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UPDATE:

I contacted the company.  They did not have an answer key included and had not had a request for one, but since I asked, they made one and posted it in the parent resources.  They were super helpful and very open to feedback.  I decided that each week I am going to go over the quiz ahead of time and make study guide questions for her that will reinforce the important concepts and hopefully help her weed out the tricky or vague wording when it comes time for her to take the quizzes and tests.  I will let her use her notes to answer the the study guide questions but not for the quizzes/tests.  I am also borrowing a high school biology textbook from a friend and I am going to assign her readings to reinforce the content.  Thanks for all of your suggestions!  🙂 

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How do you feel about open book tests?  DD is taking biology through Experience Biology.  I like everything about the class except the quizzes questions that I feel are unreasonable because the wording is confusing, even to me as I am looking at the quiz and at the study guide notes at the same time.  I'm frustrated for her.  She could memorize all of these notes verbatim and still get answers wrong because of the way they are worded.  I know that they are testing a deeper level of understanding.  This is the first time I am requiring her to "study" for a test and it just seems out of reach.  Also, I am not counting this as "honors" credit unless she studies for and passes a CLEP exam at some point.  

Edited by kristin0713
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Are the tests designed to be open book?  If so, they are probably designed to be more about concepts and connections than they are about vocabulary and memorization--though with timed open book tests, it is important to know as much as possible so that you aren't looking everything up.

Or are you asking whether you as a homeschool parent can allow her to use her notes and other helps for tests that weren't designed to be open book.  If you are giving the credit for the course yourself, you can do whatever you want.

When you say that the questions are worded in a confusing way, can you give an example of what you mean?  That would make it easier to understand whether it's a problem with the questions themselves, a problem with being flexible with how things are worded (which is common when people first lear things), or that they are really expecting large leaps in understanding.

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23 minutes ago, EKS said:

Are the tests designed to be open book?  If so, they are probably designed to be more about concepts and connections than they are about vocabulary and memorization--though with timed open book tests, it is important to know as much as possible so that you aren't looking everything up.

Or are you asking whether you as a homeschool parent can allow her to use her notes and other helps for tests that weren't designed to be open book.  If you are giving the credit for the course yourself, you can do whatever you want.

When you say that the questions are worded in a confusing way, can you give an example of what you mean?  That would make it easier to understand whether it's a problem with the questions themselves, a problem with being flexible with how things are worded (which is common when people first lear things), or that they are really expecting large leaps in understanding.

 

They are not designed to be open book.

I know that I *can* do whatever I want, but I want to know if it is appropriate for me to do so for a high school level class.  I think it is important to be able to study, retain information, and take a test.  I don't want to just make it easier for her and not do her any favors in the long run.  

Here is an example of what I think is an unreasonable or "trick" question based on the video lectures and notes.  (They are guided notes; there is an outline in her notebook with blanks to fill in, and the notes come up on the screen.)

An atom is most stable when...

a. Its outermost shell is empty.; b. It has an uneven number of electrons.; c. Its outermost shell is full of electrons.; d. It has an even number of protons.

Now, there is nothing in the notes about *atoms* specifically being stable.  The notes say:

III. Atoms

Atoms are the building blocks of elements.

1. Atoms are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons

2. Nucleus: the center of an atom, comprised of protons and neutrons 

3. Electron shells: the areas in an atom where electrons exist, orbiting the nucleus

a) Valence shell: the outermost electron shell in an atom

b) Valence electrons: the electrons in the valence shell

c) Octet rule: most elements are most stable with 8 electrons in their valence shell

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For what it's worth, the exams and quizzes my middle daughter took in community college biology (and other courses too) were open book.  You still have to study so you know where to go look up stuff and get done in the time limit.  She studied like it wasn't going to be available (used the cengage flashcards, practice quizzes, etc).

(oops. started typing while you were making second reply.....For what's it's worth...  for the first few exams in high school in all subjects in grade 9, I had my oldest and middle study and use notes/open book as part of an overall learn how to study process. I tried to wean form that as semester went on and years did.  However, we never did outsourced coursework for core subjects. 

You didn't ask for this opinion. wanted to share my thoughts now that I have two who have graduated college..... for what it's worth: honors and clep. two different and valid approaches can happen for "honors".  1. they have to pass the clep exam to earn that honors.  or 2. they do the extra work of clep prep and take exam and give honors because they did extra work, not because of exam score. (those who take AP course, still get to have AP on the course even if they don't take exam. similar thought)

Edited by cbollin
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Based on your example, I would say that the authors don't know what they're talking about when it comes to chemistry.  They aren't using the word "stable" correctly.  The correct word would be "reactive."  And I assume that the answer to the question is c--"valance shell" and "outermost shell" mean the same thing, and 8 is the full complement of electrons in the valance/outermost shell (usually).

Stability, by contrast, has to do with the number of protons in an atom's nucleus--an unstable atom is one that is likely to undergo radioactive decay.

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30 minutes ago, EKS said:

Based on your example, I would say that the authors don't know what they're talking about when it comes to chemistry.  They aren't using the word "stable" correctly.  The correct word would be "reactive."  And I assume that the answer to the question is c--"valance shell" and "outermost shell" mean the same thing, and 8 is the full complement of electrons in the valance/outermost shell.

Stability, by contrast, has to do with the number of protons in an atom's nucleus--an unstable atom is one that is likely to undergo radioactive decay.

 

Well that is a little concerning.  I'm not sure how to handle this.  

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51 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

 

Well that is a little concerning.  I'm not sure how to handle this.  

Could you give another example? 

Your previous one, if you ignore the incorrect use of the word "stable," wasn't really asking for deeper understanding and shouldn't have been too difficult assuming that she was familiar with the terms involved.  It was mostly just testing whether the student understands the term "valance shell," how many electrons the valance shell usually contains, and that atoms with unfilled valance shells react with other atoms (to fill their valance shells by sharing electrons, though this bit isn't explicitly being tested).  

If she hasn't had chemistry, all of this is going to seem new and odd.  The good news is that they talk about this in biology so that they can then move on to the special properties of water and carbon chemistry and how this relates to the molecules and processes of life, and these concepts are fairly straightforward.  So she won't need to completely understand it as she would for a chemistry course.

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1 hour ago, EKS said:

Your previous one, if you ignore the incorrect use of the word "stable," wasn't really asking for deeper understanding and shouldn't have been too difficult assuming that she was familiar with the terms involved. 

 

Part of the problem is that she has OCD (legitimately) and overthinks everything.  She would see this and say that the notes don't talk about atoms being stable, they mention electrons being stable.  So even with the notes, she would struggle with this question.  

Here is another one. 

What can't be broken into smaller pieces using ordinary chemical reactions?

a. Molecule; b. Compound; c. Cell; d. Element

The videos and notes discuss atoms coming together to form molecules in a chemical reaction. They also say that carbohydrates are compounds of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. I think with a deeper understanding, she would know that molecules, compounds, and elements can be all be broken apart. But this is not specifically stated, so I could see it really confusing her.  She would probably say that the video and notes didn't say whether a cell can be broken apart.  With the notes, maybe she could figure it out by process of elimination. I still think it is a bad question given what was in the teaching. 

Edited by kristin0713
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There are a couple of different questions here.  First, other than the imprecision in the use of 'stable' vs 'non-reactive', that question seems pretty normal to me (and, to be fair, biologists are often a little imprecise with their chemistry and physics because they are using such a tiny sliver of it that they're only talking about it as it applies to their course - it's not ideal, but it happens at all levels including college so probably isn't a sign of incompetence). 

You can use the class any way that you want, so if you think that open-book is the way to go, then you can.  I always prefer that people list my class as a resource (the same way that they'd list multiple textbooks) if they don't use it as I put it together.  I don't have a problem with them doing this, though.  My reasoning is that, at least locally, my class is known by the people who run the umbrella programs and several automatically award honors or advanced credit to students who take it.  Because they use that as a standard to compare the students' other work with, I want for the grades to be arrived at the same way.  If there's no outside agency looking at it, it doesn't really matter.  

As to whether tests at upper levels are usually open or closed book, when I taught at a community college (bio for pre-nursing) it was required that at least 80% of their points be from closed-note assessment - I think it was part of our transfer agreement with local State U.   Obviously not all classes are like that.  I hear of students taking open note tests, but during my college and grad school time I only had 1 open note test (and a couple of others allowed a note card or page with formulas).  

And, now that you've updated with a new example, I'd assume that the answer to the last question is 'element' - elements are pure and only have 1 type of atom, so while they can be physically broken into smaller pieces, they can't be chemically broken down into component parts because they are all the same, while molecules and compounds are made of multiple atoms (although a given molecule can be 2 of the same type of atom, it could also be multiple different elements).  Cells are the throwaway - if they're doing chemistry, they probably haven't gotten to cells yet, but cells are made of all sorts of things and can be broken down any number of chemical ways. 

From what you are saying, it seems like the bigger problem is over thinking or uncertainty in applying the concepts - with both examples you've said that the notes don't exactly match the question in a way that is confusing to you/your daughter, so I'm not clear on how having the notes would help.  This isn't meant as a critisism, but more of a question as to whether the solution of using notes will help the problem.  

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37 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

 

Part of the problem is that she has OCD (legitimately) and overthinks everything.  She would see this and say that the notes don't talk about atoms being stable, they mention electrons being stable.  So even with the notes, she would struggle with this question.  

Here is another one. 

What can't be broken into smaller pieces using ordinary chemical reactions?

a. Molecule; b. Compound; c. Cell; d. Element

The videos and notes discuss atoms coming together to form molecules in a chemical reaction. They also say that carbohydrates are compounds of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. I think with a deeper understanding, she would know that molecules, compounds, and elements can be all be broken apart. But this is not specifically stated, so I could see it really confusing her.  She would probably say that the video and notes didn't say whether a cell can be broken apart.  With the notes, maybe she could figure it out by process of elimination. I still think it is a bad question given what was in the teaching. 

What do they say that the answer is?  I would think it's D, but what you've written here makes me think  that they think it's C.

Elements can't be broken apart using ordinary chemical reactions.  The rest of them can.  The question is whether they discussed what a "ordinary chemical reaction" is.

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20 minutes ago, EKS said:

What do they say that the answer is?  I would think it's D, but what you've written here makes me think  that they think it's C.

Elements can't be broken apart using ordinary chemical reactions.  The rest of them can.  The question is whether they discussed what a "ordinary chemical reaction" is.

Ugh, there is no answer key!  I can tell from your responses that you have a much greater understanding of chemistry than I do so you are probably correct.  There are two statements in the notes about elements: Atoms are the building blocks of elements, and Octet rule: most elements are most stable with 8 electrons in their valence shell.  Regarding chemical reactions, it says: When atoms come together to mako a molecule, or when a molecule breaks up into separate atoms. 

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2 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

Ugh, there is no answer key!  I can tell from your responses that you have a much greater understanding of chemistry than I do so you are probably correct.  There are two statements in the notes about elements: Atoms are the building blocks of elements, and Octet rule: most elements are most stable with 8 electrons in their valence shell.  Regarding chemical reactions, it says: When atoms come together to mako a molecule, or when a molecule breaks up into separate atoms. 

I'd review the relevant videos.  It's possible that there is more teaching in them than is captured in the notes. 

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I also see a number of issues here.

* This program does seem to have a number of questions that are imprecise, paired with notes that are also imprecise. That's concerning for the program. This may not be about open or closed book tests or what you can and can't do. I think it's about whether the program is any good.

* Open book is fine. But usually the types of questions that you're showing us are not good for open book questions. I like in depth questions for open book.

* I personally think it's fine to change a program however you need. So if a program has open book tests but you want a student to do it without, then change it. If a program has closed book tests but you feel it's a good accommodation for your student to make them open, then do that. You're the teacher. Just to note that I do NOT think this is the case for an outside class. If the teacher says it's closed book, then it's closed book. Period. But as long as you have bought the curriculum and are the teacher, you decide how to do it.

 

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4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This program does seem to have a number of questions that are imprecise, paired with notes that are also imprecise. That's concerning for the program. This may not be about open or closed book tests or what you can and can't do. I think it's about whether the program is any good.

I just looked at their website, and the imprecision extends to other areas as well.  For example, they have an option to enroll in a version of the course "for high school credit," and yet, they don't grant the credit.  

All of this has gotten me curious enough to request a sample.

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I have dropped so much money on this program.  Over $400 on the course and lab supplies. And the supplies I bought from home science tools so it's not like I can return it all.  

I was really hoping this would work because there are video lessons, guided notes, video labs, and guidance on writing lab reports. 

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8 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I have dropped so much money on this program.  Over $400 on the course and lab supplies. And the supplies I bought from home science tools so it's not like I can return it all.  

I was really hoping this would work because there are video lessons, guided notes, video labs, and guidance on writing lab reports. 

You could add a mainstream biology text and then just use the videos as a supplement and keep the labs.  I bet you could get an inexpensive used copy of Miller and Levine.

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What is the set-up for this class?  Is there more information in the videos than in the notes, or is there a book?  I definitely wouldn't expect the provided notes to be comprehensive - I'd expect that they might be an outline to help you see main ideas in the video.  Are there assignments or quizzes along the way to help students know where they have problems, and is there somebody that they can ask questions?  Are the tests graded by the provider?  I don't publish answers as a set for the parents, for instance, but I make corrections on the work so that students know how they're doing and what they're missing.  The content seems pretty typical for the first month of biology, and while it's easier for students who have had chemistry it isn't unusual for most students to have not yet taken chemistry when they take biology.  

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21 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

What is the set-up for this class?  Is there more information in the videos than in the notes, or is there a book?  I definitely wouldn't expect the provided notes to be comprehensive - I'd expect that they might be an outline to help you see main ideas in the video.  Are there assignments or quizzes along the way to help students know where they have problems, and is there somebody that they can ask questions?  Are the tests graded by the provider?  I don't publish answers as a set for the parents, for instance, but I make corrections on the work so that students know how they're doing and what they're missing.  The content seems pretty typical for the first month of biology, and while it's easier for students who have had chemistry it isn't unusual for most students to have not yet taken chemistry when they take biology.  

So this is a Christian program.  They recommend the following textbook: https://www.amazon.com/Riot-Dance-Foundational-Biology/dp/1591281237/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=the+riot+and+the+dance&qid=1600108236&sr=8-2 

But they also say that you can use any biology textbook to reinforce the concepts. When I inquired about scheduling the different components of the course, they told me that the quizzes were based on the video lectures and notes. The quizzes are done online and graded automatically. I can see what she got wrong but NOT what the right answer is or an explanation. 

I am in a non-reporting state and I'm not concerned about the automatic grading, except that I want her grade to be representative of her work and understanding of the content. 

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I also see a number of issues here.

* This program does seem to have a number of questions that are imprecise, paired with notes that are also imprecise. That's concerning for the program. This may not be about open or closed book tests or what you can and can't do. I think it's about whether the program is any good.

* Open book is fine. But usually the types of questions that you're showing us are not good for open book questions. I like in depth questions for open book.

* I personally think it's fine to change a program however you need. So if a program has open book tests but you want a student to do it without, then change it. If a program has closed book tests but you feel it's a good accommodation for your student to make them open, then do that. You're the teacher. Just to note that I do NOT think this is the case for an outside class. If the teacher says it's closed book, then it's closed book. Period. But as long as you have bought the curriculum and are the teacher, you decide how to do it.

 

 

I agree with you.  In talking with DH, he thinks I am automatically wanting to make this easier for her.  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that she should be able to study and get the answers correct if she knows the content.  

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From what you've written, using the book probably wouldn't help because they're wanting her to put different bits of information together to get the answer - my assignments require a bit of that and it often throws students for a loop because they're not used to doing that in a science class yet (I don't ask for that sort of thinking for the first time on a test).  One mom described it as the struggle of going from looking for matching phrases in the text and on the test to students having to figure out that A is part of B, and B has certain characterstics, so A must have them, too.  But, that's a separate issue from not having explanations for missed questions.  I don't know how that is supposed to work as a learning process - going over the missed questions or at least giving the correct answer is important for students to be able to figure out where they're going wrong.  

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2 hours ago, ClemsonDana said:

From what you've written, using the book probably wouldn't help because they're wanting her to put different bits of information together to get the answer - my assignments require a bit of that and it often throws students for a loop because they're not used to doing that in a science class yet (I don't ask for that sort of thinking for the first time on a test).  One mom described it as the struggle of going from looking for matching phrases in the text and on the test to students having to figure out that A is part of B, and B has certain characterstics, so A must have them, too.  But, that's a separate issue from not having explanations for missed questions.  I don't know how that is supposed to work as a learning process - going over the missed questions or at least giving the correct answer is important for students to be able to figure out where they're going wrong.  

 

I agree.  I asked if they can provide me with an answer key.  

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7 hours ago, EKS said:

What do they say that the answer is?  I would think it's D, but what you've written here makes me think  that they think it's C.

Elements can't be broken apart using ordinary chemical reactions.  The rest of them can.  The question is whether they discussed what a "ordinary chemical reaction" is.

I went back and watched the video. He did say "Elements can't be broken apart into smaller pieces using ordinary chemical reactions."

The problem is that this is not in the notes (and the notes are very thorough--three pages long).  One of my goals for her this year is to learn how to take notes and study from them.  Is it unreasonable for me to expect that with such extensive guided notes, the quiz questions would come from them? 

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I would not expect that every answer would be explicitly spelled out in the pre-written notes.  Tomorrow I'll be posting a test over the chemistry part of biology and I'd expect that most students have more than 3 pages of notes to study from (I don't give study notes) - I'd think that the notes are more of an outline, but I don't know how the notes and lecture align in your program.  Is there enough information in the notes to infer the answer?  Like, if they said that molecules and compounds are made by joining atoms together with chemical bonds and there is something about bonds being made or broken, and there is also a statement of elements only being one kind of atom, then one could guess that the element is the thing that can't be broken down chemically because there aren't chemical bonds to be broken.  But, I would expect students to need to watch the video or read from a book to get everything that they need to understand the material.  It is also not unusual for an instructor to include helpful hints in the lecture (whether live or recorded) that wouldn't be included in notes - if they typed out every single thing, it would be more of a book.  

While I don't give study notes, I give homework questions and tell students that if they can answer the questions and understand their answers, they'll be fine.  Students who watch the videos and/or read the book do fine, and I've had students who watched another video series because they liked the style who also did well.  Students who try to look up individual answers without context, whether they use their books or websites, usually struggle...to me, if the notes look exactly like what you posted, they're more 'facts without context (or drawings - I'm a big fan of drawings to learn biology)' and would probably be more confusing and harder to remember than a coherent lecture or a chapter in a textbook.  

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Here's something to think about.  You have goal of learning to take notes. The pre made notes were not from her. Go back and use them as part of her own Cornell notes. If needed, go look that up and watch some quick videos on what they are.  let her learn from the mistakes she made this time. You can adjust the weight of this quiz for final grade. So, watch the videos again and make notes. talk back to the video as you go along (as a study aide for self of course).  She made need to learn that she benefits from hearing a lecture again from recording.   Even my super genius oldest (who has ocd, anxiety, and a whole bunch of stuff) had to learn to get past the struggle of first exams in high school.  She still managed to somehow get really high gpa in college and graduate.  I was more in the process over product for early part of grade 9 until I was sure she was ready for more of it to count for semester and final grades. 

 

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