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13 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Exactly. This is why I'm saying that this movie actually seems better than lots of other movies, because at least they were likely mindful of the issues, given the message of the film. I bet there have been lots of movies made where the director just told an 11 year old to do suggestive stuff that made her uncomfortable with precisely zero time spent on what they were doing and why. That's how kids learn that their sexuality determines their worth and that's how they learn that on movie sets, you do what you're told. 

Has anyone seen interviews with the actual kids? (I haven't. I also haven't seen the movie, which I now kind of want to see...) 

I don't want to watch those movies either. 

Being better isn't the same as okay, you know?

And honestly, what the kids think about it doesn't matter to me. 

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This is my last comment on the subject, and I'll shut up. I'm honestly shocked at the number of posters who seem to think this whole thing is somehow acceptable because it's art... it has a message...

That the director and all the powers of the entertainment industry behind this film thought a GREAT way to raise awareness about sexual exploitation of girls is to—literally—sexually exploit girls say

For comparison, here is a clip of a dance troupe that won their category at a dance competition. The freeze frame in the link doesn't begin to show the extent of the sexuality in this dance (including

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would guess any movie with a kid has the chance the kid was treated badly 😕 . 

True, heck anything with a kid has that chance. But there is a differnce between "someone on set might have treated them badly" and deliberately choosing to watch them being treated badly. 

My mail delivery person MIGHT molest kids. I don't know. But if he does, I'm not going to sit down with popcorn to watch him do it. 

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Well, but the point is that a movie SHOWING something like this might not make it LIKELIER that they were abused on set. 

But it means I am then an active, willing participant in watching it. If I don't think adults should watch kids doing certain things, then watching this is me knowingly violating that. If I watch something else, and then find out that they were abused in the making of it, I won't watch it again. Etc. Knowingly participating in what, to me, is wrong, is different than accidentally being on the periphery of it. 

I don't find it compelling to say that well, other kids might be exploited too, so might as well participate in the exploitation of these kids. 

 

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19 hours ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I know, but I am not really willing to boycott people who are still alive, either... for one thing, whatever I do, they'll be filthy rich, probably. And also, I do think it's morally OK to consider the work of art apart from the creator. (I know that's debatable. That just tends to be where I fall in the argument.) 

This is just me talking about the way I personally deal with things I find morally questionable (or worse).  I do not use them.  I don't buy them and I don't watch them for free either.  I don't watch TV.  I choose what/whom I will watch [on the internet] and read on a case by case basis.  Yes, there are artists whom I never have and never will watch.  Call me whatever name you prefer.  I walk the walk.  I don't think I'm alone, either.  That said, sure, there are hypocrites.  That doesn't mean everyone with an opinion is a hypocrite.

I believe that what one participates in has an effect beyond momentary interest / enjoyment.  I believe one becomes a part of it and it becomes a part of the person.

I agree with the individual who said you need to draw the line differently when you're talking about children.

Wherever this is made, it is well-known that Hollywood is a cesspool of exploitation of children and other relatively powerless people.  Many people in the USA choose to put on blinders for the sake of momentary fun.  I don't.

And FTR I am not one of the people who posted on fb about this film.  My only comment on others' fb posts was that I don't use Netflix for multiple reasons.

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

So you don’t watch Hollywood movies? I wasn’t calling you any names... just saying I personally don’t live my life that way.

(And I think this movie is French. So not a Hollywood movie.)

I know it's French.  The point is that this is not just a French issue.  For me, it's not something I can ignore because it happens "over there."  It happens here too.

I am very selective about the movies I choose to watch, and I rarely desire to watch any.  That said, I do let my teens make some of these choices for themselves (within limits), and I will accompany them even though I would not have personally chosen the movies they choose.  I'm trying to raise humans with minds of their own.

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All I can say is it’s fricken hard to raise a girl who likes dance. It was hard to find a studio that had a) wasn’t competition driven and b) had classy costumes for all of their routines. We get to see all of the studios performances at the recital and dd always bought the dvd/digital rights to watch them all over and over. I would have been mad to have suggestive dance costumes and routines from competitions creep in. I remember one day when she was really little and we were at a convention center for a science expo and there was a dance competition happening next door and there were tons of girls in full makeup and costume all of the place and I just couldn’t believe some of the costumes. It reminded me of those little girl beauty pageants. Too much too soon. 

I was one of the prudes complaining about JLo’s super bowl performance. We not only watch World of Dance, we attended one of the tours when it came to our area. There was surprisingly no suggestive dance anywhere to be found. Suggestive dance is something that is created for the audience, not for the love of dance. 

I live in a city filled with suggestive dance. A local strip club thinks it’s hilarious to put up a billboard every June to recruit recent high school graduates. There’s only so much I can do.

Sexualizing young girls is a problem. I have a daughter that will always be petite and look young for her age. She’s going to have to learn how to handle herself. 

I haven’t watched the movie. I don’t plan to. I’m not going to boycott Netflix either. I think their choice of advertisements compared to the French Ads says more about US audiences or what Netflix thinks of them than Netflix itself. 

And this is where my position on free speech and on movies that push boundaries to provoke a conversation, thought or change and my struggle to not shelter but to prevent my daughter from receiving the world’s messaging as to what is valued in a woman conflict. It’s a message worth hearing. Disruption and making people uncomfortable seems to be a popular way to get a message across these days. It’s not the only way. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 3:04 PM, gardenmom5 said:

 Then there are people like you who think "it's not a big deal".

We should all be careful to not use quotation marks when we are not actually quoting the previous poster. 

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I know this conversation played itself out a bit, but I finally watched it... and it was a fascinating film. I had read several things about it and seen the poorly done mash ups meant to shock and the crappy Netflix original trailer that gave me the mistaken initial impression that it was a reality show. But the truth of it was different than I anticipated. I thought the kids - especially the girl playing Amy - were great actors. The way that everyone and everything was such a mix. Not a single person in this was terrible. I had thought the grandmother would turn out to be really evil or something. Or the mom. Or one of the girls. But it never fell into that trap. Neither the home life nor the kids were all bad or all good. The way she became the instigator was really interesting to me and the way that the group turned on her. And just generally her own sense of being stuck between two worlds. It was even more about the immigrant - not even experience, but psychology, than I anticipated. I thought the best moments were the ones that really focused on the young actor - especially when they melded the different ways that people were moving and dancing around her. Like, the shaking with the water turning into the dancing. Or the dancing at the wedding at the end turning into the children playing.

One of the things that was striking to me is that all the things they get in trouble for, the rival group, who are maybe just three or so years older, do as well, and don't have any fall out for - chatting up the boys, dancing, posting on social media, etc. 

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24 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I know this conversation played itself out a bit, but I finally watched it... and it was a fascinating film. I had read several things about it and seen the poorly done mash ups meant to shock and the crappy Netflix original trailer that gave me the mistaken initial impression that it was a reality show. But the truth of it was different than I anticipated. I thought the kids - especially the girl playing Amy - were great actors. The way that everyone and everything was such a mix. Not a single person in this was terrible. I had thought the grandmother would turn out to be really evil or something. Or the mom. Or one of the girls. But it never fell into that trap. Neither the home life nor the kids were all bad or all good. The way she became the instigator was really interesting to me and the way that the group turned on her. And just generally her own sense of being stuck between two worlds. It was even more about the immigrant - not even experience, but psychology, than I anticipated. I thought the best moments were the ones that really focused on the young actor - especially when they melded the different ways that people were moving and dancing around her. Like, the shaking with the water turning into the dancing. Or the dancing at the wedding at the end turning into the children playing.

One of the things that was striking to me is that all the things they get in trouble for, the rival group, who are maybe just three or so years older, do as well, and don't have any fall out for - chatting up the boys, dancing, posting on social media, etc. 

Thank you.  I was starting to worry I'm just a terrible, horrible person because I thought it was really well done.  Not without ethical concerns, but overall, a really well done movie.  

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Haven't watched it.  Don't plan to watch it.  And I won't be canceling Netflix.  I have more issues with another streaming company, and no, it isnt Amazon Prime either, and am not happy that I may be getting it S part of a package I can't separate even though thd main thing I am buying is not any type of entertainment but rather a utility.

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19 hours ago, Terabith said:

Thank you.  I was starting to worry I'm just a terrible, horrible person because I thought it was really well done.  Not without ethical concerns, but overall, a really well done movie.  

Same!

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No one was saying that it was or wasn’t a really well done movie, whatever that means. It’s what they were having 11 year olds doing in the movie that was the problem. 

Edited by Fifiruth
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20 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

No one was saying that it was or wasn’t a really well done movie, whatever that means. It’s what they were having 11 year olds doing in the movie that was the problem. 

Yeah....I keep seeing people/articles saying "but it's a well done film with a great message" as if that means I can't have ethical concerns about the minor actors. 

And now, the new thing I'm seeing is that if you don't like the movie it is because not only are you a QAnon follower, but you are racist and anti-muslim. Sigh 

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52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah....I keep seeing people/articles saying "but it's a well done film with a great message" as if that means I can't have ethical concerns about the minor actors. 

And now, the new thing I'm seeing is that if you don't like the movie it is because not only are you a QAnon follower, but you are racist and anti-muslim. Sigh 

That's pretty much the state of things today. As someone who leans center right on many (certainly not all) issues, I rarely engage with anyone on much of anything anymore. It's simply not worth it the bother when you all too often--even here--are automatically ascribed the very worst motives for every opinion you have no matter how reasoned. It's a shame, too, because I've changed my mind on some issues as a  result of listening to people on the "other side." But now I rarely bother. It's a shame.

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26 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

That's pretty much the state of things today. As someone who leans center right on many (certainly not all) issues, I rarely engage with anyone on much of anything anymore. It's simply not worth it the bother when you all too often--even here--are automatically ascribed the very worst motives for every opinion you have no matter how reasoned. It's a shame, too, because I've changed my mind on some issues as a  result of listening to people on the "other side." But now I rarely bother. It's a shame.

I can't think of anyone on the board right now to whom I would ascribe bad motives. That's why I love it! Most everyone here is very thoughtful. It's good for me to hear all the different perspectives.

FWIW, I've liked posts from both sides of this debate.

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This issue has been percolating in my mind for a few days.

Here's what has come out of the percolation:

There is room for nuance and reasonable disagreement with regards to the movie itself. I think it had a worthy aim, but that aim could have been met without putting everything on screen that went on screen and there are real concerns with the ways young girls were exploited as tools in getting the message across. I personally believe the harm side of the equation outbalances the benefit side but can respect thoughtful opinions to the contrary.

With regards to Netflix, their marketing choices were horrific and 100% exploitative of the young actors. They chose marketing materials meant to both shock and titillate.

Netflix has one overarching goal: to rake in lots of money. I credit them in this fiasco with no more merit-worthy aim.

Their marketing was entirely inappropriate and exploitative, they have earned the ire of customers who choose to cancel and I hope that enough do cancel that they will be more thoughtful about their marketing ethics in the future.

Edited by maize
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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

Who in the world on this board said you have bad motives? Lots of posters on this very thread have engaged with you and other people on the opposite side. As a reward, I've been told that I'm supporting entertainment designed for pedophiles. You tell me who's being ascribed the worst motives... 

I am making a general observation based on many years as a lurker and poster. While I said "even here," my post, however, was not geared exclusively to this forum. As I said, it's a general observation.

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23 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Not a super useful statistic without knowing how big the usual rate is, though!!

The article states that it is in comparison to average daily rates.  

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40 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

The article states that it is in comparison to average daily rates.  

 

Right, but if normally they have 1 cancellation a day and now they have 9, that's not the same thing at all as if normally they have 100 cancellations a day and now they have 900.

You need the percentage AND the raw numbers to get an accurate picture.

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