Anyone know ASL to sort this out?

[PeterPan]

I'm looking for a sign my ds can use to indicate he needs a break. As in he's doing school work and he would like to stop and take a break. Could be a long break or a short break. Could be he needs to run to the bathroom. Could be he's overwhelmed and finds the set of work long and wants to pause. Could be his body needs to move or is hungry. Whatever it is, he wants to take a break, leave the room, go do something else for a while, and I need a way he can communicate this rather than leaving abruptly. He has ASD2 and his language drops when he is stressed. I'm seeing different signs when I google this, and I think maybe I'm seeing nuances of meaning. Are these all valid and how would you decide what to use where?

I've used break cards with him, but they don't go with him, meaning therapists aren't using them. I want something durable that will work across settings. I've thought about recordable buttons, but again it's not durable across settings. He's had "request a break" as an IEP goal for several years now and just does not do it, so it's time to try winning another way.

This one literally seems to say "break time". 

  

https://www.handspeak.com/word/search/index.php?id=248  This one is being explained as recess or break.

https://www.spreadthesign.com/en.us/sentence/10013/let-s-take-a-break/  And this video expands it with what I assume is lets/we all and then break. 

He's doing reasonably well with learning finger spelling, so I think he can sign to communicate this. One step would be better than two. He's 11, almost 12. But I'd like it to be something universally recognized, so that if he were placed in an autism school or working with a therapist they would know what he meant. I don't even care if there are several options based on nuances and he picks the one that fits or that is easiest for him to make. 

Anyone know this? 

[Guest]

Toilet is twisting a T. It’s one of the signs that is pretty common to teach young children, so it would be well recognized. I’m guessing that folks working with kids with ASD would understand that “go to the bathroom” can also mean “I really need to get up, walk around, get a drink, and just get out of here for a bit”.

Edited September 17, 2020 by dmmetler

[Arctic Bunny]

What about this one for “quiet”? It seems like something even I (not knowing any ASL) would understand.

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, dmmetler said:

Toilet is twisting a T. It’s one of the signs that is pretty common to teach young children, so it would be well recognized. 

Oh that is SO smart!!! I totally had not even thought of that. And you're right, some nuance would be really nice. How about snack or drink? I let him keep a water bottle in our office and give him gum. However sometimes he just bolts out and comes back with (pick the snack food). Sometimes it's lemonade, but usually it's a snack.

I really like that idea of teaching him several and getting some nuance. We need more communication. We've worked and worked on language, but reality is as soon as he has big ANYTHING, like big pain, big hunger, big frustration, the language drops and it's over. So you're right, we could improve that with just a few targeted signs. He's doing gangbusters with the ASL letters. We do a new one every two days and transfer it over to typing and spelling. He's very proud of himself. We never did AAC, even though I bought LAMP to try. ASL is durable, well recognized, and easy to do for a person who doesn't have a device on them.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, arctic_bunny said:

What about this one for “quiet”? It seems like something even I (not knowing any ASL) would understand.

Hmm, interesting point. The only people he does high demand tasks with are professionals (and me, haha), so they can suck up and know/learn the sign. I don't think I want to teach him something non standard, because I have a feeling that would be interpreted like speaking spanglish. Or I'm OCD and perfectionist, lol. 

Also, I think that sign might have some control/command component or meaning. It's an interesting thought, like if want he wants to communicate is quiet, I need to think, let me think. That could really, really work for that and I could see that scenario happening at some point. But I'm not going to have him telling me what to do in signs, haha. I already have enough issues with him, lol.

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

Toilet is twisting a T. It’s one of the signs that is pretty common to teach young children, so it would be well recognized. 

I'm just realizing, I can teach him that when we cover T! Perfect. We're covering T in the next week or two. He'll love it. If I just teach a new one every few weeks, they'll merge in and get used. 

[Guest]

Eat and drink are basically miming what you’re doing (eat is a closed hand to the mouth, drink an open C to the mouth). They’re also really simple and are used a lot with little ones, so even teachers who don’t know ASL would probably know them. 
 

Actually, going through a list of the most common “Baby Signs” would probably give him a decent vocabulary for life skills needs for when the apraxia won’t let him talk. One reason I learned ASL is that I can sometimes restart my brain by signing or finger spelling what I want to say-even if the other person doesn’t understand, because once I have one path working, the others unblock. (Especially names). 

[Ellie]

He could sign "finish." That is a sign with many applications or nuances.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

Eat and drink are basically miming what you’re doing (eat is a closed hand to the mouth, drink an open C to the mouth). They’re also really simple and are used a lot with little ones, so even teachers who don’t know ASL would probably know them. 
 

Actually, going through a list of the most common “Baby Signs” would probably give him a decent vocabulary for life skills needs for when the apraxia won’t let him talk. One reason I learned ASL is that I can sometimes restart my brain by signing or finger spelling what I want to say-even if the other person doesn’t understand, because once I have one path working, the others unblock. (Especially names). 

Whoa, you're blowing my mind here. That is so amazing. I may have stumbled onto it, because I'm tying his typing and spelling together after so many failed starts. We're going super super slow, learning a letter, typing lines of letters with it for two days, then adding another letter. And every day we spell to each other 3 words. It's actually pretty hard for him because his VMI was poor. It's going better and he seems to like it. It's funny thought, because when he sees a word finger spelled and thinks through the letters, it totally does not process into WORD. Well not totally, but it's really crunchy. We're going to keep working on it. Yesterday I let him read the finger spelling and write the word on a whiteboard to read it out. Clearly those pathways are crunchy and need work. So yes, that's my plan, to continue signing his spelling.

Anyways, I love this idea that signing could jump start language when it's shut down. I have I think a baby signs cd and I know I have all the Signing Time. I got Signing Time when he was young, but he struggled to imitate and use them. Focusing on the Baby Signs would probably work much better. That's a really strong idea. They would be limited, concrete, widely recognized. And he clearly likes it. We learned the letter B yesterday, so this morning when I came to talk to him he showed me the letter B in greeting. He's a riot. 

Edited September 17, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Ellie said:

He could sign "finish." That is a sign with many applications or nuances.

Ooo, interesting. I really like that as an option. I think we have a growing list here. I will say he doesn't get the luxury of saying finished, haha. He can request a BREAK, but he actually has to return. It's just that requesting a break and taking a break is a safety thing. If we don't have communication and he's frustrated, we're going to get behaviors. So we're always about communication. It's better for him to take a break for 2-3 and come back ready to work than it is to have behaviors.

[Junie]

I think @dmmetler 's idea of baby signing is excellent.

I have been learning ASL for several years and it sounds like your son might be able to learn quite a bit.  And it's super that he's interested in learning it.

This video clip shows one way to sign 5 minutes.  That might also be useful for both of you.  You can use this for other amounts of time by changing the number signed on the right hand

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ooo, interesting. I really like that as an option. I think we have a growing list here. I will say he doesn't get the luxury of saying finished, haha. He can request a BREAK, but he actually has to return. It's just that requesting a break and taking a break is a safety thing. If we don't have communication and he's frustrated, we're going to get behaviors. So we're always about communication. It's better for him to take a break for 2-3 and come back ready to work than it is to have behaviors.

"Finish" doesn't mean "I am so done and I'm never coming back." It can mean, "I'm finished here. May I take a break?" if y'all discuss it that way.

[historically accurate]

Not ASL, but T for "Time out" like in football and maybe a number for how many minutes request would work for those providers who don't know ASL.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Junie said:

This video clip shows one way to sign 5 minutes.  That might also be useful for both of you.  You can use this for other amounts of time by changing the number signed on the right hand

I LOVE this idea. It's something I talk about with him, saying whether the break will be 5 minutes or 2 minutes or whatever. I could use it with him and he'd catch on maybe.

9 minutes ago, beckyjo said:

Not ASL, but T for "Time out" like in football and maybe a number for how many minutes request would work for those providers who don't know ASL.

Oh that's smart. And it's more kind of gross motor. I tried practicing the recess/break sign from one of the links, and I can't even remember it. It's like which fingers spread, which goes through where, too much. But just a really simple time out, that would be universal and easier. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

Toilet is twisting a T. It’s one of the signs that is pretty common to teach young children, so it would be well recognized. I’m guessing that folks working with kids with ASD would understand that “go to the bathroom” can also mean “I really need to get up, walk around, get a drink, and just get out of here for a bit”.

I would caution that you need to educate people working with him on this if they know it means bathroom. A similar dynamic but with spoken language created a problem for a child/teacher in my kids' extracurricular class. The class was as accommodating as you can get and not be a class specifically designed for those with disabilities, but a kid was using a bathroom break request all.the.time with no known medical issues (parents are required to fill out a form for medical issues and encouraged to also communicate any needed accommodations). It was perceived as being a way to leave class to do who knows what, and there ended up being a big problem because neither child nor parent told the teacher that this was how the student requested a generic break for overwhelm/anxiety/whatever the need was. The family expected this teacher to know somehow and to be okay with a child in her care leaving over and over in a situation where the teacher could've been held responsible if the student was up to no good or got hurt, etc. while out of class. I believe that maybe the way the child was leaving was also either disruptive, or the child would disappear, but I can't remember--the family communicated only that there might be bathroom breaks needed. I'm not even sure they specified how they would occur or that they might be frequent. It was a very bad setup given the context and the behavior issues involved.

[Lecka]

I think it’s worth thinking about if he’s asking if he can take a break, or if he’s just going to flash a sign as he runs out of the room.  Ideally he would ask and then wait for a response.

I think if you are seeing this in therapy, mainly, send the break cards in and tell the therapist your expectation.  If you want him immediately allowed to take a break every time he requests, tell them that.  That is totally reasonable.  

Edited September 17, 2020 by Lecka

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, beckyjo said:

Not ASL, but T for "Time out" like in football and maybe a number for how many minutes request would work for those providers who don't know ASL.

This is what I was thinking as well. Of course, you could continue working on ASL--seems like it would have a huge number of benefits for him. But the two-handed "time out" sign is pretty widely understood, and could apply to any reason he needs a break.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Jaybee
removing superfluous words

[katilac]

Why not just the good ol' time out signal? One hand pointing up, the other hand across the top, forming a T. 

The advantage is that almost everyone already understands it. He can use it with his helpers in a specific way, but random people will also understand it. 

[Rosie_0801]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I tried practicing the recess/break sign from one of the links, and I can't even remember it. It's like which fingers spread, which goes through where, too much. But just a really simple time out, that would be universal and easier. 

 

Try thinking about the phonemes of the sign:
Handshape
Orientation
Location
Movement
Expression

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

the good ol' time out signal?

Yup, we worked on it today and he seems to be liking it. Well as much as he likes needing to take a break. Now if I taught him CUPCAKE, that he would be willing to sign. Or cookie. I should totally do that.  

[kristin0713]

I'm chiming in as an ASL interpreter, since you specifically asked about the the signs posted above and if they can mean break in this context in ASL.

I actually would not use any of those.  I would use this one for "take a break" in this context:

https://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/PAUSE/4070/1 

 

The first video is very "English" and not conceptually accurate.  I would only use that if something was broken.  I would use the second for interrupt or interruption.  

 

This really only matters if you want him communicating in authentic ASL and if the professionals involved with him know the language.  Otherwise, modifying signs and using what is known as "home signs" within a family or school environment is very common for children with special needs.  

 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I actually would not use any of those.  I would use this one for "take a break" in this context:

https://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/PAUSE/4070/1 

 

Thank you!! I would not have figured that out on my own, but it seems very expressive and doable. I'll definitely teach him that one too so he has options. 

4 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

The first video is very "English" and not conceptually accurate.  I would only use that if something was broken.  I would use the second for interrupt or interruption.  

That makes sense! I don't know much ASL, but I understand it's not supposed to be a literally translated english. I'm glad I asked and that you were able to clarify it for us.

5 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

This really only matters if you want him communicating in authentic ASL and if the professionals involved with him know the language.  Otherwise, modifying signs and using what is known as "home signs" within a family or school environment is very common for children with special needs.  

That makes sense. Who knows. In an autism school there will definitely be people who know ASL. Although he's with me now, there's always the possibility he would need a placement at some point.

You know, I'm realizing I never thought to google for modified ASL for SN. I had heard of this, but it just hadn't occurred to me. I think some things just weren't so obvious about how this would pan out. It's easy not to do things thinking they might not be necessary. Wow, I'm googling now and finding tons of good hits. What a good, good point. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think if you are seeing this in therapy, mainly, send the break cards in and tell the therapist your expectation.

I sent break cards and they ignored them. Now with teletherapy he doesn't need them as we're to the point where he typically stays. It's usually with me. And some of it is just that he's there and then POOF and you're like dude how about you actually SAY where you're going or whether you're coming back, lol. 

And of course breaks are hard because you have to both have the interoception to realize you need a break (which he now does) AND use a method of communication to get there.

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

I would caution that you need to educate people working with him

Yeah I won't do anything that is nonstandard. Right now he does zero with outside people, so it doesn't matter. He hasn't had any outside activities since he started the anxiety meds. His whole world is changing, with meds, puberty, improved interoception, more moodiness, etc. He's finding new ways to deal with what he realizes. It's just a work in progress I guess. But he's liking the ASL finger spelling enough that it gives me a little window to try a *little*. Advocating for breaks is still an IEP goal, so whatever will do will be in his IEP, meaning anyone working with him will know.

[PeterPan]

If I were smart, I'd just teach him to finger spell break. 

[Rosie_0801]

24 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If I were smart, I'd just teach him to finger spell break. 

Nah. Fingerspelling is more effort than a sign, so better to use a sign.

[Lecka]

I think you need to be clear about what “protocal” you want for breaks.

A lot of people use break cards and “asking for a break” and expect to be able to say “no, not right now,” or “finish this first,” or “in five minutes you can take a break.” 
 

If you want him to take a break immediately, but still actually practice asking for a break, you need to make it clear and remind often.  
 

People who have not worked a lot on how to teach this skill don’t know how important it is for kids to experience that “asking for a break works.”  If it doesn’t work for kids they won’t do it.  And that is apart from all the other ways it is difficult!  
 

If people are not allowing an immediate break, they don’t know. 
 

If they do know and they ignore it anyway, bc they thought “5 more minutes” would be okay, and then your son elopes and it sets back his progress on asking for breaks, I would call them out on it.  
 

I would look at your IEP too and see what it says about how to implement break cards, make sure that is what is working now, and bring it up and explain.  If what is in his IEP isn’t current I would explain and point that out too.  
 

Also, asking for a break needs to be easy, easy, easy.  I think stay with things that are very easy!

And then other times he can have more reserves and ask in a “harder” way.

But he needs some way that’s very easy for when he is getting disregulated.