Learning Foreign Languages Thread - September

[Momto6inIN]

6 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

I'm struggling to find info on Visual Link Spanish. Their website seems to indicate that it is only for Windows computers? We have a Mac... 

I have Windows, and know nothing about Macs. Sorry!

6 hours ago, klmama said:

It could be that you had a good accent, despite having grammar and vocabulary errors, and that made it easy to understand you.  I've met a number of native speakers who looked at accent as the measure of speaking both good Spanish and good English.  After all, if it's impossible to understand someone because their pronunciation is so off, then they aren't communicating well, no matter how "correctly" they form their sentences.

That might be it! I specifically remember one man saying I had a good accent.

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Penguin said:

Wow, I am super happy to read through this conversation!

@Quill It took me a long time to feel this way, but now I cherish my mistakes. Especially if I became terribly embarrassed. Because I typically then never make that particular mistake again. I was shamed by a train conductor in Denmark when I used the wrong gender for a lid. I was asking for a lid for my coffee, and she gave me a smack down. It was forever seared in my memory that a lid is et låg not en låg. Not deferring to your daughter is a tough one. I would have the same problem. 

@Pen A common suggestion is that you use a book you already know, or one that you can also have available in English.  Are you going to return to Portuguese? Or take up a different language? I don't know how easy it is to get Portuguese books in the USA. That's another issue! Some older children's books that are available in MANY languages are the Harry Potter Books, Astrid Lindgren (Pippi or Ronja seem relatively easy to find), The Hobbit, and The Little Prince. Maybe the Little House Books.  Winnie the Pooh. These are off the top of my head.

 

The discussion on the book thread got me interested in possibly reviewing some Portuguese. And it is the original language for The Alchemist and available in Portuguese on Amazon.  

If my son weren’t reading The Alchemist I probably would not have thought of that.  

Or might have thought of something by Jorge Amado. Or perhaps a Harry Potter type book. 

 

 

Spanish appeals for greater usefulness and opportunities in my area. 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, klmama said:

It could be that you had a good accent, despite having grammar and vocabulary errors, and that made it easy to understand you.  I've met a number of native speakers who looked at accent as the measure of speaking both good Spanish and good English.  After all, if it's impossible to understand someone because their pronunciation is so off, then they aren't communicating well, no matter how "correctly" they form their sentences.

This.  Some of the Spanish speaking members at church, have good English - but very thick accents and it's hard to understand their English.  My ex-sil has a somewhat heavy accent.  When 2dd came back from Chile  she said "I can understand P___!"  (as in, she could understand her English.  Ex-sil has a good command of English, but very accented.)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Does that French speaking part of Canada have the stereotypical Canadian politeness?  That seems like it could be a safe option

I can't speak to attitudes, but Canadian French is sooooo hard to understand!  🤣 There is a nurse shortage in Switzerland, so we have quite a few French and Canadian nurses.  I'm forever asking Canadian nurses to repeat themselves.  Even my DH, a native French speaker, struggles with the Canadian accent.  

 

One thing that makes me laugh:  I've stayed in contact with my high school French teacher (American) and we get together any time I visit my family in the US.  I can remember once upon a time admiring her beautiful accent when she spoke French in class, and trying so hard to imitate it.  Now, when I hear her speak French, it sounds almost like nails on a chalkboard.  Her grammar is perfect... but the American accent!!!  Sooooo strong.   It's funny how perspective can change.  

[Little Green Leaves]

15 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

The only time I ever needed to use my very low level French was when I was working in Southern France for a month. Not one person was rude about it. I didn’t encounter a ton of English speakers, so most people were patient and kind while I communicated with them. 

It’s the language of poetry!  I would love for someone to come up with an Arabic course centered around music; specifically Oum Kalthoum songs. She’s SO clear. 

Oum Kalthoum is amazing. Thank you for reminding me about her...I found a version of Enta Omri with subtitles. 

[Penguin]

21 hours ago, Dobby's Sock said:

@Penguin I'm mostly Danish with a bit of Swiss and German thrown in.  I have a lot of vintage Danish books from the early 1900s (leather bound and everything) that I would like to be able to read since I have no idea what I bought 🙂

Ooh, I would love to know some of the titles. You probably know this already, but Danish had a major orthography revision in the late 1940s. The main changes were (1) to stop capitalizing common nouns and (2) to change from aa to å. Some place names retained the aa. Aalborg is an example.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Penguin

[wintermom]

8 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

I can't speak to attitudes, but Canadian French is sooooo hard to understand!  🤣 There is a nurse shortage in Switzerland, so we have quite a few French and Canadian nurses.  I'm forever asking Canadian nurses to repeat themselves.  Even my DH, a native French speaker, struggles with the Canadian accent.  

 

One thing that makes me laugh:  I've stayed in contact with my high school French teacher (American) and we get together any time I visit my family in the US.  I can remember once upon a time admiring her beautiful accent when she spoke French in class, and trying so hard to imitate it.  Now, when I hear her speak French, it sounds almost like nails on a chalkboard.  Her grammar is perfect... but the American accent!!!  Sooooo strong.   It's funny how perspective can change.  

I live right beside Quebec and hear a lot of quebecois. I find that strong nasal sound and chopping off so many words hard to listen to, and I keep wanting to say, "Pronounce your words, please." 😉 Some parts of Quebec have clearer speakers in general, though, such as Quebec City.  Federal Government contractors who teach French to civil servants are all from France. Soooo much easier to learn with that nice, clear accent. 

[wintermom]

16 hours ago, Penguin said:

 

@wintermom To me, Norwegian looks like Danish with typos, lol. I imagine the reverse is true for you! I just bought myself an old,  beat-up copy of a Norwegian textbook (Norsk, nordmenn og Norge 1: Textbook for Beginning Norwegian) so I could puzzle through the differences. I don't see any reason why I can't learn to read Norwegian with relative ease. I like this book because it is all in Norwegian and it is visually very old-school. But I don't really know what to recommend to you for Danish. I learned Danish while living in Denmark, and while I own a ton of stuff much of it is only sold from Denmark. You are not a beginner. What do you feel like you are lacking? Listening practice? Reading materials? Maybe I can point you to something useful. 

 

I'm lacking people to speak Norwegian with to keep up fluency. The best thing, of course, would be to go for a visit. Perhaps I'll see if any family or friends there would be willing to skype with me once in a while. 

Careful with your Norwegian reading as there are actually 2 official languages in Norway that read quite differently; bokmål and nynorsk. Your norsk textbook is most likely bokmål, which is the language spoken in Oslo and the central regions of Norway.  I studied bokmål at university in Canada and then visited Bergen on the west coast. I just about cried as I didn't understand a thing people said. Completely different dialect, and they wrote nynorsk.

I went on to live and work at a folk high school in Norway for 4 years, and was immersed in Norwegian and Danish speakers from all over. I got really good at understanding the different dialects, and Danish just seemed like another dialect. The Norwegians are fiercely proud of their west coast and northern dialects and intentionally speak in their dialects, even though it gets a little challenging for other Norwegians to understand them. Even on modern Norwegian TV series, there are actors using dialects from west coast, up north, and the more common central regions. Quite different from US TV, where most actors cover up their local dialect.

Edited September 20, 2020 by wintermom

[wintermom]

15 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

I did some Duo French a couple years ago, didn't get too far.  (enough to realize some of the British spellings that made no sense to me - were actually French constructs.  e.g. "re" when it makes a "er" sound.)  My daughters also had 6 & 7 years of French in school.   

So, I kinda sorta still pay some curiosity to French. I happened across this  youtube vid of the differences between quebequios and metropolitan French.  Part of it was that Quebec was settled prior to the French Revolution.

That's true about Canadian spellings as well, as we use British spellings and pronounce z like 'zed' instead of 'zee.' If you drive to any Canadian city and want to go downtown, look for signs that say 'city centre.' 😉  It's because of our English and not our French roots. 

That was a great youtube clip. Notice when he mentioned that "le weekend" was not used in Quebec because of the local regulations. I think some of the reasons quebecois has remained unique is intentional and political. There are French language police in Quebec and they are very serious and powerful about regulating French language in the province. 

Also, read the comments after the video, as there are various quebekers saying the accent presented in the video were quite exaggerated. And one lone Acadian who mentioned the guy completely missed this French Canadian dialect. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by wintermom

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

Oum Kalthoum is amazing. Thank you for reminding me about her...I found a version of Enta Omri with subtitles. 

Coincidentally, name-wise, I also love Oum from Morocco. Her voice is amazing and her Arabic is so clear. She sings in English and French too and does a lot of mixed language songs. 

 

[gardenmom5]

23 minutes ago, wintermom said:

That's true about Canadian spellings as well, as we use British spellings and pronounce z like 'zed' instead of 'zee.' If you drive to any Canadian city and want to go downtown, look for signs that say 'city centre.' 😉  It's because of our English and not our French roots. 

That was a great youtube clip. Notice when he mentioned that "le weekend" was not used in Quebec because of the local regulations. I think some of the reasons quebecois has remained unique is intentional and political. There are French language police in Quebec and they are very serious and powerful about regulating French language in the province. 

Also, read the comments after the video, as there are various quebekers saying the accent presented in the video were quite exaggerated. And one lone Acadian who mentioned the guy completely missed this French Canadian dialect. 

I've been to Canada many times.  Mostly environs around Vancouver, and Victoria.   But also further up Vancouver Island.    I prefer crossing at Tswassen vs the WA State Ferry. (which is more convenient.)  I would recommend the Vancouver aquarium vs the Seattle aquarium any day.  Seattle's is seriously over rated.

There are other videos that compare French and Quebecios.  I had one about "American accents" (by an Australian) pop up yesterday.  They missed the very divergent ones.  Cajun; some of the outer islands in the Carolinas;  New Braunfels TX - kept the settler's German alive, though it is different than German spoken in Germany.  Those are just a few.

I've heard about the "French language police", especially towards those who aren't Quebecois.   My niece who lives in Germany has experienced something similar.  She's fluent in German, her dh is fluent in German (it's their common language) and she had a German speaking nanny - but they were treated as non-German speakers by the gov't and subject to different rules (especially with their kids in school) than native Germans.  Their teen dd can't wait to turn 18 and leave. She wants to move to the US. (She has an American passport.  The mom has to have been in Germany for a minimum of eight years to have a child be granted a German Passport.)

(My dd had a friend whose father's family were German settlers in the Midwest.  they kept all their German - until WWI. Then they dropped all the signs, they anglicized their names, etc.   German POWs were sent there during WWII to use as farm labor.  The farmers spoke German and English.  There was one higher ranking German who realized they were going to lose because of how long it took to get there from where their ship landed on the coast.  Germany is smaller than France - which is still smaller than *just* Texas.)

[Hunter]

20 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

I'm struggling to find info on Visual Link Spanish. Their website seems to indicate that it is only for Windows computers? We have a Mac... 

I wouldn't try to use Visual Link on anything but Windows. It is an old program that I expect to stop working with any update. It doesn't fill the screen and is very hard on my eyes, even on a large screen.

I am learning Spanish, and I have learned that some Spanish speakers have issues concerning appropriation when non-native speakers dare to speak "their: language. No one ever warned me about this, until I took a Latinx class in college and I was shocked at what happened and what I was told in that class. 

I am living in an area of the USA where Spanish is THE language. Sometimes English is not offered as a back up on signs. Grocery shopping at the majority of supermarkets is predominantly in Spanish, even credit card payments. If I dare use the deli and bakery, the person behind the counter may or may not understand "1/4 pound" in English. I got 3/4 pounds and was thankful that at least I walked away with some meat. This is their world, not mine. And I often don't even try to speak Spanish, because I worry that trying is offensive to some of my new neighbors. I am quietly studying so I can be more aware of what is going on around me and so that I can increase my access to certain kinds of food. But I am just trying to be as polite as possible right now until I get more of a read on my neighbors.

Not everyone is Spanish, here. The English-speakers are mostly African-American, have cars,  and do a lot of their shopping outside this neighborhood. They laugh at me, and ask me why I am here, and if I am scared, and stuff like that. There is an older veteran that does not work and sits outside most of the day, and I have become his entertainment, as I try and make a life for myself here.

I had to put my Spanish aside for a couple weeks while I tackled a major computer project, but Spanish is my main focus for the next few weeks. I am using a bit of everything, including some stuff for kids, especially Muzzy, Dinolingo (the dinosaur program not the duolingo app), and youtube videos of people reading aloud bilingual Dr. Suess books. My college textbook and the website that I still have access to till January and the Great Courses Spanish, Pimsleur, Michael Thomas, Spanish with Paul, Visual Link, Earworms, La Biblia en Espanol Sencillo which is based off Ogden's Bible in Basic English, finishing up Getting Started with Spanish, youtube youtube youtube.

[Penguin]

Really nice to see you here, @Hunter 🙂 

[Penguin]

@wintermom Yes, my text is bokmål. If I recall correctly, nynorsk came about as a way to de-Danishify (yes, I made that up) Norwegian. I’m content with being able to read Norwegian. It is *so* close to Danish, and Norwegian literature has a lot to tempt me.

[Matryoshka]

Hi everyone!  What a fun thread, thanks, Penguin!  I've been busy stacking cordwood and moving dd19 into a new apartment the past few days, so I'm just dipping my toe in now. 🙂

I am fluent in Spanish and German, both of which my mom (who speaks them both as well) started teaching me young - German at about 8, and Spanish at 12.  I've also spent time living abroad in full-immersion mode (no one to speak English to).   It's definitely good to do that young, as at that age I just dove in and didn't worry about embarrassing myself making mistakes. For the person who said someone thought a person was fluent who made grammatical errors and hypothesized that it was having a good accent - YES.  When I teach languages, I put a lot of emphasis on correct accent/pronunciation - because if you have a good accent, everyone will think you're fluent no matter how many errors you make, and if you don't, they'll always think of you as a language learner even when your grammar is perfect.  This happens to me with French, which I don't speak, but I can pull off phrases with an accent that apparently non-French speakers shouldn't have.  I can say je ne parle pas français (which I probably just spelled wrong), and people will start answering me in rapid French.  Uh, I just said I can't speak French...  I can read French okay-ish, since I hired a tutor to explain how the pronunciation rules work and I got a handle on some of the more common words that aren't as easy to correspond to Spanish.  I can read a computer manual in French no problem after spending years working in software localization (that's why I was working on my French skills...), and I've read a couple of books in French (Charlotte's Web and The Stranger).  I still have almost no output ability, though, and auditory comprehension is lower than it is for Portuguese or Italian, which ironically I can't read as well.  I think if I just spent some time figuring out things like I did with French, I'd probably get even more bang for my buck.  I've found for some weird reason that I understand (aurally) more and more Italian, like in foreign films.  Pen is making me want to learn more Portuguese!  I am thinking of playing with it on Duolingo to start... I wish the other Germanic languages were as close to German as all the Latin languages are.  I'm wondering if maybe someday I should try to figure out Danish or Norwegian, since it almost sounds like a twofer, lol. 

I'd also really like to learn Chinese.  I was supposed to take a trip to China back in my 20s, and I hired a tutor to teach me enough Chinese to pay for things and find, say, the bathroom or a train station.  But I didn't get far as the trip had to be cancelled due to Tiananmen Square.  I learned just enough to be fascinated.  I'm sure I'll never be fluent or be able to read much of anything, but I'd love to get some basic conversational skills and be able to read/write some number of characters.

[wintermom]

48 minutes ago, Penguin said:

@wintermom Yes, my text is bokmål. If I recall correctly, nynorsk came about as a way to de-Danishify (yes, I made that up) Norwegian. I’m content with being able to read Norwegian. It is *so* close to Danish, and Norwegian literature has a lot to tempt me.

I think the PC expression would be to 'promote the uniquely Norwegian language and heritage' rather then de-Danishify a language. 😉  I learned that nynorsk was created by a linguist who travelled all around the west coast and northern areas to try and create a language that included aspects of these dialects. There is a Nynorsk Theatre in Oslo, and subtitles on TV are often in nynorsk rather than bokmål. I never came across people who actually spoke it, though. They would speak their local dialect and write in nynorsk.

I'm sure you'll have little trouble picking up written bokmål. Reading Swedish is a lot harder as there are more differences in writing and vocabulary.

[Penguin]

@wintermom yikes I apologize if I offended. Do you think it correct to say that the introduction of  nynorsk was due to a desire to have a language that was further removed from its former union with Denmark? That was my understanding, but maybe I am wrong. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Penguin

[Pen]

20 hours ago, maize said:

Audible's free-for-the-pandemic streaming website has Spanish, French, Dutch, German, Italian, Portuguese, and Japanese audiobooks:

https://stories.audible.com/start-listen

 

I just tried a couple and they are going way too fast for me to follow story at all.  But hearing the sound is probably good anyway. 

 

Lately I have been having some auditory troubles with some English books too.  On the current Peter Diamond I am listening to with regard to a skeleton I thought I heard that it might be “bone ash” and was trying to understand what that signified. Then I realized it was a name “Beau Nash” possibly known by British and more clear, but not recognized by me. And another name “Gerry or Jerry “ sounded to me like “jelly.”   But I am far more lost than that in the foreign language audios.   Sort of the opposite, I am catching a little and missing most, instead of catching most and getting confused by a little. 

 

ETA: I did better with the start of Harry Potter in Spanish than some unfamiliar Portuguese little children’s book probably due to familiarity with story .  Maybe it’s like I didn’t think Jane Austen was Jay Nostin because I can recognize name.    Maybe I should try to find O Toro Ferdinando - something easy and where I also know story well.  

Edited September 20, 2020 by Pen

[maize]

53 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I just tried a couple and they are going way too fast for me to follow story at all.  But hearing the sound is probably good anyway. 

 

Lately I have been having some auditory troubles with some English books too.  On the current Peter Diamond I am listening to with regard to a skeleton I thought I heard that it might be “bone ash” and was trying to understand what that signified. Then I realized it was a name “Beau Nash” possibly known by British and more clear, but not recognized by me. And another name “Gerry or Jerry “ sounded to me like “jelly.”   But I am far more lost than that in the foreign language audios.   Sort of the opposite, I am catching a little and missing most, instead of catching most and getting confused by a little. 

 

ETA: I did better with the start of Harry Potter in Spanish than some unfamiliar Portuguese little children’s book probably due to familiarity with story .  Maybe it’s like I didn’t think Jane Austen was Jay Nostin because I can recognize name.    Maybe I should try to find O Toro Ferdinando - something easy and where I also know story well.  

I much prefer to listen to books I am already familiar with in English unless I am functionally fluent in the language I am listening to.

The streaming service doesn't seem to have an option to decrease the speed but if you buy a book from Audible and use their app you can slow it down; I do that for some books (I also habitually speed up books I am listening to in English).

I've been listening to Harry Potter in Japanese 🙂

[Hunter]

I don't worry about looking stupid and being mocked for my lack of ability. I worry about offending the people who claim that I am stealing what is theirs. Latinx class was enlightening to what some Spanish speakers think about outsiders and their responsibility to remain "silent" and their expected subservient role in any joint activities.

All my neighbors have been clear that they think I do not belong here. Some do not mind, and some are amused, but they all agree that I don't belong.

I am aiming for respect to a culture that is not mine and that I have not been invited to join. Just because I have no other place to go, does not mean the locals appreciate me landing in their space. I am a stray puppy.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Hunter said:

I don't worry about looking stupid and being mocked for my lack of ability. I worry about offending the people who claim that I am stealing what is theirs. Latinx class was enlightening to what some Spanish speakers think about outsiders and their responsibility to remain "silent" and their expected subservient role in any joint activities.

All my neighbors have been clear that they think I do not belong here. Some do not mind, and some are amused, but they all agree that I don't belong.

I am aiming for respect to a culture that is not mine and that I have not been invited to join. Just because I have no other place to go, does not mean the locals appreciate me landing in their space. I am a stray puppy.

You've got me very curious where you live.

My ex-sil didn't like Miami because of all the Cubans - She's Columbian, and yes she faced discrimination from them.  There was also a lot of expectation she was illegal and people would come up to her on the street with offers of getting her various services and legit, etc.  She came from a wealthy family in Columbia, and she had a green card to work in the US (but had gone back to living in Columbia) before she ever met my brother.  

[wintermom]

19 hours ago, Penguin said:

@wintermom yikes I apologize if I offended. Do you think it correct to say that the introduction of  nynorsk was due to a desire to have a language that was further removed from its former union with Denmark? That was my understanding, but maybe I am wrong. 

I'm not familiar enough with the history. My sense is that Norway is happier with the Danes than the Swedes. As long as their language isn't Swedish, they're good. That is only my perception, though, and not based on any literature. I never discussed the place of nynorsk in Norwegian culture with any Norwegians while living there. Sounds strange, when I lived there for 4 years. 

Norway was also under Swedish rule, and it had a not-positive relationship with Sweden in WWII. I got the sense that Sweden was like the "Big Brother" they resented. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by wintermom

[wintermom]

HELP: Spanish speakers!

What is the difference between the two different verbs 'to be' - ser and estar?  I am so confused. Are there any clear, simple rules about when to use one and when to use the other?

[Matryoshka]

12 minutes ago, wintermom said:

HELP: Spanish speakers!

What is the difference between the two different verbs 'to be' - ser and estar?  I am so confused. Are there any clear, simple rules about when to use one and when to use the other?

There are rules... but they're not always clear and simple to English speakers. 😏

Ser - used when you're describing something's nature, its essence.

Estar - used for location, or mood, things that are transient.

Things like color are considered something's nature, even if you can paint it or color it over.  So, hair color even if it's a dye job uses 'ser'.  This used to bug me when I was learning Spanish, lol, as it was explained to me as 'temporary' vs 'permanent', but it's more nuanced than that, and sometimes, just don't overthink it!

For traits/moods, using ser vs. estar can change the meaning rather significantly.  Ser is for traits, Estar is for moods.

Ella está aburrida - She is bored
Ella es aburrida - She is boring (as in, a boring person).

Pepe está enfermo - Pepe is sick.
Pepe es enfermo - Pepe is sickly (a sickly person).

Elena está lista - Elena is ready (to go, for example).
Elena es lista - Elena is clever.

I found this site, it goes into more details and seems to do a decent job explaining it.

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Matryoshka

[alisoncooks]

Quick and easy reference: 

How you feel and where you are, that is when you use ESTAR. 

ETA: ah, apparently there's a 2nd verse for SER. https://carla.umn.edu/strategies/sp_grammar/strategies/form/serandestar/whentouseestar.html

Edited September 21, 2020 by alisoncooks

[wintermom]

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

There are rules... but they're not always clear and simple to English speakers. 😏

Ser - used when you're describing something's nature, its essence.

Estar - used for location, or mood, things that are transient.

Things like color are considered something's nature, even if you can paint it or color it over.  So, hair color even if it's a dye job uses 'ser'.  This used to bug me when I was learning Spanish, lol, as it was explained to me as 'temporary' vs 'permanent', but it's more nuanced than that, and sometimes, just don't overthink it!

For traits/moods, using ser vs. estar can change the meaning rather significantly.  Ser is for traits, Estar is for moods.

Ella está aburrida - She is bored
Ella es aburrida - She is boring (as in, a boring person).

Pepe está enfermo - Pepe is sick.
Pepe es enfermo - Pepe is sickly (a sickly person).

Elena está lista - Elena is ready (to go, for example).
Elena es lista - Elena is clever.

I found this site, it goes into more details and seems to do a decent job explaining it.

 

Thank you so much! This is very helpful. 

[Ausmumof3]

well here’s an interesting approach to learning a foreign language 😆😆

[Little Green Leaves]

In case any French language learners are interested -- we've been watching episodes of "Maigret," with Bruno Cremer. It's a show made in the 90s and set in the 50s,  based on the detective books by Georges Simenon. I love those books, so I am probably biased for the show, but it's also really good for practicing French -- there's lots and lots of dialogue, and the actors speak very very clearly.

Editing to say that I wouldn't watch the show with kids. It's got a lot of adult material -- presented in a very restrained way, but still.

@PenguinI would love to hear more about Norwegian literature. I love Knut Hamsun but beyond him and Ibsen, I don't know anyone. So interesting to see the discussion here about how the language changed over time.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[gardenmom5]

On 9/21/2020 at 7:22 AM, wintermom said:

I'm not familiar enough with the history. My sense is that Norway is happier with the Danes than the Swedes. As long as their language isn't Swedish, they're good. That is only my perception, though, and not based on any literature. I never discussed the place of nynorsk in Norwegian culture with any Norwegians while living there. Sounds strange, when I lived there for 4 years. 

Norway was also under Swedish rule, and it had a not-positive relationship with Sweden in WWII. I got the sense that Sweden was like the "Big Brother" they resented. 

When I was growing up, we had Swedish neighbors.  The dad came here to work for Boeing, and the rest of the family would go visit relatives every summer.  After he died from cancer, they moved back to Sweden.   Yeah- the Sweds and the Norwegians don't like each other.  I got that from my Swedish friends. (notably the son.) 

Neither do the Swiss and the Germans. (My Germany printed college German textbook did NOT have Switzerland on its European map.  Liechtenstein was on it, so it's not about size.  My last German teacher was often over there, and had called to make reservations at a hotel/hostel/something in Switzerland.  You have to show your passport when you check in.  "You're an American!  we thought you were a German.  We'll get you a better room. . . . ")  Dh lived in different parts of Austria for two years, the Veinner's and the Tyrolians  didn't like each other either. . . .

we have some friends that were working with SE Asian refugees in the 80s.  They had similar issues.

[wintermom]

52 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

When I was growing up, we had Swedish neighbors.  The dad came here to work for Boeing, and the rest of the family would go visit relatives every summer.  After he died from cancer, they moved back to Sweden.   Yeah- the Sweds and the Norwegians don't like each other.  I got that from my Swedish friends. (notably the son.) 

Neither do the Swiss and the Germans. (My Germany printed college German textbook did NOT have Switzerland on its European map.  Liechtenstein was on it, so it's not about size.  My last German teacher was often over there, and had called to make reservations at a hotel/hostel/something in Switzerland.  You have to show your passport when you check in.  "You're an American!  we thought you were a German.  We'll get you a better room. . . . ")  Dh lived in different parts of Austria for two years, the Veinner's and the Tyrolians  didn't like each other either. . . .

we have some friends that were working with SE Asian refugees in the 80s.  They had similar issues.

My Swedish grandmother and her Norwegian husband somehow found a way to make peace. 😄 Like most neighbouring countries, states, provinces, counties and cities, there are always going to be some tensions and finger pointing at poor behaviour, but most people usually learn to live peacefully in close proximity.    

[Penguin]

6 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

 

@PenguinI would love to hear more about Norwegian literature. I love Knut Hamsun but beyond him and Ibsen, I don't know anyone. So interesting to see the discussion here about how the language changed over time.

I think you might like Sigrid Undset (1882-1949). She won the Nobel Prize in 1928, and her most read work is the Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy. A number of BaW posters have read it.  Undset converted to Catholicism at a time when there were very few Catholics in Norway, and an exploration of Christianity in 14th century Norway is at the core of the trilogy. The first book is The Wreath. The newer translation by Tiina Nunnally is the one I recommend.

I am over-the-moon excited that a new Nunnally translation of another Sigrid Undset trilogy (Vows, Volume 1) is about to be released. These books are still too hard for me to read in Danish, let alone Norwegian. Sigh. Someday. 

I also love The Alberta Trilogy by Coral Sandel (1880-1974). The first book is Alberta and Jacob (transl. Elizabeth Rokkan). I think these are underappreciated classics. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Penguin

[Little Green Leaves]

1 hour ago, Penguin said:

I think you might like Sigrid Undset (1882-1949). She won the Nobel Prize in 1928, and her most read work is the Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy. A number of BaW posters have read it.  Undset converted to Catholicism at a time when there were very few Catholics in Norway, and an exploration of Christianity in 14th century Norway is at the core of the trilogy. The first book is The Wreath. The newer translation by Tiina Nunnally is the one I recommend.

I am over-the-moon excited that a new Nunnally translation of another Sigrid Undset trilogy (Vows, Volume 1) is about to be released. These books are still too hard for me to read in Danish, let alone Norwegian. Sigh. Someday. 

I also love The Alberta Trilogy by Coral Sandel (1880-1974). The first book is Alberta and Jacob (transl. Elizabeth Rokkan). I think these are underappreciated classics. 

These look so good! Thank you!

[Matryoshka]

@Dreamergal, do you think Hindi would be hard for an English-speaker to learn?  I am intimidated by non-Latin writing systems (weirdly, moreso by other phonetic ones than pictographic ones like Chinese...).  My dd's girlfriend is Hindi-speaking (although she said her parents spoke English at home first so she'd have an easier time later in school), and I've been thinking maybe I should learn some.  A lot of the other Indians I know around here are Tamil speaking.  At least Hindi is Indo-European... what's the hardest part about it (for example, I'd say for the languages I speak, Spanish it's all the billions of verb conjugations and all the subjunctive, German it's the cases plus the random assignation of gender to nouns, English is my native tongue but I'd guess the random spelling, idioms, and maybe all the phrasal verbs and that we pretend we don't have).

[Loesje22000]

I like the idea of this thread.

Dutch is my native language, and I am not working on a  foreign language specifically for the moment. I don’t know were to start as my English is ‘somewhere in the middle’, and my French and German are just good enough to communicate I don’t speak / understand the language well.

As I don’t learn easily, it should be something I can actually use.

[cintinative]

On 9/19/2020 at 3:44 AM, gardenmom5 said:

working on spanish.  I focus on a visual/action/feeling for each word - not what the english word is.   I've been doing duolingo since January, not quite halfway through level four (there are seven levels for spanish.)  I'm attending a spanish speaking branch at church - so capable of communication is a must.    I can kinda/sorta/sometimes follow and get the gist - but certainly don't catch all words.

I'm also reading scriptures in spanish - doing fairly well, sometimes.  Usually still need to check at least word in most sentences.  what's annoying is sometimes i feel like I'm checking the same word every time because I just can't get the meaning to stick in my head.  

I'd like to watch things in spanish, with spanish subtitles as well as language track.   

there are also several spanish youtube channels I've found to be helpful.

I've had some speaking time with members in the branch - but i'm still at a very basic speaking level.  I did get a couple spanish/ingles books for my grandson.  I didn't read them when I was there in august - as I was afraid of confusing him too much as his dad doesn't speak spanish and it very keen on teaching him words.  (dd is fluent.)  I'll probably do more when I go back in Nov.

Since we dropped an outsourced class, I am suddenly teaching my kids' Spanish I. I had studied it before, plus went overseas, but I'm rusty.  What sort of goals did you set for yourself with Duolingo? I am currently on level one.  It's mostly review for me, but there is just enough that I don't remember that I couldn't test out of it. 

Do you you mind sharing some of the youtube channels you found?  Thanks in advance!

[cintinative]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:27 AM, wintermom said:

HELP: Spanish speakers!

What is the difference between the two different verbs 'to be' - ser and estar?  I am so confused. Are there any clear, simple rules about when to use one and when to use the other?

 

Matryoshka explained it well, but I wanted to share that I saw a little rhyme the other day that was catchy and might help (although there are exceptions!).

Twinkle, twinkle little estar--how you feel and where you are.

 

[wintermom]

@Penguin I was thinking of you, as I've been thinking in Danish at night these days, as I started watching the Danish TV series Borgen on Netflix. 😄 It's about Danish politics, and there's a woman as Denmark's first Prime Minister. I'm really liking it, even though I'm not that crazy about politics. We have a minority government in Canada right now, and some of the political strategies among the various parties is similar to what's going on in the TV series.

Edited September 30, 2020 by wintermom

[Penguin]

6 minutes ago, wintermom said:

@Penguin I was thinking of you, as I've been thinking in Danish at night these days, as I started watching the Danish TV series Borgen on Netflix. 😄 It's about Danish politics, and there's a woman as Denmark's first Prime Minister. I'm really liking it, even though I'm not that crazy about politics. We have a minority government in Canada right now, and some of the political strategies among the various parties is similar to what's going on in the TV series.

I've actually never seen Borgen. I'm always told that it is a must-see for understanding Danish politics. In my defense, I am just now watching The Wire, which is considered the must-see series for understanding my hometown of Baltimore. And The Wire is 20 years old 🙂 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Penguin

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

Since we dropped an outsourced class, I am suddenly teaching my kids' Spanish I. I had studied it before, plus went overseas, but I'm rusty.  What sort of goals did you set for yourself with Duolingo? I am currently on level one.  It's mostly review for me, but there is just enough that I don't remember that I couldn't test out of it. 

Do you you mind sharing some of the youtube channels you found?  Thanks in advance!

My goal is to complete the tree, and do the stories.  I really should to their tinycards for spanish . . . but, time . . .   Depending on how I feel, i might then do the 'reverse tree'.  Go in as a 'native' spanish speaker wanting to learn English.  I learned about this strategy when I was working on the German tree.

  I'm currently about level 4 1/2 of 7.   (there are 27 subjects in level 4, each with twenty lessons of twenty questions each.)

1) I make sure to always read the tips before starting a new subject. 

2) repeat the words/sentence until you can say it easily - correctly.  you can hover over the spanish words with the dotted line underneath, and it will repeat the pronunciation.   I figure the better my pronunciation the more likely I'll be understood.  I was practicing with a man who had good command, but an extremely thick accent. It was hard to understand him if he speaks english.

3) even if you need to use "snail pace" to catch all the words (there are some sentences even when I have the actual sentence written in front of me - I just can't hear them because words are slurred into each other at full speed.) - make sure to listen to it a few times at full speed. 

4) when learning a new word - give it an image, a feeling, a motion, etc.  do NOT think about the english word.  You want to learn the spanish without using english as a middle language.

5) always do the 'cracked', needs to be refreshed lessons.  It will give you three every day.  As well as refreshing, it will help you see how much you've learned and progressed.

6) if you have any questions, be sure and look at the thread on a question.  There have been some very good responses.

Some channels:

Spanish with Paul (dh actually is happy with that.  It's been hard to find something he will use.)

why not Spanish?

Spanish Playground

I will also recommend "Joanan Rants" for LA culture.  (warning - strong language.  Teachers have written to her and asked her to stop swearing because they want to use her videos in their classes, but can't because of the language.)  She's funny, she gives insights on the differences between different LA countries - and people refusing to acknowledge she's latina because she's a redheaded jew.   (and speaks flawless unaccented English.)  About accents - Argentina, you're Italian uncle is proud to speak spanish.  Cuba - you just interrupted their dentist appointment.  Dominican Republic - they speak extremely fast, and she can't do it so brought in a friend from DR to demonstrate. eta: she razzes on Chileans a lot - so much so, her cousins who live there requested she stop.  She's Columbian.

I'm also reading scriptures - and have progressed to where I'm listening to the app "read" the text while I follow along.  I can understand most of it, but do look up words as needed.

Edited September 30, 2020 by gardenmom5

[wintermom]

3 hours ago, Penguin said:

I've actually never seen Borgen. I'm always told that it is a must-see for understanding Danish politics. In my defense, I am just now watching The Wire, which is considered the must-see series for understanding my hometown of Baltimore. And The Wire is 20 years old 🙂 

 

If you want to brush up on your Norwegian, the series Occupied  is pretty good. There's a mix of different Norwegian dialects, and apparently the topic is pretty true to what would probably happen when a country becomes occupied by a major power. I watched the first season and it was excellent. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by wintermom

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

Since we dropped an outsourced class, I am suddenly teaching my kids' Spanish I. I had studied it before, plus went overseas, but I'm rusty.  What sort of goals did you set for yourself with Duolingo? I am currently on level one.  It's mostly review for me, but there is just enough that I don't remember that I couldn't test out of it. 

Do you you mind sharing some of the youtube channels you found?  Thanks in advance!

More stuff to un-rust your Spanish (I think Gardenmom did a great job giving Duolingo tips, esp. the 'read the tips' part - there is actual grammar instruction in Duolingo, and that's where it is.  I think most people don't use it, but much more effective if you do.).

I found Coffee Break Spanish a while back, and I'll recommend it as a fun way to get some spoken Spanish/ comprehension in.  Scottish guy teaches conversational Spanish (his English accent is, well, Scottish, but his Spanish accent is decently Spanish.  His conversation partner is, I think, always native.)  Lots of humor.

Did someone else already suggest watching Destinos?  Oh, the shoulder pads, but it held my interest well enough even as someone who already spoke the language, and they speak very clearly, and since it's designed for language learners, there's comprehension checks halfway through.  I watched it way back in the 80's when it came out because I was desperate to watch anything in Spanish, and the only other things on TV then were telenovelas (I just... can't.  I know Destinos is supposed to riff on telenovelas, but it's like Shakespeare - okay, maybe Dickens -  in comparison, imho... 😏) and really, really bad game shows.  

Edited September 30, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Junie]

How I Duolingo:

I did the entire Spanish tree a few years ago and then again last year and the beginning of this year.   I am currently working on the reverse tree.

With Duolingo, I have found I do better if I don't take everything to the gold level first.  I realized this about a third of the way down the tree.

I do a lot of testing out of levels.  I will test out as far as I can and then move to the next bubble.  

So, for instance, right now I am about 5/8 of the way down the reverse tree.  I am using the testing out option exclusively for the moment.  Often I can test out the whole way to gold, sometimes I get tripped up in level 2.  I immediately move on to the next bubble.  When I get to the bottom of the tree, I will go back up and finish all of the bubbles to the gold level.  After getting to the bottom of the tree, a lot of the things at the top will have been reviewed on the way down.  If I get stuck, I will do the lessons as they are intended instead of testing out.

This worked really well for me with the original Spanish tree and it seems to be working well on the reverse tree.

I am planning to work on the French tree next.  I haven't decided how I'm going to do Duolingo for French since my French isn't nearly as strong.  I *think* that I'm going to test out as far as I can and move to the next bubble... and then when I get to the top test out as far as I can -- probably not to gold -- and move to the next bubble.  And then on the third time through do the lessons.  By that time I would hope that the French I had in high school would be awake and I would start seeing patterns and making connections to Spanish to help me through the French grammar.

[Little Green Leaves]

A question for @Matryoshkaand all of you other Spanish grammar experts:

I passed a Spanish-language sign today urging people to become organ donors. It said in big letters "Sea considerado." (Be considerate I guess. I didnt know "considerado.")

I thought it was interesting that it used "ser" rather than "estar." If I'd had to guess, I would have guessed that "estar" was correct, since the sign was urging people to take a specific action. I guess it's "ser" because it's talking about a profound character trait? 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[Based on Faith Academy]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:13 PM, Momto6inIN said:

I once was moderately fluent in Spanish, but years of non-use have me pretty rusty. I can get the gist of things I read, but anything other than rudimentary speech is beyond me now. I could probably get the gist of spoken Spanish if the speaker went slowly enough, but that's not terribly practical.

My goal is to be better able to do conversation practice with my kids. In our extremely low diversity rural area, there's not much necessity (or opportunity for practice) otherwise.

I started with Rosetta Stone (which I would never recommend for a high school student but which I thought would work well as a refresher for me) and it was helping me increase my verbal comprehension some. I sailed through Level 1, but Level 2 is when they introduce different tenses and without direct instruction I'm getting lost. So now I'm doing Visual Link, which is what my kids do. I'm hoping that gives me the verb conjugation practice I think I need.

Why don't you recommend Rosetta Stone for high school?

[maize]

14 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

A question for @Matryoshkaand all of you other Spanish grammar experts:

I passed a Spanish-language sign today urging people to become organ donors. It said in big letters "Sea considerado." (Be considerate I guess. I didnt know "considerado.")

I thought it was interesting that it used "ser" rather than "estar." If I'd had to guess, I would have guessed that "estar" was correct, since the sign was urging people to take a specific action. I guess it's "ser" because it's talking about a profound character trait? 

Here are some explanations of the use of ser in a similar imperative:

https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/5373/sé-creativo-why-is-estar-not-used-for-this-imperative

 

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, Based on Faith Academy said:

Why don't you recommend Rosetta Stone for high school?

It doesn't, well, teach, for one thing.  You might learn a bunch of vocabulary (but will you retain it??).  It just doesn't have the same scope and sequence, and most people need some explicit instruction - it's certainly way more efficient.  A super-motivated person might be able to use it for a good introduction.  99.9% of high school students are not motivated in that way.

Duolingo is much better than Rosetta Stone, but I would also never use it for an equivalent to a high school course.  But a much better intro than Rosetta Stone.   Even then I've had students come to me whose parents insist they've had 'a year of Spanish' on Duolingo who have barely retained enough to get through the intro chapter to a Spanish I course.  So no, they're not ready for Spanish II.

Both are much better if you already speak more than one language and are used to intuiting things like grammar rules.  I know young children learn by immersion, but high schoolers are not young children, and playing with Rosetta Stone for a few hours a week is not immersion.  If you want to learn by immersion, what you do is move to that country for an extended period with no one who speaks English and, well, immerse (even then, if you are not a very young child it is helpful to have some basic understanding before jumping in to the deep end).  I am not anti-immersion; I learned both the languages I am fluent in in large part by immersion, but with the method I describe above, not picture flashcards on a computer.

[Penguin]

Hi. I started a new Foreign Language thread for October. Hop on over!

Learning Foreign Languages Thread - October

 

[Matryoshka]

Speaking of Duolingo, you guys have made me want to play with some new languages.  I've started up Portuguese and Chinese.  It is fun!

But, I'm annoyed by the ads, and I keep being told I'm spending too much time and need to add 'gems' or upgrade to Plus.   And now I've run out of gems to add. 😒  So, anyone know how much Plus costs?  It doesn't say, of course, just offers me a 'free trial'.  I am wary of those, especially when they don't tell me what the charges are when the term ends!

And, anyone wanna be my friend on Duolingo? 😁

[Momto6inIN]

6 hours ago, Based on Faith Academy said:

Why don't you recommend Rosetta Stone for high school?

See below, she answered a lot better than I could have 🙂

3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

It doesn't, well, teach, for one thing.  You might learn a bunch of vocabulary (but will you retain it??).  It just doesn't have the same scope and sequence, and most people need some explicit instruction - it's certainly way more efficient.  A super-motivated person might be able to use it for a good introduction.  99.9% of high school students are not motivated in that way.

Duolingo is much better than Rosetta Stone, but I would also never use it for an equivalent to a high school course.  But a much better intro than Rosetta Stone.   Even then I've had students come to me whose parents insist they've had 'a year of Spanish' on Duolingo who have barely retained enough to get through the intro chapter to a Spanish I course.  So no, they're not ready for Spanish II.

Both are much better if you already speak more than one language and are used to intuiting things like grammar rules.  I know young children learn by immersion, but high schoolers are not young children, and playing with Rosetta Stone for a few hours a week is not immersion.  If you want to learn by immersion, what you do is move to that country for an extended period with no one who speaks English and, well, immerse (even then, if you are not a very young child it is helpful to have some basic understanding before jumping in to the deep end).  I am not anti-immersion; I learned both the languages I am fluent in in large part by immersion, but with the method I describe above, not picture flashcards on a computer.

 

[Matryoshka]

A big thank you to those of you who let me know the desktop Duolingo works differently than the App.  With the boards down yesterday, what else did I have to do but spend FAR too much time playing there, which I wouldn't have been able t do with all that heart/gem ridiculousness!

It also appears that on the App, I have to pay gems (which I do not have) to test out of a level, or pay for Plus?  😒 Thankfully not on the desktop version - I've been happily testing out of Portuguese levels (it's similar enough to Spanish that I don't need that much repetition, especially at the lower levels.  I have been doing the first level or so of each circle through first, though, as the intro is good to have to get myself oriented).  Going a lot more slowly in Chinese!  I have had a tiny intro before, so it's still going reasonably quickly as I had some familiarity with some of the basics, but I will likely have to slow way down after the first benchmark or so.

And, I think I've figured out how to add friends there if I know their names.  Anyone who wants to be my Duolingo friend, PM me your Duolingo username (which I think includes numbers after your name if it gives them to you by default), or I can PM you mine. 🙂