Removed; thanks, all! <3

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Heartwood said:

It’s just the separation of church and state 😁.

Churches follow no laws now? 

[math teacher]

I'm really sorry, Mercy, that this has happened to you. I attend a church that is anti-mask. I (and two or three more people) do mask,  but I still ended up with the virus from being around unmasked people. When I go back, I will be even more careful. 

I feel betrayed in that the one place I was going that I should feel safe and protected, I was not safe nor protected. And people will (have already) say that , See masks don't work, because you got it. I don't think there is another church of my beliefs close to me that masks. The only thing that is keeping me going is that I know God knows all things and sees the end from the beginning. He is for me, if everyone else is against me. 

But it's hard.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, math teacher said:

I'm really sorry, Mercy, that this has happened to you. I attend a church that is anti-mask. I (and two or three more people) do mask,  but I still ended up with the virus from being around unmasked people. When I go back, I will be even more careful. 

I feel betrayed in that the one place I was going that I should feel safe and protected, I was not safe nor protected. And people will (have already) say that , See masks don't work, because you got it. I don't think there is another church of my beliefs close to me that masks. The only thing that is keeping me going is that I know God knows all things and sees the end from the beginning. He is for me, if everyone else is against me. 

But it's hard.

How are you feeling? 

[SKL]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The point is that the lack of church mandate is all politics, no evidence. 

Separation of church and state is constitutional and has been for hundreds of years.

[MercyA]

I am so sorry, @math teacher. That is awful.

I unfortunately have heard the same sentiment: basically, everyone [this person] knows who has covid has been a careful masker, therefore masks do not work, either for personal protection OR for preventing spread to others.

The lack of logic...

Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA

[mom2scouts]

I'm sorry. It really has nothing to do with you. People are weird. I don't understand how wearing a face mask is such a big deal, especially if it will save lives and get rid of this stupid virus, but I came across an article that said the face mask issue was a problem during the Spanish Flu too! My church is requiring face masks, but knows some people have a problem with it and has stated, "We ask you to be patient and extend grace to others, particularly if their precautions are different than yours."

[SKL]

I do think that to some extent, masks give a false sense of security.  Lives are risked at church, mask or no mask.  Of course that was also true before Covid, but it is more so now, at least in places where there are a lot of cases.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, but it does not mean that churches are not required to follow laws. For example, churches are still required to follow capacity restrictions, have fire exits and fire alarms. 

 

There are constitutional tests to pass every time a law is applied to a religious organization.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, math teacher said:

I'm really sorry, Mercy, that this has happened to you. I attend a church that is anti-mask. I (and two or three more people) do mask,  but I still ended up with the virus from being around unmasked people. When I go back, I will be even more careful. 

I feel betrayed in that the one place I was going that I should feel safe and protected, I was not safe nor protected. And people will (have already) say that , See masks don't work, because you got it. I don't think there is another church of my beliefs close to me that masks. The only thing that is keeping me going is that I know God knows all things and sees the end from the beginning. He is for me, if everyone else is against me. 

But it's hard.

Are they just  being obtuse?  I mean it FEELS like that is an obtuse statement.  Or are they literally not reading the massive amount of information about how masks do work.  As in....everyone needs to wear masks and socially distance and avoid big crowds for best protection.  And no one who really knows has ever said it is an absolute protection.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Separation of church and state is constitutional and has been for hundreds of years.

Do churches follow fire codes? Tax laws?

I’m sorry, but this is a willful misunderstanding of the term. I’m delighted about the separation of church and state, because it means the state can’t force me to worship in any particular way. (As a secular Jew, I’m very grateful for that.) It does not mean churches are above the law.

[SKL]

I have also thought about sending my kids to youth group ... I am sure they would have to mask.  I do think the mask would take away from the experience.  Personally I, a 54-year-old woman, don't want the experience of going to church in a mask.  I just don't.  It's nothing personal against the church, it's not about mask science, it's about basically why I go to church in the first place.

That said, our church offers an online option as well as an in-person option.  So I have an alternative I consider sufficient for my family for now.

[MercyA]

.

Edited October 20, 2020 by MercyA

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This is true but mask mandates and other mandates like requiring fire exits pass those tests. 

I don't know about that.  I mean, where do you draw the line ... should I also be legally required to mask in my own home or my close friends' homes, because scientifically that might be better?  Going to church is a private decision, and nobody is required to be there if they don't like what people do or don't wear on their faces.

I'm not against people masking in church during Covid, but I don't agree the state should be allowed to mandate it.  Many churches have decided to require masks and/or go online, so individuals are free to make the choice they feel right about.

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Do churches follow fire codes? Tax laws?

I’m sorry, but this is a willful misunderstanding of the term. I’m delighted about the separation of church and state, because it means the state can’t force me to worship in any particular way. (As a secular Jew, I’m very grateful for that.) It does not mean churches are above the law.

(a) I assume so [fire codes], (b) no [tax laws that apply generally].

I am an attorney.  I know what the first amendment means.

Edited October 19, 2020 by SKL

[SKL]

dp sorry

Edited October 19, 2020 by SKL

[Matryoshka]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Do churches follow fire codes? Tax laws?

I’m sorry, but this is a willful misunderstanding of the term. I’m delighted about the separation of church and state, because it means the state can’t force me to worship in any particular way. (As a secular Jew, I’m very grateful for that.) It does not mean churches are above the law.

Yes.  

For an even more crazy over-the-top comparison, say I belong to the Church of Satanic Cannibals and a huge part of our religious faith is eating human flesh as part of our service.  The government would really have no say in saying, 'no murdering or eating people' because ... religion?  In this crazy example, the government, I would think, would even be able to have a bit of a say in how the church worships, because, really, no cannibalism.

Wearing masks is like having sprinklers installed.  It's public health and safety, and has nothing to do with religion, so stop it.  Literally nowhere in the Bible does it say 'thou shalt not wear face coverings'.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Matryoshka

[SKL]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

Yes.  

For an even more crazy over-the-top comparison, say I belong to the Church of Satanic Cannibals and a huge part of our religious faith is eating human flesh as part of our service.  The government would really have no say in saying, 'no murdering or eating people' because ... religion?

It would have to pass constitutionality tests.

In the case of eating humans, I am pretty sure the constitutional test would be passed.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

(a) I assume so [fire codes], (b) no [tax laws that apply generally].

I am an attorney.  I know what the first amendment means.

And you think that mask laws cannot apply to churches? I’m going to guess that’s not the only possible interpretation...

[Scarlett]

This has gone down the rabbit trail as we are prone to do, but 1) If churches were not exempt they would have to follow the law.  They would not be prohibited from worshiping, they would be prohibited from gathering in groups due to a public health crisis. 2) Mercy, as a teacher, whether in a church or anywhere else, should be able to insist on basic safety for herself and others. 3) Just because the PTB have exempted the churches from health guidelines doesn't  mean churches HAVE to ignore the health guidelines.  And good sense.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This has gone down the rabbit trail as we are prone to do...

I definitely plead guilty!!

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Heartwood said:

8 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Are they just  being obtuse?  I mean it FEELS like that is an obtuse statement.  Or are they literally not reading the massive amount of information about how masks do work.  As in....everyone needs to wear masks and socially distance and avoid big crowds for best protection.  And no one who really knows has ever said it is an absolute protection.

This misinformation is still being spread at the very highest level in this country, it just changes form. Most recently a CDC study was being deliberately misquoted and misinterpreted to yet again present this view. I honestly can’t blame some people for still being misinformed when some leaders are continually purposely spreading misinformation and encouraging their followers to only believe them and not science or public health officials or the mainstream media.