Hard work and success

[lovinmyboys]

Growing up, people told me that hard work brought success. It is something I had accepted without thinking about it. Now, I am not sure that it is true (I guess it also depends on the definition of success).

I have one child who struggles with learning new things. He is currently getting tested, so I should know more soon, but my guess is he has dyslexia and possibly ADHD and maybe something else-I don’t know. I don’t think he is a harder than average worker, but he definitely works hard. Throughout his life he has had coaches and other adult influences tell him if he would just work harder, then x would happen. X usually doesn’t happen. I’m trying to figure out new language to use with him, because as he gets older he sees that isn’t true and I think he feels confused. 
 

Another problem with the “hard work” thing is I have heard it used as another way of saying “parents have money to pay for private lessons or tutoring.” 

I guess my point is that I wish our society would maybe do more to acknowledge that hard work is not the only thing that makes people successful. It seems to me that it is used (sometimes) as a way for people to look down on others who aren’t as successful as them-well, he didn’t work as hard. Sometimes, what society sees as hard work is actually just innate talent, good executive function, ability to pay for lessons, etc. 

And, my other point is, I am hurting for my son. Like I said, he is a preteen boy so he definitely loves to play and would choose running around outside over math, but he works hard too, and I feel like this narrative is hurting him. It took him 3 years to learn to read-not because he tried less than other kids. I would say my other 3 learned to read in about 3 months-they did not try harder than him. He didn’t come begging for reading lessons or pick up books on his own, but he worked hard during the time I required. Overall, he worked a lot harder to learn to read than my other kids, but no one has told them to work harder. I just hate that he gets double criticized for being not good at something. First, he isn’t good at it and second he doesn’t work hard enough. 

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

 

I guess my point is that I wish our society would maybe do more to acknowledge that hard work is not the only thing that makes people successful. It seems to me that it is used (sometimes) as a way for people to look down on others who aren’t as successful as them-well, he didn’t work as hard. Sometimes, what society sees as hard work is actually just innate talent, good executive function, ability to pay for lessons, etc.

I'm sorry you're hurting. I have a DS on the spectrum, so I know the feeling. 

I think a lot of people are afraid to acknowledge that sheer luck is a thing, and that it affects all of us. To acknowledge the randomness of that takes away some degree of ones sense of control, and I think acknowledging that they can't control everything scares a lot of people.

Hugs.

 

[ktgrok]

I totally agree. 

I have spent a lot of time talking with my kids about how everyone has things that are easier for them, and harder for them. And that we are all different because that makes sense from a community standpoint. If we were all good at math but terrible at spelling who would be our editors? And that being "smart" isn't just about stuff measured on a test, etc. 

And we talk about hard work being important in that a good work ethic helps us to make progress, and because with practice even hard things become easier, but I don't promise they will be "good at" any particular things. Just better. 

Practice makes perfect is a lie. Practice makes progress. That's the saying we use here. 

And yes, in this country in particular, there is a bizarre refusal to acknowledge that individual circumstances - from genetics and biology to environment - DO have a HUGE effect on "success". Often hard work is involved, but not JUST hard work. It is perhaps necessary, but not sufficient, in most cases. 

The good news is, from a "success" standpoint, is that in listening to many podcasts, reading articles, etc on sucessful people I can say that one of the biggest factors was family support. And your kids have that! 

But yeah, it drives me crazy when people try to make what is NOT a moral or character issue into one. It happens in other areas too...poor people are blamed for being poor, fat people are told they just lack will power despite the clear evidence to the contrary, etc. 

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

And we talk about hard work being important in that a good work ethic helps us to make progress, and because with practice even hard things become easier, but I don't promise they will be "good at" any particular things. Just better

This is the big thing in our household.  Especially when it came to having 5 kids of VERY varying abilities in Little League, lol.

We all get to choose our own definition of “success”, no matter what anyone else says.  I kind of dragged my kid, kicking and screaming, across the homeschool finish line.  Not even because of learning issues, but because her passions were intense and didn’t line up well with state requirements, lol.  But she’s been busting her hump and finding great success in her chosen fields. Ones, by the way, that will never make her rich or give her a normal schedule, but she’ll get by fine and provide essential services to people in their greatest moments of need. So... yeah.  Does anyone really care that she probably doesn’t remember geometry formulas or the lesser known presidents while she pursues additional training in an area that doesn’t require that knowledge?

I have ADHD, didn’t finish college, and haven’t had a job in 19 years.  I struggle with bouts of depression and anxiety. If someone wants to think I’m not successful, that’s their problem.  I work hard, and I mostly work hard to be able to work normal, if that makes any sense. The type of effort I’m constantly making may not be visible, but it’s a lot to produce “average” output.

All of us, special challenges or not, have our skills/talents and our areas of weakness.  Learning how to maximize, work around, and prioritize to meet our personal goals is a really big deal.  And that includes being realistic about our abilities.

[Wheres Toto]

My oldest was in public school straight through, didn't have any learning issues 95% of the time but had struggles with certain subjects.   Her dad was a big pusher of "all A's and B's".    I never wanted to push specific grades but more just trying YOUR best.   Sometimes YOUR best won't get you an A or a B, sometimes there's a subject we just struggle with and no matter how hard we work we will not get that A or B.   Sometimes you'll figure it out and maybe get a better grade the next semester, but sometimes a C or even a D is the best we can do.  And that's okay.  As long as your trying your best (and sometimes that "best" isn't the same "best" you would put into something you like better, are more excited about, or need more for future goals), that's okay.  

[marbel]

Yeah, I have a kid with LDs and other issues. Too many times people have said things like "can't they just work harder?" as if that's all it would take.   

A good work ethic is a very good thing to have, but  you can keep working at something and never find success at it, by any definition, because of various factors. And unfortunately for many people, the definition of success is simply "making a lot of money." I see it with people who push their kids into STEM education/fields, even when they are not suited for it.  No one pushes their STEM-inclined kid towards the Humanities, LOL.  (I know this thread is not about that specifically, but my own personal rant that is related to learning differences/LDs/personal inclinations/etc.

It's infuriating. I don't have any answers, just commiseration.

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by marbel

[Bambam]

For me - success is whatever you define success as. Is it good grades? Is it a good high paying job? Or is it a job that you enjoy and makes you glad you get to go to work every day (and that supports you)? Is success being right with God? Is success doing good? What is your success?

I do not think just hard work is not the only ingredient for conventionally defined success. Luck, innate ability, timing (part of luck), and probably more are involved. There are some things I will never be successful at no matter how hard I work at them (tennis is one!). And for me, that's okay because there are other things I'm good at. 

There are more intelligences than just academic. Musical. Working/interacting with people (knowing the right thing to say!). etc. Maybe talking about those and showing they have value too would help? 

[SereneHome]

I actually think society shifted from the message of work hard and you will succeed. I am not sure what the messages are now, but whatever it is, I don't think it's a good one....

 

[Roadrunner]

I was just having this conversation with my friend yesterday. Locally growth mindset has been interpreted as “work hard, believe in yourself, and amazing results will follow.” It’s a terrible message because what happens when you do all those things year after year and you fall flat on your face? If your successes are yours, then so are failures. So how do we move on from those failures. You see this in school because how kids define success is very straightforward- grades, award both academic and athletic. Kids bust their butts but  all the trophies still go to a handful of the same kids year after year after year. 
We need a more realistic message for our kids. 

[Not_a_Number]

I think this one is a tricky one. There are things I'm really good at, and there are things that I'm really not, and I would have actually really benefited from the message that you get dealt the cards you're dealt, and then you have to work hard to make the best of them. Because as is, I wound up scorning the things I was LESS good at and only focusing on my strengths, and that wasn't right, either. 

So... I don't think anyone should say "practice makes perfect," but I also think it's important to communicate to kids that practice does let them improve, and that you need to do your best given what you're able to do. 

Of course, not acknowledging that there are differences in ability is also pretty toxic. I always figure that adults are there partially to make sense of reality for kids, and pretending things are the same when they are not is just crazy-making. 

[elegantlion]

Yeah, success is subjective - what kind? Hard work is a nebulous term, working long hours - being disciplined - doing only "important" things - doing your best? Working smart is one I hear too. 

My son figured out pretty early because of some of our life situations that life was also not fair - not everyone starts on the same field - that felt important for him to recognize. 

For some reason I think of farmers when someone talks about working hard. Farmers work hard, but there are still factors outside of their control that force them to course correct along the way. I don't anyone would dare tell most farmers to just work harder and they'll be a success. It's just not that simple. 

 

 

[Pen]

I am sorry he is struggling - and that’s hard on the mom too. 

I think we could use having different / better language.

IMO, We do need something (language) that encourages toward working on things — rather than laziness or giving up.  But I agree that if it doesn’t match experience and results that is really frustrating and perhaps itself discouraging.  Or if people believe that what they are seeing good reader / struggling reader relates to hard work / lack of hard work that can be totally just wrong and hurt the person with the innate struggle. 

With dyslexia in our family, it seemed to help to acknowledge that some academic tasks were harder for mine than for some other people, but that sticking with it would get results. 

The other part is that even in areas that come fairly easily to someone, in general applying oneself to becoming better at it does yield more improvement than no effort. 

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm sorry you're hurting. I have a DS on the spectrum, so I know the feeling. 

I think a lot of people are afraid to acknowledge that sheer luck is a thing, and that it affects all of us. To acknowledge the randomness of that takes away some degree of ones sense of control, and I think acknowledging that they can't control everything scares a lot of people.

Hugs.

 

Can you elaborate on that? I have heard many times people using that argument but not many have  been able to explain to me what exactly that means

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Can you elaborate on that? I have heard many times people using that argument but not many have  been able to explain to me what exactly that means

People are very binary. Either they focus on "it's just the luck of the draw" or they focus on "practice makes perfect." So, it's hard to get any level of nuance, and the people who focus on "practice makes perfect" often don't acknowledge that native ability or other things you can't change (so, luck) has a LOT to do with one's proficiency in a subject/situation in life/whatever. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[lovinmyboys]

15 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Can you elaborate on that? I have heard many times people using that argument but not many have  been able to explain to me what exactly that means

Well, currently I am in a phase where I think a lot of success is pure luck, so I’ll give you some examples. Being able to learn to read in just a few weeks is luck, being athletic enough to play varsity sports in high school is luck, graduating into a good economy is luck, being born to parents who love you and support you is luck, knowing someone who is hiring when you are looking for a job is luck. So I am not saying that getting a job or getting good grades or making a team is all luck, but some of it is luck. No matter how hard some people work, they could never play a varsity sport. Some people would make a great employee, but never get a chance because they don’t know the right people. Some kids can work and work and work and never get an A. If it isn’t in someone’s control, it is luck.

ETA: I just think that we should acknowledge that luck plays a part in success. Kids who get straight As or make varsity are not necessarily the hardest workers. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by lovinmyboys

[SereneHome]

9 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Well, currently I am in a phase where I think a lot of success is pure luck, so I’ll give you some examples. Being able to learn to read in just a few weeks is luck, being athletic enough to play varsity sports in high school is luck, graduating into a good economy is luck, being born to parents who love you and support you is luck, knowing someone who is hiring when you are looking for a job is luck. So I am not saying that getting a job or getting good grades or making a team is all luck, but some of it is luck. No matter how hard some people work, they could never play a varsity sport. Some people would make a great employee, but never get a chance because they don’t know the right people. Some kids can work and work and work and never get an A. If it isn’t in someone’s control, it is luck.

ETA: I just think that we should acknowledge that luck plays a part in success. Kids who get straight As or make varsity are not necessarily the hardest workers. 

I think that's the only one I would consider luck from your examples.

And yes, I agree, we should absolutely acknowledge that luck can be part of the success. I just think people too often use it as an excuse as to why they didn't succeeded (by whatever definition they use)

[wendyroo]

2 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

Well, currently I am in a phase where I think a lot of success is pure luck, so I’ll give you some examples. Being able to learn to read in just a few weeks is luck, being athletic enough to play varsity sports in high school is luck, graduating into a good economy is luck, being born to parents who love you and support you is luck, knowing someone who is hiring when you are looking for a job is luck. So I am not saying that getting a job or getting grades or making a team is all luck, but some of it is luck. No matter how hard some people work, they could never play a varsity sport. Some people would make a great employee, but never get a chance because they don’t know the right people. Some kids can work and work and work and never get an A. If it isn’t in someone’s control, it is luck.

I agree.

And, as to the bolded, it is a double edge sword.  Parents don't like their children getting bad grades, but OTOH, they also don't like classes that are heavily weighted toward attendance, participation, and extra credit so as to inflate grades to the point that anyone who tries can pass.

I think ideally everyone would be in classes geared to their achievement level such that the work is challenging but A or B level results are possible with effort. This seems much better to me than A) putting all kids in a super easy class so that everyone passes, but no one is exposed to high-level work or B) putting some kids in a class which is far too difficult and accepting that they will fail rather than aim for mastery of simpler material.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think that's the only one I would consider luck from your examples.

You don't think it's good luck if academics come easy to you? 

[SereneHome]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You don't think it's good luck if academics come easy to you? 

Not necessarily. There are so many other things a person can accomplish even without academics.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Not necessarily. There are so many other things a person can accomplish even without academics.

Sure, but having things valued by society come easy to you is good luck. 

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

You don't think it's good luck if academics come easy to you? 

Or you graduate into a good economy vs a recession? That's luck, because there is nothing you can do to affect it or change it. 

With my kids and students, I try to emphasize two things: work for its own satisfaction, and playing the odds. 

Work for its own satisfaction just means, to me, that it is satisfying and worthwhile to work hard and do the best job you can even if you don't always get recognized or awarded for it. Doing your best is an end unto itself. No one can take away the satisfaction of knowing you worked hard. The sense of achievement at finally accomplishing a certain task is worthwhile in and of itself. 

Playing the odds means exactly that. Working hard doesn't mean you will get a good grade, but it improves the odds. Working hard doesn't mean you will get a good job, but it improves the odds. Being prepared in general improves your odds. It's not always going to work. When it doesn't, see Reason 1. 

[Pawz4me]

39 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Can you elaborate on that? I have heard many times people using that argument but not many have  been able to explain to me what exactly that means

 

The  scenario (and the one that bugs me the most) where I hear it too frequently is regarding health. So many people think if they eat right, exercise, don't smoke that they'll have good health. Work hard enough at it and it will be so. And unfortunately that sometimes seems to lead to an arrogant attitude. Many people on the cancer board I belong to have had very hard lessons in that. People who were vegan their entire adult lives, ran triathalons and/or were at the gym every day. They simply had very bad genetic "luck." Nothing they did or didn't do was likely to affect their cancer diagnosis.

And the other scenario where it's most common is the one that applies more to this thread. Work hard and you can do anything/be anything you want to be. And to my way of thinking that's objectively not true. No matter how hard I worked I doubt that I'd ever be able to earn an engineering degree. I don't have the math ability. I just don't. I wasn't "lucky" enough to be born with that and no amount of work is going to change it. For my brother engineering is as easy as breathing. He had the "luck" of being born with that ability. OTOH I was "lucky" to be born with some skills that he will never be able to excel at.

I could go on--being born with a skin color that privileges one (or not), being born into a stable family (or not), entering the working world during a pandemic or during a thriving economy--these are all elements of luck. To deny that they have significant effects and can all be overcome by hard work is ignorant and cruel, IMO. And yet I know people who can't acknowledge that luck plays a significant role in anything. It bothers me a lot.

[SereneHome]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure, but having things valued by society come easy to you is good luck. 

Our society values many different things other than academics.

But to get back to my original question - how much "luck" does actually have to do with success?

 

[SereneHome]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

The  scenario (and the one that bugs me the most) where I hear it too frequently is regarding health. So many people think if they eat right, exercise, don't smoke that they'll have good health. Work hard enough at it and it will be so. And unfortunately that sometimes seems to lead to an arrogant attitude. Many people on the cancer board I belong to have had very hard lessons in that. People who were vegan their entire adult lives, ran triathalons and/or were at the gym every day. They simply had very bad genetic "luck." Nothing they did or didn't do was likely to affect their cancer diagnosis.

And the other scenario where it's most common is the one that applies more to this thread. Work hard and you can do anything/be anything you want to be. And to my way of thinking that's objectively not true. No matter how hard I worked I doubt that I'd ever be able to earn an engineering degree. I don't have the math ability. I just don't. I wasn't "lucky" enough to be born with that and no amount of work is going to change it. For my brother engineering is as easy as breathing. He had the "luck" of being born with that ability. OTOH I was "lucky" to be born with some skills that he will never be able to excel at.

I could go on--being born with a skin color that privileges one (or not), being born into a stable family (or not), entering the working world during a pandemic or during a thriving economy--these are all elements of luck. To deny that they have significant effects and can all be overcome by hard work is ignorant and cruel, IMO. And yet I know people who can't acknowledge that luck plays a significant role in anything. It bothers me a lot.

Yes!!! That I agree with 10000%. Health and being born to parents who love and support you is definitely luck and can make success much much easier.

Everything else (that I can think of) can be worked around.

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

The  scenario (and the one that bugs me the most) where I hear it too frequently is regarding health. So many people think if they eat right, exercise, don't smoke that they'll have good health. Work hard enough at it and it will be so. And unfortunately that sometimes seems to lead to an arrogant attitude. Many people on the cancer board I belong to have had very hard lessons in that. People who were vegan their entire adult lives, ran triathalons and/or were at the gym every day. They simply had very bad genetic "luck." Nothing they did or didn't do was likely to affect their cancer diagnosis.

And the other scenario where it's most common is the one that applies more to this thread. Work hard and you can do anything/be anything you want to be. And to my way of thinking that's objectively not true. No matter how hard I worked I doubt that I'd ever be able to earn an engineering degree. I don't have the math ability. I just don't. I wasn't "lucky" enough to be born with that and no amount of work is going to change it. For my brother engineering is as easy as breathing. He had the "luck" of being born with that ability. OTOH I was "lucky" to be born with some skills that he will never be able to excel at.

I could go on--being born with a skin color that privileges one (or not), being born into a stable family (or not), entering the working world during a pandemic or during a thriving economy--these are all elements of luck. To deny that they have significant effects and can all be overcome by hard work is ignorant and cruel, IMO. And yet I know people who can't acknowledge that luck plays a significant role in anything. It bothers me a lot.

Bolding by me. I've seen this here on the covid threads (and many other topics in the past) - We're not worried about it, because we live a healthy lifestyle and take the right supplements to have a strong immune system. 

I hear you on the being anything you want to be, and really the entirety of your post. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Our society values many different things other than academics.

But to get back to my original question - how much "luck" does actually have to do with success?

 

I’d say it’s part of success but not all.

[lovinmyboys]

1 minute ago, SereneHome said:

Our society values many different things other than academics.

But to get back to my original question - how much "luck" does actually have to do with success?

 

So here is what is happening right now in my life. My middle two kids are just a little over a year apart (one grade apart) and the younger of the two is pretty much good at everything he does-drawing, acting, sports, academics, etc. He gets a lot of praise for both his accomplishments and his hard work. The thing is, he does not work harder than his older brother who does not do well at sports, or art, or academics. When people really praise hard work it makes it seem like he is somehow more worthy of his talent or like he did something to earn it. He didn’t do that any more than his brother did. So it is doubly hard for my older one because not only is he not as talented, but people assume that he also lacks important character traits like hard work.

 

I agree that the older of the two still has it within his power to be a successful adult, but he is not “successful” right now at the things he is doing and I don’t like it when people imply that it is his fault or if he would just work harder he could accomplish the same things his younger brother does.

 

[Paige]

I think it's the American internalization of the protestant work ethic and all those bootstrap ideas. I used to believe in it too but now I don't really. I see that some people are successful with very little work. Some of the very best students actually do the least amount of studying, organization, or any kind of work. Other people work hard and have little pay off. Maybe they aren't as successful because they lack natural talent, but often, I see that things out of their control are holding them down- who they know, natural disasters, randomness. 

It's not that I don't think there's value in hard work, but I feel it's not "everything" and it's not some kind of magic that makes anything happen for anyone.

 

[Pawz4me]

A very ignorant person once had the audacity to tell my then 5 yo DS--when she knew he was in OT for fine motor and other issues--that he could write and draw better if he would just try harder. It was one of the most rage inducing things I've ever experienced.

[Not_a_Number]

It's an interesting question, though, because hard work DOES produce better results than lack thereof. Although, frankly, sometimes the issue is the KIND OF work. 

When I was teaching college calculus, practically all of my kids would work hard studying for the exam. The problem is some kids "studied" by carefully and fastidiously reading solutions to problems. Unsurprisingly, this work didn't pay off, because they couldn't then remember how to do the problems on the test! The right way to work was to actually do problems. It didn't take any longer and wasn't any harder... they just didn't know. 

So, it's not just hard work, either. It's knowing how to tell whether you're growing and improving. It's having a sense for what progress feels like. 

[SereneHome]

14 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

So here is what is happening right now in my life. My middle two kids are just a little over a year apart (one grade apart) and the younger of the two is pretty much good at everything he does-drawing, acting, sports, academics, etc. He gets a lot of praise for both his accomplishments and his hard work. The thing is, he does not work harder than his older brother who does not do well at sports, or art, or academics. When people really praise hard work it makes it seem like he is somehow more worthy of his talent or like he did something to earn it. He didn’t do that any more than his brother did. So it is doubly hard for my older one because not only is he not as talented, but people assume that he also lacks important character traits like hard work.

 

I agree that the older of the two still has it within his power to be a successful adult, but he is not “successful” right now at the things he is doing and I don’t like it when people imply that it is his fault or if he would just work harder he could accomplish the same things his younger brother does.

 

Who does it seem to? To you? To him?

I think it's important to recognize and appreciate things that come easily to us but not stop the recognition there. 

[lovinmyboys]

8 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Who does it seem to? To you? To him?

I think it's important to recognize and appreciate things that come easily to us but not stop the recognition there. 

It seems like that to him, which is obviously not how I want my pre teen boy thinking. And it is because of what adults (who are probably well meaning) say and act.

[Roadrunner]

I think also belief than we are all good at something is false. We can be relatively better at certain things than others, but most of us have no hidden talents. I am firmly in a nature camp. Does nurture matter? Absolutely, but only as much as nature supports it. And nature is brutal. 
The reason any of this matters is because our society only values academic success and good looks, both things we can’t excel at without tremendous endowment from nature. 
I have no idea what message to give our children. In my house I say at least hard work puts you into the lottery bin. Otherwise you aren’t playing. I promise nothing. 

[Carrie12345]

38 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

So here is what is happening right now in my life. My middle two kids are just a little over a year apart (one grade apart) and the younger of the two is pretty much good at everything he does-drawing, acting, sports, academics, etc. He gets a lot of praise for both his accomplishments and his hard work. The thing is, he does not work harder than his older brother who does not do well at sports, or art, or academics. When people really praise hard work it makes it seem like he is somehow more worthy of his talent or like he did something to earn it. He didn’t do that any more than his brother did. So it is doubly hard for my older one because not only is he not as talented, but people assume that he also lacks important character traits like hard work.

 

I agree that the older of the two still has it within his power to be a successful adult, but he is not “successful” right now at the things he is doing and I don’t like it when people imply that it is his fault or if he would just work harder he could accomplish the same things his younger brother does.

 

Honestly, I’d mention how proud I was off all my kids and tell whoever these people are to STFU.

My 22yo and 18yo are very different people.  The younger might be considered “more successful” than the older. I’ve never had an idiot dare to say anything about that to my face.

[SereneHome]

14 minutes ago, lovinmyboys said:

It seems like that to him, which is obviously not how I want my pre teen boy thinking. And it is because of what adults (who are probably well meaning) say and act.

Yeah, I think I have a kid like that so I get what you are saying. I am very blunt in telling my kid that all his talents might be flushed down the toilet if he doesn't learn discipline, consistency and responsibility.

 

[SereneHome]

6 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think also belief than we are all good at something is false. We can be relatively better at certain things than others, but most of us have no hidden talents. I am firmly in a nature camp. Does nurture matter? Absolutely, but only as much as nature supports it. And nature is brutal. 
The reason any of this matters is because our society only values academic success and good looks, both things we can’t excel at without tremendous endowment from nature. 
I have no idea what message to give our children. In my house I say at least hard work puts you into the lottery bin. Otherwise you aren’t playing. I promise nothing. 

Yes!!! I think I am that person!! I am relatively OK at things but not great at all

I am fairly  blunt and  may be sometimes too mean - I tell them that no matter how smart or talented they might be, they have to be responsible and disciplined. I tell them that there will always be someone better, richer, luckier than they are and that's OK. I tell them that they should dream big but also be OK with whatever happens bc resilience is so so important.

My goal is to give them a nice balance of optimism, hope and reality.

Edited October 18, 2020 by SereneHome

[Meriwether]

I feel like society is moving rapidly to the "success is based on luck" attitude - to the detriment of many people. Yes, everyone is born with strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes it seems that people are born with all strengths or all weaknesses. Many things come easily to my oldest. Many things are a struggle for my second. It does absolutely no good to compare them. I teach them both to work hard within their personal situations. Their situations are different. Their outcomes will be different in the specifics. But they can both live happy, fulfilling lives.

[Roadrunner]

13 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Yes!!! I think I am that person!! I am relatively OK at things but not great at all

Did you ever feel you were failing at finding your special talent? Or a special passion? 
I think so many of us are searching endlessly and never finding. It’s a form of torture if you ask me. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Roadrunner

[wendyroo]

29 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

Yes!!! That I agree with 10000%. Health and being born to parents who love and support you is definitely luck and can make success much much easier.

Everything else (that I can think of) can be worked around.

I don't think that just because something can be worked around doesn't mean it is bad luck or working against a person.

A current events example: voting.  Clearly, some people can work around waiting in line for 8+ hours to vote, but that doesn't negate the fact that I am gosh darn lucky that I have never had to wait more than 10 minutes where I live.  I have done nothing to deserve faster voting, but I have it none the less.

My kids are lucky to be elementary and early middle school ages during this pandemic rather than high school, college, or young adults when the stakes are much higher.  If they were older, clearly we/they would work around it - but they are lucky not to have to do that.

I was academically unlucky to grow up in a very rural school district that did not offer many advanced classes that would have challenged and prepared me.  I clearly worked around that since I went to MIT, but it doesn't change the fact that I nearly dropped out after one semester because despite being the valedictorian with far above a 4. GPA, I still was woefully underprepared by the education that was available to me.

There are plenty of studies that show that having the "right" color skin, the "right" name, the "right" gender impact a person's success.  You can work around those things, but statistically they will always be a ball and chain dragging you down a little bit.

A high school student who can use their work earnings for field trips, tutoring, club activities or a foreign exchange trip (me)  is lucky compared to one who has to use every penny to pay the family's heat bill (my mother).  It certainly doesn't mean the second student cannot be successful, but it is not a level playing field. 

I think one big difference between me and my mother (between the lucky and the unlucky) is not whether we were successful (we both were), but how many paths to success were available to us.  There certainly were some paths closed to me - my eyesight is not good enough to be an astronaut and I doubt that even with extensive practice I could have made it as a professional musician - but largely I could get where ever I wanted to with hard work.  My mother's opportunities were much, much more limited, not because she did not work as hard as me, but because in many aspects of her life, luck was not on her side.

 

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think also belief that we are all good at something is false.

Hmmmmm. That's probably true, I guess, but I actually think we expect too little and not too much out of kids. I don't think you have to be "the best" at something to be a thoughtful person who knows what it means to know things. 

[Roadrunner]

10 minutes ago, Meriwether said:

I feel like society is moving rapidly to the "success is based on luck" attitude - to the detriment of many people. Yes, everyone is born with strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes it seems that people are born with all strengths or all weaknesses. Many things come easily to my oldest. Many things are a struggle for my second. It does absolutely no good to compare them. I teach them both to work hard within their personal situations. Their situations are different. Their outcomes will be different in the specifics. But they can both live happy, fulfilling lives.

Right, so we don’t want the society laying on its back saying everything is predetermining by genetics anyway.

I have no answer to this. I think the reason there is so much drug use (both legal and illegal) is because so many of us feel like failures. 

[SereneHome]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

Did you ever feel you were failing at finding your special talent? Or a social passion? 
I think so many of us are searching endlessly and never finding. It’s a form of torture if you ask me. 

I think I am too lazy to even wonder...lol

Interestingly enough, when I was a kid, I was told that I am "smart" by teachers. A lot of things did come easy to me. But it did NOT translate into any kind of major life success. I think I am too lazy.  But again, my current boss keeps telling me that she hired me bc "I am smart". I feel like a complete fake bc...I don't think I am that smart.

I do wonder if there is something, anything, I am really good at.

 

[TAFKAPastry]

I think the proper message is, that whatever your varied and native talents and attributes, consistent and diligent work at honing and improving those is good for both character and outcome. No one is benefitted by giving up and letting circumstances roll them. Even a highly privileged and gifted individual is going to benefit from concerted application toward self improvement.

The rub comes in where we simplify that message to be “work = material and professional success”. Sometimes work just means being able to get a spoon to mouth without dumping the contents, or holding down a part time job. And that’s OKAY and good, too. The oversimplification of the message is the problem more than the message, itself, IMO.

*back to lurking...*

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmmm. That's probably true, I guess, but I actually think we expect too little and not too much out of kids. I don't think you have to be "the best" at something to be a thoughtful person who knows what it means to know things. 

I agree with this absolutely. 

I also agree that schools have terribly low standards. 
 

Those are different arguments.

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I agree with this absolutely. 

I also agree that schools have terribly low standards. 
 

Those are different arguments.

Different arguments from what? From the idea that everyone has a hidden gift? 

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Different arguments from what? From the idea that everyone has a hidden gift? 

Yes, that we are all somehow layers of onion with talents to be discovered and each is gifted in something and hard work can get us all on pedestal. I mean that’s what schools are pushing here. 
Pedestals matter though, because that’s the way you get to success as society defines it. But there is only one first place and for the 99% trying to get there is futile. Yet I am not against competition, because for many, those are very, very motivating. 
 

so how do we tell kids the truth and keep them motivated? Truth being they can work extremely hard and still fail. 
 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Tanaqui]

16 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I think I am too lazy to even wonder...lol

Interestingly enough, when I was a kid, I was told that I am "smart" by teachers. A lot of things did come easy to me. But it did NOT translate into any kind of major life success. I think I am too lazy.  But again, my current boss keeps telling me that she hired me bc "I am smart". I feel like a complete fake bc...I don't think I am that smart.

I do wonder if there is something, anything, I am really good at.

 

Well, you seem to be really good at imposter syndrome! Welcome to the club.

[J-rap]

Maybe the best you can do (as a parent) is give your kids the life skills they'll need that'll hopefully get them through most situations.

Some kids naturally will want to excel beyond that and are really driven, but that's different.  

So what does that mean?  I'd say it means teach them to read, to write decently, to communicate as effectively as they can, to not be afraid to speak up and do the right thing, to take the lead when necessary, to be reliable and dependable, to be on time, to know how to commit to something, to cook (at least the basics), to be wise with money and finances, to stick with a commitment, to be kind to others, to know it's okay to ask for help, to take time to relax and just enjoy life, to be positive and hopeful even in dire situations, to listen to others, to learn to go with the flow sometimes, to find joy in little things, to be okay with boredom sometimes, to know how to say you're sorry, and to accept your limitations.  (That list turned out to be a lot longer than I was planning!)

And also to prepare them that life definitely won't always go as planned, and that's okay.  It's just life.

Luck really is a big part of opportunities that present themselves -- being in the right place at the right time, who you know, etc.  I think more now than ever.  That can be really frustrating sometimes.  And of course bad luck an enter in at anytime too, despite all we try to do to prevent it.

But chances are, if you have the skills above, then even in challenging times, you're going to be okay.  And surprisingly, even being an average student academically but having good life skills can really get you far -- even just by being dependable and following through with what's expected of you.

[frogger]

5 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

Growing up, people told me that hard work brought success. It is something I had accepted without thinking about it. Now, I am not sure that it is true (I guess it also depends on the definition of success).

I have one child who struggles with learning new things. He is currently getting tested, so I should know more soon, but my guess is he has dyslexia and possibly ADHD and maybe something else-I don’t know. I don’t think he is a harder than average worker, but he definitely works hard. Throughout his life he has had coaches and other adult influences tell him if he would just work harder, then x would happen. X usually doesn’t happen. I’m trying to figure out new language to use with him, because as he gets older he sees that isn’t true and I think he feels confused. 
 

Another problem with the “hard work” thing is I have heard it used as another way of saying “parents have money to pay for private lessons or tutoring.” 

I guess my point is that I wish our society would maybe do more to acknowledge that hard work is not the only thing that makes people successful. It seems to me that it is used (sometimes) as a way for people to look down on others who aren’t as successful as them-well, he didn’t work as hard. Sometimes, what society sees as hard work is actually just innate talent, good executive function, ability to pay for lessons, etc. 

 

It absolutely is used by many to look down on others. People have a tendancy to want to be superior. It is a flaw in human nature but we can choose to be different.

5 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

And, my other point is, I am hurting for my son. Like I said, he is a preteen boy so he definitely loves to play and would choose running around outside over math, but he works hard too, and I feel like this narrative is hurting him. It took him 3 years to learn to read-not because he tried less than other kids. I would say my other 3 learned to read in about 3 months-they did not try harder than him. He didn’t come begging for reading lessons or pick up books on his own, but he worked hard during the time I required. Overall, he worked a lot harder to learn to read than my other kids, but no one has told them to work harder. I just hate that he gets double criticized for being not good at something. First, he isn’t good at it and second he doesn’t work hard enough. 

The problem with childhood is that so much of it is about academics. My third child has dyslexia but he is an amazing person. He is the most practical and already fixes things I can't. He is a hard worker and has amazing observational skills. I could give you examples that floored me but I don't want to make this long.

Hard work still pays off though. We let him excel through hard work at many things that he will be able to use his whole life and be really really good at.

His hard work at reading and writing will also pay off. The goal just looks different. He doesn't need to write like a literature major. He needs to not have reading and writing hold him back from those other things he wants to be successful at. Hard work still pays off but encourage him at those things he is good at too. Let him know they are valuable and he is a valued member of your family and can be a valuable member of society.

[Pawz4me]

20 minutes ago, TAFKAPastry said:

I think the proper message is, that whatever your varied and native talents and attributes, consistent and diligent work at honing and improving those is good for both character and outcome. No one is benefitted by giving up and letting circumstances roll them. Even a highly privileged and gifted individual is going to benefit from concerted application toward self improvement.

The rub comes in where we simplify that message to be “work = material and professional success”. Sometimes work just means being able to get a spoon to mouth without dumping the contents, or holding down a part time job. And that’s OKAY and good, too. The oversimplification of the message is the problem more than the message, itself, IMO.

*back to lurking...*

Absolutely!

Hard work should be valued and recognized, regardless of what type or level of "success" it leads to.

Likewise (and conversely, maybe), the role that luck plays in life should also be acknowledged.

Nuance is a thing.