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When ALs Fued and Egos are Crushed.


Gil
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What do you do? My kid (the one who is naturally quick and lacks discipline) got his ego ground to sub-atomic particles by his brother and he's taking it pretty hard.

The Boys can be a bit competitive--they're close in age, share a lot of interests and are similarly academically advanced though they have divergent interests.
They're brothers so of course they compete.

Anyway, Pal has been working hard for nearly 2 months in a math course that he's doing mostly as independent study. Pal has been making good progress but has gotten stomped and spent a few days working on the material a couple of times. He's been rereading through the text with a fine toothed comb. He explained the material to me a few times. We'd discussed it and he was still struggling.

Buddy and Pal have been at each others throats lately for a combo of reasons. They've been feuding (Cabin Fever) and going at it back and forth.
My eldest, Buddy  (who has a vicious tongue on him if you get him riled up) marched up and spoiled the solution easily and told him something mean along the lines of "I did it just to shut you up."

Pals been studying this for 2 months. When Pal realized that Buddy solved the problem so easily the little guy didn't burst into tears but kinda...imploded? Honestly, he seems crushed, absolutely heart-broken. I tried talking to him about it and he's just worked up that he's working hard on this math and "hard work didn't even pay off!" What Buddy did was mean, and Pal has gotten his ego ground to particles.

Pal had always been my super-smart-but-happily-lazy kid. He's made a lot of strides in self-discipline, but is still leagues behind his brother in diligence and work-ethic. This math course was one of the first time that he's been motivated to push himself. So this is definitely a set-back for his budding diligence. I'm pretty mad at Buddy for what he did, but Pal has got to pull it together.

It's been a few days and he hasn't touched math. He claims he no longer wants to be a mathematician, doesn't even find the material that interesting.
He says he's going to work entry-level in fast food all his life and doesn't need or want a degree unless it's in History of Yarn or something "stupid and useless".

What do my fellow parents of AL siblings think?
Is this a sulking fit or is this a deep problem taking root?

Should I do something, if so, what?

Frankly, I've been trapped at home with them too long to be objective. Give me some perspective.

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This kind of thing is tough.

How old are your boys now? I'm thinking maybe pre-teens? Maybe it's in your signature but I can't see it on my phone.

At some point when you are both calm, and maybe over ice-cream or something, I would have a serious talk with Buddy about how hard it is to be the younger sibling of a smart and successful kid. You start out behind, and you basically stay behind because the older kid has a head start. I know your boys are close in age but that just makes it worse. Buddy's brain is more mature than Pal's, Buddy has more experience than Pal, and Pal has been living with that reality ever since he was born. There is no way he hasn't always felt, if only subconsciously, like he is playing an impossible game of catch-up.

I'd do everything in my power to teach Buddy about the kind of leadership and mentoring attitude that seeks to pull others up and encourage them, not tear them down.

For Pal, I'd work primarily on building a growth mindset. I think you do this already with your boys, based on your descriptions of educating them over the years. But if you haven't addressed mindset explicitly the book Mindset is a good read and there are a variety of materials out there directed at kids as well.

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They're both 12ish and this is "7th grade".

There is nothing that I can think of to say to Buddy that we haven't discussed at length before. Unless I decide to go the whole "curse him out and scream his head off" route. That'd be new to him, but it wouldn't be productive, y'know?

We talk about being a kind person and the different forms that kindness can take. Whether it is withholding meanness, being encouraging or using building words, or offering someone a hand. We've also talked about how if you're really mad it's best to just STFU and be still to prevent yourself saying or doing something you'll regret.


Frankly, I'm really mad at Buddy because he knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to be as mean to his brother as he possibly could and to "hit him where it'd really hurt". There is no doubt in my mind that this was a calculated decision on Buddies part.

Pal has always had a flair for the the dramatic. He was the kid who could turn a simple thing into a full-blown production with tears and shrieks. I feel that even now he's being a bit dramatic with the whole "I'll just spend my life doing entry-level fast food work" rhetoric. All that aside, his pain is real. Pal's legitimately devastated that all his hard work didn't pay off.

We've been under quarantine for too long. I'm out of patience for the pair of them. I'm about to go in my room, close the door and stay there until they're 18ish and can move out. 😐

 

 

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What a stinky situation all around.  😞  My oldest ds knew how to push #2's buttons in a way that would make it look like #2 was being a little jerk, but it was really oldest who was the cause of the explosions.   Definitely not a fun parenting position to be in.

It sounds like you have a handle on Buddy, but I wanted to offer something to Pal.  I have had a child 2 yrs younger than an older sibling end up way ahead of that sibling.  My current 5th grader is breathing down the neck of her 9th grade sister.  I don't anticipate her surpassing her older sister, but I do expect her to catch up to her before she graduates.  I wouldn't be surprised if in 8th/12th that they might be in the same math.  (and my 9th grader is no shabby math student.)   

All any student can do is do them.  They need to put blinders on and do the best them they can be.  And those students who do struggle and have to work harder---they have more grit and staying power.  My ds who is my physicsgeek---he isn't the best or the strongest math/physics student out there, but he is determined.  He is severely dyslexic and didn't read on grade level until 5th grade.  He knew how to dig his heels in and fight his weaknesses with intense effort.  Know what?  That is why I think my 10 yr old will never be as strong of a math student as he is.  She is every bit as bright as he is and is doing the same math now that he did at her age.  Everything that girl touches comes easy to her.  I had her start violin 2 yrs ago hoping that it would challenge her.  Even violin comes easy to her.  And unfortunately it means she lacks staying power and grit.  When things get hard, she doesn't dig in  and work hard thinking she will eventually be able to do it.  She starts to whine or give up or loses interest.  It takes me constantly encouraging her to make her face a hard challenge.  With her brother, challenges made him even more determined that he could do it and that he would.

Tell Pal that fighting hard in order to learn what he wants to learn doesnt mean that he doesn't have what it takes.  It means that he has precisely what it takes.   

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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*snipped for privacy***
....Where Pals' innate weakness were focus, discipline, work-ethic--those types of things. I've been so excited for him (and me too!) that this is the year that he was building those types of traits and he was feeling the need to dig deep and pull it out for himself, you know? I mean... all the brains in the world don't mean a thing if he's not got the character to benefit himself or others with his brains, you know?

Well, thanks to Buddy we're now well behind the starting line. >:{ . Pal, being Pal, is going to regress in those traits.

He's so discouraged. He's grown up with me talking about all sorts of "growth mindset" type stuff. I don't even have anything new to try on him, you know? I'm torn on whether to press him to do his math anyway, or if I should let it be for a short time. Math has always been his thing, you know? Buddy enjoys and is very good at math, but Pal has loved math since he was a little boy. He has been saying for 6+ years that he want's to get a phD in mathematics and wants to work on mathematical discoveries and he wants to solve a millenium problem--things like that.

He's truly a math enthusiast and he saw himself as a mathematician. Now, he's just crushed. I've spent years telling him that being good at or intuitive with math isn't good enough--he's got to become diligent, hard-working, etc to truly be successful at the things he loves.

I'd tell them things like "your best effort + your brain will get you any future you want." and now Pal has lost his nerve and he's just...

Well, you guys get it.

 

Edited by Gil
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My oldest was always competitive with the circle around her -- as long as she was the best in the room, she was doing ok.  If she wasn't, she worked harder, but if she was the best, she slacked off. I constantly had to remind her that the world is much larger, and that she will never be the best at something because there are just so many people to compete with!  So stop competing and just do YOUR best and don't worry what other people are doing. And that as long as you enjoy what you do, it doesn't matter if other people are better at it than you are.  

She's 20 and she's finally got it.  Sometimes it just takes time. Lots of time.  

I would be very upset at the oldest though, for sure! I constantly harp on my kids that they should be on each other's team, not working against each other.  But being cooped up is taking a toll on family dynamics! 

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Pal is still sulking mathematically.

He had tried to bow out of his tutoring sessions, but I told him that he has to do them because he already made a commitment to do them and it's super unfair if he quits tutoring with no notice. But aside from the tutoring he hasn't done any math at all. He insists he won't do any math ever again.

I am not sure if I should force the math-issue or not if he doesn't snap out of it on his own.

Pal never had the attention-span to be upset about anything for long, so I"m starting to get a little worried.

 

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18 minutes ago, Not_a_number said:

Can you remind me what Pal was working on? Also, what the question was? 

He was studying Complex Variables, but I don't know the exact question any more. For obvious reasons, I'm not able to go and ask him what the exact problem was.

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Tell him

a). It’s ok not to be a mathematician.  Also he has five years to think about what he wants to do.

b). He needs to finish the tutoring and do his best because you paid for it and you’re not wasting your money or the tutors time.

c).  Just because buddy solves this problem easily doesn’t mean there won’t be another problem that he will solve easily.

Tell Pal that

a) helping people learn involves helping them figure out how to get to the answer not telling them the answer.  
 

b) emotional intelligence is just as important is iq for success 

c) telling his bro the answer is kind of like telling someone the answer to a mystery novel, or a joke or anything else at the wrong time.

 

Typically I’d suggest getting outdoors and doing something physical for a while but pandemics appear to make everything harder.  Maybe some science biographies like Einstein etc where the scientists weren’t doing well and eventually did find or discover something valuable to humanity could help.  Something that shows that science and math is about the struggle not just the solution.  And there’s millions of scientists and mathematicians who never become famous but all their work still contributes to progress in understanding just the same way the guy putting out the hose at the fire ground is only able to do that because the guy back on the truck is keeping the pump working etc.  mathematics isn’t a purely personal endeavour.  It’s a social thing.

Really both the boys are struggling with something.  One with maths (well not struggling exactly given the overall level!) and one with interpersonal skills.  Both need to work hard on one area or another.

 

and yeah... same problems here with middle and youngest child.  Hence the reason I’ve given it thought so much.

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It has helped my kids, who are advanced but not off the charts, to repeat periodically: "Smart is as smart does." 

I've known people I thought were very bright but unkind...and they are not successful humans today. I've known others I thought were even brighter, but they quit when things were hard, and have not reached their goals. 

The meanness concerns me more,  to be honest, in terms of life skills. 

Thanks for all your posts, Gil. They encourage me to be diligent myself. 

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6 hours ago, Gil2.0 said:

He was studying Complex Variables, but I don't know the exact question any more. For obvious reasons, I'm not able to go and ask him what the exact problem was.

Ah. I wish I knew the question, because with some questions, knowing LESS actually means you don’t get confused by all the extra knowledge you’ve achieved. Sometimes, when you learn “too much,” you can’t think simply enough. It doesn’t mean the learning is bad, though.

Ever seen the sequence 3,3,5, 4, 4, 3, 5?   It’s easier for little kids than for mathematicians to find the next number, because they don’t know too much...

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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Tell him

a). It’s ok not to be a mathematician.  Also he has five years to think about what he wants to do.
b). He needs to finish the tutoring and do his best because you paid for it and you’re not wasting your money or the tutors time.

c).  Just because buddy solves this problem easily doesn’t mean there won’t be another problem that he will solve easily.

a) I have tried to remind him that there is more than 1 job in the world and he could be anything he wanted to be or even invent a new job for himself.
He say's that he has decided to work in Entry-Level fast food. All his life.  Because "Waah, woe is me".

Where all that middle ground, between "World Class Mathematician" and "Dead-end job in entry-level fast food", went is beyond me.
He likes coding, he likes drawing, he likes learning and speaking languages, he has a good head for business, and even knows how to cook quite a bit. He likes animals, and loves being outdoors. He wants to travel the world. He is interested in sailing. He plays a lot of sports and has said in the past that he'd consider a career in sports.  It's not like he has 1 and only 1 interest or skill. I mean...geez kid..

b) No, he needs to finish tutoring and do his best because he is the tutor.
People typically hire tutors when they need help. You can't promise to help someone, then break the promise because you don't feel like keeping it.
When you make a deal with someone, you keep your word.
When you agree to help someone, you follow through to the best of your ability.
When you're having a bad day (or month), your customers should never know it.
When you promise someone the time, you give it to them.
When you take someones money, you don't just give it back and say "nah, not feeling it anymore."
Once you sign a contract, it's binding and anyway, you have to remember that the people still need help.

That's now how we conduct ourselves as people in our personal lives and it's a ruinous way to conduct yourself as a businessman.

c) We have talked about having proportionate reactions to situations for years. This is my dramatic kid. He's always been a happy go lucky guy, with the attention span of a Hyper-active gnat for the most part, but when he'd get upset his reactions were usually disproportionate.

If you had asked me a year ago I'd have said that he was making really good progress with it. If you'd asked me about it a couple months ago, I'd have described it as a thing he did for years as a little kid. But now? Well, like I said, it's like he's imploded. All the winds gone out of his little sails. I can't tell how much of this is him being dramatic and how much is him being genuinely upset because like I said, it isn't a loud, shrieking and wailing type of fit.

 

Quote

Tell Pal Buddy that

a) helping people learn involves helping them figure out how to get to the answer not telling them the answer.  

b) emotional intelligence is just as important is iq for success 

c) telling his bro the answer is kind of like telling someone the answer to a mystery novel, or a joke or anything else at the wrong time.
 

a) Buddy already knew that. He wasn't trying to help Pal, he was trying to shut him up. He made a conscious decision to be mean to his younger brother and executed it, consequences be damned.

b) He knows that too. We, as a family,  talk explicitly all.the.time about all the soft-skill habits and traits that any of the healthy, functioning, contributing members of the human race possess (or lack). We (or I? Maybe it's just me. I don't know) take those trait's and subjects very seriously here. We've read and discussed many books on the topics as a family.

c) He knew that already. That's why he did it. He was angry with his brother over something else and decided to hurt him. Buddy had a pretty good idea of what him having the solution that Pal was trying to find/build for a long time would do to him. Initially Buddy was very smug and gloated that he found the solution when he's not even been studying the material.

 

Quote

Typically I’d suggest getting outdoors and doing something physical for a while but pandemics appear to make everything harder.

The annoying (to me) part is we live in the rural country. The yard is huge and there are fields for them to go mess around in. They have yard toys, but why go play peacefully on opposite sides of this big ol' yard when you can stay in your brothers personal space and fight with him? 🙄

I mean...geez.

Quote

 Maybe some science biographies like Einstein etc where the scientists weren’t doing well and eventually did find or discover something valuable to humanity could help.  Something that shows that science and math is about the struggle not just the solution.  And there’s millions of scientists and mathematicians who never become famous but all their work still contributes to progress in understanding just the same way the guy putting out the hose at the fire ground is only able to do that because the guy back on the truck is keeping the pump working etc.  mathematics isn’t a purely personal endeavour.  It’s a social thing.

Meh, he has read 100s of biographies. (It was a big project for us a couple of years ago) I think that I will just let it go for a few weeks at least. This evening I will have him pick a new topic for AS and try to just move on with life. We'll come back around to it when I'm less exhausted by this whole situation.

 

Quote

Really both the boys are struggling with something.  One with maths (well not struggling exactly given the overall level!) and one with interpersonal skills.  Both need to work hard on one area or another.

Hey...what about me? What about my suffering? XD
I am struggling too! Where is my sympathy!? I'm the one who has to stand here and sort out all this nonsense that they create for themselves.

 

Quote

and yeah... same problems here with middle and youngest child.  Hence the reason I’ve given it thought so much.

I keep trying to think of something to console you, but every time I come up with something, I realize that this can go on for decades. So I guess I'll just do the deep sign and say "Hang in there, Ausmomof3. Eventually they'll be old enough that you can move to an undisclosed location without it being considered criminal neglect or abandonment."

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4 minutes ago, Gil2.0 said:

a) I have tried to remind him that there is more than 1 job in the world and he could be anything he wanted to be or even invent a new job for himself.
He say's that he has decided to work in Entry-Level fast food. All his life.  Because "Waah, woe is me".

Where all that middle ground, between "World Class Mathematician" and "Dead-end job in entry-level fast food", went is beyond me.
He likes coding, he likes drawing, he likes learning and speaking languages, he has a good head for business, and even knows how to cook quite a bit. He likes animals, and loves being outdoors. He wants to travel the world. He is interested in sailing. He plays a lot of sports and has said in the past that he'd consider a career in sports.  It's not like he has 1 and only 1 interest or skill. I mean...geez kid..

b) No, he needs to finish tutoring and do his best because he is the tutor.
People typically hire tutors when they need help. You can't promise to help someone, then break the promise because you don't feel like keeping it.
When you make a deal with someone, you keep your word.
When you agree to help someone, you follow through to the best of your ability.
When you're having a bad day (or month), your customers should never know it.
When you promise someone the time, you give it to them.
When you take someones money, you don't just give it back and say "nah, not feeling it anymore."
Once you sign a contract, it's binding and anyway, you have to remember that the people still need help.

That's now how we conduct ourselves as people in our personal lives and it's a ruinous way to conduct yourself as a businessman.

c) We have talked about having proportionate reactions to situations for years. This is my dramatic kid. He's always been a happy go lucky guy, with the attention span of a Hyper-active gnat for the most part, but when he'd get upset his reactions were usually disproportionate.

If you had asked me a year ago I'd have said that he was making really good progress with it. If you'd asked me about it a couple months ago, I'd have described it as a thing he did for years as a little kid. But now? Well, like I said, it's like he's imploded. All the winds gone out of his little sails. I can't tell how much of this is him being dramatic and how much is him being genuinely upset because like I said, it isn't a loud, shrieking and wailing type of fit.

 

a) Buddy already knew that. He wasn't trying to help Pal, he was trying to shut him up. He made a conscious decision to be mean to his younger brother and executed it, consequences be damned.

b) He knows that too. We, as a family,  talk explicitly all.the.time about all the soft-skill habits and traits that any of the healthy, functioning, contributing members of the human race possess (or lack). We (or I? Maybe it's just me. I don't know) take those trait's and subjects very seriously here. We've read and discussed many books on the topics as a family.

c) He knew that already. That's why he did it. He was angry with his brother over something else and decided to hurt him. Buddy had a pretty good idea of what him having the solution that Pal was trying to find/build for a long time would do to him. Initially Buddy was very smug and gloated that he found the solution when he's not even been studying the material.

 

The annoying (to me) part is we live in the rural country. The yard is huge and there are fields for them to go mess around in. They have yard toys, but why go play peacefully on opposite sides of this big ol' yard when you can stay in your brothers personal space and fight with him? 🙄

I mean...geez.

Meh, he has read 100s of biographies. (It was a big project for us a couple of years ago) I think that I will just let it go for a few weeks at least. This evening I will have him pick a new topic for AS and try to just move on with life. We'll come back around to it when I'm less exhausted by this whole situation.

 

Hey...what about me? What about my suffering? XD
I am struggling too! Where is my sympathy!? I'm the one who has to stand here and sort out all this nonsense that they create for themselves.

 

I keep trying to think of something to console you, but every time I come up with something, I realize that this can go on for decades. So I guess I'll just do the deep sign and say "Hang in there, Ausmomof3. Eventually they'll be old enough that you can move to an undisclosed location without it being considered criminal neglect or abandonment."

lol I don’t know how to laugh and cry at your reply cause it’s all so true!  Oops sorry that I missed that he was the one doing the tutoring not being tutored!  Also did you say he was 12?  Maybe it’s just a preteen thing!  

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12 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

lol I don’t know how to laugh and cry at your reply cause it’s all so true!  Oops sorry that I missed that he was the one doing the tutoring not being tutored!  Also did you say he was 12?  Maybe it’s just a preteen thing!  

Maybe. Perhaps there is something in the water because I honestly don't feel that my generation was dramatic when we were this age. It was more 15-18 that I remember as The Drama Years when I was young.

Is that selective amnesia on my part? I know the culture is very different now but this latest generation seems...prematurely dramatic to me.

 

 

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So far all my kids have gone through a rough patch in that early puberty stage.

My oldest two have grown past it and left most of the drama behind. My current twelve year old is still in the middle of it.

Probably it won't hurt Pal to just do tutoring for now for math. I'd try to keep as much physical activity as possible in his life and avoid lots of screen time (pretty sure you already do that) but as far as the drama and rejection of ambition go you may just have to wait for more maturity to do its thing.

I'm always impressed by how you work with and parent your boys.

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I’m just responding to the over dramatic response part in your long post above, but am not going to attempt to quote it here. My son was quite similar (although not easy going like yours) and we had one major incident when he was in sixth grade. I think it might have been triggered by a combination of puberty and adjusting to attending public school for the first time (that experience only lasted a semester). He had been excelling at traditional karate for almost five years at that point. He was very used to being constantly corrected and belt testing at this dojo happened very rarely, so extremely high standards and  slow progress were the absolute norm. While one day at practice after a long day ay school, his sensei corrected him and that was it. He came home and said he was quitting karate forever. We tried reasoning, letting it blow over, talking it out, etc. But nothing worked and ultimately we allowed him to quit with the caveats that he talk to his sensei and choose a different sport, as regular exercise was so important and easier to ensure with an only if doing a sport. He chose swimming for a very, very low-key team at the Y. He didn’t like it very much, but ended up doing it for 1 1/2 years before he decided to return to karate. By that time he was no longer attending school and he was really missing karate. He went and talked to his sensei who very warmly welcomed him back. It was a huge part of his life for the next five years, including tons of leadership opportunities like teaching classes and attending select camps at the Olympic Training Center. And he earned his black belt before he went to college, only the third person in the twenty year history of his dojo to do so and the only teen. And he did develop another strong non-sport interest during his time away from karate that was also a big, rewarding part of his life during high school.

All of this to say that your son may just need time and lots of it and maturity to get back to his love of math. And maybe there other other outside contributing factors (puberty? life changes due to pandemic? other?). I agree that he needs to keep his tutoring commitment. But as he is so very advanced in math, I would just let it go until he wants to pursue it again. I know it’s very tough as a parent to see them turn their back on something they loved so much.

Edited by Frances
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You might consider some therapy for your sons, from an outside therapist.  Someone who can teach both of them coping skills to manage their emotions and preserve family harmony.  I only suggest this because it sounds like you are an amazing parent, and maybe your kids just need to hear advice from someone else, with a thought toward managing behavior and emotions.  

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