How prevalent are bicycling accidents in Europe

[Ginevra]

I’m wondering about countries like the Netherlands or Germany, where bicycling is much more prevalent as a regular mode of transportation than where I live in the US. Are fatal or serious bicycling accidents more frequent or equivalent to fatal and serious auto accidents in the US? 

I’m curious about whether the much larger percentage of bicycle users in Europe offsets transportation fatalities due to our huge dependance on cars, or if accidents of transportation are not much different, just a different vehicle involved. 

[Sherry in OH]

EU data for 2018 - https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/statistics/dacota/bfs20xx_cyclists.pdf

 

[ashfern]

Don't they have more dedicated bike lanes in Europe. I live in a rural area and we have bicyclists on our roads. I personally wouldn't want to ride a bike on a 2 lane road with no shoulders where the speed limit is 55.

[Farrar]

34 minutes ago, Dobby's Sock said:

Why would they lump motorcycles and scooters in with bicycles??

The line between these is getting blurry, what with motorized bikes. Though I agree with you...

[Laura Corin]

US traffic fatality rates are high per-mile-travelled: all vehicles, so far as I can tell. 

See right-hand column: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

 

[maize]

Here's a study on bicycle accidents in Japan (I found bicycles more prevalent there than in most of Europe):

https://www.statista.com/statistics/765461/japan-bicycle-road-traffic-accident-numbers/

Edited September 10, 2020 by maize

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ashfern said:

Don't they have more dedicated bike lanes in Europe. I live in a rural area and we have bicyclists on our roads. I personally wouldn't want to ride a bike on a 2 lane road with no shoulders where the speed limit is 55.

From my limited knowledge, yes, they do, as well as more bike parking and other ways bicycling is promoted over driving cars. 

Bicycling where I live is, IMO, very dangerous for the reason you mention above: no shoulder, high speeds. Also, often very twisty roads. I know of someone who was seriously injured on a bicycle when a deer ran into him. 

[Tanaqui]

Don't forget, cars in the EU are held to a different set of safety standards than cars in the USA, one which puts more emphasis on pedestrian (and bike) safety. So even if there are the same amount of crashes involving bikes and cars, those crashes will be less deadly for the people on the bikes.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

The line between these is getting blurry, what with motorized bikes. Though I agree with you...

I know that Austria has seen a large increase in bicycle accidents in the past year which they are concerned about; and they have found that the accidents are becoming more serious.  The increase is being attributed to the increase in e-bikes which has dominated sales of new bikes recently. 

Around here (suburban) there are an increasing number of bike lanes, but there are still roads that don’t lend themselves well to them (curvy, undulating hills, no shoulder).  Most of the areas have installed safety paths for walkers and bikers, but the hard core ones don’t want to use them.  My biggest problem with road bikers (here most people are suited out for exercise, not commuting) is they expect drivers to respect them on the roads, but rarely do they follow the rules.  I have lost count of the times that bicycles pause for a red light, then proceed through the intersection or turn left on a red when they deem that no one is coming.

[Carol in Cal.]

Around here auto drivers are very tuned in to pedestrians, but also pedestrians tend to obey traffic laws.

Bikes as a group don’t obey traffic laws.  They don’t stop at stop signs or even red lights if they think they might get away with proceeding safely.  They don’t make hand signals when they are turning.  They use crosswalks like they are pedestrians, which they are not supposed to do unless they are walking their bikes.  

I used to be very sympathetic to bike riders as a group, and undeniably it is hard to find safe place to ride around here, but they are making it hard to respect them because they drive auto drivers crazy by being so unpredictable and breaking the law.  Also, in general, it ticks me off that we have so many people lobbying for separate, publicly funded bike paths but then not making them safe for women.  In my city we just had a historic, gorgeous, usable train trestle torn down and replaced with a generic bridge, at public expense, millions of dollars spent, in an area where it’s going to be too dangerous for women to ever go after dark, and not super safe during the day.  

[Wheres Toto]

5 hours ago, ashfern said:

Don't they have more dedicated bike lanes in Europe. I live in a rural area and we have bicyclists on our roads. I personally wouldn't want to ride a bike on a 2 lane road with no shoulders where the speed limit is 55.

 

2 hours ago, Quill said:

From my limited knowledge, yes, they do, as well as more bike parking and other ways bicycling is promoted over driving cars. 

Bicycling where I live is, IMO, very dangerous for the reason you mention above: no shoulder, high speeds. Also, often very twisty roads. I know of someone who was seriously injured on a bicycle when a deer ran into him. 

We have roads marked as bike routes that are as described above - narrow, twisty, hilly, very little visibility and no shoulders.    I refuse to even walk on some of these roads because between the cars and the bikes, you'd be taking your life into your hands.  Most areas you can't even step into a yard, there's either rocks, trees or restraining walls.  

1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

Around here (suburban) there are an increasing number of bike lanes, but there are still roads that don’t lend themselves well to them (curvy, undulating hills, no shoulder).  Most of the areas have installed safety paths for walkers and bikers, but the hard core ones don’t want to use them.  My biggest problem with road bikers (here most people are suited out for exercise, not commuting) is they expect drivers to respect them on the roads, but rarely do they follow the rules.  I have lost count of the times that bicycles pause for a red light, then proceed through the intersection or turn left on a red when they deem that no one is coming.

And definitely this.   Large groups that pay no attention to which side of the road they're supposed to be on, much less staying toward the shoulder.   Riding 3 and 4 across a busy road, swerving suddenly, not signaling, not stopping.  It's awful. 

I was stopped once at a stop sign, turning left onto a busier road with very little visibility to see cars coming from the right and no stop sign for the cross traffic.  A biker came up behind me, went over into the middle of the road so they were on my left and went straight across the road without stopping.   I almost made the left turn without even seeing them which would have put me right into their path.  Plus there could have been a car coming down the main road and there's no way they would have known.  You can't see until you're right at the intersection and the line of sight is pretty small.  

[frogger]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Around here auto drivers are very tuned in to pedestrians, but also pedestrians tend to obey traffic laws.

Bikes as a group don’t obey traffic laws.  They don’t stop at stop signs or even red lights if they think they might get away with proceeding safely.  They don’t make hand signals when they are turning.  They use crosswalks like they are pedestrians, which they are not supposed to do unless they are walking their bikes.  

I used to be very sympathetic to bike riders as a group, and undeniably it is hard to find safe place to ride around here, but they are making it hard to respect them because they drive auto drivers crazy by being so unpredictable and breaking the law.  Also, in general, it ticks me off that we have so many people lobbying for separate, publicly funded bike paths but then not making them safe for women.  In my city we just had a historic, gorgeous, usable train trestle torn down and replaced with a generic bridge, at public expense, millions of dollars spent, in an area where it’s going to be too dangerous for women to ever go after dark, and not super safe during the day.  

 

Where do you live? I'm curious because I've only lived an a few places in America though I have driven in a large number of states and my experience is people in general don't appear to know hardly any driving laws or even the laws of physics.

If I were to push one thing it would be to make driving tests immensely harder. You apparently only have to have had a pulse a certain number of years to operate a deadly weapon. I always comment to my kids when I see a good driver, "Oh look that person actually stopped before the crosswalk." "Ooo,ooo, oooo look two people in a row pulled into the correct lane out of an intersection. Let's focus on them and not the other 5 who went into the incorrect lane." 

 

So I'm really wondering where you live that is so special, or is it not in the US? That would start to make sense. 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by frogger

[frogger]

3 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Around here (suburban) there are an increasing number of bike lanes, but there are still roads that don’t lend themselves well to them (curvy, undulating hills, no shoulder).  Most of the areas have installed safety paths for walkers and bikers, but the hard core ones don’t want to use them.  My biggest problem with road bikers (here most people are suited out for exercise, not commuting) is they expect drivers to respect them on the roads, but rarely do they follow the rules.  I have lost count of the times that bicycles pause for a red light, then proceed through the intersection or turn left on a red when they deem that no one is coming.

 

This is actually legal in many areas.  Lights that are timed work well but any intersection that is set up to change when it detects a vehicle will not dectect a bike. Most won't even detect a motorbike. I remember a motorcyclist waving me up close when I pulled up behind him. He rolled into the crosswalk so I could take his place as the first vehicle and the light finally changed. I have no idea how long he waited before I got there but it did take some time for me to understand what he was waving to me about etc. It simply wouldn't have changed if I would have just stayed back. 

 

ETA: Most people who ride to work, do not do so in their business suit unless they live very close so it isn't good to judge by that.

Edited September 10, 2020 by frogger

[Laura Corin]

25 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Where do you live? I'm curious because I've only lived an a few places in America though I have driven in a large number of states and my experience is people in general don't appear to know hardly any driving laws or even the laws of physics.

If I were to push one thing it would be to make driving tests immensely harder. 

I did find my California driving test bizarrely easy. It was a full test, not a catch-up because I  already had an overseas licence. On the other hand, my husband, with 20 years of driving experience,  failed his UK test on not paying sufficient attention to other road users.

This is an interesting article about how the  built environment contributes to traffic accidents 

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/11/30/13784520/roads-deaths-increase-safety-traffic-us

[Tanaqui]

22 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

This is actually legal in many areas.  Lights that are timed work well but any intersection that is set up to change when it detects a vehicle will not dectect a bike. Most won't even detect a motorbike. I remember a motorcyclist waving me up close when I pulled up behind him. He rolled into the crosswalk so I could take his place as the first vehicle and the light finally changed. I have no idea how long he waited before I got there but it did take some time for me to understand what he was waving to me about etc. It simply wouldn't have changed if I would have just stayed back. 

 

ETA: Most people who ride to work, do not do so in their business suit unless they live very close so it isn't good to judge by that.

 

Most drivers have only the vaguest ideas which traffic laws apply to non-drivers. See, for example, routine handwringing about "jaywalking" - many of the cases described, when you actually examine the situation and the traffic code, are in fact legal.

[frogger]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

The line between these is getting blurry, what with motorized bikes. Though I agree with you...

 

I do think this will become an issue until society sorts it out. I think what is especially dangerous is people who wouldn't ride a motorcycle on the roads because their lack of skill would make it dangerous for them with other cars will choose to ride an ebike on trails with pedistrians because they feel safer. 

 

Getting people to consider other people's seems very difficult. Case in point, cars will pass a cyclist or pedistrian at highway speeds close enough for the cyclist or pedistrian to touch their vehicle. Yet, when I drove on the I-90 bridge in Seattle to work everyday, traffic invariably slowed when we went through the tunnel. I could only assume many people FELT like it was more dangerous though the lanes didn't change width. Therefore, if they couldn't stay in their lane in  the tunnel, they probably should have been driving slower in the first place but most people drive based on feelings. They wouldn't pass a brick wall at the same speed and distance as they would the cyclist or pedistrian. 

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Most drivers have only the vaguest ideas which traffic laws apply to non-drivers. See, for example, routine handwringing about "jaywalking" - many of the cases described, when you actually examine the situation and the traffic code, are in fact legal.

The whole concept of jaywalking is actually,  to me, symbolic of a difference.  To my knowledge, it is only illegal for a pedestrian to cross in the UK on a motorway, i.e. freeway. Otherwise a pedestrian can cross. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Around here auto drivers are very tuned in to pedestrians, but also pedestrians tend to obey traffic laws.

Bikes as a group don’t obey traffic laws.  They don’t stop at stop signs or even red lights if they think they might get away with proceeding safely.  They don’t make hand signals when they are turning.  They use crosswalks like they are pedestrians, which they are not supposed to do unless they are walking their bikes.  

I used to be very sympathetic to bike riders as a group, and undeniably it is hard to find safe place to ride around here, but they are making it hard to respect them because they drive auto drivers crazy by being so unpredictable and breaking the law.  Also, in general, it ticks me off that we have so many people lobbying for separate, publicly funded bike paths but then not making them safe for women.  In my city we just had a historic, gorgeous, usable train trestle torn down and replaced with a generic bridge, at public expense, millions of dollars spent, in an area where it’s going to be too dangerous for women to ever go after dark, and not super safe during the day.  

Wow, that sounds awful. There are a lot of (athletic) bicyclists near me; I think there are clubs and sometimes there are races. Typically, the bicyclists I encounter know the laws, obey the laws and drive carefully. The maddening issue for me is that they ride on roads that are ill-suited to the purpose for the reasons I mentioned. 

[J-rap]

5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I know that Austria has seen a large increase in bicycle accidents in the past year which they are concerned about; and they have found that the accidents are becoming more serious.  The increase is being attributed to the increase in e-bikes which has dominated sales of new bikes recently. 

That's interesting...  For international travelers, Austria is considered a country with great cross-country trails.  Maybe their inner-city routes aren't as good.  I wonder why e-bikes make a difference?

[J-rap]

My ds and dh biked through Europe some years ago, starting in Norway and ending in Turkey.   It varied so much from country to country.   Scandinavia in general has good trails and routes and their drivers are super considerate of bikers.  They did have some hair-raising days in Eastern Europe, where drivers had less patience with bikers.  The share-the-road concept was definitely not something that was known there!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, J-rap said:

My ds and dh biked through Europe some years ago, starting in Norway and ending in Turkey.   It varied so much from country to country.   Scandinavia in general has good trails and routes and their drivers are super considerate of bikers.  They did have some hair-raising days in Eastern Europe, where drivers had less patience with bikers.  The share-the-road concept was definitely not something that was known there!

What a fantastic adventure for them to have! 

[J-rap]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

What a fantastic adventure for them to have! 

It was pretty special, yes.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Wow, that sounds awful. There are a lot of (athletic) bicyclists near me; I think there are clubs and sometimes there are races. Typically, the bicyclists I encounter know the laws, obey the laws and drive carefully. The maddening issue for me is that they ride on roads that are ill-suited to the purpose for the reasons I mentioned. 

 

I think that the big assertive claim the roads rides have led to some problems here.  I’m in an older area of Silicon Valley, but I see the same kind of thing in nearbyish San Francisco.

[frogger]

I do think there are two different things going on. 

A) There are cyclists that are bad drivers. Period. They don't follow rules or safety proceedures and come across as very entitled. The funny thing is, these people are probably entitled car drivers too. It is just car drivers notice them when they are on a bike because a cyclist is different from them and therefore noticable as different. Perhaps, they are sweet and considerate and use their turn signal and follow all the rules while in a vehicle with doors and a seatbelt but I doubt it. Unless you are speaking of kids or people in poverty most cyclists are also drivers.

B) A large number of times drivers just don't know why a cyclist is doing something. When I actually started biking my whole perspective changed. Like the example of lights on sensors that don't detect bikes that I mentioned above, as driver of a large vehicle, you just never come across those things.

 

I could give you examples why at times I must leave a bike trail for the side of the road. I do wait until there is no traffic but there are two places locally that my life became endangered when trying to use a trail to the end. Once an elderly man came to my rescue seeing that I was not going to be allowed to cross at the signed designated trail crossing by the traffic. He had been watching me while waiting his turn to reach the intersection. Twice cars came within arms reach as they cut the corner turning right but I couldn't cross and get out of there. The man who came to my rescue simply pulled out when there was room for him but then stopped across both lanes and waved me. I will never use that trail to the end again. I will cross where there is a straight stretch and not an intersection of roads where I have to watch traffic in ALL directions, even behind me, which cars never have to do. I'm sure drivers who pass me during that 1/2 mile are grumbling about me not using the bike trail. Did I use it the first 10 miles? Yes. Will I get back on it after the intersection? Yes. Is my life more important than drivers having to swing to the left a couple feet or slowing them down for 15-20 seconds?  Yes Will they ever know anything other than, "that stupid cyclist isn't on the trail.". Probably not.

If you are on a sidewalk you have to go less than 10 mph which is right. People walk on a sidewalk. It isn't made for cycling. It us illegal (rightfully so) to use your bike on downtown sidewalks where I live.  Yet drivers get angry if you are on the road despite it being the law and that that area has a speed limit that puts it more in line with cyclists speeds than not. I do avoid down town though. I try to stay on trails and would probably push my bike on the sidewalk if I got stuck down there.

Most people don't realize that in some places trails require bikes to stop for every single driveway or road that pulls onto the main road. Trying commuting when you literally have to stop every 20 feet. If you are going to work, that simply isn't an option. 

Basically, what I'm saying is though there are jerk cyclists, just as there are lots of jerk motorists, I really think there is a lot of misunderstanding by people who have never experienced commuting by bike or even walking for that matter.

Edited September 11, 2020 by frogger

[frogger]

Sorry Quill. I didn't mean to get off topic and respond to the other posts.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

Sorry Quill. I didn't mean to get off topic and respond to the other posts.

No problem! There’s room for all the conversations.

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, J-rap said:

That's interesting...  For international travelers, Austria is considered a country with great cross-country trails.  Maybe their inner-city routes aren't as good.  I wonder why e-bikes make a difference?

There are many forms that cycling takes in Austria--from commuting to road racing to leisurely weekend rides to off-road mountain biking.  I just happen to remember a news report (in German--which I am not fluent) that I heard when I was there earlier this year about the increased incidence of accidents.  There was speculation that e-bikes were contributing to the increase with several possible reasons--more people were riding that hadn't ridden before (and were not as athletic and more prone to accidents), they were being used in cities and high traffic areas for commuting--so you just had more cycle traffic and would have more accidents in absolute terms, or you had more people in the mountains at a higher speed with an e-bike that was leading to more accidents and more severe accidents.

[TCB]

I don’t know actual numbers, and it’s probably better now, but when I worked in an ER in London in the 80s the ER staff referred to cyclists as ‘organ donors’. 

[J-rap]

12 minutes ago, TCB said:

I don’t know actual numbers, and it’s probably better now, but when I worked in an ER in London in the 80s the ER staff referred to cyclists as ‘organ donors’. 

Wow -- working in the ER in London!  That's a story!

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I do think there are two different things going on. 

A) There are cyclists that are bad drivers. Period. They don't follow rules or safety proceedures and come across as very entitled. The funny thing is, these people are probably entitled car drivers too. It is just car drivers notice them when they are on a bike because a cyclist is different from them and therefore noticable as different. Perhaps, they are sweet and considerate and use their turn signal and follow all the rules while in a vehicle with doors and a seatbelt but I doubt it. Unless you are speaking of kids or people in poverty most cyclists are also drivers.

B) A large number of times drivers just don't know why a cyclist is doing something. When I actually started biking my whole perspective changed. Like the example of lights on sensors that don't detect bikes that I mentioned above, as driver of a large vehicle, you just never come across those things.

 

I could give you examples why at times I must leave a bike trail for the side of the road. I do wait until there is no traffic but there are two places locally that my life became endangered when trying to use a trail to the end. Once an elderly man came to my rescue seeing that I was not going to be allowed to cross at the signed designated trail crossing by the traffic. He had been watching me while waiting his turn to reach the intersection. Twice cars came within arms reach as they cut the corner turning right but I couldn't cross and get out of there. The man who came to my rescue simply pulled out when there was room for him but then stopped across both lanes and waved me. I will never use that trail to the end again. I will cross where there is a straight stretch and not an intersection of roads where I have to watch traffic in ALL directions, even behind me, which cars never have to do. I'm sure drivers who pass me during that 1/2 mile are grumbling about me not using the bike trail. Did I use it the first 10 miles? Yes. Will I get back on it after the intersection? Yes. Is my life more important than drivers having to swing to the left a couple feet or slowing them down for 15-20 seconds?  Yes Will they ever know anything other than, "that stupid cyclist isn't on the trail.". Probably not.

If you are on a sidewalk you have to go less than 10 mph which is right. People walk on a sidewalk. It isn't made for cycling. It us illegal (rightfully so) to use your bike on downtown sidewalks where I live.  Yet drivers get angry if you are on the road despite it being the law and that that area has a speed limit that puts it more in line with cyclists speeds than not. I do avoid down town though. I try to stay on trails and would probably push my bike on the sidewalk if I got stuck down there.

Most people don't realize that in some places trails require bikes to stop for every single driveway or road that pulls onto the main road. Trying commuting when you literally have to stop every 20 feet. If you are going to work, that simply isn't an option. 

Basically, what I'm saying is though there are jerk cyclists, just as there are lots of jerk motorists, I really think there is a lot of misunderstanding by people who have never experienced commuting by bike or even walking for that matter.

I don’t mind when cyclist leave their trails for good reasons.
And I don’t mind when they assert the lane clearly for safety reasons.  I have followed cyclists for miles on curvy windy roads where they were going very slowly but I didn’t think it was safe to pass them.  When I saw that, I was always glad when they rode in the middle or left side of the lane, so that no one would try to pass the both of us.  That’s necessary, and although inconvenient it’s right.

What I hate is when cyclists get angry at pedestrians on narrow sidewalks instead of extending them the same courtesy.  Particularly elderly, frail ones.

Or when they act random so you can’t figure out what they are going to do, at all.  Once I was driving in a quiet, modern neighborhood with wide streets, and a woman on a recumbent bike pulled around a corner in front of me.  She proceeded to ride in a wide S pattern up the street for several blocks.  It was very distracting, and also it was hard to tell whether she was preparing to make a left turn, turn right into a driveway, or just acting nuts.  Acting nuts was my eventual conclusion as this went on and one.  Several people in the oncoming side of the street stopped for her, thinking she was going to turn in front of them.  It was stupid and pretty dangerous.  

Or when they run red lights without even slowing down, causing panic stop attempts by auto drivers, and leaving havoc behind.  There is a guy who regularly commutes speedily up San Carlos Street who does that all the time.  I have seen him often.  One day he passed me at a red light (we were going in the same direction), and continued up the street.  A couple of blocks later I caught up with him, at another red light, and he was on the ground next to his bike.  A car had clipped him or pulled in front of him or something—I did not see that part.  The driver had gotten out of the car and was almost crying he was so upset.    The biker got to his feet and shook himself off.  He did not accuse the driver of anything, the driver was expressing concern but saying that he didn’t see him and had a green light.  I could well believe that.  The cyclist seemed uninjured so I kept on going.  About four blocks up, you guessed it, he came barreling by me again at another red light.  I’ll bet that driver did not get over this for a long time, and it was completely unnecessary.

Every month there is a huge mass evening ride in our city, with hundreds of cyclists participating.  It’s a great party atmosphere in some ways, with decorated bikes and crazy lights and often a smattering of boomboxes along.  And yes, it is on a route where they can take one of two lanes, generally, and leave room for cars.  Although that is not followed perfectly, the large mass of riders makes it reasonably easy to see that it’s time to slow down and be careful.  But a sizable minority of the riders must not normally ride at night because they don’t have any lights at all.  This is not a problem on the ride itself, but as they make their way home in the dark through the neighborhoods, they are extremely hard to see.  They are supposed to have lights on or not ride on the roads at night.  That’s just basic.

I support the rights of cyclists to be on the road and be safe, but they need to follow the rules of the road.

[frogger]

37 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t mind when cyclist leave their trails for good reasons.
And I don’t mind when they assert the lane clearly for safety reasons.  I have followed cyclists for miles on curvy windy roads where they were going very slowly but I didn’t think it was safe to pass them.  When I saw that, I was always glad when they rode in the middle or left side of the lane, so that no one would try to pass the both of us.  That’s necessary, and although inconvenient it’s right.

What I hate is when cyclists get angry at pedestrians on narrow sidewalks instead of extending them the same courtesy.  Particularly elderly, frail ones.

Or when they act random so you can’t figure out what they are going to do, at all.  Once I was driving in a quiet, modern neighborhood with wide streets, and a woman on a recumbent bike pulled around a corner in front of me.  She proceeded to ride in a wide S pattern up the street for several blocks.  It was very distracting, and also it was hard to tell whether she was preparing to make a left turn, turn right into a driveway, or just acting nuts.  Acting nuts was my eventual conclusion as this went on and one.  Several people in the oncoming side of the street stopped for her, thinking she was going to turn in front of them.  It was stupid and pretty dangerous.  

Or when they run red lights without even slowing down, causing panic stop attempts by auto drivers, and leaving havoc behind.  There is a guy who regularly commutes speedily up San Carlos Street who does that all the time.  I have seen him often.  One day he passed me at a red light (we were going in the same direction), and continued up the street.  A couple of blocks later I caught up with him, at another red light, and he was on the ground next to his bike.  A car had clipped him or pulled in front of him or something—I did not see that part.  The driver had gotten out of the car and was almost crying he was so upset.    The biker got to his feet and shook himself off.  He did not accuse the driver of anything, the driver was expressing concern but saying that he didn’t see him and had a green light.  I could well believe that.  The cyclist seemed uninjured so I kept on going.  About four blocks up, you guessed it, he came barreling by me again at another red light.  I’ll bet that driver did not get over this for a long time, and it was completely unnecessary.

Every month there is a huge mass evening ride in our city, with hundreds of cyclists participating.  It’s a great party atmosphere in some ways, with decorated bikes and crazy lights and often a smattering of boomboxes along.  And yes, it is on a route where they can take one of two lanes, generally, and leave room for cars.  Although that is not followed perfectly, the large mass of riders makes it reasonably easy to see that it’s time to slow down and be careful.  But a sizable minority of the riders must not normally ride at night because they don’t have any lights at all.  This is not a problem on the ride itself, but as they make their way home in the dark through the neighborhoods, they are extremely hard to see.  They are supposed to have lights on or not ride on the roads at night.  That’s just basic.

I support the rights of cyclists to be on the road and be safe, but they need to follow the rules of the road.

 

I think what you are describing is definitly group A, which is why I said there is both groups.  🙂

I have seen both behaivors though it really depends on the culture of the riders and what kinds of groups you get around. A hoard of kids often act differently than an adult going to work. The guy riding because he lost his licence due to a DUI will act differently than a mom with kids to keep safe.

I will judge each rider and driver on their own actions. 

 

I'm one of those moms whose kids have lights both headlights and flashing tail lights and signal etc. I definitly look out for elderly and little toddlers and have gotten mad at a cyclist focused on his time or some such racing by little kids on bikes but I do find that my in laws remember that one cyclist from 2 months ago to go off on while I can name 10-15 cars I have a problem with every single day I go out. 

 

I have also had people endanger my life through disobeying the law (remember that trail that ended in a signed and marked crosswalk that they were legally required to stop at but it required force by someone in a big vehicle to obey the law) but I don't think ALL drivers are bad. The jerks are jerks and there are kind people out there too. 

Not all cyclists are the same and not all drivers are the same. I personally don't like being lumped in with American drivers. 😂 

 

ETA: But most drivers would not readily see why I couldn't cross at a designated and singed trail crossing. So they won't THINK I have a good reason not realizing that 15 minutes of steady traffic would pass me and endanger me so yep, MOST drivers where I live are AWFUL. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by frogger

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, TCB said:

I don’t know actual numbers, and it’s probably better now, but when I worked in an ER in London in the 80s the ER staff referred to cyclists as ‘organ donors’. 

Provision for cyclists and driver behaviour are very variable in the UK. This table surprised me though because I  thought Britain would he higher than other countries. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/statistics/dacota/bfs20xx_cyclists.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjk16qvnODrAhWyyIUKHWJtCFIQFjALegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2SIcSb6TRV2iD7kAwPRqqE

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Laura Corin

9 hours ago, frogger said:

 

This is actually legal in many areas.  Lights that are timed work well but any intersection that is set up to change when it detects a vehicle will not dectect a bike. Most won't even detect a motorbike. I remember a motorcyclist waving me up close when I pulled up behind him. He rolled into the crosswalk so I could take his place as the first vehicle and the light finally changed. I have no idea how long he waited before I got there but it did take some time for me to understand what he was waving to me about etc. It simply wouldn't have changed if I would have just stayed back. 

 

ETA: Most people who ride to work, do not do so in their business suit unless they live very close so it isn't good to judge by that.

 I don’t know of any lights around here that are set up to change when a vehicle is detected.  Maybe those are newer, not sure.  I would have expected a button in the crosswalk for pedestrians or bikes in that situation.  Our lights seem to be timed to speed limit or more general traffic patterns, but some do go flashing at certain times (like near schools) during off times.  I get that most people don’t commute in a business suit, but I see many of my egregious examples on Sunday mornings in people decked out with Specialized emblazoned across their chest quite often riding with others.  I also doubt too many people are commuting in those recumbent bikes that you can’t even see until you are coming over a hill.  They really seem to hate to stop.  I can’t speak to other states, but bicycles are required to obey traffic signals in Michigan.  I do know one of my old supervisors gave up road biking and switched to mountain biking because he decided road biking was too dangerous around here.  Back to European accidents, Europe does have the distinct advantage that people drive smaller cars.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

 I don’t know of any lights around here that are set up to change when a vehicle is detected.  Maybe those are newer, not sure.  I would have expected a button in the crosswalk for pedestrians or bikes in that situation.  Our lights seem to be timed to speed limit or more general traffic patterns, but some do go flashing at certain times (like near schools) during off times.  I get that most people don’t commute in a business suit, but I see many of my egregious examples on Sunday mornings in people decked out with Specialized emblazoned across their chest quite often riding with others.  I also doubt too many people are commuting in those recumbent bikes that you can’t even see until you are coming over a hill.  They really seem to hate to stop.  I can’t speak to other states, but bicycles are required to obey traffic signals in Michigan.  I do know one of my old supervisors gave up road biking and switched to mountain biking because he decided road biking was too dangerous around here.  Back to European accidents, Europe does have the distinct advantage that people drive smaller cars.

 

Michegan certainly has sensored lights, you probably just never realized it being a car driver. I can't imagine a state that doesn't but it does appear that it is still illegal to proceed through a light even if it won't trigger, which is of course, very dangerous for riders. 

It does appear that it was been challenged some time ago but my quick and non thorough search, I'd rather go to bed ;), didn't provide much info other than this https://www.mlive.com/news/2012/12/traffic_talk_is_it_legal_to_ru.html

 

 

[frogger]

"Where these strategies have been successfully implemented — New York City, Portland, Cambridge, and Seattle, along with Washington, DC — biking has skyrocketed and traffic fatality rates have dropped at a much higher rate than in other cities. Between 2000 and 2012, there has been a four-fold increase in the number of people biking to work in DC while the traffic fatality rate fell from 9 per 100,000 to 3 per 100,000. " from the Vox article linked above.

I know you were asking about Europe but this is a good indicator of what happens when you make the roads more friendly for all people.

I can't even comprehend how much easier it would be to give up my keys as an elderly person if I could still keep my freedom and not have to rely on others to do anything. In many cases the elderly only lose their keys after a catastrophe.  I also have a brother with Down Syndrom and a brother in law that also has mental disabilities. They will never be able to drive and their freedom totally depends on us not making roads safer to be able to walk. 

A decrease in the traffic fatality rate of 66% is huge.  There is no way bikes, even electric bikes, will be ever be able to compete with the car in speed or mass. Physics completely precludes that possibility and fatalities should decrease.

 

[frogger]

On 9/10/2020 at 3:42 AM, Sherry in OH said:

EU data for 2018 - https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/sites/roadsafety/files/pdf/statistics/dacota/bfs20xx_cyclists.pdf

 

 

Wow, the male versus female and age breakdowns were really interesting.

[Matryoshka]

On 9/10/2020 at 11:34 AM, Quill said:

From my limited knowledge, yes, they do, as well as more bike parking and other ways bicycling is promoted over driving cars. 

Bicycling where I live is, IMO, very dangerous for the reason you mention above: no shoulder, high speeds. Also, often very twisty roads. I know of someone who was seriously injured on a bicycle when a deer ran into him. 

Here's a Dutch guy's perspective on the insanity that is cycling in the US vs the Netherlands.  It addresses all this and more - it mentions you're 30x more likely to be injured while riding a bike in the US than in the NL (though the NL is bike nirvana; the rest of the EU isn't as utopian for cyclists, but likely still generally better than in the US):

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Matryoshka