Question for Evangelicals

[teachermom2834]

Would Amy Coney Barrett be welcome in your homeschool group? Could she teach at your co-op? Be on the board? Would you allow your kids to be friends with her kids? Allow your teenagers to date her teenagers? 

I am asking sincerely as a homeschooler of almost 20 years in a few different towns in the Bible Belt. As a Catholic I have experienced both welcoming and rejection from homeschool activities. I definitely have found acceptance in some groups so I’m not painting with a broad brush here. 
 

In regards to the SCOTUS, I always find it a bit jarring the support Catholic justices get from the Evangelical crowd; the same folks that won’t let me teach a co-op class or serve in a leadership position or coach a homeschool team or whatever. The sadness and grief over the loss of Scalia, the support for Kavanaugh and now especially Barrett. 
 

I am very non confrontational and not asking in an accusatory way. I’m not looking for an argument. I just have watched this play out over and over and it always puzzles me. 
 

Any thoughts? Please be kind. I’m really not looking to argue but this keeps coming up.

[TAFKAPastry]

So, there are lots of events were ecumenism is awesome, or where a philosophical agreement on the importance of faith supersedes the specific doctrine.

Any co op I’ve been in has been neutral or secular, so yeah, she’d be welcome as all religions are. Our private school, no, her theology would probably conflict with a number of the doctrinal specifics and not be a good fit. But that’s okay too, I think there is a time and a place where specifics matter more.

If Barrett held a judicial philosophy that fit one’s own preferred framework for judicial constitutional interpretation, why would the specifics of her personal faith matter? There is no religious test for a judge or congressperson for a reason, I think. And generally speaking someone who respects freedom for their own faith should be respecting it for others, too, and would be able to stand together on that principle.  I feel the same way about Judaism, Islam, etc. 

I guess I’d say, in some teaching or religious contexts the specifics matter. But in civics, the general philosophical trajectory is important, not any sort of specific faith divide. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by TAFKAPastry

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, TAFKAPastry said:

So, there are lots of events were ecumenism is awesome, or where a philosophical agreement on the importance of faith supersedes the specific doctrine.

Any co op I’ve been in has been neutral or secular, so yeah, she’d be welcome as all religions are. Our private school, no, her theology would probably conflict with a number of the doctrinal specifics and not be a good fit. But that’s okay too, I think there is a time and a place where specifics matter more.

If Barrett held a judicial philosophy that fit one’s own preferred framework for judicial constitutional interpretation, why would the specifics of her personal faith matter? There is no religious test for a judge or congressperson for a reason, I think. And generally speaking someone who respects freedom for their own faith should be respecting it for others, too, and would be able to stand together on that principle.  I feel the same way about Judaism, Islam, etc. 

I guess I’d say, in some teaching or religious contexts the specifics matter. But in civics, the general philosophical trajectory is important, not any sort of specific faith divide. 

Thanks for answering and that does make sense. And I always feel like these groups have a right to exist and make their own rules. Just doesn’t feel good to be excluded from a field trip to a farm or whatever. 
 

Honestly it always comes across that we are bad people and will hurt their children if they are around us. But I have seen things in regards to Barrett that are not about her judicial philosophy but specifically about her life as a Christian. One of these people wrote (on FB of course!) that ACB is “the hands and feet of Jesus.” Yet this same person doesn’t want me around. That’s what I have a hard time with. 
 

So, on the surface I do get it. People are entitled to form groups of their own even if it hurts my feelings. 

[Guest]

I hear you on that. The homeschool co-op I was a member of for 16 years was ecumenical and the original founding members were mostly Catholic, and it was held at a Catholic church. For a brief period, the animosity ran in the opposite direction and there was a splinter-off at one time where a Catholic member was upset that there were some members who were not Christian. (The non-Christians were Jewish usually.) This person formed her own group that was specifically Catholic. 

But I did grow up under the delusion that Catholics were not “really Christians,” and my dad defected from Catholicism in adulthood. So I definitely hear where you’re coming from. 

[theelfqueen]

So, the enrichment group we've been involved with in the past has a Statement of Faith for staff members and teachers that is not in keeping with my personal stance and would not allow a Catholic to teach. These things are the reason I chose not to teach or volunteer for a more involved position. ... but to participate you only had to sign an acknowledgement that teachers will be coming from that philosophy not that you believe it or commit to it... since we were taking karate and art and improv classes and things like that, not really doorways for theology, and there wasn't another good option for us... we went with it. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by theelfqueen

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

I hear you on that. The homeschool co-op I was a member of for 16 years was ecumenical and the original founding members were mostly Catholic, and it was held at a Catholic church. For a brief period, the animosity ran in the opposite direction and there was a splinter-off at one time where a Catholic member was upset that there were some members who were not Christian. (The non-Christians were Jewish usually.) This person formed her own group that was specifically Catholic. 

But I did grow up under the delusion that Catholics were not “really Christians,” and my dad defected from Catholicism in adulthood. So I definitely hear where you’re coming from. 

I also have been around super hard core Catholics too who would be uncomfortable with anyone but the most conservative Catholics and that is not for me either.

 

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, theelfqueen said:

So, the enrichment group we've been involved with has a Statement of Faith for staff members and teachers that is not in keeping with my personal stance and would not allow a Catholic to teach.... but to participate you only had to sign an acknowledgement that teachers will be coming from that philosophy not that you believe it or commit to it... since we were taking karate and art and improv classes and things like that, not really doorways for theology, and there wasn't another good option for us... we went with it. 

I have heard of this approach and wouldn’t have a problem with it. It’s pretty liberal as far as the statements I’ve encountered.

[Ellie]

20 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Would Amy Coney Barrett be welcome in your homeschool group? Could she teach at your co-op? Be on the board? Would you allow your kids to be friends with her kids? Allow your teenagers to date her teenagers? 

I am asking sincerely as a homeschooler of almost 20 years in a few different towns in the Bible Belt. As a Catholic I have experienced both welcoming and rejection from homeschool activities. I definitely have found acceptance in some groups so I’m not painting with a broad brush here.

In regards to the SCOTUS, I always find it a bit jarring the support Catholic justices get from the Evangelical crowd; the same folks that won’t let me teach a co-op class or serve in a leadership position or coach a homeschool team or whatever. The sadness and grief over the loss of Scalia, the support for Kavanaugh and now especially Barrett. 

I am very non confrontational and not asking in an accusatory way. I’m not looking for an argument. I just have watched this play out over and over and it always puzzles me.

Any thoughts? Please be kind. I’m really not looking to argue but this keeps coming up.

The use of the term "evangelicals" always confuses me, especially now that I have returned to the Catholic Church. 🙂 I assume you mean Protestants, or, as I like to say, non-Catholic Christians. I don't know which group of non-Catholic Christians would be included in the term "evangelical," or even "fundamental," because shouldn't all Christians be evangelical and fundamental?

Back in the day when I was a non-Catholic Christian, some of the groups I was familiar with would not have been comfortable allowing Catholics to participate. Some had statements of faith which would have excluded most Catholics, usually a statement about the Bible being the final authority in all matters. I saw a well-established support group fall apart because of some Catholic vs non-Catholic issues that were terribly mishandled by the leader. It was very sad. 😞  And I have apologized to my Catholic homeschool friends for any part I might have played in that (they are not the ones involved in that situation, but I cannot apologize to those people; I can only apologize to the ones I know now); they were gracious and said that people have a right to associate with whoever they want to associate with, and if a group of homeschoolers prefers to associate only with others of like mind, well, that's fine. There's nothing that prevents Catholic homeschoolers from doing their own support groups and co-ops and whatnot.

But you know, this kind of thing has been going on since the Reformation.

[teachermom2834]

I understand the issues with Catholics vs Protestants in homeschool groups. Been in that stage of life for a long time.

I’m just especially intrigued by those I know that are holding ACB up as a picture of Christian motherhood but would not consider the neighborhood Catholic homeschool mom as such.

[Gobblygook]

Yes, absolutely. We have a statement of faith that is general enough that both Catholics and Protestants would feel welcome. While I know at least one family is Catholic just through conversation, it's not something that is asked upon enrollment. Of the families I don't know as well, I really have no idea of their church affiliation. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Gobblygook

[Ellie]

3 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I understand the issues with Catholics vs Protestants in homeschool groups. Been in that stage of life for a long time.

I’m just especially intrigued by those I know that are holding ACB up as a picture of Christian motherhood but would not consider the neighborhood Catholic homeschool mom as such.

I don't think there's any way to really explain it. Also, many of the people who are holding her up as a picture of Christian motherhood are not non-Catholic Christian homeschoolers who are all weirded out about their groups being infiltrated by the Catholics (and yes, although most of my non-Catholic Christian friends were mildly puzzled by Catholicism, there were some that were red-hot against anything Catholic. I never understood them. Of course, they also felt that way about Pentecostals who spoke in tongues, so there you go).

[historically accurate]

I've been a member of four different co-ops over my years of homeschooling.

First 2 co-ops we joined were open. Anyone who wanted to attend, teach, or be on the board was eligible. One of those co-ops allowed non-homeschoolers to attend pre-K classes or activities that were outside of normal school hours.

Third one (we used solely for robotics), Catholics (but not Jewish, Latter Day Saints, and something else - JW?) were allowed to attend, but not teach.

Fourth one (only high school option locally) was a hard no on anything other than members or regular attenders of specific styles of churches in the area. They asked at an interview prior to membership. No, the Catholic churches did not make the list.  

And, yes, I know from my FB feed that many of the ladies from the fourth co-op support ACB's confirmation.  In those cases, they also support a Presidential candidate  who I feel is not living Christian ideals, but it is due to him being seen as the warrior to fight the war that they feel is being waged against Christian America. I assume their support of ACB is a vote for a (any) pro-life justice. 

[kbutton]

39 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Honestly it always comes across that we are bad people and will hurt their children if they are around us. But I have seen things in regards to Barrett that are not about her judicial philosophy but specifically about her life as a Christian. One of these people wrote (on FB of course!) that ACB is “the hands and feet of Jesus.” Yet this same person doesn’t want me around. That’s what I have a hard time with. 
 

So, on the surface I do get it. People are entitled to form groups of their own even if it hurts my feelings. 

I am not sure how people are locally on this because I avoid groups that are overtly faith-based for this reason, among other reasons.

I am a non-Catholic evangelical, and my own personal philosophy is more about circles of influence--if someone is teaching my child doctrine, I want them to be as alike to mine as possible, or I want to know what's up so that I can discuss it with my kids. Other subjects or interactions? Not a big deal to me; I have lots of Catholic family, and it gets easier and easier to find points of agreement all the time and to respectfully discuss the points of disagreement if that becomes necessary (it's usually just a question, not a controversy). There are definitely people who would sign the same doctrinal statement as me who would alarm me, and that is one reason I avoid overtly faith-based groups. Case in point, we've been watching a documentary on the Challenger disaster, and I remember my 4th grade non-Catholic Christian school teacher saying that the disaster was like the Tower of Babel--mankind overstepped, and we should take note. She made these sorts of remarks on the day the shuttle exploded. She's also a pastor's wife. I find that horrifying, and while that person's beliefs would look more like mine on paper than Catholic beliefs would, count me out on allowing that person to pass along their worldview in a faith-based class my kids are attending. (My kids have heard this story, so I am not sheltering them from ugly ideas, just from having to process it real time and process it as having come from an authority figure.)

That said, my fellow non-Catholic evangelicals are often inconsistent about things like this. I think it's both a lack of sensitivity and a slow change with more people becoming accepting of differing Christian views broadly, while not tightening their circles relationship-wise with Christians from other denominations. The lines are less clear in some contexts and just as clear as always in other contexts.

I do know some people that have toyed with enrolling their kids in the local Catholic schools, and the biggest problem that came up was actually with fundraisers that are largely based on gambling--the fundraisers were set it stone and participation was required. So there's that. (ETA: I was surprised that was the only objection raised--people are being a little more inclusive in some areas of life.)

22 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I understand the issues with Catholics vs Protestants in homeschool groups. Been in that stage of life for a long time.

I’m just especially intrigued by those I know that are holding ACB up as a picture of Christian motherhood but would not consider the neighborhood Catholic homeschool mom as such.

Not your imagination.

Edited October 13, 2020 by kbutton
clarity

[gardenmom5]

31 minutes ago, Ellie said:

The use of the term "evangelicals" always confuses me, especially now that I have returned to the Catholic Church. 🙂 I assume you mean Protestants, or, as I like to say, non-Catholic Christians.  

I've always been under the impression "evangelical" is a far more narrow term than "just" protestants (which is a very large and diverse group) as a body. (my maternal grandmother was one when she was younger - but eventually only watched televangelists on TV.)  And it's not just Catholics they exclude.  It seems to be those who exclude - exclude everyone who doesn't meet their own very narrow definition of what makes a Christian.  I live in a major metro in the PNW - but I've heard some eye raising things from evangelicals, starting as far  back as when I was in jr high.  my dd got it in 2nd grade when some evangelical kid told her she was going to hell unless she repented.   I believe it was a more extreme family as they pulled their kids to send them to an evangelical private school.)

A LDS family moved to the southern bible belt, and wrote an article on their experience.  If you weren't an evangelical - you had no  social life. Even kids at school wouldn't play with you.  So - they started attending the 'E" church weekly pot lucks, etc.  Their kids even participated in their scripture mastery (or whatever they called it.) sponsored by the local church.  They just didn't go to church with them on Sunday.  The ministers started praising them because of how much they participated in the activities that supported their smaller town.  What started off as being excluded, slowly changed to where they were part of the group - even though they didn't go to church with them on Sunday.  When some traveling preacher came through town to do a dog and pony about how terrible and unchristian LDS are - the evangelical ministers threw him out.  (compare this to a number of years ago - a group of evangelicals went to SLC to go door to door to tell LDS how unchristian they were and they needed to repent.)

 

eta: I recall similar conversation before - and there were some mainline protestants (I think one was Methodist.  My mother briefly attended a Methodist church as a teen - and my evangelical grandmother flipped her lid.)  that posted who were not allowed in evangelical homeschool groups.  Evangelical most definitely does not = protestant.  That's like saying rectangles = squares.  all rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles.

Edited October 13, 2020 by gardenmom5

[teachermom2834]

I do understand supporting a pro life candidate even if you disagree with other things. I would not think twice if I was seeing support for her specifically as a pro-life candidate or supportive of the 2nd amendment or such.

What is getting me is the support as a Christian mom or a Godly woman or as someone who knows the Lord. Those are not terms usually used for Catholics!

I’m not bitter about it just perplexed. I generally think it is a good thing and maybe lead to greater understanding. 
 

It’s just a head scratcher sometimes!

[klmama]

She would be welcome in our Christian co-op if she were able to agree with the statement of faith.  No one who agrees with it is turned away.  There have been some Catholics who were comfortable with it, describing themselves as "Bible-believing Christians raising children in the Catholic tradition," and no one had a problem with them being there.  Other Catholics have not been comfortable signing to join because of the statement's emphasis on the Bible (since they regard Catholic tradition as highly or higher than they do the Bible) or because of the point about salvation being through faith (since they regarded infant baptism to be sufficient for salvation).   I don't think many Catholics are particularly interested in being in our co-op, though, because they have a very large Catholic group with many opportunities for outside learning, field trips, etc.  

ETA:  I used to teach in a Catholic school, and my contract stipulated that I would not teach anything or comport myself in any way that went against Catholic doctrine.  All teachers had to sign that, even though most were Catholic.  So, I don't think having a statement of faith in a co-op is unusual or surprising.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by klmama

[happi duck]

Agreeing with @gardenmom5

evangelicals =/= all Christians that aren't Catholic

I stumbled into evangelical world for a time and thankfully got out.  I don't know how to define "evangelicalism".  It is not the same a evangelism.

I am a Christian but I am not Catholic and I am not an evangelical.

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, kand said:

And to muddy it further, not all evangelical Christian churches are in line with the dominant political and social beliefs currently associated with evangelical Christians. It’s unfortunate that all that politicizing has made “evangelical” into a bad word for most of those outside the evangelical church. It’s basically causing the opposite effect of what the word means 😢. 

That said, you would be welcome at the co-op I attend, but that’s because we are open to everyone, no matter their faith.

Yeah.  One thing I learned from my dad, when looking at "groups", you have to take individuals as individuals.  You can't lump.

I joked that to my grandmother, WASP (white anglo-saxon protestant) was an overly broad definition to who she considered "acceptable".

eta: and while the squeaky wheel often gets the grease - some of those squeakers  (on both the left and the right) deserve to be shut down. They have little/no respect for others.   The constitution made clear there was to be no favored religion (in a day when many had fled countries with "state" religions to which you must belong or you were an outcast. e.g. for those who do genealogy - you know in Scandinavian countries - the church records were the state records.), but there are some today (on both sides) who want everyone to agree with them - or else.

Edited October 13, 2020 by gardenmom5

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, I'm am Evangelical. Evangelicals are a sub set of Protestants, including some Southern Baptists who take great pride in telling people they aren't Protestant because they're theologically descended from those who never had to protest the Catholic church.  Ok, whatever, Karen. 

The majority of Evangelicals I personally know only acknowledge Catholics as real Christians when it's perceived as political gain. Sad, but true. When it comes a religious context, most don't consider them real Christians.  I have no idea what the Roman Catholic Church's view is on people who profess to be Christians but aren't part of  the Roman Catholic Church.

I have a low opinion of homeschool groups and homeschoolers that require/want signing a statement of faith.My kids are around and homeschool and neighborhood friends with people of different faiths and cultures.

As the parent of an international adoptee, I'm rolling my eyes at all of ACB's support from the "America First!" crowd, many of whom are avid, "Adopt American kids first!" types and go to international adoption pages and leave such comments. Again, it's obviously only for perceived political gain that they now like her.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

 

The majority of Evangelicals I personally know only acknowledge Catholics as real Christians when it's perceived as political gain. Sad, but true. When it comes a religious context, most don't consider them real Christians.   

 I've read comments by some on various sites - and the narrow mindedness, and especially the sanctimoniousness towards anyone not in their "group think" really got to me.  

 

[HS Mom in NC]

10 minutes ago, happi duck said:

I don't know how to define "evangelicalism".  It is not the same a evangelism.

Yep.  It's tricky because like Christianity, there's no 1 universally accepted definition.  As a pastor of mine says, "I evangelize, but I'm not an Evangelical.  I believe in certain fundamentals of the faith, but I'm not a Fundamentalist."  Those are even harder to define because of associations people make with the words too. Some of us, including me,  are seriously considering leaving not over theological/doctrinal issues, but cultural ones if there isn't going to be a reformation in Evangelicalism soon.

There are rumblings in some small circles about dropping the term Christian all together because of the negative associations with the word so many people have. I'm not on board with that yet.

[gardenmom5]

20 minutes ago, kand said:

And to muddy it further, not all evangelical Christian churches are in line with the dominant political and social beliefs currently associated with evangelical Christians. It’s unfortunate that all that politicizing has made “evangelical” into a bad word for most of those outside the evangelical church. It’s basically causing the opposite effect of what the word means 😢. 

That said, you would be welcome at the co-op I attend, but that’s because we are open to everyone, no matter their faith.

That's been a problem for many decades - it's not recent.  (I encountered it personally in the 1970s)  And it's not about politics - but about a subset of evangelicals who think only those that think like they do are Christian  - and if you have a different idea of what it means to be a practicing Christian, they will attack you and tear you down.

eta: I don't know exactly what my grandmother experienced - but she stopped attending church after she moved out here in the 1940s because "they were snobby".

Edited October 13, 2020 by gardenmom5

[Junie]

I was just talking to my girls at lunch about the Supreme Court nomination process and about Amy Coney Barrett.

I made some comment about ACB (I wish I could remember what exactly) and one of my older girls gave me a puzzled look.  We are Baptist and she knows that ACB is Catholic and she wondered about my comment about her.

I told my kids that the issue here was not one of doctrine.   And that morally, Catholics and Baptists are not very different.  (In fact, because I do not use birth control, I relate to Catholics on that issue more so than with most Baptists.)

Would I want ACB teaching my kids' Sunday School class or Bible class?  No.  Would I let my kids take her law classes (if they so desired)? Absolutely.

 

As for your question about co-ops?  That's tricky.  I was raised multi-denominational (my family hopped churches every few years) and it was confusing.  There were quite a few doctrinal issues that I had to get sorted out as an adult.  I do not want my kids (or even other people's kids) growing up with the same confusion.  For instance, some neighbors that we used to have were Presbyterian and held very different views on baptism than we do.  I very purposefully did not invite the neighbor kids to church for any events because I did not want to undermine what their parents and their church were teaching them (even though I think that my view on baptism are right and theirs are wrong 😉 ).  I thought that it might do more harm than good.   I can see similar problems might happen at an open co-op. 

Personally, I think that the best co-op situation would be that all of teachers be required to meet any existing doctrinal standard, but not necessarily the students.  And that the parents would be aware that the classes would be/could be taught from that particular point of view.  It might not matter for something like gymnastics or whatever, but would absolutely matter for science, literature, or history -- particularly in the high school years.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Junie

[Momto6inIN]

I used to be Catholic and although I am now in a different denomination I still have a lot of love and respect for the Catholic church.

All kinds of Christians with theology I don't necessarily agree with interact with my kids, including family members from at least 5 different denominations and drama directors and speech/debate coaches and friends in those activities.

I wouldn't like it if one of the various people we know tried to teach my kids theology, but being friends or teaching something other than religion wouldn't be a problem. I might have some reservations about dating because I know from DH and my personal experience that marrying someone of a different faith tradition (even if both are Christian) can cause a lot of problems. Although ours worked out in the end, I would be a little apprehensive about my kids following the same path. But I wouldn't forbid it or anything. How can you even do that with a teen anyway???

Both groups where I've seen a Statement of Faith, it was not a "I agree that I believe xyz" kind of thing but rather a "I agree not to teach anything contradictory to xyz". But even when I was a Catholic, I wouldn't have had any problem signing it. It was all very generalized Christian stuff.

I'm sorry you've had negative experiences ☹

.

[gardenmom5]

44 minutes ago, kand said:

No doubt that’s an issue, but a different one than what I was referencing in the bolded. I was referring to particularly those who are not Christian being viscerally repelled from Christianity due to behaviors and beliefs that have become associated with the word “evangelical.” This is definitely a major issue right now, and something the church will need to grapple with if they don’t want to be gone in another generation or two. 

It's not just non-Christians who are repelled.  there are plenty of people raised in a certain type of  evangelical (or other denomination) home that are repelled.  The more I came to understand my grandmother's version of Christianity- the more I understood why my mother was agnostic.  

Tbh: - I've found it remarkable how with my grandmother's influence regarding religion, I am religious.  It could have easily gone the other way.  She used it as a manipulative tool, and was very coercive.  I used to quip she worshipped a god of death, hell, fire, and brimstone.  That's all I ever heard from her. There was a part of me that firmly rejected that while I was growing up, and kept me grounded.

[Loowit]

I do not belong to, nor have I ever belonged to a denomination.  I used to consider myself evangelical and/or fundamentalist, now I just consider myself a Christian.  I do not agree with the theology of any one group be it Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, or otherwise, however, I would say I am Protestant.

The one co-op I was a part of for a few years would have let you in as a member, but you had to agree with their statement of faith to be a teacher.  I think it was an unfortunate choice, unless the class was there to teach theology in some way.  But there were a number of moms there that I wouldn't want teaching my children theology that were protestant also.

I would be friends, and in fact am friends, with Catholics.  I do not agree with them on several theological points, however, I do think that on the whole we agree more than disagree.

I have no problem supporting justices that I feel will rule in a way that is unbiased, and constitutionally minded.  It would not matter if they are Catholic, Muslim, LDS, or whatever.  It is not a position that should be religious.

[teachermom2834]

Just since I posted this question there is a new thread amongst my FB “friends”. The gist of it is that she is brilliant and faithful and that we need a Godly woman like that on the SCOTUS.  I am resisting the urge to point out that she could not teach a kindergarten math class at the homeschool co-op. 
 

But it’s okay- their club, their rules. Really. It’s just the disconnect that intrigues me. 
 

Another issue is that I have witnessed those that sign the statement and know all the right things to say to pass the faith tests - sometimes they teach things or say things that don’t jive with the SOF any better than anything I would might accidentally say. A lot of Christians that pass the test have a wide variety of beliefs or don’t even know what their church actually teaches.

I am past the point of wanting to participate and I’m old enough to be solid in who I am so I’m not losing sleep over any of it. Everyone has to do what they think is right for their families and I totally respect that. But, some of these groups that are begging for helpers are leaving some good talent on the bench! 
 

 

[teachermom2834]

Just now, Patty Joanna said:

Half the time, I couldn't figure out what they were trying to say in the home-made SOF.  Even when I was Protestant and DID know what my denomination taught, I couldn't tell what our co-op's SOF was getting at.  I wondered why they didn't just use The Apostle's Creed or The Nicene Creed, both of which have stood the test of time.  

I have offered the Apostle’s Creed as my SOF a few times. Often that is good enough but sometimes not. When it isn’t I know it is a bad fit for me anyway. 

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Would Amy Coney Barrett be welcome in your homeschool group? Could she teach at your co-op? Be on the board? Would you allow your kids to be friends with her kids? Allow your teenagers to date her teenagers? 

Yes, she would be welcome and appreciated. We have had Catholics as well as non-religious people join our mostly Evangelical co-op. 

Yes, she could teach, as long as she didn't teach anything contrary to our statement of faith.

She might be able to be on the board. We don't have to agree with the statement of faith to join or teach; we do have to agree with it to be on the board. Although I've been asked to be on the board several times, I always have to say, "Sorry, I'm not allowed!" because I'm an old earth creationist and young earth creationism is on the statement of faith. (To quote Pretty Woman, "Big mistake! Big! Huge!") 🙂 

Yes, of course her friends could be friends with my kids.

I personally would allow my daughter to date a Catholic. I can't speak for my husband and don't know how he would answer that question. There are things I love about the Catholic Church and some areas of serious disagreement.

I understand your interest in the disconnect!

Edited October 13, 2020 by MercyA

[bolt.]

[quote]Would Amy Coney Barrett be welcome in your homeschool group? Could she teach at your co-op? Be on the board? Would you allow your kids to be friends with her kids? Allow your teenagers to date her teenagers?[/quote]

I'm not in a co-op, however...

In my area, a Catholic homeschooler would certainly be welcome to fully participate in most (if not quite all) homeschool groups. Many of these groups are vaguely faith based (and would be happy to have believers of any stripe) but also many of them are completely open to all homeschoolers with or without religious beliefs. Very few are narrowly 'evangelical' protestant in the way you describe.

I would certainly allow/encourage friendships and/or dating with a happy healthy Catholic family.

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, Patty Joanna said:

I haven't read the thread.  Just commenting here.  Most people know I am Eastern Orthodox.  

My son was in a small private Christian school for awhile.  One of the the teachers left an evangelical church and entered the Orthodox Church.  He was fired and his family shunned and yes I mean shunned.  

Two years later, my son was in a different Christian school.  One of the teachers left a charismatic church and entered the Orthodox Church. He kept his job, and was actually promoted according to his accomplishment as a teacher.  A could of years later, at a meeting of the curriculum/staffing committee, he asked if he would have been hired had he been Orthodox from the beginning.  He let the committee mull that question in his absence.  When he came back into the room, the committee said this:  "No we would not have hired you.  And that would have been a mistake."  

 

That is a wonderful story at about eight different levels.

[frogger]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Yep.  It's tricky because like Christianity, there's no 1 universally accepted definition.  As a pastor of mine says, "I evangelize, but I'm not an Evangelical.  I believe in certain fundamentals of the faith, but I'm not a Fundamentalist."  Those are even harder to define because of associations people make with the words too. Some of us, including me,  are seriously considering leaving not over theological/doctrinal issues, but cultural ones if there isn't going to be a reformation in Evangelicalism soon.

There are rumblings in some small circles about dropping the term Christian all together because of the negative associations with the word so many people have. I'm not on board with that yet.

I have struggled with that too.

 

Many who call themselves "Christian" don't appear to follow the same Jesus I do but then again, those I struggle with most are extended family that never attend church or read the Bible. They think Christianity go with apple pie and American traditions. Their religion is an aside to their politics not something they religiously believe. It's so confusing because I read the Bible all the time and I agree with them on so little. Much of what they say, "God helps those who help themselves." isn't in the Bible at all and yet these are the people associated with Christianity more so than my own beliefs despite the fact they don't appear to believe at all.  I know there are mega churches who reel people in because they tickle their ears with popular political rhetoric and I don't want to be associated with them at all. 

It's beyond frustrating. 

[frogger]

To the OP.

Catholics were allowed to teach where I did a short stint at co-ops and that was held in a Grace Brethren church but we weren't teaching theology. It was more math club, geography, etc. 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Patty Joanna said:

Half the time, I couldn't figure out what they were trying to say in the home-made SOF.  Even when I was Protestant and DID know what my denomination taught, I couldn't tell what our co-op's SOF was getting at.  I wondered why they didn't just use The Apostle's Creed or The Nicene Creed, both of which have stood the test of time.  

That is what the Baptist Church co-op did.  I believe it was the Apostle's Creed.  And yes,  since it was a Baptist Church,  we weren't supposed to teach anything against them but there were a number of Catholics in the group, Orthodox, we were (and are) Presbyterian, etc.  My one dd told me that one of the families was even Jewish.    Now, would superstrict Catholics maybe not like the co-op?  I guess because the pastor of the church did do a mini lesson on The Lords Prayer during assembly time and although I heard nothing objectionable to Catholics, I am guessing some may not have liked a Baptist preacher doing that.  He thought the one class involving religion and I gather almost all the kids who went to that class were actually Baptist.  

The next group I joined when we moved, was even freer since I know a UU family was in the co-op.  That one was in a Methodist church but in the South.  ANyway,,.  Catholics were allowed.

 

[J-rap]

I don't know if I'm an evangelical or not.  😄  That word has so many different meanings now.  I grew up in the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church.  Now it's considered fairly liberal!  So I think the definition of "evangelical" has changed a lot, unfortunately.  Now it has become narrower.  I attend a church that I believe still calls itself evangelical, although I think most evangelicals I know wouldn't call it evangelical according to their definition.

And about our old co-op (we're empty-nesters now):  even though our co-op was small-town conservative (it was the only homeschool group in town), I do think it would have happily accepted a devout Catholic.  

I'd certainly let my kids date a Catholic.  I married a Catholic.  🙂  We used to go to each other's church every other week (early in our marriage), although at some point, we both left those churches and began attending a different one.  Our viewpoints merged and we've grown together in our faith, unified.  🙂  

As with any denomination, nothing is perfect.  I've learned a lot through my dh about the Catholic faith.  There are so many things I love about it.  

Our dd is dating a young man from a Catholic family and they'll most likely get married.

That's fine with us.  I don't believe denomination matters in the end...  As long as Jesus's divinity and message of loving one another is the main message, I'm good.

ETA:  Actually, although our co op group was a Christian group, it didn't have or require a statement of faith.  We had a couple secular homeschool families in that co op too.

Edited October 14, 2020 by J-rap

[Frances]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Just since I posted this question there is a new thread amongst my FB “friends”. The gist of it is that she is brilliant and faithful and that we need a Godly woman like that on the SCOTUS.  I am resisting the urge to point out that she could not teach a kindergarten math class at the homeschool co-op. 
 

But it’s okay- their club, their rules. Really. It’s just the disconnect that intrigues me. 
 

Another issue is that I have witnessed those that sign the statement and know all the right things to say to pass the faith tests - sometimes they teach things or say things that don’t jive with the SOF any better than anything I would might accidentally say. A lot of Christians that pass the test have a wide variety of beliefs or don’t even know what their church actually teaches.

I am past the point of wanting to participate and I’m old enough to be solid in who I am so I’m not losing sleep over any of it. Everyone has to do what they think is right for their families and I totally respect that. But, some of these groups that are begging for helpers are leaving some good talent on the bench! 
 

 

I’m curious if they would consider the other Catholic woman on the Supreme Court, Sonia Sotomayor, a faithful and Godly woman? Or would they only apply that description to conservative Catholics? Everyone on the Supreme Court is considered brilliant, I would assume.

[wonderchica]

I’ve noticed this phenomenon myself. Several evangelical women I know, who every other day of the week would say Catholics are not “real Christians”, are posting about what a godly Christian woman ACB is. One is even insisting she is actually Pentecostal. I suspect that would be news to ACB! It’s just putting their (misguided, I think) beliefs to the side to support their political leanings. Nothing new under the sun.

[teachermom2834]

4 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m curious if they would consider the other Catholic woman on the Supreme Court, Sonia Sotomayor, a faithful and Godly woman? Or would they only apply that description to conservative Catholics? Everyone on the Supreme Court is considered brilliant, I would assume.

Of course they would not. But, I am a conservative Catholic and I assure you they don’t ascribe the glowing attributes to me that they do ACB! Lol. It’s funny to even think about. 

[rebcoola]

We have never done a Christian co-op.  We do have a Catholic family who through a series events is in our missional community.

[Ausmumof3]

I’ve never been part of a coop.  We did have an informal group that would do field trips etc but it was more on the level of a few people sending a message to a few other people saying “is anyone interested in going to xyz” and getting it organised.  They were people from our faith group and they would probably not have welcomed people in from another faith.  They would have been polite.  But we’re not from a mainstream Christian faith.  
 

the other group we are loosely part of is just a few Facebook pages that  organise outings.  We haven’t done a lot with them this year due to avoiding situations for the pandemic.  They probably wouldn’t welcome ACB because they are mostly secular and wouldn’t approve of her views on abortion etc.  Again that’s not quite true.  It’s a pretty mixed bag and as long as she was happy to come along and join in without pushing conservative views she’d be fine.  I’m on the conservative side with respect to those things but I don’t really need to talk about it to enjoy going on an education field trip with other homeschoolers.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Frances]

1 hour ago, wonderchica said:

I’ve noticed this phenomenon myself. Several evangelical women I know, who every other day of the week would say Catholics are not “real Christians”, are posting about what a godly Christian woman ACB is. One is even insisting she is actually Pentecostal. I suspect that would be news to ACB! It’s just putting their (misguided, I think) beliefs to the side to support their political leanings. Nothing new under the sun.

Maybe she’s confused because the Catholic People of Praise group Barrett grew up in believes in speaking in tongues and other Pentecostal practices?

[Carol in Cal.]

In the Christian homeschooling group I was in for several years, it would have been fine.

Super liberal Christians would probably not have been comfortable and maybe not welcome ( not sure but am positive they would have self-excluded ), but that was really the only divide.  

Until a new leader blew the whole thing up by kicking out all non-private homeschoolers.

[Wheres Toto]

Most of the coops around here that label themselves "Christian" have Statements of Faith that exclude Catholics, Methodists, anyone who isn't young-earth, etc.  But the way they are worded, a quick reading makes people feel welcome.  I only understand what is really meant by reading about SOF on here.   I don't know why they don't just spell it out in clear English.  I know at least one Catholic who joined thinking she'd be welcome and then was excluded.  

[wonderchica]

9 hours ago, Frances said:

Maybe she’s confused because the Catholic People of Praise group Barrett grew up in believes in speaking in tongues and other Pentecostal practices?

I don’t know, she says everyone else is confused for thinking Barrett is Catholic! I think she just wants her to not be Catholic.

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, wonderchica said:

I don’t know, she says everyone else is confused for thinking Barrett is Catholic! I think she just wants her to not be Catholic.

A dear old lady friend of mine who is Baptist but very loving and accepting of me said about ACB “she is Catholic but if you read about her not really.”

She meant it as a compliment 😂 

See, I really am not thin skinned on the issue. I have some really close evangelical friends. In fact, a good friend of mine actually started a co-op that I couldn’t join. (I could have joined if I just signed her statement, so it wasn’t personal, she would have happily let me join if I would just sign her paper). 
 

My mom was Baptist and my dad was Catholic...so I really see more common ground than most folks I guess. 
 

I actually think anyone that knows me well would be happy for me just to sign their paper and join their co-op because I am nice and hard working and share their conservative values. But they think I am the exception. One of the good Catholics like ACB. But they need to keep their rules to keep the bad ones out. 
 

Anyway- it is just really interesting to watch the commentary and I wonder how it is all reconciled. 

[sassenach]

I’ve heard of hs groups like that (on here) but have never experienced one irl. You would definitely be welcome to the local Christian hs group (which already has Catholic participants). 

[TravelingChris]

38 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

A dear old lady friend of mine who is Baptist but very loving and accepting of me said about ACB “she is Catholic but if you read about her not really.”

She meant it as a compliment 😂 

See, I really am not thin skinned on the issue. I have some really close evangelical friends. In fact, a good friend of mine actually started a co-op that I couldn’t join. (I could have joined if I just signed her statement, so it wasn’t personal, she would have happily let me join if I would just sign her paper). 
 

My mom was Baptist and my dad was Catholic...so I really see more common ground than most folks I guess. 
 

I actually think anyone that knows me well would be happy for me just to sign their paper and join their co-op because I am nice and hard working and share their conservative values. But they think I am the exception. One of the good Catholics like ACB. But they need to keep their rules to keep the bad ones out. 
 

Anyway- it is just really interesting to watch the commentary and I wonder how it is all reconciled. 

I had heard a lot about anti- Catholicism but hadn't really heard of anti-Protestantism until my dd3 described what happened at her college.  She was giving a ride to a few people (she had a car even as a freshman because she had medical reasons for it) and these two Catholic girls laid into her after she asked about their student group (she had heard good things about it from some Catholic friends and though she wasn't a Catholic, she wasn't anti-Catholic either).  All about how she isn't a Christian,etc.   In fact, I believe that at least one of her Catholic friends stopped going to the group because these super strict Catholics got in charge.

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I had heard a lot about anti- Catholicism but hadn't really heard of anti-Protestantism until my dd3 described what happened at her college.  She was giving a ride to a few people (she had a car even as a freshman because she had medical reasons for it) and these two Catholic girls laid into her after she asked about their student group (she had heard good things about it from some Catholic friends and though she wasn't a Catholic, she wasn't anti-Catholic either).  All about how she isn't a Christian,etc.   In fact, I believe that at least one of her Catholic friends stopped going to the group because these super strict Catholics got in charge.

I have never heard even super hard core Catholics say non-Catholics aren’t Christian. Now, they absolutely would say the non-Catholic definitely had their facts wrong but not that they fell outside Christianity. I absolutely believe you that this happened. Just saying I have never heard it. I was a homeschool mom before I realized that Catholics aren’t Christians to some people. It never occurred to me.

Generally the biggest target of scorn from the super judgy Catholics is the other Catholics that aren’t good enough for them 🙁 They don’t normally hold non-Catholic Christians to Catholic standards the way they do other Catholics.

[TravelingChris]

36 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I have never heard even super hard core Catholics say non-Catholics aren’t Christian. Now, they absolutely would say the non-Catholic definitely had their facts wrong but not that they fell outside Christianity. I absolutely believe you that this happened. Just saying I have never heard it. I was a homeschool mom before I realized that Catholics aren’t Christians to some people. It never occurred to me.

Generally the biggest target of scorn from the super judgy Catholics is the other Catholics that aren’t good enough for them 🙁 They don’t normally hold non-Catholic Christians to Catholic standards the way they do other Catholics.

Yeah, probably why the some of the Catholics stopped going to the student group.  I was a Catholic growing up as was dh (we changed early after our marriage).  And I had never heard anything like that either.  I had come across anti Catholic bigotry as a young teen-- a Southern Baptist telling me I wasn't a Christian.--but then I have now come across a few more Southern Baptists who seem to think that Presbyterians aren't Christians either. (By far, most SB are not like this at all).

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We've joined the local Catholic co-op although none of the classes or groups are meeting yet. 

I have to ask the reverse question. I keep getting all kinds of political emails from this co-op message board but the candidate they support would not be allowed to join the co-op. His wife might be allowed because she's Catholic but I believe their marriage is irregular which might prevent her from being able to join. 

But I keep getting emails saying that it's a mortal sin to not vote for this guy. 

I do not think you are going to enjoy this co-op!