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Terabith
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I keep imagining the exact scenario presented of a 50yo man ogling these girls on set from behind a camera and a bunch of people wanting to make sure they and their parents were comfortable with all of it and ensuring that the girls understood it was all okay because it's happening on a movie set. 🤢

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

I don't think they'd be LOOKING for it, although they may be curious about sex. But if you're curious about sex, you can stumble on it. 

 

 

You don't have to be curious about it, just about other stuff. I ended up teaching my DD about rule 34 very early because very innocent fandoms quickly get into not innocent content. Age 8 is probably about right, if not on the late side, because by then, kids can do an internet search, and even the best filters don't get it all, especially not when you're taking fan art and fanfiction. 

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57 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

 

 

 

You don't have to be curious about it, just about other stuff. I ended up teaching my DD about rule 34 very early because very innocent fandoms quickly get into not innocent content. Age 8 is probably about right, if not on the late side, because by then, kids can do an internet search, and even the best filters don't get it all, especially not when you're taking fan art and fanfiction. 

(So, what's rule 34?)

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I don't do Netflix for multiple reasons relating to their choices.  I will not even consider watching this movie, and based on the near unanimous reactions I'm seeing, I assume I'd find it objectionable if I did watch it.

Award winning whatever.  1999's American Beauty won Best Film among other awards, but I think it was absolutely disgusting.

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I watched the movie in full today and then cancelled our Netflix account. I’d seen some conservative friends up in arms about it previously, but I’d blown it off bc they tend to be up in arms about lots of things that don’t ruffle my feathers. 
 

We’ve had a Netflix account since they sent you cds in the mail, long before streaming was a thing. We are still mostly at home being in a covid hotspot, and I’m not excited about canceling a streaming service right now. 
 

It’s a well done movie. The clips are less shocking when you see them spread out and in context. The movie hits on some worthy themes. 
 

However, the ends don’t justify the means here. There were other ways the points could have been made. I thought the movie Thirteen did a good job showing the dangers of social media and the sexualization of young teens without the gross factor. I know it’s hard to make judgements on what is art and what is going too far. If children are involved, I think it’s better not to push those boundaries. 
 

 

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Not everyone saying they think it is wrong to film under age girls doing these things, and then distribute that film for adults to watch, is being a total hypocrite. I and others have said we ALSO are concerned with the sexualization of children in other ways, including dance studios, clothing, advertisements, television shows, other movies, etc etc etc. 

Not everyone upset by this falls into some neat little category. I know I'm nowhere NEAR being a conservative as was assumed above, I am morally against shows like Bachelorette and many others, etc etc. 

I can not like this, and not be some pearl clutching church lady. And no, I'm not going to watch it for the same reasons I'm not going to pay for a prostitute just to experience it before discussing it. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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4 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

There are multiple interviews with the woman who made the film and her reason for doing so.  Not picking on you here, I just think it would behoove everyone to try to read as much of what she has said and perhaps even watch the damn movie before screeching. Becausefor me, it really lessons my opinions of people who instantly begin a rant and then admit to not seeing or reading whatever’s being discussed. And yes, that applies to a topic as serious as this. And no, you don’t know what I think of the movie just because of my politics or which posts I’ve liked.

Im just here to roll my eyes at most of this, anyways, lol. All over the internet, people are puffed up like broody hens, squawking about how aghast they are. They won’t cancel their Netflix, they’ll still watch their asinine reality shows where women are sexualized and they’ll cheer about shows that are nothing more  than men brutalizing women, they’ll make excuses for their political leaders who mock the physically/mentally challenged and break nearly every one of His commandments, they’ll defend religious leaders who can’t keep their pants zipped. The roar of the hypocrites is deafening.

 

wow. . . . I just read a post by a woman who was s3xually abused, repeatedly, for years.  This movie, has been extremely triggering for her.  Then there are people like you who think "it's not a big deal".

 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

And I don't know what exactly Netflix will learn from this fallout... maybe not to pick up edgy French fare, because I bet it has LOTS of other shows that are more deeply damaging that haven't triggered this kind of outcry. 

But I don't think it's hypocritical to worry about this movie. And I really hope the kids filming it won't, in fact, regret it or be traumatized. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one does regret it 😕 . 

TBH I don't think Netflix will learn anything from it because I think it fell out exactly how they intended. They promoted the movie using a very provocative controversial poster, created a huge controversy over it, and drove people to watch the movie. A movie that probably very few people would have watched otherwise, honestly.  I doubt the amount of people actually cancelling Netflix will make that much of an impact.  

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And there are folks who were sexually abused for years in ways that a lot of people would struggle to believe were possible who see the movie as potentially problematic but not necessarily over the top and also well done.  
 

I watched the movie.  I haven’t read interviews with people involved in it.  I also realize it wasn’t filmed in the US and culture matters. I don’t love it, but I also think reasonable people can disagree.  I think people can totally say, “I don’t approve of where the line was drawn for this film,” without demanding other people cancel Netflix for carrying it or saying it needs to be investigated by Department of Justice.  

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1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

wow. . . . I just read a post by a woman who was s3xually abused, repeatedly, for years.  This movie, has been extremely triggering for her.  Then there are people like you who think "it's not a big deal".

 

I don't think anyone is saying it's not a big deal.  It is a big deal.  But so is the message the director is trying to convey.  

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5 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

There are multiple interviews with the woman who made the film and her reason for doing so.  Not picking on you here, I just think it would behoove everyone to try to read as much of what she has said and perhaps even watch the damn movie before screeching. Becausefor me, it really lessons my opinions of people who instantly begin a rant and then admit to not seeing or reading whatever’s being discussed. And yes, that applies to a topic as serious as this. And no, you don’t know what I think of the movie just because of my politics or which posts I’ve liked.

Im just here to roll my eyes at most of this, anyways, lol. All over the internet, people are puffed up like broody hens, squawking about how aghast they are. They won’t cancel their Netflix, they’ll still watch their asinine reality shows where women are sexualized and they’ll cheer about shows that are nothing more  than men brutalizing women, they’ll make excuses for their political leaders who mock the physically/mentally challenged and break nearly every one of His commandments, they’ll defend religious leaders who can’t keep their pants zipped. The roar of the hypocrites is deafening.

 

 

This is a disgusting take on the controversy.  First to categorize people's objections as "screeching" or being "broody hens" which are both sexist statements.  I hope you examine your own misogyny here.

Then to assume that people won't cancel Netflix (I did btw).  or that they commonly watch "asinine reality shows where women are sexualized" or "men brutalizing women."  I for one hate all reality shows because of the types of themes that are so common, including stereotyping and looking down on women like you're doing.  And just to point out, the things you mentioned there involved ADULTS and we're talking about CHILDREN.

Assuming everyone is a hypocrite is sure an easy way to pretend that what we're talking about doesn't matter.  And yes, I watched it.  Yes, I cancelled.  Yes, I'm horrified that it got made and I'm even more horrified by people defending this.  I know what sexual exploitation and abuse of children is and does because it happened to me.

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Quote

Did you know Dickens tried to get his wife locked away in an insane asylum? Well, he did. I bet that wasn't great for her. I'm not going to stop reading his novels for all that

 

Of course, it's a different issue when the problematic creator is dead and thus beyond caring about their profit margins.

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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I know, but I am not really willing to boycott people who are still alive, either... for one thing, whatever I do, they'll be filthy rich, probably. And also, I do think it's morally OK to consider the work of art apart from the creator. (I know that's debatable. That just tends to be where I fall in the argument.) 

To me it isn't about the creator - it's about my own actions. 

There is a difference to me between watching a movie made by a person who in their personal life does something I disagree with, and watching something I feel it is morally wrong for me to watch.  At that point I feel I'm participating in the exploitation. I don't feel adults should watch those girls do those things. Me doing it makes ME culpable in something I disagree with. It's not about the creator's ethics, it's about my own ethics and what I will participate in. 

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22 minutes ago, kand said:

 

I fall in not a single one of the categories you list above— I don’t watch reality shows, I won’t watch anything like Game of Thrones or any of those other shows where assaulting women is part of the normal fair, I would never in 1 million zillion years have any of my kids participate in dance competitions where this kind of thing was happening, and I certainly don’t defend any political or religious leaders who are morally reprehensible human beings. 

I read one interview with the director of the movie, and I actually think the purpose and concept behind the movie is a good, very valuable one. I just disagree with some of the choices made in the making of it. I think the line was crossed several times and it didn’t need to be, and the ends doesn’t justify the means.

Yes, all this. 

And the idea that I have to watch it to have that opinion is crazy. I don't have to watch a snuff film to know I don't agree with it, or try heroin to know I am against using it. 

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9 minutes ago, Danae said:

My kid’s stage combat instructor is also a sex-scene safety coach and choreographer. I find it absolutely outrageous that you’re comparing his work to grooming. It is the exact opposite. Most of what he does is, as for stage combat, making it look like damaging things are happening without them actually happening. Using camera angles (for film) or staging angles, using cut always, all sorts of things that trick the viewer’s mind into thinking they saw things that the actors don’t really do. 
 

It’s a role in the production team that was introduced relatively recently in response to the horrific way women and girls were treated for years in film production. People in that role are a huge positive for actors, including child actors. 

Well I find it outrageous that there is apparently a need for there to be a job for someone to make it look like (kids?) are in sexual situations on film even though they aren't, so we can both sit in our respective houses and be outraged.

But lol at Hollywood being a newly safe place for kids and women because someone now has a set job of "keeping them safe" when the director wants it to look like they are being exploited but they are fine and don't even have any idea what is being cut to look like!

Every defense of this practice makes it all sound worse and worse.

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13 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Exactly. This is why I'm saying that this movie actually seems better than lots of other movies, because at least they were likely mindful of the issues, given the message of the film. I bet there have been lots of movies made where the director just told an 11 year old to do suggestive stuff that made her uncomfortable with precisely zero time spent on what they were doing and why. That's how kids learn that their sexuality determines their worth and that's how they learn that on movie sets, you do what you're told. 

Has anyone seen interviews with the actual kids? (I haven't. I also haven't seen the movie, which I now kind of want to see...) 

I don't want to watch those movies either. 

Being better isn't the same as okay, you know?

And honestly, what the kids think about it doesn't matter to me. 

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10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would guess any movie with a kid has the chance the kid was treated badly 😕 . 

True, heck anything with a kid has that chance. But there is a differnce between "someone on set might have treated them badly" and deliberately choosing to watch them being treated badly. 

My mail delivery person MIGHT molest kids. I don't know. But if he does, I'm not going to sit down with popcorn to watch him do it. 

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Well, but the point is that a movie SHOWING something like this might not make it LIKELIER that they were abused on set. 

But it means I am then an active, willing participant in watching it. If I don't think adults should watch kids doing certain things, then watching this is me knowingly violating that. If I watch something else, and then find out that they were abused in the making of it, I won't watch it again. Etc. Knowingly participating in what, to me, is wrong, is different than accidentally being on the periphery of it. 

I don't find it compelling to say that well, other kids might be exploited too, so might as well participate in the exploitation of these kids. 

 

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19 hours ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, I know, but I am not really willing to boycott people who are still alive, either... for one thing, whatever I do, they'll be filthy rich, probably. And also, I do think it's morally OK to consider the work of art apart from the creator. (I know that's debatable. That just tends to be where I fall in the argument.) 

This is just me talking about the way I personally deal with things I find morally questionable (or worse).  I do not use them.  I don't buy them and I don't watch them for free either.  I don't watch TV.  I choose what/whom I will watch [on the internet] and read on a case by case basis.  Yes, there are artists whom I never have and never will watch.  Call me whatever name you prefer.  I walk the walk.  I don't think I'm alone, either.  That said, sure, there are hypocrites.  That doesn't mean everyone with an opinion is a hypocrite.

I believe that what one participates in has an effect beyond momentary interest / enjoyment.  I believe one becomes a part of it and it becomes a part of the person.

I agree with the individual who said you need to draw the line differently when you're talking about children.

Wherever this is made, it is well-known that Hollywood is a cesspool of exploitation of children and other relatively powerless people.  Many people in the USA choose to put on blinders for the sake of momentary fun.  I don't.

And FTR I am not one of the people who posted on fb about this film.  My only comment on others' fb posts was that I don't use Netflix for multiple reasons.

Edited by SKL
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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

So you don’t watch Hollywood movies? I wasn’t calling you any names... just saying I personally don’t live my life that way.

(And I think this movie is French. So not a Hollywood movie.)

I know it's French.  The point is that this is not just a French issue.  For me, it's not something I can ignore because it happens "over there."  It happens here too.

I am very selective about the movies I choose to watch, and I rarely desire to watch any.  That said, I do let my teens make some of these choices for themselves (within limits), and I will accompany them even though I would not have personally chosen the movies they choose.  I'm trying to raise humans with minds of their own.

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I know this conversation played itself out a bit, but I finally watched it... and it was a fascinating film. I had read several things about it and seen the poorly done mash ups meant to shock and the crappy Netflix original trailer that gave me the mistaken initial impression that it was a reality show. But the truth of it was different than I anticipated. I thought the kids - especially the girl playing Amy - were great actors. The way that everyone and everything was such a mix. Not a single person in this was terrible. I had thought the grandmother would turn out to be really evil or something. Or the mom. Or one of the girls. But it never fell into that trap. Neither the home life nor the kids were all bad or all good. The way she became the instigator was really interesting to me and the way that the group turned on her. And just generally her own sense of being stuck between two worlds. It was even more about the immigrant - not even experience, but psychology, than I anticipated. I thought the best moments were the ones that really focused on the young actor - especially when they melded the different ways that people were moving and dancing around her. Like, the shaking with the water turning into the dancing. Or the dancing at the wedding at the end turning into the children playing.

One of the things that was striking to me is that all the things they get in trouble for, the rival group, who are maybe just three or so years older, do as well, and don't have any fall out for - chatting up the boys, dancing, posting on social media, etc. 

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24 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I know this conversation played itself out a bit, but I finally watched it... and it was a fascinating film. I had read several things about it and seen the poorly done mash ups meant to shock and the crappy Netflix original trailer that gave me the mistaken initial impression that it was a reality show. But the truth of it was different than I anticipated. I thought the kids - especially the girl playing Amy - were great actors. The way that everyone and everything was such a mix. Not a single person in this was terrible. I had thought the grandmother would turn out to be really evil or something. Or the mom. Or one of the girls. But it never fell into that trap. Neither the home life nor the kids were all bad or all good. The way she became the instigator was really interesting to me and the way that the group turned on her. And just generally her own sense of being stuck between two worlds. It was even more about the immigrant - not even experience, but psychology, than I anticipated. I thought the best moments were the ones that really focused on the young actor - especially when they melded the different ways that people were moving and dancing around her. Like, the shaking with the water turning into the dancing. Or the dancing at the wedding at the end turning into the children playing.

One of the things that was striking to me is that all the things they get in trouble for, the rival group, who are maybe just three or so years older, do as well, and don't have any fall out for - chatting up the boys, dancing, posting on social media, etc. 

Thank you.  I was starting to worry I'm just a terrible, horrible person because I thought it was really well done.  Not without ethical concerns, but overall, a really well done movie.  

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Haven't watched it.  Don't plan to watch it.  And I won't be canceling Netflix.  I have more issues with another streaming company, and no, it isnt Amazon Prime either, and am not happy that I may be getting it S part of a package I can't separate even though thd main thing I am buying is not any type of entertainment but rather a utility.

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20 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

No one was saying that it was or wasn’t a really well done movie, whatever that means. It’s what they were having 11 year olds doing in the movie that was the problem. 

Yeah....I keep seeing people/articles saying "but it's a well done film with a great message" as if that means I can't have ethical concerns about the minor actors. 

And now, the new thing I'm seeing is that if you don't like the movie it is because not only are you a QAnon follower, but you are racist and anti-muslim. Sigh 

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52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah....I keep seeing people/articles saying "but it's a well done film with a great message" as if that means I can't have ethical concerns about the minor actors. 

And now, the new thing I'm seeing is that if you don't like the movie it is because not only are you a QAnon follower, but you are racist and anti-muslim. Sigh 

That's pretty much the state of things today. As someone who leans center right on many (certainly not all) issues, I rarely engage with anyone on much of anything anymore. It's simply not worth it the bother when you all too often--even here--are automatically ascribed the very worst motives for every opinion you have no matter how reasoned. It's a shame, too, because I've changed my mind on some issues as a  result of listening to people on the "other side." But now I rarely bother. It's a shame.

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26 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

That's pretty much the state of things today. As someone who leans center right on many (certainly not all) issues, I rarely engage with anyone on much of anything anymore. It's simply not worth it the bother when you all too often--even here--are automatically ascribed the very worst motives for every opinion you have no matter how reasoned. It's a shame, too, because I've changed my mind on some issues as a  result of listening to people on the "other side." But now I rarely bother. It's a shame.

I can't think of anyone on the board right now to whom I would ascribe bad motives. That's why I love it! Most everyone here is very thoughtful. It's good for me to hear all the different perspectives.

FWIW, I've liked posts from both sides of this debate.

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This issue has been percolating in my mind for a few days.

Here's what has come out of the percolation:

There is room for nuance and reasonable disagreement with regards to the movie itself. I think it had a worthy aim, but that aim could have been met without putting everything on screen that went on screen and there are real concerns with the ways young girls were exploited as tools in getting the message across. I personally believe the harm side of the equation outbalances the benefit side but can respect thoughtful opinions to the contrary.

With regards to Netflix, their marketing choices were horrific and 100% exploitative of the young actors. They chose marketing materials meant to both shock and titillate.

Netflix has one overarching goal: to rake in lots of money. I credit them in this fiasco with no more merit-worthy aim.

Their marketing was entirely inappropriate and exploitative, they have earned the ire of customers who choose to cancel and I hope that enough do cancel that they will be more thoughtful about their marketing ethics in the future.

Edited by maize
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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

Who in the world on this board said you have bad motives? Lots of posters on this very thread have engaged with you and other people on the opposite side. As a reward, I've been told that I'm supporting entertainment designed for pedophiles. You tell me who's being ascribed the worst motives... 

I am making a general observation based on many years as a lurker and poster. While I said "even here," my post, however, was not geared exclusively to this forum. As I said, it's a general observation.

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40 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

The article states that it is in comparison to average daily rates.  

 

Right, but if normally they have 1 cancellation a day and now they have 9, that's not the same thing at all as if normally they have 100 cancellations a day and now they have 900.

You need the percentage AND the raw numbers to get an accurate picture.

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