Is this a suck it up scenario or

[BlsdMama]

Is there more I can do?   (Will delete later because lots of info here - Please don't quote.)
This kiddo - I love him, but he drives me nuts.  Psych eval - normal intelligence, significant working memory issues that seem to be getting better, severe to profound dyslexia.  He is 15  / 10th grade, homeschooled.

We outsourced Lit (reading via Audible, doing Iliad currently) and ASL (most teaching is in person or via video.) He has a science class online that is pretty easy and I generally sit with him.  Math is Saxon - we're getting through 7/6.  It's a brawl but we're almost to the end of it.  Solid grasp of fractions - multiplying, dividing them, etc.  Solid skills as far as the four functions.  Strong ability for decimals.  Story problems NEVER fail to mess him up - dyslexia showing as Saxon often has three or four steps to solve story problems and he skim reads.  He'll generally miss a dozen of 30 problems in the first pass.  He'll get about half, sometimes more, right on a second pass, then I work him through the rest.  Grammar is Fix It - doing GREAT with this - understands and can label nouns, pronouns, article, clause starters, conjunctions... Mixes up adverbs and adjectives sometimes.  In ACTUAL writing, it doesn't transfer.  Fails to capitalize, add commas, add periods, etc., but getting better.  We're using IEW and he is getting  this for sure.  It's working - writing a paper every single week.  I correct, he makes his edits.  

The problem? He DESPISES it - all of it.  Yesterday I went to take a shower.  He slipped out, finished mowing the lawn, broke the mower, and proceeded to start taking it apart.  Then the HOLY COW began of,  "I can't stop this.  It needs to be fixed."

On the one hand? The kid really CAN take apart my lawn mower, find the problem, tell me what part to order, put it back on, and repair it!!!!!  I find this AMAZING.  I can't even fix my own vacuum.  (He does this too, lol.)  On the other hand? He can't get into the community college program without the basics.

He is allowed to start the Diesel Ag Mechanic and Welding programs next year at 16.  At that point? I could care less if he does school for me AT ALL.  But, for this year, he MUST become proficient enough to hit those reading/math scores he needs to start the program at 16.  

He "gets" it, but doesn't apply the knowledge.  In other words, YES, he knows he needs to do these things to get what he wants, but he doesn't apply that knowledge to doing them without a fight.

So we fight EVERY single day.
Gets up.  I remind him 1, 2, 3 times to take meds.
Goes for a run which I insist on.
Let the meds kick in fully.
Start school.

If I step away or get distracted (i.e., I work with another kid) he can wander... outside, remember he needs to fix something, takes out the garbage...)
This year we decided to do something novel - deadlines.  He owes me a two paragraph IEW paper every Wednesday.  This is something he can totally do.  Has the checklist, it's every week, I do the teaching on Monday & Tuesday, then all he has to do is go do it for Wednesday AM.  It's week 6.  I have not once just been handed a paper.  Nope.  Wednesday morning? No paper.  Thus ensues the argument and the doing of the paper.

Last week he listened to what he needed to for Lit.  Did he pay attention to what he covered? Nope.  On Audio it is a challenge to know if you listened to too much or not enough.  So I reread it ALL to him on Friday morning before class.  SMH.  

It's only one more year, right?

Here's the catch.  I'm dying of ALS.  There it is.  BAM.  And at some point, unless God intervenes,  I *WILL* lose my voice.  When that happens, all my younger kids (5th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st) will go to school.  It could be six months.  It could be four years.  But these kids really can't sit by while I spend 3+ hours holding JUST his hand.  If he was my only? Absolutely.  

I desperately need some solutions and I don't see any.

What we've done: 
1. Choose the "do the next thing" curriculum.
2. Pick curriculum he really CAN do - like Rod & Staff English, but Level 5.
3. Saxon - utilize Nicole the Math Lady
4. Teaching Time as a group (my 9th & 7th graders do Fix It and my 9th, 7th, and 5th do IEW)
5. Make checklists that can be printed each Monday so he can clearly see what to do each day.
6. Make the days routine
7. Accountability

I'm thinking about letting him take the ALEKS, see his abysmal scores, and let that really hit home....  On the other hand, in my efforts to motivate him, that's a really painful way to learn.  I like him.  He's important to me.  I want to see him succeed and get to do what he wants to do.  He's perfect for Diesel Ag and he's really excited about it.  On the other hand - it has two math classes and some writing needs, so dude, this stuff is relevant.  I printed off the program, the list of classes, etc.  It seemed to make an impact, but this non stop arguing is killing me.  (Quite literally, ALS patients are to avoid stress.... so, it's really not a healthy deal.)

The solutions above have worked really well for my other kids.  I have three kids who ended up in college with their tuition covered by grants and scholarships. I have another who is likely to get significant merit aid this coming year. But none of them fought me on doing the work.  I am not a "here, go off and do this," mom, but I do need him to be able to work independently to SOME decent degree (with daily accountability) at 15.

[Lecka]

For math, I would look and see what the placement test is like and he might already pass it or he might be okay to just prep for it.

I have looked at the placement test for vocational school here, and your son would pass it.  
 

There are online practice tests for the placement test here.

In addition, I don’t know how to get into this, but there is a placement test prep class at the vocational school here.  
 

On the sample placement test I have looked at, it’s multiple choice and there aren’t distractor answers where if you stop at the wrong step in a multi-step answer it is a choice.  The choices were either the right answer or something way off.  
 

If you know there is a higher placement test or a higher certification test to pass down the line, that’s different.

 

But overall, I would contact the vocational school and talk to them about the levels needed.

 
 

[Lecka]

I would also ask at the vocational school what they do for students with writing needs.  
 

They might have IEP/504/ADA accommodations of some kind.

I think call and find out.

 

Also sometimes kids struggle through a certain class but they are able to pass and that’s good enough.  
 

He doesn’t have to do “A” level work to get through his program.  He needs to do “C” or “D” level work in his weakest classes.  
 

I think it would be better to call and talk to an admissions counselor about all of this.  

[73349]

He might like something that doesn't come directly from you and rewards him instantly for checking off completed tasks, like the free Habitica app.

[PeterPan]

If you *read aloud* the math word problems, does that make a difference? You're trying to nuance out whether this is a reading disability, a math disability, or a language disability. It sounds like a language disability to me, which means you need further language testing to tease that out. That's an SLP who specializes in language issues in teens, not a run of the mill SLP.

You have another spectrum dc, right? He sounds spectrumy. 

What happens if he *doesn't* enroll in the program you want him in? He doesn't sound on track for it. 

I would consider fresh evals to see what got missed and let them advice you on realistic career training plans. It sounds like he will be quite bright in the right field. I would consider enrolling him AFTER the evals, if the evals distinguish whether the need is further intervention or supports or what to allow you to make those things happen in his placement. If the interventions are better done at home, stay at home. 

[kbutton]

Agreeing on the placement tests and on talking to the vocational school. Ours is WONDERFUL for being vested in kids like this. They are the vocational school's bread and butter. Seriously. Become their new best friend, and get him an IEP--he definitely needs one and not a 504. 

Fresh evals--get him some language evals. I agree with this. I don't know if he sounds spectrum-y or not. He does sound very, very ADHD!!! If he needs language work, Mindwing Concepts is a great place to start. We found it life-changing for language issues.

[caedmyn]

I have not dealt with that specific situation and my oldest isn’t that old, but these are some things I do or am considering for my difficult kids with adhd and dyslexia so maybe something in here will give you some ideas. Is hiring a tutor for him, either online or in person, a possibility?   If he had a tutor even an hour a day, or 90 mins every other day, the tutor could be the one he’s accountable to instead of you.  Or could he be accountable to his dad instead of you, even if you are the one doing the actual grading and instruction (maybe save that part for the evening or even he weekend if dad’s home then)?
 

I’ve found an if-then approach to be useful in motivating my kids and reducing arguing.  Game time is what motivates mine, and I can control whether they have it.  So they have a list of things that need to be done, and they don’t get game time til it’s done.  If they want game time, or argue about their list, I say something like, “If you want game time, the list needs to be done.” Or, “After your list is done, then you can have game time.”  Repeat as necessary, and then I don’t engage in any other type of discussion about it.  This approach was suggested by a parenting coach who specializes in very difficult kids/teens (the type who often have ODD diagnoses, full time behaviorists in public schools, been kicked out of schools, etc) and it’s worked well for us.  The motivator has to be something that you can control and that they want.  You could set up a system with multiple if-thens—after math is done, he gets X.  After writing is turned in, he gets Y.  Etc.

[PeterPan]

On 10/8/2020 at 9:08 AM, BlsdMama said:

This year we decided to do something novel - deadlines.  He owes me a two paragraph IEW paper every Wednesday.  This is something he can totally do.  Has the checklist, it's every week, I do the teaching on Monday & Tuesday, then all he has to do is go do it for Wednesday AM.  It's week 6.  I have not once just been handed a paper.  Nope.  Wednesday morning? No paper.  Thus ensues the argument and the doing of the paper.

Last week he listened to what he needed to for Lit.  Did he pay attention to what he covered? Nope.  On Audio it is a challenge to know if you listened to too much or not enough.  So I reread it ALL to him on Friday morning before class.  SMH.  

It seems like you have some issues providing the amount of structure he needs. YOU did the work for him after he didn't? You didn't have to. You chose to. So where are the consequences? 

When my dd was that age/stage and I was working on deadlines I set up every deadline with a natural consequence. You should not be arguing. There should be a natural, obvious consequence, something he wanted to go do or have access to that can't happen because he'll be making up the task.

You also need to distinguish very carefully whether the task is in reach. That includes the EF supports and the ability to do the task independently. Has he done the task independently with you sitting beside him? I would be looking for some weaning like that. I would not expect a task to be done independently with a deadline (completely independently) when it has not been done with other stages of support.

It does not seem likely to me that a dc who has a language disability significant enough that he can't identify adverbs (which are really wicked hard with language disabilities, it's where we are now and one of our SLPs was commenting the same thing, that they're HARD for some kids) is going to crank out independent writing. So you're asking then whether the noncompliance is EF or a language disability. Back to fresh evals by an SLP to dig in and see what's going on.

Without understanding basics like adverbs, you don't have the functional understanding of language to understand clauses. So then you're saying he's shying away from reading audiobooks that use that complex syntax and avoiding a writing program that expects him to write using that syntax. So is that an EF problem (maybe) or a language disability? 

ODD behavior is linked to anxiety. That you can calm down with meds, mindfulness, etc. Sure you could have layers of stuff going on. 

On 10/8/2020 at 9:08 AM, BlsdMama said:

I'm thinking about letting him take the ALEKS, see his abysmal scores, and let that really hit home.... 

That's valid if it's totally willfulness or lack of effort. But if it's a language disability and he's already frustrated, it doesn't seem a very kind approach. All it does is reinforce what isn't working and his sense that it isn't working.

On 10/8/2020 at 9:08 AM, BlsdMama said:

The solutions above have worked really well for my other kids.  I have three kids who ended up in college with their tuition covered by grants and scholarships. I have another who is likely to get significant merit aid this coming year. But none of them fought me on doing the work. 

It's hard being in the shadows. My ds is like this, in the shadow of a sister with top scores and top scholarships. He's his own person and has to be reached where he is. This is your stage to determine whether this is EF+ immaturity or whether there's more going on that hasn't gotten diagnosed yet. Just me, but when it's this out of the norm, this significant, this frustrating, I'm just going to assume something got missed, that there's a reason he's not getting there. I'm going to assume he WOULD if he COULD and that something is glitching. And if providing EF supports isn't getting you there, then it's more than EF.

[Storygirl]

I'm sorry. I know what it's like, except my teen's special interest and talent is music, and my kid has additional layers of LDs and other issues in addition to the ADHD.

Arguing has been a major problem here ever since DS started talking. 16 years of it, and bad enough that he has an ODD diagnosis, as well, and doing schoolwork with him was extremely difficult due to opposition and resistance. Just this fall, the arguing is finally a lot better, and it's because he is taking an anti-anxiety med. I would not have thought that that would help, but adding the anxiety med on top of the ADHD meds has made an very significant difference. You might consult with the doctor to see if there is anything else that can be done to help, medically.

Two other things that we have added this year -- A checklist for his responsibilities, so that it's written down, instead of instructions coming from me orally. We do have to oversee to make sure the checklist happens, but so much less arguing is happening now that I can say, "check your checklist" instead of giving him directions that he finds annoying.

And a reward chart. DS gets to cross off a square on a reward chart each day when he completes his homework (he is in public school now). I think we have 15-20 squares on there right now, and each time he crosses all of them off, he gets a reward. He has a say in what the reward is, and it's been various things. This last time, he wanted a certain pair of jeans. Reward charts might seem juvenile for a 16 year old, but it is working much better than I imagined it would. My son does not have internal motivation, so we had to come up with an external motivation for him to apply himself to his homework.

I would never have believed this would happen, but during the past couple of weeks, DS has been presenting himself to me immediately after school and asking to do his homework (I help him study science daily, even if he doesn't have assignments). He wants to get it over with; he is not really desiring to do it. But I am no longer having to drag him kicking and screaming (the kicking and screaming really happened daily, but I didn't literally drag him LOL) through homework time.

You are giving him lots of support. You have a lot of kids to educate and a lot of other things on your plate!! Maybe he needs more external supports, like medication or rewards or a mentor.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Arguing has been a major problem here ever since DS started talking. 16 years of it, and bad enough that he has an ODD diagnosis, as well, and doing schoolwork with him was extremely difficult due to opposition and resistance. Just this fall, the arguing is finally a lot better, and it's because he is taking an anti-anxiety med. I would not have thought that that would help, but adding the anxiety med on top of the ADHD meds has made an very significant difference. You might consult with the doctor to see if there is anything else that can be done to help, medically.

This. It's very visible with ds how the anxiety meds bring him back to able to do things. And when you have anxiety on top of the EF issues, it just glitches implementation, holds them back, makes it so hard just to initiate and do the things they could do. 

30 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I would never have believed this would happen, but during the past couple of weeks, DS has been presenting himself to me immediately after school and asking to do his homework

This is awesome!

30 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

And a reward chart. DS gets to cross off a square on a reward chart each day when he completes his homework (he is in public school now). I think we have 15-20 squares on there right now, and each time he crosses all of them off, he gets a reward.

If it's developmentally appropriate and the data shows it works, then it works! That's awesome! 

I love hearing your progress!!

[katilac]

Hit pause and have him take a practice test. He may be closer than you think, he may not be, but either way he needs to know where he stands. If there is no practice test, I would have him take the regular test. Don't try to look at the tests and estimate how he would do, he needs to actually take the practice test. 

Do you have set times to work with him? Do you make him stay in the room and work while you work with another child? If he needs someone keeping him on course for three hours a day, then that's what he needs. You don't need to have the other kids just waiting. Give him the choice of wearing headphones, but keep him where you can see him. If he's distracted by other kids or noise, that's unfortunate, but there would be even more noise and distraction at a school, and he gets distracted anyway. 

On 10/8/2020 at 9:41 AM, Heigh Ho said:

 If he was in public school, the dyslexia would get him an aide/resource room help & the math problems would be read to him if they weren't available from the textbook publisher on audio.  

Not where I live. Not even close. I taught two outside classes in the local public schools last spring. One of them had 32 kids enrolled, with half or slightly more of them having a 504 or an IEP for dyslexia and other things. I had one aide in the classroom for the 15 or so students who needed more help than I could give them. 

On 10/8/2020 at 9:00 AM, Lecka said:

 Also sometimes kids struggle through a certain class but they are able to pass and that’s good enough.  
 

He doesn’t have to do “A” level work to get through his program.  He needs to do “C” or “D” level work in his weakest classes.  
 

I think it would be better to call and talk to an admissions counselor about all of this.  

 +1 to all of this, particularly the fact that he simply needs to pass with the grade required for that program. As the old joke goes, do you know what they call the person who got all C's in medical school? Doctor. 

I know it's overwhelming, and the stress of your illness makes you want to nail down plans, but sometimes you just have to keep on trucking. He may have a jump in maturity over the next year, he may not, but he will be okay. If it takes him an extra year to get into the program, he will be okay. If he doesn't get into the program, he will find something else to do and he will be okay. It may take him until his mid-20s to get through a program or find  a decent job that lets him pick up skills, but you know what? He won't be the first, and he will still be okay.