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Cuties and cancel Netflix?


Terabith
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4 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I feel like everyone who is like, "we sang songs with bad words and snuck glances at dirty magazines" is really, really missing, either intentionally or not, all the NOT normal stuff in this movie and how far beyond that kind of normally exploratory stuff the film goes. The things some of the girls are doing would get kids flagged as having been potentially abused themselves by mandatory reporters. Which is the point of the director, I think? How toxic internet sexuality is and how much guidance kids could use around it? But that director then made the decision to exploit tweens to make that point. 

I think there is some naivete about exactly how much these scenes are specifically meant to arouse pedos while providing a cover of plausible deniability. Like, this is a very specific kink that I wish I had no knowledge of that someone(s) are overjoyed that people are debating the legitimate use of.

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9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Thank you for the review. 

Do you think the girls would have had to do things that scan as exploitative to us in the making of the movie? 

That's my big thing. Scale it back like 20% in the worst parts and it becomes a great movie that you could even maybe watch with your kids to start some discussions. Have her taking a selfie in an outfit that's trying too hard to be grown up and sexy instead of a picture of her vulva. Have her watching MTV for too-grown-up dance moves instead of porn. Have them try to flirt their way out of a situation instead of jumping to seduction....and the bonus would be that THESE (sexy music videos, the desire to look grown up, etc) are things that most kids in my daughter's cohort could relate to, as could their parents. As opposed to this which is so far beyond the norm. 

OR, use 16-18 year old actresses who look young, who are in a very different place developmentally, and for whom this would seem significantly less exploitative. 

 

Edited by Sk8ermaiden
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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Saying that this movie has a moral so it's okay, nay valuable! to watch, is like saying that certain other movies can really teach us how women shouldn't let the pizza guy in the house when her husband is away.

Oh, no. I disagree. 

I think there is a place for hard and ugly things to be worked out in movies, just like in books. 

I'm thinking of a really rough movie, Girlfight. Actress America Ferrera does a fabulous job as a kid who finds a way out of a horrible life situation through boxing. She gave an interview once where she talked about not accepting roles where her only power came from sexuality.  I have so much respect for that. 

Talking about horrible things in movies is not ALL porn. It just isn't. 

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Just now, square_25 said:

Thank you for the review. 

Do you think the girls would have had to do things that scan as exploitative to us in the making of the movie? I do feel icky about that aspect of it, as well as the audience this movie will attract. 

I felt very icky thinking about the four girls doing the dancing for the movie. But I think I read that all the girls parents were activists who also cared deeply about this message, and my hope is that the fallout from them making this movie would be mitigated by even a few parents that might watch it and say oh wow. I had no idea that the seemingly innocent choices I have made actually are less innocent than they seem.  Or maybe I should not let my kid have instagram. Or dance with that studio. Or maybe I just need to have conversations more with my kid to make sure they are correctly navigating the unfamiliar waters of puberty.  

Most of the parents on this board are very involved in their kids lives.  A lot of the public school kids I see have no parent they trust enough to help them through. They are fragile, desperate for validation, and willing to do anything to have social currency.  If the message gets through this movie (which honestly I don't think a documentary WOULD have the same effect) then it is worth it imo. 

 

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15 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

Why should we watch a movie that sexually exploits young girls in order to be told that it's not ok to sexually exploit young girls? 

 

Exactly. 

9 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I do not think pedophiles are a large enough part of the market for arty films to target them explicitly... 

Technically not pedophilia, but the number of adult men who are aroused and attracted to pubescent girls is significant - one of the largest markets for porn, trafficking, etc is underage girls. So yeah, actually, it's a huge market. 

But I don't think that was the target. I think the idea was to be edgy and "important' and yet they missed the forest for the trees. Because at the end of the day, they exploited girls' bodies. The thing they supposedly are against. Exploiting underage girls and sexualizing them for a "good cause" is still not okay. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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12 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

That's my big thing. Scale it back like 20% in the worst parts and it becomes a great movie that you could even maybe watch with your kids to start some discussions. Have her taking a selfie in an outfit that's trying too hard to be grown up and sexy instead of a picture of her vulva. Have her watching MTV for too-grown-up dance moves instead of porn. Have them try to flirt their way out of a situation instead of jumping to seduction....and the bonus would be that THESE (sexy music videos, the desire to look grown up, etc) are things that most kids in my daughter's cohort could relate to, as could their parents. As opposed to this which is so far beyond the norm. 

OR, use 16-18 year old actresses who look young, who are in a very different place developmentally, and for whom this would seem significantly less exploitative. 

 

The picture of her vulva isn't shown, and it's important to have that and not just a sexy outfit because it shows that THAT suddenly is the line you can't cross and she doesn't know that because she is still too young to understand,  It also shows her desperation to be accepted by the in group of girls in that she would do anything to keep in their group.  And this is happening to girls in middle school.  A friend in my neighborhood was wrecked because her daughter was chasing affirmation on instagram, mean girls were literally cropping her out of pictures and untagging her to punish her, and then the one boy who was giving her validation started asking her for nudes.  She was in 8th grade. 

I'm pretty sure  it wasn't porn she was watching, it was actually a music video.  That's how bad things have gotten.  

I do think they could have been scaled back, volume wise.  But I am not the director.  I do think the frequency of scenes was important because it clearly showed the progression they were following and WHY they were following it.  

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54 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

A relative posted on FB that she was cancelling Netflix over this movie, so as this relative and I disagree on virtually everything I immediately went to watch it, having read literally nothing else about it.  Then I went back and read all the controversy and felt like I must have watched a completely different movie than they were talking about.  And I have to say it is incredibly frustrating that people keep giving opinions on it when they haven't seen it.  How on earth can you really form a valid opinion based on clips that don't even provide the full context?

 

 

If I were forming an opinion on the story, you'd have a valid point. Context would matter. Watching the whole show would be necessary :). 

My criticisms have nothing to do with any of that though. My thoughts start and end with the fact that young girls were sexualized and exploited in the making of this film. There's no way around it.

You (general you) can say the parents were involved. You can say the director was motivated by activism against such sexualization. You can say the girls were happy as clams to be on set doing what they were doing.

I. Don't. Care.

Sexualizing girls this way is wrong wrong wrong no matter the motive, no matter the "compliance."

I think it would be interesting to talk about how the director could've made the movie and influenced culture in the way she claims she intended without using young girls as sexualized props. I mean . . . could she have? Would this have been better as a book? Could she, as another posted suggested, maybe toned it down some? How? Would it have had the same impact?

I don't know.

But I'm not having that conversation with anyone who says the value of this movie requires the sexual exploitation of young girls. We're just on different planets.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, cintinative said:

The film gratuitously, excessively indulges in the very images and ideas it’s supposedly criticizing.

This I think is where I would come down if I were to watch the movie.

Was everything they portrayed necessary to get the message across? I very much doubt it.

 

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13 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

My thoughts start and end with the fact that young girls were sexualized and exploited in the making of this film. There's no way around it.

You (general you) can say the parents were involved. You can say the director was motivated by activism against such sexualization. You can say the girls were happy as clams to be on set doing what they were doing.

I. Don't. Care.

Sexualizing girls this way is wrong wrong wrong no matter the motive, no matter the "compliance."

That's where I fall too. 

And it doesn't matter if the girls acting in the movie were okay with it. They are not old enough to make that call. They are minors. 

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6 minutes ago, maize said:

This I think is where I would come down if I were to watch the movie.

Was everything they portrayed necessary to get the message across? I very much doubt it.

 

But that gets at the heart of my frustration with the whole cancel Netflix debate. Most people are making these assumptions without having watched it. So how do you have a debate with a set of incomplete facts? It just comes across as opinions and moral indignation. 

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10 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

The biggest problem I have with that statistic is the decade chosen.  At 18.....yeah I had seen some porn.  I had also had a child.  

At age 8....not so much.  

Thats kind of like saying 90% of girls age 8 to 18 have started their periods.  I mean....duh.  


my public schooled daughter in eighth grade (she was 12 because she started kinder early) had seen gay porn on the internet.  Now luckily we were able to have a conversation about what she had seen and for the most part she was pretty sheltered overall.  But it’s relatively easy to access and kids all have devices at school. 
 

Similarly just last week parents were telling other parents to keep their kids off tiktok because someone had committed suicide and it kept being reposted and kids were seeing it.  When we were kids we wouldn’t have been exposed to that.  There would be no way. 

Edited by SanDiegoMom
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13 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

But that gets at the heart of my frustration with the whole cancel Netflix debate. Most people are making these assumptions without having watched it. So how do you have a debate with a set of incomplete facts? It just comes across as opinions and moral indignation. 

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

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12 minutes ago, Dobby's Sock said:

And yet, recent statistics show that 90% of kids 8-18 have watched p*rn at least once.  Saying that should just watch MTV in the movie would be absolutely ridiculous.  

I think what is happening in this conversation is the bias of slightly sheltered homeschoolers who just can't imagine what actually goes on in "the real world", especially from the viewpoint of a recent Muslim immigrant to a society vastly more open than what she is used to.

Oh, I can imagine. It's WHY I homeschool. 

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2 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

Right. 

I don't have to hire a prostitute before forming an opinion on the ethics of sex work. 

I don't have to, and will not, watch this movie but I can still feel that the videos and imagines and themes are not something children should be involved with, even actors, even with parental permission. 

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3 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't have to watch porn to oppose it.

I don't have to play first person shooter games to oppose them.

I don't have to watch the video of George Floyd dying to oppose police brutality and systemic racism.

Direct observation is not the only valid way to research something.

Then I guess we disagree with your definition of porn. Porn does not take into account anything but the pleasure of the viewer. This movie (when given with its full context rather than the edited snippets circulated over fb) is using these sexualized sequences to show us how badly the girls are suffering because of what they are doing.  It basically shows all the damage that none of the porn, the strip clubs, the soft porn (such as Maxim magazine) would show you.  It does not glamorize it at all, despite what the trailer and posters would have you think.  So yeah, different definition. 

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8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I can say that my girls are 24 (almost 25), 11 going on 12 and newly turned 10.  Oh, and my son is goi g to be 8 in less than a month.  My 24 yr old had not seen porn at the age of 8.  Now, at the age of 14...yeah.

None of my mi or children have seen porn at all, even though they are all mostly age 8 or older.  

The point really being....the age at which teens see porn (or otherwise have been exposed to very sexual concepts, including the act itself) is generally pretty heavily weighted towards the late teen age group and making the age group 8 to 18, really doesn’t make the statistic quoted very useful.  

Have all your kids been homeschooled? Because it’s definitely much earlier than that in schools. And it varies widely by school as well.  

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I respect what they are going for, but it's also the case that these kids will have these clips out there forever... 


I wish the director had used older girls and made them look younger. I really do wish that.   But I still am glad it was made. 🤷🏼‍♀️

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Just now, square_25 said:

Lol... that reminds me of how DD8 learned a racist (anti-Hispanic, I believe -- the Black kids taught her, I think) skipping rope song when she was at camp last summer. You can't control what kids will take in when they are out of the house for many hours a day


My friend’s daughter went to a middle school in a largerly poor largely Hispanic neighborhood. She said they used the N- word all the time. She said it in a nonchalant way too. We were shocked. She learned SO MUCH MORE than that though, and transferred schools for her eighth grade year . But she knows way too much for her age now and has no context to put it in yet. 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Honestly, I don't even know. That would have been less realistic. I don't know what I think about this one, honestly, except that I see lots of people's sides in this. 

(Well, I don't see the side of this that argues that this was made explicitly for pedophiles. That one doesn't seem plausible. But I both get being grateful for this movie and being deeply disquieted by how it was made.) 

I was an English major and we debated a lot about the Author’s vision and could they have gotten across differently and why did they do this this way. Blah blah blah. But it makes me have a lot of respect for the director and their vision and understanding that I might not “get” why they did something but they felt it was the only way to tell that story. And I feel like it’s something that is good to be discussed and not dismissed outright with no qualifiers. 

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:
grooming
 
noun
noun: grooming
  1. 1.
    the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal.
    "regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog"
    • the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin.
      "mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats"
    • the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance.
      "she pays great attention to grooming and clothes"
  2. 2.
    the action by a pedophile of preparing a child for a meeting, especially via an Internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offense.
    "online grooming has become a growing cause for concern"
     

Yeah, not seeing it, sorry. It's not "grooming." Grooming would be something passed off as innocuous that gets a kid used to a particular kind of misbehavior by adults and normalizes it. It sounds like they made it clear for these kids that this was NOT normal and that they were allowed to be uncomfortable. 

I still kind of don't like it, by the way. But calling it grooming seems off. 

I think it fits the definition actually fits pretty well

producer - pedophile, Netflix-internet site much more widely viewed than any chat room, intention- committing a sexual offense that millions (including some on this thread who seem to want to write this off as a conspiracy theory - shocking to me among a group of moms) apparently want to justify as not a sexual offense just because it sells and other people pay money to let their babies pretend to be strippers in training.  That others do something similar doesn’t make either one acceptable.  I don’t believe the show is an expose at all, because someone truly interested in changing things doesn’t commit the same crime that is being exposed.

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1 hour ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I feel like everyone who is like, "we sang songs with bad words and snuck glances at dirty magazines" is really, really missing, either intentionally or not, all the NOT normal stuff in this movie and how far beyond that kind of normally exploratory stuff the film goes. 

I don't think I missed anything in the movie. Just responding to and agreeing with this:

14 hours ago, Terabith said:

I don't think the movie depicts the girls doing things that are really unrealistic for kids those age doing.  I've certainly seen girls of those ages who watch inappropriate material online and use it to make up dances with their friends that they shouldn't.  And I've DEFINITELY seen tween/ young teen girls trying to flirt with older boys, both in real life and online and try to do shock value by saying things like tits.  It doesn't make it okay, but I think the movie is exploring things that are not unusual for the age group.  

When we say this stuff is not *unusual* now, we are not saying that it's therefore okay. Not at all. But I wasn't shocked by the girls copying moves and expressions seen in a music video. (Everyone keeps saying porn. Pretty sure it was a graphic, sexual music video.) I was dismayed at the scene of Amy taking a nude picture and posting it. But that really does happen all the time, unfortunately.

Again, not saying it's okay. It's not, at all. As I said before, the actresses should not have been asked to do this stuff. But everyone saying "not my 11-year-old" possibly doesn't know how prevalent these things are outside of conservative and homeschooling circles. And my Christian conservative mom frankly didn't know I was looking at nude photos of grown men at around that age and reading stories about threesomes.

Edited by MercyA
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5 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

The age children are exposed to porn also doesn't make it ok to sexually exploiting them in a movie in order to tell us the sexually exploiting children is ok, and I'm really not understanding this perspective. I was exposed to porn at a younger than normal (for my generation) age via the internet, and that doesn't change my opinion on any of this or make the actions in order to make the movie ok.

Maybe because the movie’s point isn’t a heavy handed sexually exploiting children is wrong. It’s saying something that goes further, that our highly sexualized society is damaging our children and teaching them that the only way to be liked is to portray yourself sexually.

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16 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:


I wish the director had used older girls and made them look younger. I really do wish that.   But I still am glad it was made. 🤷🏼‍♀️

But it's not about if you are glad. It's about if those girls will be glad, years from now. And it's about if it is worth their exploitation in order to get the point across.  I mean, it seems you are saying, "yeah, they exploited underage girls, but it was for a good purpose". 

10 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I was an English major and we debated a lot about the Author’s vision and could they have gotten across differently and why did they do this this way. Blah blah blah. But it makes me have a lot of respect for the director and their vision and understanding that I might not “get” why they did something but they felt it was the only way to tell that story. And I feel like it’s something that is good to be discussed and not dismissed outright with no qualifiers. 

Sure, but no one is hurt in real life with a book. 

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1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

But it's not about if you are glad. It's about if those girls will be glad, years from now. And it's about if it is worth their exploitation in order to get the point across.  I mean, it seems you are saying, "yeah, they exploited underage girls, but it was for a good purpose". 

Sure, but no one is hurt in real life with a book. 

Fair point. 

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24 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Then I guess we disagree with your definition of porn. Porn does not take into account anything but the pleasure of the viewer. This movie (when given with its full context rather than the edited snippets circulated over fb) is using these sexualized sequences to show us how badly the girls are suffering because of what they are doing.  It basically shows all the damage that none of the porn, the strip clubs, the soft porn (such as Maxim magazine) would show you.  It does not glamorize it at all, despite what the trailer and posters would have you think.  So yeah, different definition. 

I didn't say the movie was porn.

I was giving examples of things that I and others can make informed decisions on without directly watching or participating in them.

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3 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

Seriously. “Here honey. Rub your vagina like this  You're okay, right? You’re doing great. Now put your finger in your mouth and pretend to suck on it while you stare into the camera. You’re comfortable, right? This is going to be a great movie because of you.”

People would be outraged to find out some random man persuaded these girls to do these things for his own pleasure. But in service of a movie it’s okay? To be defended and applauded? Please. 
 

I don't understand how this can be legal, unless the actress is 18. Was the movie filmed in the US?

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I think 16 is still the average, or close to it, for girls to engage in sexual acts.  

 

50% of American teens have sex for the first time at the age of 18 or later.

Actually, just to derail for a second, American teens and young adults are overall having sex later, having less sex, and having fewer sexual partners than their parents and grandparents did.

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46 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Maybe because the movie’s point isn’t a heavy handed sexually exploiting children is wrong. It’s saying something that goes further, that our highly sexualized society is damaging our children and teaching them that the only way to be liked is to portray yourself sexually.

I didn’t think that was the point of the movie at all.  I thought it was more along the lines of trying to figure out who you are and where you belong when you’re between cultures and essentially without adult guidance.  

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19 hours ago, Terabith said:

I only saw one clip, and none of those things were in it.  But yeah, if those things are in it, then I'd say that is inappropriate for sure.  

I saw one short clip and several of those things were in it. I really don't need to see any more of it. Fortunately, I've never had Netflix and don't need to cancel it.

My dd was a competitive dancer and, yes, they wear stage makeup otherwise they don't have facial features on stage. However, one of the reasons I like our studio is because the dances, lyrics, and costumes are always age appropriate. I would feel perfectly comfortable at our studio speaking up against inappropriate dance moves. I have seen dances at competitions that got the parents talking and caused dads to walk out of the auditorium, but those dances often lose points from the judges for being inappropriate. 

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7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I didn’t think that was the point of the movie at all.  I thought it was more along the lines of trying to figure out who you are and where you belong when you’re between cultures and essentially without adult guidance.  

Hmm, yes I agree that she’s trying to figure out herself between those two choices but both are presented as equally bad and it seemed pretty clear to me that these school girls were damaged by the choices they were making.  So maybe the sub point?  But maybe I am too close to the topic and am reading my own experiences into it. 

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18 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Hmm, yes I agree that she’s trying to figure out herself between those two choices but both are presented as equally bad and it seemed pretty clear to me that these school girls were damaged by the choices they were making.  So maybe the sub point?  But maybe I am too close to the topic and am reading my own experiences into it. 

Well, sorta.  Honestly, the girls who were dancing had some pretty decent boundaries before Amy got involved.  She, with the ideas she got from watching inappropriate content, whether porn or risque music videos, is the one who ratchets up their dancing and behavior.  And even before she got involved with the girls at school, she was stealing.  

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3 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

 OR, use 16-18 year old actresses who look young, who are in a very different place developmentally, and for whom this would seem significantly less exploitative. 

18 playing 14 is fairly easy. 16 playing 11 is nearly impossible. 

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

I think that there are valid questions about whether kids this age can consent to these scenes, however the parents feel. These scenes will now be out there forever 😕 . Of course, I’m squeamish about child actors in general...

Yes, I hope everyone who is up in arms about this film continues to be angry and concerned about what child actors are routinely exposed to and go through. And that's not me expressing an opinion on the film; I don't have one yet, but child actors act in potentially traumatic and embarrassing scenes all the time. Let's spread out the concern. 

 

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

?   

Not sure what that has to do with anything.  It’s not like porn didn’t exist befor 2010.  It was just in print and VHS format (vhs having essentially exploding the porn industry into what we know it as today. )

Forum being wonky so responding in the quote: VHS and even the cable porn channels of the 1980s were absolutely nothing compared to the internet and a device in every hand. 

 

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

None of my mi or children have seen porn at all, even though they are all mostly age 8 or older.  

I am not sure any parent can say this with complete confidence. 

1 hour ago, PeppermintPattie said:

I don't understand how this can be legal, unless the actress is 18. Was the movie filmed in the US?

No, it's a foreign film. 

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

But I can promise you, even the most "worldly" of 12 yr olds that we associate with.......has not been exposed to porn yet.   

Nope, you can't promise this. You don't know the details of all of their lives enough to know that they never found a magazine at their uncle's house, or a friend/cousin/acquaintance never handed them a phone with something already playing. They may or may not have been exposed to porn, but you really have no way of knowing.

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5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 n if they don't knwo what they are doing at the time of the film, they will someday. And look back and realize that they were being sexually exploited. That can't feel good or be healthy. 

This,

I was molested  by a teenager who lived two houses away when I was three.  It was YEARS before I understood just how badly it affected me - and it only happened ONCE.  The olympic gymnasts were told - this will help you,/etc.   It happened in front of their parents, and with the blessing of their coaches.  then they grew up and realized they had been abused. repeatedly.

That people are talking about "the adults explained to them what happened and wanted to make sure they were comfortable."   - hello!??? is anyone really listening to that?  These are little girls - they don't understand long term ramifications of things.   The job of the adults in their lives is to protect them .

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14 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

Yes, I hope everyone who is up in arms about this film continues to be angry and concerned about what child actors are routinely exposed to and go through. And that's not me expressing an opinion on the film; I don't have one yet, but child actors act in potentially traumatic and embarrassing scenes all the time. Let's spread out the concern. 

 

It is disgusting.  My friend's dd was offered a contract if they'd move to LA.  She was very tiny, and could pass as younger than she really was.  My friend refused, she didn't want her in a series.  and who knew what would have come after that?

 

Two of my kids friends from growing up went "to hollywood" when they were 18.  It is *extremely* sexualized.  One got out, one didn't.  And it shows.

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I guess I wonder if it matters whether it's done for the sexual gratification of the person doing it or not. I really don't know what the kids' reflections of their roles in this movie will be as get older... I can imagine a lot of regret, but I can also imagine it'll be different from being molested. 

For me, being groped by a "family friend" definitely had lasting repercussions, but they were largely about shame and feeling uncomfortable in my own body. I don't know if I'd expect being in a movie like that to provoke that kind of shame. 

It is being done to the child - s3xual gratification of the adult is irrelevant.   there are pedos who will watch it and be gratified.

the movie is teaching these girls this is NORMAL, and that this "feels good".  it is teaching them how to use their bodies to get attention.  It will affect them, and not in a good way.

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18 minutes ago, katilac said:

18 playing 14 is fairly easy. 16 playing 11 is nearly impossible. 

Yes, I hope everyone who is up in arms about this film continues to be angry and concerned about what child actors are routinely exposed to and go through. And that's not me expressing an opinion on the film; I don't have one yet, but child actors act in potentially traumatic and embarrassing scenes all the time. Let's spread out the concern. 

I don't know what actions you would consider angry and concerned or spreading out the concern, but I'm not unaware of this issue and won't watch films that portray kids in this way. Little Miss Sunshine, for example, was gross and I didn't know...and yet it was critically acclaimed. I know she's basically her own person now and an actress in her own rite, but just...I wouldn't want any of my kids to be involved in something like that.

In fact, would never, ever allow my kids to be child actors because I think most of Hollywood is a cesspool of predators in ways that I can't fully understand from the outside. I don't know exactly the chicken/egg dynamic going on, but most child actors with any prominence talk about being abused or harassed by agents/producers/directors/hangers on that I don't honestly know how it is not dealt with and prosecuted. 

Like everyone knew about Weinstein as an "open secret" with young women, and I've heard enough about kids to gross me out.

It isn't just this film. But this film is a pretty egregious step over the line.

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

See, I would guess this movie is less bad than most movies in terms of how the kids were actually treated on set. Again, female director, arty movie, involved parents who care about the (anti-sexualization) message... it's not the standard abuse set up. 

Now, that doesn't mean I don't feel weird about it, because I do. 

Treating them "better" while they were doing this stuff creeps me out more, tbh. It seems more desensitizing, more subtly undermining any kind of discomfort the kids would feel. But most people grooming kids treat them really, really nicely to get them over any self-consciousness or feelings of unease in order to get them to do what they want, so it seems very similar to me any way you slice it. Women are not excused from being predators or enablers. And parents go along with all kinds of nonsense to get their kids ahead in Hollywood in particular, but also think of Larry Nassar and parents being involved in their kids gymnastics careers and being told their girls needed this therapy to get ahead and they went with it despite later admitting they knew something wasn't right.

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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 Certainly you are correct that I can't know 1000%.  I can say that I know the family, I know what they leave accessible, I know the kid well enough to interpret various and assorted expressions.    etc etc.  What I can say is that this kid (or others in the friend group) are NOT watching these thing under blankets at sleepovers or anyting similar.....having hosted a few....and no, I am not a parent that goes to bed while 11yr olds are awake lol

Okay, we are possibly using vocabulary differently. What I'm saying is that kids who don't actively seek out porn can still be exposed to porn. 

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I don't know what kind of "better" you mean, but I would guess there were lots of conversations how this stuff isn't done in normal life. 

In order to get them to do it in their normal life! Predators say this. We only do this here, and it's okay because we only do it here. We only do this because you need it to be a better athlete. We only do this for the art of the film.

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3 hours ago, Dobby's Sock said:

And yet, recent statistics show that 90% of kids 8-18 have watched p*rn at least once.  Saying that should just watch MTV in the movie would be absolutely ridiculous.  

I think what is happening in this conversation is the bias of slightly sheltered homeschoolers who just can't imagine what actually goes on in "the real world", especially from the viewpoint of a recent Muslim immigrant to a society vastly more open than what she is used to.

Wow.  Well, this "slightly sheltered" homeschooler dealt with all sorts of things as an underaged girl who was led into sin and destruction by several "normal" adults.  It took years for anyone in my family to catch on to what was occurring when they weren't around.  By the time they put up a boundary and we withdrew from that community, my moral compass had already been messed with.  It took years as an adult to realize what kind of screwed up mentality came from those formative years.  

I'm also an immigrant's daughter, so it's not as if I can't "imagine" what goes on related to culture shock or making a way in a new world.  

Sin is sin.  Doesn't matter what demographic, culture, race, or religion you come from.  Homeschool...private...public: doesn't matter. 

I'm hearing a lot of people in this discussion who are sick of perversion being equated to enlightenment (not by you, but in general public discourse).  

I'm not easily offended, but you make some gross generalizations about the people on this board with this type of comment.  It doesn't take long on these boards to discover that many of the people you're having this "conversation" with aren't "slightly sheltered".  IME, they do tend to be people who are pretty strong in their opinions and take a passionate stance against harm done to children.  They're / We're also from a variety of backgrounds (including many other direct immigrants), from a variety of races and creeds.  

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My 15 year old has stumbled into porn a couple of times from pinterest.  

Honestly, I figure that most kids are going to stumble across porn at some point in their lives, either as kids/ teens or as adults, since innocuous links on the internet can link to it.  Our approach has been to talk about it (a lot) with the kids, from pretty early on.  

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4 hours ago, Dobby's Sock said:

And yet, recent statistics show that 90% of kids 8-18 have watched p*rn at least once.  Saying that should just watch MTV in the movie would be absolutely ridiculous.  

I think what is happening in this conversation is the bias of slightly sheltered homeschoolers who just can't imagine what actually goes on in "the real world", especially from the viewpoint of a recent Muslim immigrant to a society vastly more open than what she is used to.

 

I might not be a "recent Muslim immigrant" but I for one was certainly not sheltered,  not even slightly.   I was in foster care from the age of 3.  I know what happens to girls with no parents, girls who no one looks out for, who are trying to find their place in the world.  They get sexualized at a very young age, often by parents and foster parents and teachers and coaches and priests. 

 

Sure, talking about that is helpful.  I talk about a ton of sensitive things like this with my daughter, who is 11 herself.  And sometimes girls this young may even be exploring their own sexual feelings at this age of viewing how other girls and women use their bodies for attention or material gain and wonder if they should also.

 

But there is a big, big difference between children doing this on their own and parents having discussions with them about it vs adults like all of the people involved in this movie having 600 girls come dance provocatively for them to see if the could do it right, picking a few of them and teaching them even more moves and sucking on fingers while looking at the camera and slapping their own vagina over their very skimpy clothing, and then having them perform it over and over for a whole crew and camera so they can get that dance scene just right enough to look as bad as it does.  And then the director and editors went through all that film and picked shots that zoom in on litter girls vaginas and butts to look as provocative as possible.

 

The message the words of the movie are trying to say does not matter more than the one being made by the images, and certainly not more than what these little girls were made to do for a movie.

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35 minutes ago, Terabith said:

My 15 year old has stumbled into porn a couple of times from pinterest.  

Honestly, I figure that most kids are going to stumble across porn at some point in their lives, either as kids/ teens or as adults, since innocuous links on the internet can link to it.  Our approach has been to talk about it (a lot) with the kids, from pretty early on.  

Agreed that it’s a matter of when, not if kids will stumble onto porn.  
 

I like this book for introducing the topic with kids.  It led to some good conversations with my kids.  They haven’t been exposed yet, but we have a comfortable vocabulary for talking about it when they come across it.

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Pictures-Bad-Porn-Proofing-Todays/dp/0997318732/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3EKUWAVQBQF18&dchild=1&keywords=good+pictures+bad+pictures&qid=1600044699&sprefix=Good+pi%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Predators also keep what's being done very, very quiet. I just don't see the analogy here. 

Yes, this is more insidious because it's putting it out in the open and people are debating about whether or not it is or is not sexual exploitation, whether or not these girls were violated, if this is okay to do to send a message or express art, etc., etc. 

It's an attempt to remove taboos surrounding young tweens and what's okay to do to them by putting a nice artsy sheen over it and claiming it couldn't possibly be a problem because the director is a woman and their parents were there and the message is to not to and they never would have had to act this out if it wasn't such a problem in society.

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's a female-directed movie. It's possible they were exploiting this for titillation, I guess, but it just didn't sound like it 😕. That doesn't mean the viewers won't, but you're making the process sound gross and it wasn't necessarily. 

It really didn't seem that way to me.  

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This is my last comment on the subject, and I'll shut up. I'm honestly shocked at the number of posters who seem to think this whole thing is somehow acceptable because it's art... it has a message... it isn't as bad as (insert some other grievious act against children)... the parents were there... there's some group or agenda behind the criticism (other than speaking out against exploitation). I sincerely doubt many of these same posters would give an action or statement a pass because "it's just a little bit racist" or whatever "ist" or "ism" you want to apply.

The film maker may have had good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with those. Sometimes things are just wrong. That we cannot even agree on that shows, to me, just how far we've fallen in this world turned upside down.

 

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17 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It's a female-directed movie. It's possible they were exploiting this for titillation, I guess, but it just didn't sound like it 😕. That doesn't mean the viewers won't, but you're making the process sound gross and it wasn't necessarily. 

This is the third time you've implied that it can't be exploitation or it's at least not so bad because it's female directed. Some of us know that women are also sexual abusers of children.

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

No, I'm pretty sure it's more insidious to be groped by a friend of the family and not know what the heck could prompt a man in his 50s to do that to a 13 year old... It's insidious because there are no conversations and explanations. It just is, and it ruins things for you. And it's not even that bad as things go. 

I would rather that exact behavior *not* be normalized and made socially acceptable in order to keep said 50yos from being able watch their objects of fantasy slap each others bums in a tickle fight and grind on the floor in a widely released motion picture and then have people excuse such things as art or tales of soceital morality. 

It is a tragedy when children are sexually abused and used for adults to get their rocks off, no matter the exact circumstances. It is one of the most heinous things a human being can do. I don't understand the impetus to defend this act of exploitation by using an example of another. I also don't understand failing to see that those exact type of creepers were probably on set making sure the girls were okay with what was happening and reassuring their parents about how on the up and up it all was.

Yes, children in our culture have been sexualized so gradually that the heat is being slowly turned up on the proverbial frog in the pot. This film is a symptom of that and the reaction to it shows that the people releasing film started boiling the frog a bit too fast for some. But I fear that the questions about if it's truly wrong for tweens to participate in this project (not my children, of course, because I'm not okay with *my* kids doing that!) means we're already too far gone.

You don't see the sexuality of the scenes. I get it. I honestly wish I was that blissfully unaware of what the issue is here. The writer or someone involved in the making of this film knew what they were doing and it honestly makes me feel sick every time I spend much time thinking about the girls who were involved in this as able to consent to what's going on.

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