Michigan plot

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

First of all, I think it's important to acknowledge that not everyone in this country has had the privilege "live and let live." There have always been people who were subject to harassment and even violence because of who they were or where they lived. "Live and let live" is a privilege. That's why I'm not troubled by "incivility" in politics. We are discussing matters of life and death so they should be taken seriously and ideas that are taken seriously will not always be debated in a civil way. "Civility" usually assumes that it really does not matter all that much. 

I don't think there's much to gain from calling out your friend but I think it's reasonable to acknowledge, at least among reasonable people, that what she writes is stupid. 

Thank you for this reminder. I see it more easily in some contexts than others, and I appreciate you spelling it out that way. 

[HeartString]

7 hours ago, Terabith said:

I am praying like crazy that I'm wrong.  But this is the article that made me start withdrawing cash and buying plywood to board up our windows. https://medium.com/@mikeselinker/a-wargame-designer-describes-our-four-possible-civil-wars-cf5b2e980099

Can you extend on how you’re prepping a little bit?  I’m still wrapping my head around how to prep for COVID over the winter.  How does one prepare for a civil freaking war?  I don’t even know how to board up window.  How would I know it was time to do that? 

[mom2scouts]

I still just don't get these groups. Do they just hate everyone? They want to kidnap the Democratic governor and other government officials. They hate Republican politicians including President Trump and call him an "enemy" and "tyrant". They hate the police and want to harm them. They don't seem to be on any side except the side of anarchy. I can understand people from both sides of the aisle who passionately disagree about things, but I can't wrap my head around hating everyone and wanting to do away with any sort of government or law enforcement.

Edited October 11, 2020 by mom2scouts
remove repeated words

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I still just don't get these groups. Do they just hate everyone? They want to kidnap the Democratic governor and other government officials. They hate Republican politicians including President Trump and call him an "enemy" and "tyrant". They hate the police and want to harm them. They don't seem to be on any side except the side of anarchy. I can understand people from both sides of the aisle who passionately disagree about things about things, but I can't wrap my head around hating everyone and wanting to do away with any sort of government or law enforcement.

They are absolutely on one side, the side of strongman, authoritarian leaders. They are not anarchists. They hate women and gays, and ethnic and religious minorities to a large extent. They explicitly support POTUS and are rallying to his side according to national intelligence agencies. They will attack/kill LEOs to advance their larger goals of starting a civil war. They have, as the indictment and media reports indicate, positive ties to LEOs. The only reason the informant came forward is that killing LEOs was, for him, a bridge too far.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

To clear up any confusion about the threats we face, this is a screenshot from the DHS national threat assessment released this week and linked upthread.  WSE=white supremacy extremists 
 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[kbutton]

22 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

They are absolutely on one side, the side of strongman, authoritarian leaders. They are not anarchists. They hate women and gays, and ethnic and religious minorities to a large extent. They explicitly support POTUS and are rallying to his side according to national intelligence agencies. They will attack/kill LEOs to advance their larger goals of starting a civil war. They have, as the indictment and media reports indicate, positive ties to LEOs. The only reason the informant came forward is that killing LEOs was, for him, a bridge too far.

I thought this group specifically said they were against Trump--I just read that this evening. Are you answering about these groups in general or about this group? 

It could be there are other conflicting stories that I don't know about.

 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I thought this group specifically said they were against Trump--I just read that this evening. Are you answering about these groups in general or about this group? 

It could be there are other conflicting stories that I don't know about.

 

I’m referring to these right wing groups in general but also to this specific group that had ties to the boogaloo movement and responded to POTUS’S calls to ‘take back their government’ by showing up to the state Capitol with guns.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-54470427

Edited October 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[katilac]

 

29 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I still just don't get these groups. Do they just hate everyone? They want to kidnap the Democratic governor and other government officials. They hate Republican politicians including President Trump and call him an "enemy" and "tyrant". They hate the police and want to harm them. They don't seem to be on any side except the side of anarchy. I can understand people from both sides of the aisle who passionately disagree about things about things, but I can't wrap my head around hating everyone and wanting to do away with any sort of government or law enforcement.

Some men just want to watch the world burn. 

I got this bit of wisdom from Batman's butler, but it's true nonetheless. 

[kbutton]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m referring to these right wing groups in general but also to this specific group that had ties to the boogaloo movement and responsed to POTUS’S calls to ‘take back their government’ by showing up to the stare Capitol with guns.

Thanks, that helped me search more specifically. Here is an article if others are seeing the article about one being anti-Trump: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whitmer-conspiracy-allegations-tied-boogaloo-movement-n1242670 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Thanks, that helped me search more specifically. Here is an article if others are seeing the article about one being anti-Trump: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/whitmer-conspiracy-allegations-tied-boogaloo-movement-n1242670 

The first paragraph literally says they had an “interest in countering what they saw as an "uprising" against President Donald Trump, according to their online profiles and comments.”

Edited October 10, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

I thought this group specifically said they were against Trump--I just read that this evening. Are you answering about these groups in general or about this group? 

It could be there are other conflicting stories that I don't know about.

 

They are a mixed bag — one member of the group, Casserta, called Trump a tyrant and said "Trump is not your friend, dude," while others, like Croft and Musico, praised and defended Trump. Casserta is involved in the Boogaloo movement, which tends to be antigovernment, while Croft identifies with Q-Anon, which regards Trump as a savior. 

Both groups that were arrested (the potential kidnappers and the ones planning to attack the capitol) appear to be offshoots of the Michigan Liberty Militia, which led several armed protests at the state capitol over the summer, which was heavily pro-Trump. (Two of the men who were planning the attack on the capitol, the Null brothers, were photographed carrying long guns inside the Senate gallery during the April 30th protest.)

Some of the other RW extremist groups, like the Proud Boys, are outspoken supporters of Trump. In fact, within hours of Trump telling them to "Stand back and stand by" they were selling tee shirts with those words over their logo. ETA: "To say Proud Boys are energized by this is an understatement," Squire said. "They were pro-Trump before this shoutout, and they are absolutely over the moon now. Their fantasy is to fight antifa in his defense, and he apparently just asked them to do just that."

Edited October 10, 2020 by Corraleno

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, Cnew02 said:

Can you extend on how you’re prepping a little bit?  I’m still wrapping my head around how to prep for COVID over the winter.  How does one prepare for a civil freaking war?  I don’t even know how to board up window.  How would I know it was time to do that? 

Probably not well.  Stocking up on groceries, so we don't have to leave the house for a few weeks.  Keeping the car filled up with gas, prescriptions filled, withdrawing cash, making sure I know where all our important documents are, procuring plywood.  

Making a plan for where to protest.  

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The first paragraph literally says they had an “interest in countering what they saw as an "uprising" against President Donald Trump, according to their online profiles and comments.”

Yes, but that is not what I saw earlier tonight. Someone else had posted a mainstream article on FB that showed how one of the conspirators was anti-Trump. I didn't initially see articles with the other connections fleshed out. 

I thought someone else might be in the same boat, and I thought I'd spare them some googling.

[Terabith]

19 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Probably not well.  Stocking up on groceries, so we don't have to leave the house for a few weeks.  Keeping the car filled up with gas, prescriptions filled, making sure we have a little cash on hand, making sure I know where all our important documents are, procuring plywood.  

Making a plan for where to protest.  

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

I still just don't get these groups. Do they just hate everyone? They want to kidnap the Democratic governor and other government officials. They hate Republican politicians including President Trump and call him an "enemy" and "tyrant". They hate the police and want to harm them. They don't seem to be on any side except the side of anarchy. I can understand people from both sides of the aisle who passionately disagree about things about things, but I can't wrap my head around hating everyone and wanting to do away with any sort of government or law enforcement.

I definitely don’t think they all hate LEO, some have LEO on their side. 
 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Frances

[Frances]

https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/michigan/man-charged-in-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-shared-stage-with-west-michigan-sheriff-at-rally
 

Sorry, this is the correct link.

[Laurie]

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I corrected it to Minnesota before you quoted. Sorry. I have family in Wisconsin and I smoosh these two states together in my brain. The question remains tho, are there specific threats by ‘antifas’ in Minnesota that the local authorities are unaware of? Are you personally aware of violence or civil unrest unrelated to extrajudicial killings?

I have no idea about what's going on in Minnesota or Michigan!   And where I live we've voted by mail for years so I haven't seen anything on the local news about any anticipated problems on election day.    

 

 

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/michigan/man-charged-in-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-shared-stage-with-west-michigan-sheriff-at-rally
 

Sorry, this is the correct link.

How awful for a sheriff to suggest that it might be ok if the citizens wanted to arrest the governor!   

 

 

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, Laurie said:

How awful for a sheriff to suggest that it might be ok if the citizens wanted to arrest the governor!   

 

 

And yet that's where we're at. The support for white supremacy terrorists among LEOs is the thing about this that worries me the most, I think. I'm positive that sheriff is far from alone. It's one reason we desperately need some police reform. 

[Guest]

I cancelled my piano lessons on election day because my center is a polling site (for that day only), and I just plain don't want my kids in the midst of what might be pretty volatile. I'm using COVID as an excuse, but voting is at the other end of the building with separate entrances, and they will have the windows open in that section (while my county has a mask ordinance, and as a city building, my center had a required masking policy even before the county ordinance, they cannot require it for voting), So the increased COVID risk on my side of the building is probably minimal. But I just plain don't trust adults to act like adults. The preschool director is also closing her programming for the day, as is dance-for the same reason. 

 

 

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

And yet that's where we're at. The support for white supremacy terrorists among LEOs is the thing about this that worries me the most, I think. I'm positive that sheriff is far from alone. It's one reason we desperately need some police reform. 

I hope those particular LEOs reflect on the fact that the people they support had no compunctions about killing LEOs. 

[Pen]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:00 AM, Terabith said:

I am praying like crazy that I'm wrong.  But this is the article that made me start withdrawing cash and buying plywood to board up our windows. https://medium.com/@mikeselinker/a-wargame-designer-describes-our-four-possible-civil-wars-cf5b2e980099

 

Some cash and plywood sound helpful if a hurricane (or weather along those lines) might be headed your way.

 

It took me awhile to get through the article.  

 

If I had the time, I might print it out and circle words likely to produce fear and panic plywood buying.  

 

 

I think the Media (including social media) is inflaming things.  

 

(ETA: Real Question: Do the majority of your neighbors seem inclined to go to war against each other? ) 

I think there are options other than those the writer of the article suggests.

 

For example, people could be chill with waiting on a slower time frame to get voting sorted out rather than the almost instant General Election TV results of modern times, and then whoever wins the electoral vote does, or if not clear we follow the Constitutional process for getting it sorted, and eventually it gets sorted out and we move on .  

 

(ETA: But “if it bleeds, it leads”—and non war options are probably boring to read about and won’t sell.  War games captures an audience. But “boring” and peaceful tends to make for more healthy lives.  IMO.) 

Have you ever read Scoop by Evelyn Waugh?

 

It is a satire about media starting war . In relatively peaceful times it reads as satirical comedy  — I am not sure that it would be funny right now.   But I recommend it to you. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Pen

[Terabith]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Some cash and plywood sound helpful if a hurricane (or weather along those lines) might be headed your way.

 

It took me awhile to get through the article.  

 

If I had the time, I might print it out and circle words likely to produce fear and panic plywood buying.  

 

 

I think the Media (including social media) is inflaming things.  

 

(ETA: Real Question: Do the majority of your neighbors seem inclined to go to war against each other? ) 

I think there are options other than those the writer of the article suggests.

 

For example, people could be chill with waiting on a slower time frame to get voting sorted out rather than the almost instant General Election TV results of modern times, and then whoever wins the electoral vote does, or if not clear we follow the Constitutional process for getting it sorted, and eventually it gets sorted out and we move on .  

 

(ETA: But “if it bleeds, it leads”—and non war options are probably boring to read about and won’t sell.  War games captures an audience. But “boring” and peaceful tends to make for more healthy lives.  IMO.) 

Have you ever read Scoop by Evelyn Waugh?

 

It is a satire about media starting war . In relatively peaceful times it reads as satirical comedy  — I am not sure that it would be funny right now.   But I recommend it to you. 

 

 

My neighbors don't seem particularly inclined to go to war.  Even my city is pretty laconic.  But, areas just outside my city definitely are inclined to do so.  

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My neighbors don't seem particularly inclined to go to war.  Even my city is pretty laconic.  But, areas just outside my city definitely are inclined to do so.  

 

I am in an edgy sort of area, but I think people who want peacefulness far outnumber those who want war.  

A problem can be that some situations and behaviors tend to pull in more and more people who might have been just wanting to peacefully protest something, but then a crowd momentum (probably with deliberate fomentation as a driver) pushes things into a mob and violence. 

 

It does not take a lot of people to cause destruction—but that is not the same as civil war.  

 

 

[popmom]

I think this is one of the most helpful articles I've read on this terrorist group and other groups like them. It is written by Fred Kaplan for Slate. ETA: It's about Wolverine Watchmen--the group that plotted to kidnap the governor. 

"The Face of American Insurgency"

Edited October 11, 2020 by popmom
typo