And he certainly looks possessed. Also I think his photo resembles Richard Ramirez, T thr Night Stalker Serial Killer in LA decades ago.

 

So no,, we got killers who use other weapons too.  And our biggest terrorist attacks were planes and some others were bombs and cars and stabbings too.

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1 hour ago, Laurie said:

Why?  I think Macron answered this after the teacher was killed for showing his students a cartoon:

"We will continue, professor. We will defend the freedom that you taught so well and we will promote secularism, we will not renounce caricatures, drawings, even if others retreat," Macron said earlier this month. "We will continue the fight for freedom and the freedom of which you are now the face."

I think the cartoon people need to stop poking a hornet's nest.   Why are they so committed to the idea that France is more free when they draw a cartoon like the most recent one of the Turkish president pulling up a Muslim's woman's garment...and as a result the country now needs more troops to protect schools, churches, etc.?   

I live in the USA.  Except for certain singers and a few others who are allowed a dispensation, I think most people understand and willingly accept that the n word should not be used.   Do people feel less free because of this?  I don't think so.  Some things are just wrong, and it shouldn't be such a hardship to stop drawing pictures that will get innocent people killed. 

The cartoon people and the people they offend will never change.  Same sh*t, different day.  

 

Are you kidding me??????? I do not want anyone to say the N word but killing or even hitting them is outrageous and is all the killing of the French.  And yes, I am a Free Speech Advocate.

As a child, I lived in Arlington, VA.  My mother stayed at home with us, didn't drive at that time and we walked to the library which was about 1.5 miles away.  The way to go made us pass the American Nazi party headquarters at that time.  It was a small white house.  We viscerally hate the Nazis/  At least once I went to a 4th of July Parade in Arlington and the Nazis had to be allowed to march.  People boood them but no one attacked them.  In the mid 80's, the Nazis got permits (which were not allowed to be denied just like you have to permit other groups to parade or demonstrate with permits but you cannot deny permits to groups you do not like) in Skokie, IL - a Chicago suburb with a large concentration of Holocaust survivors.  They marched and others put up large signs to block the view of them, booed. etc.  No one attacked them/

I don't like President Macron for some things but yes, freedom of speech is fundamental in France just like in US.

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44 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And the guy who decapitated is from Chechnya, right? T

 

 

 

I have not seen anything saying where the attackers in the Nice beheading and other killings and injuries came from.  Assuming they came from elsewhere than Nice.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-nice-idUSKBN27E17D

 

“NICE, France (Reuters) - A knife-wielding attacker shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest) beheaded a woman and killed two other people in a church in the French city of Nice on Thursday.”

 

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1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

I have not seen anything saying where the attackers in the Nice beheading and other killings and injuries came from.  Assuming they came from elsewhere than Nice.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-nice-idUSKBN27E17D

 

“NICE, France (Reuters) - A knife-wielding attacker shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest) beheaded a woman and killed two other people in a church in the French city of Nice on Thursday.”

 

Yes, all I know is if anyone is shouting Allahu Akbar, you are in grave danger.

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22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

I have not seen anything saying where the attackers in the Nice beheading and other killings and injuries came from.  Assuming they came from elsewhere than Nice.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-nice-idUSKBN27E17D

 

“NICE, France (Reuters) - A knife-wielding attacker shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest) beheaded a woman and killed two other people in a church in the French city of Nice on Thursday.”

 

Oh boy, this is another one 😞 

I didn't even see that. I was referring to the beheading.  
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Oh boy, this is another one 😞 

I didn't even see that. I was referring to the beheading.  
 

 

 

You were referring to the teacher who was beheaded. This was a second beheading plus two other murders, and afaik also other injured people. (Today— so two beheadings in France in a short time.) 

 

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48 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, all I know is if anyone is shouting Allahu Akbar, you are in grave danger.

Wait a minute.  I hear this phrase every single day and I am not in danger because of it.  Context matters, and the use of this phrase is nearly always positive all over the world, and literally does mean that God is greater than everyone and everything, not that a terrorist is out to get you.  

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34 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

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Yes, all I know is if anyone is shouting Allahu Akbar, you are in grave danger.

I'm a pragmatist, so I wouldn't make a special effort to do things that would put other people's lives in danger.  I think the cartoon people should know by now that not everyone is a law-abiding, free speech loving person.   And yet they keep drawing cartoons intentionally meant to provoke, putting other French citizens in grave danger.  I happen to think that's rather shameful, not some kind of high and mighty action deserving of praise.  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Amira said:

Wait a minute.  I hear this phrase every single day and I am not in danger because of it.  Context matters, and the use of this phrase is nearly always positive all over the world, and literally does mean that God is greater than everyone and everything, not that a terrorist is out to get you.  

As I said, shouting and of course, not if you are a Muslim and at home or in a Mosque and the imam is saying that in what is the equiavalent of a sermon, etc.  I am referring to Someone is out and about and someone shouts that.  

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

I have not seen anything saying where the attackers in the Nice beheading and other killings and injuries came from.  Assuming they came from elsewhere than Nice.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-nice-idUSKBN27E17D

 

“NICE, France (Reuters) - A knife-wielding attacker shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest) beheaded a woman and killed two other people in a church in the French city of Nice on Thursday.”

 

I hadn't either before this report. 

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2 minutes ago, Laurie said:

I'm a pragmatist, so I wouldn't make a special effort to do things that would put other people's lives in danger.  I think the cartoon people should know by now that not everyone is a law-abiding, free speech loving person.   And yet they keep drawing cartoons intentionally meant to provoke, putting other French citizens in grave danger.  I happen to think that's rather shameful, not some kind of high and mighty action deserving of praise.  

 

 

THe last person who was beheaded was teaching a class on Free Speech.  He totally deserved that high French honor.  That is the point.  In a Free Society, we should be able to draw any cartoon we want.  And no  one should be killing us and defending the killers or saying that they somehow deserved it. 

And on another topic closely related- cancel culture is toxic and awful too. It has gone crazy. 

And what is really awful is that it seems to be mostly older people who are Free Speech advocates (including some thoughtful liberals who then get the whole cancel culture treatment of doxxing, etc)  though I have seen on social media more and more reports of all sorts of younger people who are awakening to the whole problem of restricting speech. 

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On another note, France does not have the same gun rights as we do either.  So unlike in our country, where many churches and synagogues  have set up security teams of what often are their own members (even pretty small churches) due to a number of attacks, most not terrorism, but definitely some that were, they can't do that without hiring security.  I know Texas enacted a law specific to that and Alabama's AG has delivered his opinion that AL law protects you in any place where you can have a gun is not disallowed, to fire it in defense of yourself or others.  Knife wielding or machete wielding people screaming Allahu Akbar or wearing Satanic masks and running at people or angry at the church or members for any reason an attempting to kill or injure people are fair game for shooting.   And I don't even think that in the most liberal states there would be much issue with someone stopping a beheading but not really sure.

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6 hours ago, bibiche said:

It was in Nice, not Paris. Horrific, but thank goodness it was a knife and not a gun as it undoubtedly would have been in the US.

Yep thanks.  Shouldn’t post so late at night.  Of course objectively speaking you are right but there seems something particularly awful about a beheading.

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3 hours ago, Laurie said:

Why?  I think Macron answered this after the teacher was killed for showing his students a cartoon:

"We will continue, professor. We will defend the freedom that you taught so well and we will promote secularism, we will not renounce caricatures, drawings, even if others retreat," Macron said earlier this month. "We will continue the fight for freedom and the freedom of which you are now the face."

I think the cartoon people need to stop poking a hornet's nest.   Why are they so committed to the idea that France is more free when they draw a cartoon like the most recent one of the Turkish president pulling up a Muslim's woman's garment...and as a result the country now needs more troops to protect schools, churches, etc.?   

I live in the USA.  Except for certain singers and a few others who are allowed a dispensation, I think most people understand and willingly accept that the n word should not be used.   Do people feel less free because of this?  I don't think so.  Some things are just wrong, and it shouldn't be such a hardship to stop drawing pictures that will get innocent people killed. 

The cartoon people and the people they offend will never change.  Same sh*t, different day.  

 

You aren’t saying they are equivalent though?  I’m tired so I’m probably reading that wrong.

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4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

You aren’t saying they are equivalent though?  I’m tired so I’m probably reading that wrong.

I thought it wasn't a well thought out response at all and her second confirmed that she doesn't seem to think that Free Speech is important.  France is not as Free Speech as the United States.  As someone on the BBC News tonight pointed out, in France, denigrating Islam is against the law and Brigitte Bardot has been fined 4 times for this, as one example that was brought up.

The BBC report had new details too.  The only reason the police got the guy was because one of the victims, who later died, managed to escape the church and yell for help.  They had a whole timeline.  Apparently he is Tunisian and had only arrived in Italy 2 weeks ago and the Red Cross gave him his papers,  Nice is not far from Italy.  Also, they have photos of when he left the train station, etc and they know he entered the church 1/2 an hour before he was shot by the police.  The police first tried Tasering him and then shot him.

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It’s a terrible, terrible situation. A handful of people can do so much killing and do so much damage. I hope it doesn’t inspire all other extremists and/or mentally unstable individuals. I worry that with wars, poverty, it is going to be easier to recruit. Sigh. 😞 


meanwhile in my son’s online course one kid wrote all Muslims are killers. There are Muslim kids in the class as well. 

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17 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

It’s a terrible, terrible situation. A handful of people can do so much killing and do so much damage. I hope it doesn’t inspire all other extremists and/or mentally unstable individuals. I worry that with wars, poverty, it is going to be easier to recruit. Sigh. 😞 


meanwhile in my son’s online course one kid wrote all Muslims are killers. There are Muslim kids in the class as well. 

I’m kind of hoping the fact that he was someone who came in rather than someone who had migrated to France helps dampen any thoughts in this way maybe.  

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27 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’m kind of hoping the fact that he was someone who came in rather than someone who had migrated to France helps dampen any thoughts in this way maybe.  

I don’t know. I don’t think it matters. It’s going to take generations to change anything. 
I actually really like the idea of not importing imams from abroad and letting locals step in instead. 

Overall don’t see a lot of positive ahead. With climate change the economies will suffer , and that provokes wars, and that leads to misery. And you have already low literacy rates in some parts and extreme poverty. While none of this leads to extremism directly, such circumstances affect mental and emotional health and just make population more susceptible to conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies or whatnot. 
I really want to see light ahead and I don’t. 
 

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9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’m kind of hoping the fact that he was someone who came in rather than someone who had migrated to France helps dampen any thoughts in this way maybe.  

He was a migrant who arrived in Italy about 2 weeks ago, the Red Cross gave him papers (not sure why since Tunisia is not at war, etc)  and he traveled by train to Nice yesterday, left the station and did his deed.

I am not sure that scenario is going to help at all tamp down anything.  And the reality is that France is concerned about migrants coming to their country and they don't like that.  

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9 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t know. I don’t think it matters. It’s going to take generations to change anything. 
I actually really like the idea of not importing imams from abroad and letting locals step in instead. 

Overall don’t see a lot of positive ahead. With climate change the economies will suffer , and that provokes wars, and that leads to misery. And you have already low literacy rates in some parts and extreme poverty. While none of this leads to extremism directly, such circumstances affect mental and emotional health and just make population more susceptible to conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies or whatnot. 
I really want to see light ahead and I don’t. 
 

For the most part, terrorists are not impoverished nor are they illiterate.  Many of them come not only from totally middle class backgrounds, some of them come from upper class.  Yes, there are some poorer terrorists but those are not the ones who are attacking Europe and America.  Now a number of them had loser backgrounds but that is a personality trait, not an economic issue or literacy issue or climate change (climate always changes over time, especially geological time and we are past due for a major change not because of humans but because climate changes on Earth).

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1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

He was a migrant who arrived in Italy about 2 weeks ago, the Red Cross gave him papers (not sure why since Tunisia is not at war, etc)  and he traveled by train to Nice yesterday, left the station and did his deed.

I am not sure that scenario is going to help at all tamp down anything.  And the reality is that France is concerned about migrants coming to their country and they don't like that.  

I saw that a migrant boat went down and over 120 people drowned today.  If I understand right turkey has been a bit of a gatekeeper stopping people attempting the crossing and then deciding not to when they are unhappy with Europe.  And right now they seem to be at odds with Europe a lot over both the Armenia/Azerbaijan thing and now the cartoons.  It seems like there’s no good solutions to all the problems.

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