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14 hours ago, Frances said:

But it seems like it would have been better then to make it as a documentary, filming something that is already happening. It does seem worse to me to make a film where young actresses are being instructed to act this way for the sake of the film. I mean it is all bad, but this does seem worse to me.

Exactly

4 hours ago, maize said:

Except it isn't a documentary--an adult DID do the choreography for Cuties. An adult coached those crotch shots. An adult filmed them. For other adults to watch.

This

4 hours ago, Quill said:

I have not seen the movie, just the trailer linked in this thread. IMO, this is the result in a culture that praised a 50-year-old woman pole dancing in a thong for Superbowl and Shakira wrapping ropes around her wrists while dancing sexily. They were praised for “looking good”, especially JLo, “Still f***able at 50!”. I was one of those prudish people who were very uncomfortable with that p@rn-related performance at an event known to be a huge trafficking event. (Even though it seems crazy to recall arguing about Superbowl shows just 8 months ago...)

 

Yup. It's just another part of the spectrum.

4 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

That the director and all the powers of the entertainment industry behind this film thought a GREAT way to raise awareness about sexual exploitation of girls is to—literally—sexually exploit girls says a lot about how messed up our culture is. 

 

 

Exactly. 

And I'm not okay with how girls dance in competitions either. I've seen just the staged photos from "picture day" that highschool friends post of their daughters and I was nauseated. I felt dirty seeing the photos. It was basically child porn. And that was just the still photos!

So not okay with that, and not okay with coaching actresses who are underage to do things like that. Even if they don't knwo what they are doing at the time of the film, they will someday. And look back and realize that they were being sexually exploited. That can't feel good or be healthy. 

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This is my last comment on the subject, and I'll shut up. I'm honestly shocked at the number of posters who seem to think this whole thing is somehow acceptable because it's art... it has a message...

That the director and all the powers of the entertainment industry behind this film thought a GREAT way to raise awareness about sexual exploitation of girls is to—literally—sexually exploit girls say

I haven't seen the film, but my understanding is that it does have scenes with girls dancing in very sexually suggestive ways. I get that the message of the film is opposing the sexualization of

1 hour ago, Valley Girl said:

I don't think it should matter why. What matters is that...finally!...maybe a line has been crossed that is waking large numbers of people up to a serious social problem. We've recently had massive protests in the streets because a line was finally crossed that worked up enough people to demand change. God willing, the crossing of THIS line will ignite much-needed change and social reflection, too.

I do hope the conversation in broader society will move beyond this particular film and to things like inappropriate dance costumes and choreography, child beauty pageants, clothing, etc. But I’m not very hopeful that it will because I think there are other agendas out there driving much of the criticism of this film. 

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Sadly, I think the timing for this is very poor.

While all these people are going on social media talking about how they've just cancelled netflix, they're also going on about how the dance industry is an exploitive mess for children and parents should take better care than expose their kids to such garbage.

Today.  While the dance and arts industry has been literally shut down since March.  Businesses are folding left and right and no one knows how the arts community is going to survive.  I have one child in college who wants nothing more than to teach dance and I wonder if there will be dance studios for her to teach at in two years! I have a son in high school who wants to dance professionally- will those opportunities still be there for him?! He already has a difficult road being a male dancer for so many reasons.  

I really appreciate those who have watched the movie and shared what it's about- I just wish they'd figured out a different vehicle to present the subject matter than the world of dance.  The industry is on a precipice right now and I fear that the outrage may tip things in the wrong direction.  

We will not be cancelling Netflix.  I won't be watching the movie, it's not the type of thing I would watch in the first place. But I am going to spend some time not on social media for a few days so I can stop seeing so many people bragging about how they're cancelling Netflix and that they think parents who let their kids participate in competition dance are scum.  Nice.

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1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

There is an interview available that goes into how they handled the filming with the actresses involved.   They evidently did a lot to make sure the girls were okay and comfortable with the process.   I haven't seen the movie so I don't really want to say anything more until I do. 

That is called grooming in any other context. 

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5 minutes ago, EmseB said:

That is called grooming in any other context. 

Seriously. “Here honey. Rub your vagina like this  You're okay, right? You’re doing great. Now put your finger in your mouth and pretend to suck on it while you stare into the camera. You’re comfortable, right? This is going to be a great movie because of you.”

People would be outraged to find out some random man persuaded these girls to do these things for his own pleasure. But in service of a movie it’s okay? To be defended and applauded? Please. 
 

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1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

There is an interview available that goes into how they handled the filming with the actresses involved.   They evidently did a lot to make sure the girls were okay and comfortable with the process.   I haven't seen the movie so I don't really want to say anything more until I do. 

 

Sitting down with a child and explaining them how to dance provocatively, suck on their fingers, frame their vagina for the camera, etc and then talking to them about how they feel and that it's all okay because it's for a good reason is textbook grooming.  This is the exact thing abusers do.  "It's just this little thing.  It will make me happy.  See, nothing bad happened.  How do you feel?  Doesn't that make you feel good that you made me happy?"  Just because a director, psychologist or parent is the one saying it doesn't make it any less grooming and child exploitation than the sex offender down the street that everyone imagines as some creepy old guy.  Because most abusers are in fact people who put themselves in positions of trust.

This movie DID normalize this for these girls.  Making this movie had them doing all of these actions and told them it was okay if it was for a good reason.

 

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47 minutes ago, Lady Marmalade said:

Sadly, I think the timing for this is very poor.

While all these people are going on social media talking about how they've just cancelled netflix, they're also going on about how the dance industry is an exploitive mess for children and parents should take better care than expose their kids to such garbage.

Today.  While the dance and arts industry has been literally shut down since March.  Businesses are folding left and right and no one knows how the arts community is going to survive.  I have one child in college who wants nothing more than to teach dance and I wonder if there will be dance studios for her to teach at in two years! I have a son in high school who wants to dance professionally- will those opportunities still be there for him?! He already has a difficult road being a male dancer for so many reasons.  

I really appreciate those who have watched the movie and shared what it's about- I just wish they'd figured out a different vehicle to present the subject matter than the world of dance.  The industry is on a precipice right now and I fear that the outrage may tip things in the wrong direction.  

We will not be cancelling Netflix.  I won't be watching the movie, it's not the type of thing I would watch in the first place. But I am going to spend some time not on social media for a few days so I can stop seeing so many people bragging about how they're cancelling Netflix and that they think parents who let their kids participate in competition dance are scum.  Nice.

I hope things work out for your DD. Really. Talented teachers are needed. Lots of businesses are struggling right now though and may not be around when the dust settles. If the outrage causes parents to demand a change in how things are done or if it forces dance studios or the people who run the competitions in question to have to rethink how they do things when they eventually reopen,  that's a win. I keep going back to the other protests. Businesses are being affected by that, too. Does that mean the timing is poor there are well? (I'm not expecting you to say "yes" to that. Just pointing out that ALL of these things affect individuals.)

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I agree with those who call it grooming, though it’s stretching the term. Even though they aren’t trying to set the girls up for future sexual acts to meet their own sexual needs, they are setting the girls up to act in sexual ways for their own artistic needs. They might not be sexual needs, but they are needs nonetheless that aren’t in the girls’ best interest.

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I would like to just generally mention that I am a parent of an 11 yr old girl who is about to turn 12, as well as one who turned 10 yesterday.  My girls have friends within the same age set.  

 

 

Absolutely NO member of my girls friend set behave the way described as the behavior in the movie.  

I suppose maybe that we/they just hang out in different circles.  

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A relative posted on FB that she was cancelling Netflix over this movie, so as this relative and I disagree on virtually everything I immediately went to watch it, having read literally nothing else about it.  Then I went back and read all the controversy and felt like I must have watched a completely different movie than they were talking about.  And I have to say it is incredibly frustrating that people keep giving opinions on it when they haven't seen it.  How on earth can you really form a valid opinion based on clips that don't even provide the full context?

First off, Netflix decided on these posters, trailers, and descriptions. They are definitely at fault for their marketing, probably assumed it would generate tons of controversy and drive more traffic to the movie than if they branded it what it really was, a coming of age movie for a girl in a society which gives her two options for womanhood.  There is the strict conservative religion in which a woman has no power (her mom is forced to allow a second wife in the home and has to pretend to not mind it) or a hyper sexualized life in which girls are constantly chasing "likes" on social media.  It is incredibly disturbing and sad, and so well done. The main character is watching and picking up on everything you see, the entire emphasis is on how malleable these young girls are and how the only positive attention these girls see other girls getting are from using their bodies in suggestive ways.  It has incredible empathy for the girls, and makes pretty explicit that they themselves don't understand what they are doing, but are only mimicking what they see as being valued in society.  They don't know the where the line is either of what is appropriate -- adults do, as they encourage and watch them doing mildly sexual dances in the beginning of the movie (which are still wildly inappropriate) but then wind up looking shocked and disgusted when the girls have crossed the line, a line that the girls were not able to see for themselves.  And in the end (spoiler alert)  the main character rejects both rigid, anti-woman choices.  

The scenes are meant to be uncomfortable, because it is meant to draw a clear line between the hyper-sexualization society thinks is normal for woman and where these women as young girls had to learn and internalize all these messages, and to push us past our comfort zone in order to make the connection with society thinks is acceptable for young girls and how it really is just as insidious and sexist. 

I cried at the end, and then ran and got my 20 year old daughter and we watched it together and cried again -- for the child I had been who had grown up with MTV and Cosmopolitan magazines, which all gave me similar messages and wrecked my identity and self esteem for years.   I cried for the elementary age girls I see in dance competitions now, and for the teenage girls taking pictures of themselves in bikinis groping other girls and making duck faces, having learned that that is what gets the most "likes".   And based on the crumbling self esteem of girls who live and die by their instagram followers, I can't help but think this movie gives SUCH an important message.  

 

Edited by SanDiegoMom
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I feel like everyone who is like, "we sang songs with bad words and snuck glances at dirty magazines" is really, really missing, either intentionally or not, all the NOT normal stuff in this movie and how far beyond that kind of normally exploratory stuff the film goes. The things some of the girls are doing would get kids flagged as having been potentially abused themselves by mandatory reporters. Which is the point of the director, I think? How toxic internet sexuality is and how much guidance kids could use around it? But that director then made the decision to exploit tweens to make that point. 

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Did not read the thread, but this goes through the various things in the movie that are of issue.

https://www.pluggedin.com/movie-reviews/cuties-2020/?fbclid=IwAR0xqSvccLt9553MvrDzGQdOFpe3J7JXBimgsjIChgOyrQdaf60rwu7tJ4g

 

Reportedly, the maker of the movie was trying to make a statement against the exploitation of children in this way. However, the movie was made in such a way as to appeal to those with pedophilia tendencies. 

 

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Saying that this movie has a moral so it's okay, nay valuable! to watch, is like saying that certain other movies can really teach us how women shouldn't let the pizza guy in the house when her husband is away.

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16 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

A relative posted on FB that she was cancelling Netflix over this movie, so as this relative and I disagree on virtually everything I immediately went to watch it, having read literally nothing else about it.  Then I went back and read all the controversy and felt like I must have watched a completely different movie than they were talking about.  And I have to say it is incredibly frustrating that people keep giving opinions on it when they haven't seen it.  How on earth can you really form a valid opinion based on clips that don't even provide the full context?

First off, Netflix decided on these posters, trailers, and descriptions. They are definitely at fault for their marketing, probably assumed it would generate tons of controversy and drive more traffic to the movie than if they branded it what it really was, a coming of age movie for a girl in a society which gives her two options for womanhood -- a strict conservative religion in which a woman has no power (her mom is forced to allow a second wife in the home and has to pretend to be ok with it) or a hyper sexualized life where girls are constantly chasing "likes" on social media.  It is incredibly disturbing and sad, and so well done! The main character is watching and picking up on everything you see, the entire emphasis is on how malleable these young girls are and how the only positive attention these girls see other girls getting are from using their bodies in suggestive ways.  It has incredible empathy for the girls, and makes pretty explicit that they themselves don't understand what they are doing, they are only mimicking what they see as being valued in society.  They don't know the line either -- adults do, as they encourage and watch them doing "somewhat" sexual dances in the beginning (which are still inappropriate) but then boo and look shocked and disgusted when the girls have crossed the line, a line that the girls hadn't known about.  And in the end (spoiler alert)  the main character rejects both rigid, anti-woman choices.  

The scenes are meant to be uncomfortable, because it is meant to draw a clear line between the hyper-sexualization society thinks is normal for woman and where these women as young girls had to learn and internalize all these messages.  

I cried at the end, and then ran and got my 20 year old daughter and we watched it together and cried again -- for the child I had been who had grown up with MTV and Cosmopolitan magazines, all giving me the same messages and wrecking my identity and self esteem for years.   I cried for the elementary age girls I see in dance competitions now, and for the teenage girls taking pictures of themselves in bikinis groping other girls and making duck faces, having learned that that is what gets the most "likes".   And based on the crumbling self esteem of girls who live and die by their instagram followers, I can't help but think this movie gives SUCH an important message.  

 

Thank you for your review. You swim upstream from everything else I've read, so I appreciate your thoughts. 

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Excerpt from the Plugged In Review:

 

"When Netflix began to advertise for Cuties, the streaming network chose a hypersexualized image of young girls dressed in provocative clothing, as if they were headed to a strip club. And that was all it took to set the internet ablaze.

And rightfully so.

It is wrong to sexualize young girls. It is wrong to create films that portray young girls as sexual objects, thus fueling pedophilia, the porn industry and sex trafficking. And Cuties does indeed creepily objectify the young girls whose story it tells. Lingering camera shots of the girls’ sensual, stripper-inspired poses are deeply uncomfortable and unsettling. And one apparent teen’s briefly exposed breast in a video has raised legitimate questions about whether that moment might legally constitute child pornography.

If that were all that was happening in Cuties, this could mark the end of our review. But there’s more we need to talk about.   

What’s less apparent in all the conversation about Cuties is that director Maïmouna Doucouré seems to be critiquing the very sexualization that has generated so much controversy. These girls barely know the basics about sex. But they’re imitating what the culture has shown them, and they’re enjoying the apparent (if counterfeit and self-destructive) “power” that objectifying themselves provides.

We see how this sexualization starts at a very young age, fueled by music videos and online social influencers (the same things many young girls are watching today, things that often get a pass by society as “creative freedom”).

We repeatedly watch as the girls view porn and pornographic music videos, a graphic “education” that their parents are clueless about. They giggle and laugh and blush and … really have no idea at all what they’re looking at. Because, well, they’re 11. But that doesn’t stop them from imitating it.   

Amid these deep problems, then, Cuties painfully illustrates the vicious cycle of social media’s influence. As Amy posts provocative (and anatomical) pictures, she receives more and more likes. So, what does that teach her? It teaches her that sex sells. It teaches her that the more likes she receives, the more she is valued.

In the end, a tearful Amy runs away from her dance crew, exchanges her revealing clothes for more modest ones and goes out to jump rope with neighborhood friends. The ending implies that Amy’s carefree, childhood innocence has been terribly sullied by her journey into self-objectification, but that there may yet be hope for her to embrace innocence again.

For those reasons, I think the director meant to spark thoughtful discussion about how we should protect our children against these constant pressures. But while that’s a laudable goal, the film’s path to it is still deeply problematic—which brings us right back to where we started.

Cuties may try, on some level, to critique the sexualization of young girls. But it does so by taking a group of young girls and objectifying them through their dance movements, revealing clothing and life choices. Some of these images are simply shocking—and they’re the ones that have provoked the firestorm around Cuties. The film gratuitously, excessively indulges in the very images and ideas it’s supposedly criticizing. To say that the result is a mixed message is an understatement indeed.

But does anyone of any age really need to see such a graphic portrayal of this problem to know how damaging it is to young girls growing up in this toxic cultural fog today? The answer is clear, especially when we acknowledge the sad fact that certain viewers with a pedophilic predilection for children won’t be watching this film because of its cultural commentary or cautionary message."

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4 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I feel like everyone who is like, "we sang songs with bad words and snuck glances at dirty magazines" is really, really missing, either intentionally or not, all the NOT normal stuff in this movie and how far beyond that kind of normally exploratory stuff the film goes. The things some of the girls are doing would get kids flagged as having been potentially abused themselves by mandatory reporters. Which is the point of the director, I think? How toxic internet sexuality is and how much guidance kids could use around it? But that director then made the decision to exploit tweens to make that point. 

I think there is some naivete about exactly how much these scenes are specifically meant to arouse pedos while providing a cover of plausible deniability. Like, this is a very specific kink that I wish I had no knowledge of that someone(s) are overjoyed that people are debating the legitimate use of.

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Thank you for the review. 

Do you think the girls would have had to do things that scan as exploitative to us in the making of the movie? 

That's my big thing. Scale it back like 20% in the worst parts and it becomes a great movie that you could even maybe watch with your kids to start some discussions. Have her taking a selfie in an outfit that's trying too hard to be grown up and sexy instead of a picture of her vulva. Have her watching MTV for too-grown-up dance moves instead of porn. Have them try to flirt their way out of a situation instead of jumping to seduction....and the bonus would be that THESE (sexy music videos, the desire to look grown up, etc) are things that most kids in my daughter's cohort could relate to, as could their parents. As opposed to this which is so far beyond the norm. 

OR, use 16-18 year old actresses who look young, who are in a very different place developmentally, and for whom this would seem significantly less exploitative. 

 

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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Saying that this movie has a moral so it's okay, nay valuable! to watch, is like saying that certain other movies can really teach us how women shouldn't let the pizza guy in the house when her husband is away.

Oh, no. I disagree. 

I think there is a place for hard and ugly things to be worked out in movies, just like in books. 

I'm thinking of a really rough movie, Girlfight. Actress America Ferrera does a fabulous job as a kid who finds a way out of a horrible life situation through boxing. She gave an interview once where she talked about not accepting roles where her only power came from sexuality.  I have so much respect for that. 

Talking about horrible things in movies is not ALL porn. It just isn't. 

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Just now, square_25 said:

Thank you for the review. 

Do you think the girls would have had to do things that scan as exploitative to us in the making of the movie? I do feel icky about that aspect of it, as well as the audience this movie will attract. 

I felt very icky thinking about the four girls doing the dancing for the movie. But I think I read that all the girls parents were activists who also cared deeply about this message, and my hope is that the fallout from them making this movie would be mitigated by even a few parents that might watch it and say oh wow. I had no idea that the seemingly innocent choices I have made actually are less innocent than they seem.  Or maybe I should not let my kid have instagram. Or dance with that studio. Or maybe I just need to have conversations more with my kid to make sure they are correctly navigating the unfamiliar waters of puberty.  

Most of the parents on this board are very involved in their kids lives.  A lot of the public school kids I see have no parent they trust enough to help them through. They are fragile, desperate for validation, and willing to do anything to have social currency.  If the message gets through this movie (which honestly I don't think a documentary WOULD have the same effect) then it is worth it imo. 

 

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15 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

Why should we watch a movie that sexually exploits young girls in order to be told that it's not ok to sexually exploit young girls? 

 

Exactly. 

9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I do not think pedophiles are a large enough part of the market for arty films to target them explicitly... 

Technically not pedophilia, but the number of adult men who are aroused and attracted to pubescent girls is significant - one of the largest markets for porn, trafficking, etc is underage girls. So yeah, actually, it's a huge market. 

But I don't think that was the target. I think the idea was to be edgy and "important' and yet they missed the forest for the trees. Because at the end of the day, they exploited girls' bodies. The thing they supposedly are against. Exploiting underage girls and sexualizing them for a "good cause" is still not okay. 

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I do not think pedophiles are a large enough part of the market for arty films to target them explicitly... 

I disagree.  I think there are way WAY more of them than anyone wants to admit (or in some cases, realizes. ).  

I think that while in actual numbers that might be true.  In *dollars* probably not.  

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12 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

That's my big thing. Scale it back like 20% in the worst parts and it becomes a great movie that you could even maybe watch with your kids to start some discussions. Have her taking a selfie in an outfit that's trying too hard to be grown up and sexy instead of a picture of her vulva. Have her watching MTV for too-grown-up dance moves instead of porn. Have them try to flirt their way out of a situation instead of jumping to seduction....and the bonus would be that THESE (sexy music videos, the desire to look grown up, etc) are things that most kids in my daughter's cohort could relate to, as could their parents. As opposed to this which is so far beyond the norm. 

OR, use 16-18 year old actresses who look young, who are in a very different place developmentally, and for whom this would seem significantly less exploitative. 

 

The picture of her vulva isn't shown, and it's important to have that and not just a sexy outfit because it shows that THAT suddenly is the line you can't cross and she doesn't know that because she is still too young to understand,  It also shows her desperation to be accepted by the in group of girls in that she would do anything to keep in their group.  And this is happening to girls in middle school.  A friend in my neighborhood was wrecked because her daughter was chasing affirmation on instagram, mean girls were literally cropping her out of pictures and untagging her to punish her, and then the one boy who was giving her validation started asking her for nudes.  She was in 8th grade. 

I'm pretty sure  it wasn't porn she was watching, it was actually a music video.  That's how bad things have gotten.  

I do think they could have been scaled back, volume wise.  But I am not the director.  I do think the frequency of scenes was important because it clearly showed the progression they were following and WHY they were following it.  

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54 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

A relative posted on FB that she was cancelling Netflix over this movie, so as this relative and I disagree on virtually everything I immediately went to watch it, having read literally nothing else about it.  Then I went back and read all the controversy and felt like I must have watched a completely different movie than they were talking about.  And I have to say it is incredibly frustrating that people keep giving opinions on it when they haven't seen it.  How on earth can you really form a valid opinion based on clips that don't even provide the full context?

 

 

If I were forming an opinion on the story, you'd have a valid point. Context would matter. Watching the whole show would be necessary :). 

My criticisms have nothing to do with any of that though. My thoughts start and end with the fact that young girls were sexualized and exploited in the making of this film. There's no way around it.

You (general you) can say the parents were involved. You can say the director was motivated by activism against such sexualization. You can say the girls were happy as clams to be on set doing what they were doing.

I. Don't. Care.

Sexualizing girls this way is wrong wrong wrong no matter the motive, no matter the "compliance."

I think it would be interesting to talk about how the director could've made the movie and influenced culture in the way she claims she intended without using young girls as sexualized props. I mean . . . could she have? Would this have been better as a book? Could she, as another posted suggested, maybe toned it down some? How? Would it have had the same impact?

I don't know.

But I'm not having that conversation with anyone who says the value of this movie requires the sexual exploitation of young girls. We're just on different planets.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, cintinative said:

The film gratuitously, excessively indulges in the very images and ideas it’s supposedly criticizing.

This I think is where I would come down if I were to watch the movie.

Was everything they portrayed necessary to get the message across? I very much doubt it.

 

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13 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

My thoughts start and end with the fact that young girls were sexualized and exploited in the making of this film. There's no way around it.

You (general you) can say the parents were involved. You can say the director was motivated by activism against such sexualization. You can say the girls were happy as clams to be on set doing what they were doing.

I. Don't. Care.

Sexualizing girls this way is wrong wrong wrong no matter the motive, no matter the "compliance."

That's where I fall too. 

And it doesn't matter if the girls acting in the movie were okay with it. They are not old enough to make that call. They are minors. 

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6 minutes ago, maize said:

This I think is where I would come down if I were to watch the movie.

Was everything they portrayed necessary to get the message across? I very much doubt it.

 

But that gets at the heart of my frustration with the whole cancel Netflix debate. Most people are making these assumptions without having watched it. So how do you have a debate with a set of incomplete facts? It just comes across as opinions and moral indignation. 

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6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I would guess it’s under a few percent, which is still a lot in absolute terms, but not obviously a big part of the audience. And frankly they can find “better” stuff...

Well since neither of us specialize in this sort of criminal justice, I suspect we are both mostly guessing.  

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Just now, Dobby's Sock said:

And yet, recent statistics show that 90% of kids 8-18 have watched p*rn at least once.  Saying that should just watch MTV in the movie would be absolutely ridiculous.  

I think what is happening in this conversation is the bias of slightly sheltered homeschoolers who just can't imagine what actually goes on in "the real world", especially from the viewpoint of a recent Muslim immigrant to a society vastly more open than what she is used to.

The biggest problem I have with that statistic is the decade chosen.  At 18.....yeah I had seen some porn.  I had also had a child.  

At age 8....not so much.  

Thats kind of like saying 90% of girls age 8 to 18 have started their periods.  I mean....duh.  

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10 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The biggest problem I have with that statistic is the decade chosen.  At 18.....yeah I had seen some porn.  I had also had a child.  

At age 8....not so much.  

Thats kind of like saying 90% of girls age 8 to 18 have started their periods.  I mean....duh.  


my public schooled daughter in eighth grade (she was 12 because she started kinder early) had seen gay porn on the internet.  Now luckily we were able to have a conversation about what she had seen and for the most part she was pretty sheltered overall.  But it’s relatively easy to access and kids all have devices at school. 
 

Similarly just last week parents were telling other parents to keep their kids off tiktok because someone had committed suicide and it kept being reposted and kids were seeing it.  When we were kids we wouldn’t have been exposed to that.  There would be no way. 

Edited by SanDiegoMom
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Just now, Dobby's Sock said:

Because you weren't 8 years old in the 2010s?

?   

Not sure what that has to do with anything.  It’s not like porn didn’t exist befor 2010.  It was just in print and VHS format (vhs having essentially exploding the porn industry into what we know it as today. )

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13 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

But that gets at the heart of my frustration with the whole cancel Netflix debate. Most people are making these assumptions without having watched it. So how do you have a debate with a set of incomplete facts? It just comes across as opinions and moral indignation. 

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

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12 minutes ago, Dobby's Sock said:

And yet, recent statistics show that 90% of kids 8-18 have watched p*rn at least once.  Saying that should just watch MTV in the movie would be absolutely ridiculous.  

I think what is happening in this conversation is the bias of slightly sheltered homeschoolers who just can't imagine what actually goes on in "the real world", especially from the viewpoint of a recent Muslim immigrant to a society vastly more open than what she is used to.

Oh, I can imagine. It's WHY I homeschool. 

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2 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

Right. 

I don't have to hire a prostitute before forming an opinion on the ethics of sex work. 

I don't have to, and will not, watch this movie but I can still feel that the videos and imagines and themes are not something children should be involved with, even actors, even with parental permission. 

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I can say that my girls are 24 (almost 25), 11 going on 12 and newly turned 10.  Oh, and my son is goi g to be 8 in less than a month.  My 24 yr old had not seen porn at the age of 8.  Now, at the age of 14...yeah.

None of my mi or children have seen porn at all, even though they are all mostly age 8 or older.  

The point really being....the age at which teens see porn (or otherwise have been exposed to very sexual concepts, including the act itself) is generally pretty heavily weighted towards the late teen age group and making the age group 8 to 18, really doesn’t make the statistic quoted very useful.  

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3 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

Then I guess we disagree with your definition of porn. Porn does not take into account anything but the pleasure of the viewer. This movie (when given with its full context rather than the edited snippets circulated over fb) is using these sexualized sequences to show us how badly the girls are suffering because of what they are doing.  It basically shows all the damage that none of the porn, the strip clubs, the soft porn (such as Maxim magazine) would show you.  It does not glamorize it at all, despite what the trailer and posters would have you think.  So yeah, different definition. 

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8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I can say that my girls are 24 (almost 25), 11 going on 12 and newly turned 10.  Oh, and my son is goi g to be 8 in less than a month.  My 24 yr old had not seen porn at the age of 8.  Now, at the age of 14...yeah.

None of my mi or children have seen porn at all, even though they are all mostly age 8 or older.  

The point really being....the age at which teens see porn (or otherwise have been exposed to very sexual concepts, including the act itself) is generally pretty heavily weighted towards the late teen age group and making the age group 8 to 18, really doesn’t make the statistic quoted very useful.  

Have all your kids been homeschooled? Because it’s definitely much earlier than that in schools. And it varies widely by school as well.  

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I respect what they are going for, but it's also the case that these kids will have these clips out there forever... 


I wish the director had used older girls and made them look younger. I really do wish that.   But I still am glad it was made. 🤷🏼‍♀️

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Just now, square_25 said:

Lol... that reminds me of how DD8 learned a racist (anti-Hispanic, I believe -- the Black kids taught her, I think) skipping rope song when she was at camp last summer. You can't control what kids will take in when they are out of the house for many hours a day


My friend’s daughter went to a middle school in a largerly poor largely Hispanic neighborhood. She said they used the N- word all the time. She said it in a nonchalant way too. We were shocked. She learned SO MUCH MORE than that though, and transferred schools for her eighth grade year . But she knows way too much for her age now and has no context to put it in yet. 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Honestly, I don't even know. That would have been less realistic. I don't know what I think about this one, honestly, except that I see lots of people's sides in this. 

(Well, I don't see the side of this that argues that this was made explicitly for pedophiles. That one doesn't seem plausible. But I both get being grateful for this movie and being deeply disquieted by how it was made.) 

I was an English major and we debated a lot about the Author’s vision and could they have gotten across differently and why did they do this this way. Blah blah blah. But it makes me have a lot of respect for the director and their vision and understanding that I might not “get” why they did something but they felt it was the only way to tell that story. And I feel like it’s something that is good to be discussed and not dismissed outright with no qualifiers. 

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:
grooming
 
noun
noun: grooming
  1. 1.
    the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal.
    "regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog"
    • the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin.
      "mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats"
    • the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance.
      "she pays great attention to grooming and clothes"
  2. 2.
    the action by a pedophile of preparing a child for a meeting, especially via an Internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offense.
    "online grooming has become a growing cause for concern"
     

Yeah, not seeing it, sorry. It's not "grooming." Grooming would be something passed off as innocuous that gets a kid used to a particular kind of misbehavior by adults and normalizes it. It sounds like they made it clear for these kids that this was NOT normal and that they were allowed to be uncomfortable. 

I still kind of don't like it, by the way. But calling it grooming seems off. 

I think it fits the definition actually fits pretty well

producer - pedophile, Netflix-internet site much more widely viewed than any chat room, intention- committing a sexual offense that millions (including some on this thread who seem to want to write this off as a conspiracy theory - shocking to me among a group of moms) apparently want to justify as not a sexual offense just because it sells and other people pay money to let their babies pretend to be strippers in training.  That others do something similar doesn’t make either one acceptable.  I don’t believe the show is an expose at all, because someone truly interested in changing things doesn’t commit the same crime that is being exposed.

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1 hour ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I feel like everyone who is like, "we sang songs with bad words and snuck glances at dirty magazines" is really, really missing, either intentionally or not, all the NOT normal stuff in this movie and how far beyond that kind of normally exploratory stuff the film goes. 

I don't think I missed anything in the movie. Just responding to and agreeing with this:

14 hours ago, Terabith said:

I don't think the movie depicts the girls doing things that are really unrealistic for kids those age doing.  I've certainly seen girls of those ages who watch inappropriate material online and use it to make up dances with their friends that they shouldn't.  And I've DEFINITELY seen tween/ young teen girls trying to flirt with older boys, both in real life and online and try to do shock value by saying things like tits.  It doesn't make it okay, but I think the movie is exploring things that are not unusual for the age group.  

When we say this stuff is not *unusual* now, we are not saying that it's therefore okay. Not at all. But I wasn't shocked by the girls copying moves and expressions seen in a music video. (Everyone keeps saying porn. Pretty sure it was a graphic, sexual music video.) I was dismayed at the scene of Amy taking a nude picture and posting it. But that really does happen all the time, unfortunately.

Again, not saying it's okay. It's not, at all. As I said before, the actresses should not have been asked to do this stuff. But everyone saying "not my 11-year-old" possibly doesn't know how prevalent these things are outside of conservative and homeschooling circles. And my Christian conservative mom frankly didn't know I was looking at nude photos of grown men at around that age and reading stories about threesomes.

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5 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

The age children are exposed to porn also doesn't make it ok to sexually exploiting them in a movie in order to tell us the sexually exploiting children is ok, and I'm really not understanding this perspective. I was exposed to porn at a younger than normal (for my generation) age via the internet, and that doesn't change my opinion on any of this or make the actions in order to make the movie ok.

Maybe because the movie’s point isn’t a heavy handed sexually exploiting children is wrong. It’s saying something that goes further, that our highly sexualized society is damaging our children and teaching them that the only way to be liked is to portray yourself sexually.

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16 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:


I wish the director had used older girls and made them look younger. I really do wish that.   But I still am glad it was made. 🤷🏼‍♀️

But it's not about if you are glad. It's about if those girls will be glad, years from now. And it's about if it is worth their exploitation in order to get the point across.  I mean, it seems you are saying, "yeah, they exploited underage girls, but it was for a good purpose". 

10 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I was an English major and we debated a lot about the Author’s vision and could they have gotten across differently and why did they do this this way. Blah blah blah. But it makes me have a lot of respect for the director and their vision and understanding that I might not “get” why they did something but they felt it was the only way to tell that story. And I feel like it’s something that is good to be discussed and not dismissed outright with no qualifiers. 

Sure, but no one is hurt in real life with a book. 

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1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

But it's not about if you are glad. It's about if those girls will be glad, years from now. And it's about if it is worth their exploitation in order to get the point across.  I mean, it seems you are saying, "yeah, they exploited underage girls, but it was for a good purpose". 

Sure, but no one is hurt in real life with a book. 

Fair point. 

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24 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Then I guess we disagree with your definition of porn. Porn does not take into account anything but the pleasure of the viewer. This movie (when given with its full context rather than the edited snippets circulated over fb) is using these sexualized sequences to show us how badly the girls are suffering because of what they are doing.  It basically shows all the damage that none of the porn, the strip clubs, the soft porn (such as Maxim magazine) would show you.  It does not glamorize it at all, despite what the trailer and posters would have you think.  So yeah, different definition. 

I didn't say the movie was porn.

I was giving examples of things that I and others can make informed decisions on without directly watching or participating in them.

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3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

Seriously. “Here honey. Rub your vagina like this  You're okay, right? You’re doing great. Now put your finger in your mouth and pretend to suck on it while you stare into the camera. You’re comfortable, right? This is going to be a great movie because of you.”

People would be outraged to find out some random man persuaded these girls to do these things for his own pleasure. But in service of a movie it’s okay? To be defended and applauded? Please. 
 

I don't understand how this can be legal, unless the actress is 18. Was the movie filmed in the US?

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23 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Have all your kids been homeschooled? Because it’s definitely much earlier than that in schools. And it varies widely by school as well.  

No.   DD24 was public schooled through her entire school career.  And DD11 was in public schools until second grade.

In addition, my girls associate with other girls in their age set who are not and have never been homeschooled. I have a vary good idea of what is happening in schools.  ANd I won't lie, what is happening in school IS a very large reason we do homeschool.  But I can promise you, even the most "worldly" of 12 yr olds that we associate with.......has not been exposed to porn yet.  She has been exposed to a lot of things I wouldn't consider exposing my tween to.....but yeah...not porn.  (and I am specifically speaking about girls as I have the most experience with girls in that age bracket.  I do have 3 nephews...one of whom turns 20 next month and the other 2 are newly 14.....I am fairly confident that at this age, their exposure has been minimal....my oldest nephew is a different ball of wax because of things with his bio mom.)

By say 16.....I would think that generally about 50% to 75% of girls have been exposed to porn.....and many have in fact engaged in sexual acts.  I think 16 is still the average, or close to it, for girls to engage in sexual acts.  

But the thing about that 8 to 18 age group is that it's SO VAST in terms of developement.  It's not really useful to say anything about an age group that vast.....I mean, some girls at the top of that age group are MARRIED.  It's not useful, statistically speaking.  

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15 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Fair point. 

Just want to say how refreshing this simple phrase Is in a thread like this. I need to use it more often myself. Thank you. 
(Also, San Diego is the best pace I’ve ever visited. Back to the thread....)

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Quote

I think 16 is still the average, or close to it, for girls to engage in sexual acts.  

 

50% of American teens have sex for the first time at the age of 18 or later.

Actually, just to derail for a second, American teens and young adults are overall having sex later, having less sex, and having fewer sexual partners than their parents and grandparents did.

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