.

[Pen]

In theory— I very much liked the Hygiene Hypothesis when I first heard it as a great justification for lots of animals which I love.

 

However, there may be a problem of correlation not causation. 

In my own life there were a lot of moves, including international ones. I suspect that asthma is/was more of a problem in certain urban areas due to city smog and other pollutants which rural areas had less of. There tended to be fewer animals and pets in more dense urban environments and also tended to be more smog and industrial pollutants type problems in those same environments.  I know several rural kids who developed asthma following wildfire smoke exposure . 

 

I think that’s a different matter from

 building up personal immunity to the world around one and not “living in a bubble.”

It is clear that one builds up immunity to things one is exposed to.  I know that both from study of immunology and as a practical matter. For example, people often get “tourista” symptoms when traveling abroad — not only Nort Americans    In Mexico, but also travelers from some Other places to USA will have troubles. Local kids in my current area seem to be able to play and swim in creeks without getting sick, but visitors who don’t gradually build up tolerance tend to get sick (probably giardiasis type problems from beavers and other animals) .

 

I don’t think some mask use is going to ruin innate or acquired immunity.  

 

 If it did probably most surgeons who use PPE would be immune impaired and I do not think that is the case. And I don’t think soap and water hand washing does either. I am against overuse of antibiotics and antibacterial soaps and so on as a general matter to not cause antibiotic resistant bacteria. 

 

I think Mask use would tend to decrease viral or other loads to where the innate immune system can cope better, not to destroy the immune system.  There is no current justification afaik for thinking wearing a mask would destroy the immune system.   Do you know of any? 

 

People spent most of human history and prehistory in much less dense populations than there are now, and in a time without rapid global travel, so that each person probably encountered far less new microbes per month/childhood/lifetime than a modern person probably does.  

If there was going to be some spillover illness from animals it was probably a relatively more local geographic group of animals with probably more time for immune systems to develop (maybe a generation or more) and adjust before being hit by another one.

 

 

Whether due to human incursions into animal territory, or wet markets, or deliberate or accidental activities in biological laboratories, I do not expect that SARS2 is going to be over and that after that we will not ever see another such novel virus (or bacteria or other microbe) to come.   I think some judicious continuation of precautions during high risk activity such as international travel, might help to decrease disease spread from that. 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Pen

[rebcoola]

We will mask regularly until the vaccine is in wide use.  We will likely continue to mask in some crowded situations.  We will also mask when we have to go out when sick. Or when we have allergies just in case.    We are an on the go family I am hoping staying home while sick will become more common.

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

Before the pandemic, I wore a mask on an airplane in April 2019 because I needed to fly internationally at the tail end of a bad case of the flu. I was protecting others, not me.

Now, I mask and make masks for others.

In the future, I plan to mask when I meet with large groups of people in poorly ventilated areas. I don't like getting sick.

My sister enjoys that masks allow her to go to stores with mildew and mold without getting sick now. I think I may also mask when I go into older buildings.

Robert Redfield was forced to walk back his statement, but, if you listen to his comment in the video, it is clear he is thinking and not confused. Other events, like when only employees who wore face shields but not employees who work masks got sick at a Swiss hotel, offer insight into the protective benefits of masks.

Emily

My  husband would always wear a mask on the plane during flu season so people would stay away from him.

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, Farrar said:

See... that's odd to me... how could you possibly get through grocery checkout without coming within 6 ft of someone. There's not a 6 foot berth in a grocery aisle (or maybe almost? barely?) so you seriously never see another person on the same aisle ever? I find this stretches my thinking a good bit. Like I said, my mom lives in a much smaller city with suberby parts. I ran two errands for my mom, I masked, everyone in the store masked. And thank goodness, because I certainly passed within 6 ft of people a few times - especially the cashier. I was thinking more in everyday life outside of stores. 

 

When I lived in NYC I think that would have been very hard in any of the cramped and often crowded stores I went to.

At the store I mainly use now it with wider aisles and more space between row ends and cashiers it is a matter of keeping in mind that two big carts is about 6m and it is quite possible.   Closer than that to cashier, but in Spring they put in plexiglass dividers which probably helps. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

If I have understood all the science correctly.....the protection that a super basic mask (ie whatever you pick up at Joann or Walmart etc etc, which is what the vast majority of people are wearing) provides to the person actually wearing the mask, is minimal at best.  Like very tiny percentages.  

So, if a person already homeschools, already is not a "go go go" type of family, already has limited exposure to the public generally speaking.....does your question make sense in terms of the actual level of risk such a person encounters?  Meaning.....how much *additional* protection could a mask provide?  And if that additional protection is in like the single digits (btw, I am pretty sure the science on that particular situation doesn't actually exist) then is wearing a mask really worth it, in terms of self protection, which is what this particular aspect of your question is about.

 

I guess my argument would be that people should do a little research and choose the most effective mask they can get (or make themselves.) 

What is the point of wearing a mask if it’s not going to do anyone any good? That seems foolish to me. If people have to wear the masks anyway, why not wear masks that actually help themselves and others remain virus-free? 

And honestly, a regular surgical mask is still pretty decent. I don’t know why so many people act like they don’t help, when doctors have been recommending them for years when patients are ill or immunosuppressed, and hospitals have required that visitors wear them during bad flu seasons for quite some time now, as well. I really think a lot of people are so desperate to find fault with masks for the one simple reason that they don’t want the inconvenience of having to wear them.

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

My  husband would always wear a mask on the plane during flu season so people would stay away from him.

That was such a smart idea!

[Catwoman]

24 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

Self check out allows you to have no contact with people.  They are becoming very common in my small midwestern city at grocery and big box stores. 

 

Eta..at check out at least.  And one way aisles in stores also reduces contact.  

Don’t you have long lines at the self-checkouts? We do. 

[Catwoman]

29 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I know this going to sound bad, but what the heck...

I don't need to know wear a mask. I stay home when I am sick and keep my kids home when they are sick. I stay away from people as much as I can. I don't touch my face in public and wash my hands when it's appropriate. But I wish everyone else would be masked indefinitely bc people are gross and selfish!!!

I can not tell you how many times we've had half of co-op getting sick bc one person would refuse to stay home. I can not tell you how many times I see snotty kids touching every surface everywhere they are. I can not tell you how many coworkers of mine (current and previous jobs) thought that they were winning super-hero awards by showing up sick.

So, yeah, I wish this masking thing would become a permanent flu season thing!!!!

 

I have always hated the people who used to actually brag about showing up at work when they were sick! And when I was a kid, we had a neighbor whose mother insisted that her dd win the perfect attendance award every year at school... and of course, the rest of us were always catching whatever she had. My mom used to get so annoyed! 

And don’t even get me started on co-op when my ds was younger. Grrrrr!!!!!

[kirstenhill]

48 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Don’t you have long lines at the self-checkouts? We do. 

Only if it's peak shopping hours.  Most of the time I either walk right up or maybe have to wait a few moments for a station to open up.

 

In answer to the original question, masking is required here and we started masking before the local requirement when the CDC first recommended it.  I think when the local/state requirement is dropped (which I'm not expecting any time soon) we would look to what public health suggestions are from state health department or CDC.  I would suppose they will still recommend it until a vaccine is available, so that's maybe what will happen.  Not sure I would mask "post pandemic" except if I was sick or if it becomes a generally expected cultural thing in our area every winter during flu season. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by kirstenhill
Grammar

[Ausmumof3]

Not masking because we have no mandate and no cases outside quarantine.  If there’s a community transmission outbreak here I will avoid people as much as possible but will mask if I need to be in any indoor or crowded environment.   

[mumto2]

I have always been extra careful during flu season even with annual flu shots as I didn’t want to transmit it to the vulnerable people in my life.  I have never owned a mask before so am happy to add them to my purell stash for the future., So if I am sick or if I am going someplace that I am apt to encounter more risk than I consider normal......maybe doctor waiting rooms etc.  I definitely plan to mask on planes in the future........

That said I am so looking forward to seeing people’s smiles again. 

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, Happymomof1 said:

I cannot wait until life is normal and I never have to wear these awful things again. I hate them. I hate them. I hate them. I hate not seeing people's faces. Are they happy ? Sad? Do they like what you say? Had to give a presentation in class and totally disorienting not to have nonverbal feedback. I'm ready to sing in choir. I will burn every single one of them. I will not be happy until they are gone.

I will wear them to protect others until we have a vaccine and I've gotten it.  I do not get sick very often at all. Very rarely. We've gotten the flu shots ever since we got the flu 20 years ago. For missions we have gotten every conceivable vaccine. 

But I long for life to be normal with hugs instead of cringing, holding hands for prayers,singing in choir at fortissimo. Then life will be good again.

I actually a wonder if this will help people be more understanding toward people with autism etc than can have trouble reading body language.

[hopeallgoeswell]

10 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Are you saying that you never mask, not even in stores or other indoor public places? Is there no mask requirement in your area? 

From March-end of June, I was not wearing a face covering and neither were roughly half the people who live in my town.  The last week of June, my governor issued a proclamation mandating face coverings: any material as long as it covered your mouth and nose.  The week after that, businesses were to be issued a $1000 fine for allowing someone in without a face covering on, valid medical note or not.  No face covering=No entrance.  You could, however, put on a face covering, walk into a restaurant, be seated 20 seconds later, take off your face covering, and eat a leisurely meal with all of the other people who were not wearing a face covering.  So, no, I have not been in a store or other public place since July 7 except for the local coffee shop because I can go through the drive thru, grab a coffee, park, walk in while I sip my coffee, and sit my butt in a chair with the other people who also have no face coverings on.  As far as I can tell from waiting on grocery pick up at several different stores a few times a week, compliance has stayed at 100%.   I have been keeping an eye on my county's numbers since the beginning. The numbers from March-beginning of July were in the single digits most weeks, a few had numbers in the teens.  I thought it was odd because I live so close to Seattle, people only really stayed home for the last two weeks of March, and face coverings were only being used by about 50% of people.  A week after the mandate, numbers doubled for the next three weeks and stayed that high until the beginning of September.  I started looking at other states.  CA is nearby, issued a strict face covering mandate mid-June, and their state's curves looked similar to my county's curves.  One would think if the community face covering mandate worked, numbers would at least plateau or maybe even go down?  The more I looked into it, the more befuddled I got.  Finally, I stumbled onto some literature of randomized, controlled studies that concluded community-wide face coverings don't reduce cases of ILIs in any statistically significant way, saying something similar to what The WHO put out and what the CDC's stance has been up until a few months ago.

Quote

Please don’t take this question as snarky, because I would really like to know the answer... Are you not at all worried about you or a member of your family catching Covid? Do you regularly see any older or higher risk friends or family members? 

No, I'm not worried.  We've been seriously ill maybe one time each over the past 10-20 years and it's always been during a move or time of high stress when we weren't keeping up with supporting our immune system.  There is a strong focus in our house on keeping as healthy as possible, pandemic or not, because there are always pathogens around us.  We don't regularly see anyone high risk.

Quote

Also, if you were going to someone’s house and they specifically requested that you and your family wear masks, would you do it, or would you decline the invitation? 

I would have to decline and then we could figure out something fun that both of us were comfortable with!

Quote

Again, I’m just trying to understand your rationale. I’m not going to pick apart your answer and tell you that you’re wrong if you are nice enough to explain your thoughts on this. I mean, anyone who has read any of my posts knows that I’m pro-mask, but I’m doing my best to understand the other side of this issue, mainly because I have to admit that I’m having kind of unpleasant thoughts toward the people who are anti-mask, and I don’t like feeling that way about people I have always liked and respected in the past. I may never agree with the anti-mask position, but I would like to better understand it.

Thank you for being civil :).  I have been on the education boards for about a decade and have only starting perusing the chat board recently.  I never knew they could get so, um, interesting.  The way I look at it is if you (general you) are going to say, "Listen to the doctors/epidemiologists/virologists/etc," then you can't only listen to the experts in front of the cameras who are saying, "This is a deadly, deadly virus!  Wear a mask until we can make a vaccine and distribute It to everyone!"  There are epidemiologists out there from respectable institutions giving different projections.  There are doctors who are treating their patients with protocols that are working.  There are virologists who are saying that this isn't some totally alien virus that we know nothing about.  Science should be open and debatable.  When differing opinions have the fallacy book thrown at them, I start to asking some questions.  I know my viewpoint of wear-an-effective-mask-that-protects-you-if-you-need-it-and-don't-if-you-don't isn't a popular one on this forum, but everyone I know irl, to include people in medical professions, are in the same boat as me.  I know that others are in a different spot, and that patience and understanding is needed all around.

Edited October 6, 2020 by hopeallgoeswell

[Carrie12345]

I mask because of science, not because of mandate. Though the mandate has helped to mostly normalize it. I was semi-joking to a friend back in December or January about wishing masking were normalized in the US because I hate “regular” winter germs.

I don’t know what the next year will look like yet. I don’t want to be around people who don’t want to protect me, so I may not have anywhere TO wear a mask.

 

[Not_a_Number]

I honestly haven’t thought that far ahead. We’ve never been the sorts of people who hand sanitize a lot or otherwise avoid the run-of-the-mill diseases. On the other hand, getting the flu in November (guessing based on symptoms here; I didn’t have a test) was really not fun.

At the very least, it’ll be convenient to own masks. But the bigger question is whether I’ll keep kids home when they are sniffly... it’s hard to know if I’d be able to, because it’s always so disruptive of their activities. Maybe if everyone else does it, too, they’ll be sniffly less of the time?

These are all interesting questions. 

[Happy2BaMom]

9 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Not masking because we have no mandate and no cases outside quarantine.  If there’s a community transmission outbreak here I will avoid people as much as possible but will mask if I need to be in any indoor or crowded environment.   

 

No cases outside quarantine?

Wow, that's a different galaxy then here in the States.

[Ausmumof3]

25 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

 

No cases outside quarantine?

Wow, that's a different galaxy then here in the States.

Yes feels like a different world.  I think in vic there’s a sense that the rest of Aus don’t really understand what they’ve been through.  We have been very fortunate so far.  

[J-rap]

We have a mask mandate and I think our governor has been sensible and wise about it.  I feel like it's justified.  I believe that when the mandate is removed, it'll be because things are improving, and then it'll depend more on everyone's own circumstances and local area, and I'm good with that.

I live in an inner-city neighborhood and in a dense high-rise building and run errands where many people shop and help take care of my 92-year-old father and hope to be able to spend time with my 92-year-old mother again, and my dh is high-risk.  So, I'll continue to wear a mask when it seems like the wise thing to do to protect others around me.  

I have no idea what that will look like right now, but I think I'll just know it when I know it.

[skimomma]

I think I will continue to mask when sick, on planes, in medical buildings, and during times of peak illness such as flu season.  I like that they might become more culturally acceptable for situations like that.

As for Covid, I am 100% for masking but rarely have to mask now.  We have a state mandate and I live in a currently raging hot spot.  But the mandate is largely ignored here.  It is considered a political statement here to wear a mask.  I don't think there is any circumstance that would change the minds of those who will not wear one.  I'd say about half of the people I see in stores are properly masked at any given time.  But, like others here, I live in a  place where I can go about my business and rarely get within 6 feet of others.  And when that does happen, like grocery shopping during a busy time or passing someone on the sidewalk, the time is very brief.  I do mask indoors.  The only indoor places I go are grocery shopping once a week, to the post office to check my PO box once a month or so, and the very occasional run inside a hardware or other store.  I work from home.  The community spread that is raging here is not from the sidewalk or grocery store transmission but rather from the hopping bars, college parties, K12 schools, huge indoor weddings and church services, and restaurants.  None of which I frequent.  While I shake my head at the unmasked in the grocery store, I am not worried about exposure to them.  We have bubbled with a handful of other families.  We do socialize unmasked, but outdoors and distanced only.  I know this is risky but it is a risk we are willing to take.  

 

[Lady Florida.]

We never had a mask mandate in my state. My county didn't have one but some of the cities within the county did. Most have rescinded the mandate or are about to because our governor said cities are not allowed to penalize people for not wearing masks. It makes mandates useless. Fortunately many businesses are still requiring masks regardless of the incompetence of our state government. 

I started wearing a mask before it was recommended and will continue to do so until there's widespread vaccination. I hope masking becomes normal during flu season as it is in many Asian countries. 

[SKL]

I have many thoughts about this.

I think that if someone is sick or believes they might be sick, they should try not to spread it around, especially to people who may have health risk factors.  A mask isn't the only way, or even the best way, to prevent that.  Personally, I am almost never within 6' of another person, and I'm also almost never sick.  Plus, I get a headache when I wear a mask for more than a few minutes at a time.

Given what we think we know about Covid, I will not be comfortable being in indoor places like church or around my parents until I am pretty sure I won't get older people sick.  Whether that means there's a vax for at-risk people or that Covid has run its course and fizzled out, we'll see.  With most other serious illnesses I might spread, I would know I was sick or exposed and I'd stay away for that reason.  The effectiveness of masks is not sufficient to make me feel OK knowingly attending events with at-risk people.

As far as wearing masks being a virtue ... I get it, but there is also a lot that we as a society are missing right now.  Not being able to ever see another person's face ... how are so many people convinced this does not matter?  Even the new habit of turning and looking away from every person I pass throughout the day ... one year ago that would have been considered intensely unfriendly.  I really think we are losing a lot.  We need to find a happy medium.  I mean sure, if you're going through the airport and you might have a bug, wear a mask.  Nobody cares what your face looks like anyway.  But no, I don't think it can be the new normal.  I don't want my kids to have to try to learn from teachers whose mouths are hidden.  I don't want them to miss seeing their friends smile and laugh.  (In their new school, the question of how to decide where to sit at lunch came up.  "Just look for a friendly face" isn't an option.  This is not OK for the long term.)

I also look foward to singing in church and singing the national anthem at a stadium.  I guess that makes me a selfish person.  Or maybe it makes me human.  We need to find the balance.

[dsmith]

I will mask until an effective vaccine is widely available and the numbers are negligible, and probably beyond that. The only problem is that I have been unable to get used to masks. No matter what I do I feel like I'm suffocating. I've tried so many masks, tried various suggestions I've read online, tried wearing it throughout the day to become acclimated to the feeling, etc. The best I have is Happy Mask but I still have trouble wearing it. I had this issue before Covid-19 - I noticed when walking my dog in the cold I felt like I'm suffocating when I put my scarf over my face, and when trying a mask when mowing the lawn I almost passed out and was basically hyperventilating. I stay home except for the occasional trip to Walgreens or the local farmer's market, or stay in the car while my husband runs in to various stores. I can make it about 1/3 of the way through Walgreens before I start feeling out of breath, woozy and dizzy. It's driving me crazy because I really want to go to a few places. 

If I could tolerate masks I would wear them anywhere I thought I may be exposed to various viruses post Covid-19. 95% of the MS relapses I've had were preceded by a respiratory virus. 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, dsmith said:

I will mask until an effective vaccine is widely available and the numbers are negligible, and probably beyond that. The only problem is that I have been unable to get used to masks. No matter what I do I feel like I'm suffocating. I've tried so many masks, tried various suggestions I've read online, tried wearing it throughout the day to become acclimated to the feeling, etc. The best I have is Happy Mask but I still have trouble wearing it. I had this issue before Covid-19 - I noticed when walking my dog in the cold I felt like I'm suffocating when I put my scarf over my face, and when trying a mask when mowing the lawn I almost passed out and was basically hyperventilating. I stay home except for the occasional trip to Walgreens or the local farmer's market, or stay in the car while my husband runs in to various stores. I can make it about 1/3 of the way through Walgreens before I start feeling out of breath, woozy and dizzy. It's driving me crazy because I really want to go to a few places. 

If I could tolerate masks I would wear them anywhere I thought I may be exposed to various viruses post Covid-19. 95% of the MS relapses I've had were preceded by a respiratory virus. 

I was thinking of starting a thread to see how common it is that masking is really hard.  It seems that most people feel it's no big deal.  Even my kids don't complain.  But my experience is not like that at all.  The other day I had to run out of a store because it was impossible to breathe in there while masked.  It depends on the air quality ... I'm better if the air is cool and not thick.

When I was a kid, I liked to sleep with my head covered, but then I discovered that this was causing headaches.  So maybe that is a thing for me personally.  So, there are at least some people who have difficulty masking despite not having an official "medical excuse."

[rebcoola]

8 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

From March-end of June, I was not wearing a face covering and neither were roughly half the people who live in my town.  The last week of June, my governor issued a proclamation mandating face coverings: any material as long as it covered your mouth and nose.  The week after that, businesses were to be issued a $1000 fine for allowing someone in without a face covering on, valid medical note or not.  No face covering=No entrance.  You could, however, put on a face covering, walk into a restaurant, be seated 20 seconds later, take off your face covering, and eat a leisurely meal with all of the other people who were not wearing a face covering.  So, no, I have not been in a store or other public place since July 7 except for the local coffee shop because I can go through the drive thru, grab a coffee, park, walk in while I sip my coffee, and sit my butt in a chair with the other people who also have no face coverings on.  As far as I can tell from waiting on grocery pick up at several different stores a few times a week, compliance has stayed at 100%.   I have been keeping an eye on my county's numbers since the beginning. The numbers from March-beginning of July were in the single digits most weeks, a few had numbers in the teens.  I thought it was odd because I live so close to Seattle, people only really stayed home for the last two weeks of March, and face coverings were only being used by about 50% of people.  A week after the mandate, numbers doubled for the next three weeks and stayed that high until the beginning of September.  I started looking at other states.  CA is nearby, issued a strict face covering mandate mid-June, and their state's curves looked similar to my county's curves.  One would think if the community face covering mandate worked, numbers would at least plateau or maybe even go down?  The more I looked into it, the more befuddled I got.  Finally, I stumbled onto some literature of randomized, controlled studies that concluded community-wide face coverings don't reduce cases of ILIs in any statistically significant way, saying something similar to what The WHO put out and what the CDC's stance has been up until a few months ago.

No, I'm not worried.  We've been seriously ill maybe one time each over the past 10-20 years and it's always been during a move or time of high stress when we weren't keeping up with supporting our immune system.  There is a strong focus in our house on keeping as healthy as possible, pandemic or not, because there are always pathogens around us.  We don't regularly see anyone high risk.

I would have to decline and then we could figure out something fun that both of us were comfortable with!

Thank you for being civil :).  I have been on the education boards for about a decade and have only starting perusing the chat board recently.  I never knew they could get so, um, interesting.  The way I look at it is if you (general you) are going to say, "Listen to the doctors/epidemiologists/virologists/etc," then you can't only listen to the experts in front of the cameras who are saying, "This is a deadly, deadly virus!  Wear a mask until we can make a vaccine and distribute It to everyone!"  There are epidemiologists out there from respectable institutions giving different projections.  There are doctors who are treating their patients with protocols that are working.  There are virologists who are saying that this isn't some totally alien virus that we know nothing about.  Science should be open and debatable.  When differing opinions have the fallacy book thrown at them, I start to asking some questions.  I know my viewpoint of wear-an-effective-mask-that-protects-you-if-you-need-it-and-don't-if-you-don't isn't a popular one on this forum, but everyone I know irl, to include people in medical professions, are in the same boat as me.  I know that others are in a different spot, and that patience and understanding is needed all around.

Interesting I'm on the dry side of the state and things were very bad.  Voluntary masking was very low.  The tracking also said we were the worst about staying home.  The mask mandate caused an immediate drop in cases even though they allowed outdoor dining at the same time.  We seem to now be stuck at about 20 cases a day.  The health department says ~60% of cases are tracked to private gatherings without masks/distancing.   

Maybe in a place that was already doing other things well the masks provide a false sense of security?  Where as places people are being irresponsible in general mandating masks helps?

Edited October 6, 2020 by rebcoola
Weird autocorrect

[Kanin]

15 hours ago, SereneHome said:

I know this going to sound bad, but what the heck...

I don't need to know wear a mask. I stay home when I am sick and keep my kids home when they are sick. I stay away from people as much as I can. I don't touch my face in public and wash my hands when it's appropriate. But I wish everyone else would be masked indefinitely bc people are gross and selfish!!!

I can not tell you how many times we've had half of co-op getting sick bc one person would refuse to stay home. I can not tell you how many times I see snotty kids touching every surface everywhere they are. I can not tell you how many coworkers of mine (current and previous jobs) thought that they were winning super-hero awards by showing up sick.

So, yeah, I wish this masking thing would become a permanent flu season thing!!!!

 

I'm with you. I am super careful not to spread germs when I'm sick. I never went to the level of wearing a mask during flu season, but I probably will wear one in stores in the future when there are lots of viruses circulating. I'll feel comfortable about it thanks to all the masking we've all been doing. I already didn't go out to eat much or spend time in crowded places during flu season, with the exception of the grocery store. I'm not sure about work, since I'm a teacher. Sometimes I'm completely distracted all day by thinking about the puking, sneezing, snotty kids that are surrounding me. 

Although... I really like getting lattes at my local coffee shop. I miss that social time so much. Hmmm...

I agree with the others who have posted that wearing a mask when you know you're sick is a considerate thing to do. The fact that a mask also protects me is a bonus.

I'm hoping that mask wearing won't be considered too weird once this is all over. Now that we have cute masks that don't look too clinical, hopefully people will understand that I'm either mildly sick or just choosing to protect myself, and not give me the side-eye.

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

As far as wearing masks being a virtue ... I get it, but there is also a lot that we as a society are missing right now.  Not being able to ever see another person's face ... how are so many people convinced this does not matter? 

Oh, I think seeing people's faces matters a lot. I desperately miss seeing people and being close to them. When this is over, I'm going to turn into a hugger!

When numbers are super low, I'll go maskless at friends' houses, or at certain social gatherings, but for things like stores, I'm fine with masking. In fact, as a teacher, it might be nice to shop anonymously sometimes, like in the underwear section of TJ Maxx 😃

[Kanin]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Oh goodness gracious....

When this is over, I absolutely hope that masking isn't a "normal" practice.  But....I also hope that most folks don't run the opposite direction and turn into huggers too.

 

Haha! I hear you. Maybe I won't become a hugger after all. Lol. Maybe a high-fiver?

[SKL]

Yeah, I am not for more hugging, LOL.  I didn't even know I cared about smiles until this Covid crap came along.

[Pen]

 

I think this thread is going wonderfully with a controversial topic and extremely civil, polite discourse.  

I don’t know about others, but I also find it much easier to stop and consider viewpoints different than my own and even to reconsider my own when the discussion is like this.

 

My apology to @Æthelflæd for a past mask related thread in spring where I didn’t keep my cool!  I think I am learning! 

[hopeallgoeswell]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I have many thoughts about this.

I think that if someone is sick or believes they might be sick, they should try not to spread it around, especially to people who may have health risk factors.  A mask isn't the only way, or even the best way, to prevent that.  Personally, I am almost never within 6' of another person, and I'm also almost never sick.  Plus, I get a headache when I wear a mask for more than a few minutes at a time.

Given what we think we know about Covid, I will not be comfortable being in indoor places like church or around my parents until I am pretty sure I won't get older people sick.  Whether that means there's a vax for at-risk people or that Covid has run its course and fizzled out, we'll see.  With most other serious illnesses I might spread, I would know I was sick or exposed and I'd stay away for that reason.  The effectiveness of masks is not sufficient to make me feel OK knowingly attending events with at-risk people.

As far as wearing masks being a virtue ... I get it, but there is also a lot that we as a society are missing right now.  Not being able to ever see another person's face ... how are so many people convinced this does not matter?  Even the new habit of turning and looking away from every person I pass throughout the day ... one year ago that would have been considered intensely unfriendly.  I really think we are losing a lot.  We need to find a happy medium.  I mean sure, if you're going through the airport and you might have a bug, wear a mask.  Nobody cares what your face looks like anyway.  But no, I don't think it can be the new normal.  I don't want my kids to have to try to learn from teachers whose mouths are hidden.  I don't want them to miss seeing their friends smile and laugh.  (In their new school, the question of how to decide where to sit at lunch came up.  "Just look for a friendly face" isn't an option.  This is not OK for the long term.)

I also look foward to singing in church and singing the national anthem at a stadium.  I guess that makes me a selfish person.  Or maybe it makes me human.  We need to find the balance.

This.  I am not an emotional person and find it difficult to read others' feelings.  It used to get me into hot water when I was a kid.  I have, thankfully, come up with coping skills so as to not be a heartless robot.  Since I am a visual person, my main avenue for accomplishing this is facial features.  Masks remove most of my data points.  Plus, I am a bit hard of hearing and rely on people's mouths to help...which I didn't even realize until people started wearing masks and I kept having to ask people to repeat themselves.

[Pen]

 

41 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I grew up in that country at a time when the mighty Himalayas  was visible from the distance of approx 125 miles (200 Km) away and could not be seen within a generation.

 

Wow! You are fortunate to have that!

 

I grew up partially in Los Angeles when there was frequently so much pollution that nearby trees looked hazy in LA and our lungs hurt. Catalina Island, 48 miles off the coast was rarely visible.  It was improved somewhat after my childhood with some pollution controls for vehicle emissions and other steps. 

 

[easypeasy]

Haven't read other replies so it doesn't sway my opinion. 🙂

For COVID masking, I don't know how long. Right now I am so used to NOT being around ppl that I feel that when things start returning to normal, I'll prob want a mask when in crowds just as a (mentally) protective measure.

For future, though? I'm gonna wear a mask when allergens are high (this has been the best 6-month stretch I've ever had thanks for newly-installed air filters in the house and masks when out!) and during flu season when I go shopping or have to be in crowds. I might cut back on my annual illnesses!!

[The Ghost of Æthelthryth]

.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Saxony

[Catwoman]

10 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

From March-end of June, I was not wearing a face covering and neither were roughly half the people who live in my town.  The last week of June, my governor issued a proclamation mandating face coverings: any material as long as it covered your mouth and nose.  The week after that, businesses were to be issued a $1000 fine for allowing someone in without a face covering on, valid medical note or not.  No face covering=No entrance.  You could, however, put on a face covering, walk into a restaurant, be seated 20 seconds later, take off your face covering, and eat a leisurely meal with all of the other people who were not wearing a face covering.  So, no, I have not been in a store or other public place since July 7 except for the local coffee shop because I can go through the drive thru, grab a coffee, park, walk in while I sip my coffee, and sit my butt in a chair with the other people who also have no face coverings on.  As far as I can tell from waiting on grocery pick up at several different stores a few times a week, compliance has stayed at 100%.   I have been keeping an eye on my county's numbers since the beginning. The numbers from March-beginning of July were in the single digits most weeks, a few had numbers in the teens.  I thought it was odd because I live so close to Seattle, people only really stayed home for the last two weeks of March, and face coverings were only being used by about 50% of people.  A week after the mandate, numbers doubled for the next three weeks and stayed that high until the beginning of September.  I started looking at other states.  CA is nearby, issued a strict face covering mandate mid-June, and their state's curves looked similar to my county's curves.  One would think if the community face covering mandate worked, numbers would at least plateau or maybe even go down?  The more I looked into it, the more befuddled I got.  Finally, I stumbled onto some literature of randomized, controlled studies that concluded community-wide face coverings don't reduce cases of ILIs in any statistically significant way, saying something similar to what The WHO put out and what the CDC's stance has been up until a few months ago.

No, I'm not worried.  We've been seriously ill maybe one time each over the past 10-20 years and it's always been during a move or time of high stress when we weren't keeping up with supporting our immune system.  There is a strong focus in our house on keeping as healthy as possible, pandemic or not, because there are always pathogens around us.  We don't regularly see anyone high risk.

I would have to decline and then we could figure out something fun that both of us were comfortable with!

Thank you for being civil :).  I have been on the education boards for about a decade and have only starting perusing the chat board recently.  I never knew they could get so, um, interesting.  The way I look at it is if you (general you) are going to say, "Listen to the doctors/epidemiologists/virologists/etc," then you can't only listen to the experts in front of the cameras who are saying, "This is a deadly, deadly virus!  Wear a mask until we can make a vaccine and distribute It to everyone!"  There are epidemiologists out there from respectable institutions giving different projections.  There are doctors who are treating their patients with protocols that are working.  There are virologists who are saying that this isn't some totally alien virus that we know nothing about.  Science should be open and debatable.  When differing opinions have the fallacy book thrown at them, I start to asking some questions.  I know my viewpoint of wear-an-effective-mask-that-protects-you-if-you-need-it-and-don't-if-you-don't isn't a popular one on this forum, but everyone I know irl, to include people in medical professions, are in the same boat as me.  I know that others are in a different spot, and that patience and understanding is needed all around.

Thank you! I really appreciate hearing your point of view without it turning into an argument. 🙂 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

This.  I am not an emotional person and find it difficult to read others' feelings.  It used to get me into hot water when I was a kid.  I have, thankfully, come up with coping skills so as to not be a heartless robot.  Since I am a visual person, my main avenue for accomplishing this is facial features.  Masks remove most of my data points.  Plus, I am a bit hard of hearing and rely on people's mouths to help...which I didn't even realize until people started wearing masks and I kept having to ask people to repeat themselves.

Even though I’m one of the mask-defenders, I do feel very badly for anyone with hearing loss, because I hear very well, and it can sometimes still be difficult to catch every word if someone isn’t speaking quite loudly and clearly. And I also often wonder if I’m perceived as yelling at people, because I find that I speak more loudly when I’m wearing a mask than when I’m not — especially when I’m someplace like the drive-up window at the pharmacy, where communication can be not that great even without both the pharmacy person and me wearing masks.

[Catwoman]

9 minutes ago, Heartwood said:

Thankfully there has never been a mask mandate where I live.  I only mask when a business requires it. The majority of people here do not mask. 

Are you finding that many businesses require masks? Has the situation changed at all over the past several months? 

We have a mask mandate (and I’m happy about it,) so I’m wondering how it works in places where there are no requirements. 

[Catwoman]

20 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

ETA: Every time I say "Robert Redfield" I think of Robert Redford in the only movie I remember seeing him in, "The Way We Were." Man, that movie made me sob.

It would be pretty disappointing thinking you were going to see Robert Redford and then Robert Redfield showed up. 😉 

[The Ghost of Æthelthryth]

.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Saxony

[Pen]

10 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

From March-end of June, I was not wearing a face covering and neither were roughly half the people who live in my town.  The last week of June, my governor issued a proclamation mandating face coverings: any material as long as it covered your mouth and nose.  The week after that, businesses were to be issued a $1000 fine for allowing someone in without a face covering on, valid medical note or not.  No face covering=No entrance.  You could, however, put on a face covering, walk into a restaurant, be seated 20 seconds later, take off your face covering, and eat a leisurely meal with all of the other people who were not wearing a face covering.  So, no, I have not been in a store or other public place since July 7 except for the local coffee shop because I can go through the drive thru, grab a coffee, park, walk in while I sip my coffee, and sit my butt in a chair with the other people who also have no face coverings on.  As far as I can tell from waiting on grocery pick up at several different stores a few times a week, compliance has stayed at 100%.   I have been keeping an eye on my county's numbers since the beginning. The numbers from March-beginning of July were in the single digits most weeks, a few had numbers in the teens.  I thought it was odd because I live so close to Seattle, people only really stayed home for the last two weeks of March, and face coverings were only being used by about 50% of people.  A week after the mandate, numbers doubled for the next three weeks and stayed that high until the beginning of September.  I started looking at other states.  CA is nearby, issued a strict face covering mandate mid-June, and their state's curves looked similar to my county's curves.  One would think if the community face covering mandate worked, numbers would at least plateau or maybe even go down?  The more I looked into it, the more befuddled I got.  Finally, I stumbled onto some literature of randomized, controlled studies that concluded community-wide face coverings don't reduce cases of ILIs in any statistically significant way, saying something similar to what The WHO put out and what the CDC's stance has been up until a few months ago.

No, I'm not worried.  We've been seriously ill maybe one time each over the past 10-20 years and it's always been during a move or time of high stress when we weren't keeping up with supporting our immune system.  There is a strong focus in our house on keeping as healthy as possible, pandemic or not, because there are always pathogens around us.  We don't regularly see anyone high risk.

I would have to decline and then we could figure out something fun that both of us were comfortable with!

Thank you for being civil :).  I have been on the education boards for about a decade and have only starting perusing the chat board recently.  I never knew they could get so, um, interesting.  The way I look at it is if you (general you) are going to say, "Listen to the doctors/epidemiologists/virologists/etc," then you can't only listen to the experts in front of the cameras who are saying, "This is a deadly, deadly virus!  Wear a mask until we can make a vaccine and distribute It to everyone!"  There are epidemiologists out there from respectable institutions giving different projections.  There are doctors who are treating their patients with protocols that are working.  There are virologists who are saying that this isn't some totally alien virus that we know nothing about.  Science should be open and debatable.  When differing opinions have the fallacy book thrown at them, I start to asking some questions.  I know my viewpoint of wear-an-effective-mask-that-protects-you-if-you-need-it-and-don't-if-you-don't isn't a popular one on this forum, but everyone I know irl, to include people in medical professions, are in the same boat as me.  I know that others are in a different spot, and that patience and understanding is needed all around.

 

I appreciate your sharing this. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Æthelflæd said:

Thanks everyone for the replies and response decorum. 

I have a part 2 sort of and I am going to flat out request to please do not bog down, nor bog down others in epidemiological terminology like a gotcha with efficacy vs effectiveness etc. Afaik, the vast majority of people here are lay persons and not epidemiologists in any way shape or form, so I think the discussion is easier when people aren't worried about getting bashed for using the wrong terminology. I'm going to use "effectiveness" as understood in general every day conversation, because I think most people know and think of effectiveness in a very similar way. 

So, in light of that- In terms of a vaccine, if you are waiting for a vaccine for resumption of "normal" activities, what level of effectiveness would you want a vaccine to have , before the vaccine allowed you to operate in a fairly normal-ish manner (masking or not, but say full return to pre-plague activities generally speaking)? In other words, what is your threshold? 100%, 70%? 50%? Less? 

Would you take the numbers off the finalized study, or do you plan to wait through a set time period to see how things played out in the wider population as a whole? 

 

97%+ effective @ 3 months

95%+ effective @ 6+months

90% effective @ 12+ months

 

I will wait at least six months after vaccine launch or three months after this administration is no longer in charge before accepting these figures.

[The Ghost of Æthelthryth]

.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Saxony

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Æthelflæd said:

Without being political, were there to be no administration change would that prevent you from using the vaccine at all? Or would other global verification suffice after a time period? 

It would 100% delay my acceptance of the vaccine. I need adults with a backbone, backed by data, to be in charge of certifying these numbers. In the absence of that, I'll wait.

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Æthelflæd said:

Thanks everyone for the replies and response decorum. 

I have a part 2 sort of and I am going to flat out request to please do not bog down, nor bog down others in epidemiological terminology like a gotcha with efficacy vs effectiveness etc. Afaik, the vast majority of people here are lay persons and not epidemiologists in any way shape or form, so I think the discussion is easier when people aren't worried about getting bashed for using the wrong terminology. I'm going to use "effectiveness" as understood in general every day conversation, because I think most people know and think of effectiveness in a very similar way. 

So, in light of that- In terms of a vaccine, if you are waiting for a vaccine for resumption of "normal" activities, what level of effectiveness would you want a vaccine to have , before the vaccine allowed you to operate in a fairly normal-ish manner (masking or not, but say full return to pre-plague activities generally speaking)? In other words, what is your threshold? 100%, 70%? 50%? Less? 

Would you take the numbers off the finalized study, or do you plan to wait through a set time period to see how things played out in the wider population as a whole? 

 

I do not have an answer to this currently.

But I do have thoughts and a side question. 

 

The discussion about mask wearing causing possible reduction in carefulness  made me wonder about that with regard to vaccines . I don’t seem to be a person for whom flu vaccine is effective (which I now wonder if it could be D related). And I now wonder if my experience in getting flu when I got flu shot was due to thinking I was protected and thus letting down my guard in other ways - Rather than as I had previously thought some greater susceptibility due to the vaccination. (Or could be neither, or a combination.) 

If a CV19 vaccine has a high percent effectiveness, then people letting down their guard because of a vaccine is probably is not much of an issue.

If it has a lower effectiveness, is it possible that people dropping their guard (masks, distance, hand washing, whatever) in other ways would be a problem?  And perhaps a problem not just for CV19, but also for other illness too? 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

I do not have an answer to this currently.

But I do have thoughts and a side question. 

 

The discussion about mask wearing causing possible reduction in carefulness  made me wonder about that with regard to vaccines . I don’t seem to be a person for whom flu vaccine is effective (which I now wonder if it could be D related). And I now wonder if my experience in getting flu when I got flu shot was due to thinking I was protected and thus letting down my guard in other ways - Rather than as I had previously thought some greater susceptibility due to the vaccination. (Or could be neither, or a combination.) 

If a CV19 vaccine has a high percent effectiveness, then people letting down their guard because of a vaccine is probably is not much of an issue.

If it has a lower effectiveness, is it possible that people dropping their guard (masks, distance, hand washing, whatever) in other ways would be a problem?  And perhaps a problem not just for CV19, but also for other illness too? 

I have worried about this, too. The president is acting like the vaccine will be completely effective and that once we have a vaccine, life will go right back to normal. Clearly, he is not being truthful about that. None of the experts are claiming that the vaccine will be anywhere near 100% effective. But if people believe the president, I do think things will get worse, because people will think they no longer need to take any precautions against the virus. 

It is a scary thought.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I do not have an answer to this currently.

But I do have thoughts and a side question. 

 

The discussion about mask wearing causing possible reduction in carefulness  made me wonder about that with regard to vaccines . I don’t seem to be a person for whom flu vaccine is effective (which I now wonder if it could be D related). And I now wonder if my experience in getting flu when I got flu shot was due to thinking I was protected and thus letting down my guard in other ways - Rather than as I had previously thought some greater susceptibility due to the vaccination. (Or could be neither, or a combination.) 

If a CV19 vaccine has a high percent effectiveness, then people letting down their guard because of a vaccine is probably is not much of an issue.

If it has a lower effectiveness, is it possible that people dropping their guard (masks, distance, hand washing, whatever) in other ways would be a problem?  And perhaps a problem not just for CV19, but also for other illness too? 

Generally speaking, many (most) Americans DO NOT get flu vaccine b/c people don't take the disease seriously so there is low protection against flu (even when the vaccines a good match for the circulating strains) in general. That would not be the case if/when people adopted a COVID-19 vaccine. 1) people with half a lick of sense know it is more dangerous. 2) The vaccine would (presumably) be a better match for the disease and 3) there would be a far greater uptake rate (presuming trustworthy data, which is a BIG presumption).

[The Ghost of Æthelthryth]

.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Saxony

[mumto2]

Regarding the vaccine......we will be getting it but don’t expect to be allowed at the front of any queue.  Our focus will be to get my YA’s vaccinated so they can resume a bit more of a normal life.  Honestly my current feelings are trending towards pushing myself to the front of the queue!  

My husband is in charge of the decision because he has worked with determining vaccination numbers for herd immunity in a professional capacity.  He is simply hoping for that 40% that is acceptable in flu vaccines with a high degree of safety.  With that we won’t be out hugging strangers but can return to our somewhat germ adverse previous state.......I have always carried and used Purell.😉

[Murphy101]

Snort. I’m in Oklahoma where we do not have a mask mandate and never have. The city next to me does but not the county.  It has had zero affect on my household masking. We mask everywhere we go and we do not do business with any establishment that doesn’t insist on on masking indoors. 
 

We are a ridiculous small minority. Dammit.
 

And the reason why people don’t wear a mask?

”well there isn’t a mandate.”

yeah. Those folks are why we need a mandate. 

[Sneezyone]

We will probably be offered the vax early on to protect DH and, secondarily, military readiness. I have already decided (b/c I am the medical decision-maker in this family) not to take it unless it is proven safe and effective. I do not trust this administration. DH doesn't get a choice. God bless him, he's not risk-free either.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Sneezyone

[hopeallgoeswell]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

It would 100% delay my acceptance of the vaccine. I need adults with a backbone, backed by data, to be in charge of certifying these numbers. In the absence of that, I'll wait.

I may be off, but isn't ACIP in charge of recommending vaccines?  And the CDC is responsible for putting it on the schedule and making the information sheet given out by doctors to patients?  The executive administration can say whatever they like, but the government medical organizations are the ones who are ultimately in charge of the data and certification.