how to handle situation with kids' friends

[caedmyn]

**PLEASE don't quote--will delete later for privacy.**

My 9 & 11 YOs are friend with a girl and boy (siblings) who are close in age to them.  DS11 considers the boy (I'll call him A) to be his best friend.  We used to live near them and they saw them weekly but we've moved a bit further away and they don't see them often now.  The older sister of the two kids often babysits for us, and the mom periodically asks about having my kids over there or have one or both kids come over here.  The problem is that these kids don't follow rules, lie, and generally tend to act up.  The last several times my kids have played with them there has been some sort of incident.  Now my kids are far from angels, and are not particularly truthful themselves, so I generally take what they say with a few grains of salt.  However, there's been enough incidents with these other kids and enough that I've observed myself that in these instances I believe what my kids are reporting.  I'm willing to let them play with these kids very occasionally (maybe 3-4 times a year max), but not more than that.  I know the mom of the other kids has figured out that I stall when she asks to set something up, and I really need to find a way to just say something to her and address the situation head-on (hopefully in a tactful way).  I'm not sure how to do that though.

These are the incidents that have happened with these other kids in the past year:

1. A. came over to play while his sister was mother's helper-ing for me.  I intended to be there the whole time and keep a close eye on him but it turned out that my husband's truck was in the shop for several days and it was finally ready that afternoon and I had to take DH to pick it up and ended up being gone for 1.5 hours.  During this time A. and DS11 got into my DD14's bedroom and took some candy (her door has a passcode lock on it but there was a cat door installed in the door and they were able to unlock the door through the cat door).  I didn't find out about this for a day or two.  I should have said something to the mom when I found out, but I didn't.

2. My older 5 kids went to their house for a couple hours to go swimming in their pool.  I didn't stay (the mom was fine with this and has babysit my kids a number of times so I was ok with it).  DS11 told me afterwards that A. tried to lock my then-3-yo in the trunk of one of their vehicles but he didn't let him.  I feel confident that this happened and was not just a story DS11 told because he doesn't like to tattle on his friends (only his siblings!), and he's very protective of his little brother.  Also, DD told me 6+ months later that when they were swimming that day,  A. grabbed the bottom of her swim suit and yanked down on it like he was trying to pulling it off.  She had a one piece swimsuit on so he was not successful. 

3. A. & his sister came over here for a couple hours.  DH was here for part of the time and I took a shower while he was supervising them.  DH told me after I got done showering that A. was kicking an interior door that we keep locked during the day to keep the boys out of it (this is a door to our bonus room and the entrances to DH's office and DD's room are through the doorway).  DH was very unhappy about this and does not want A. around anymore.  DS11 told me that he told A. not to kick the door but A. wanted to break it down kicked it anyway.

After they left, the mom texted me asking if A. and his sister had done something that bothered DD because they'd told the mom that she called them airheads and another name that I can't remember, and told them to get out of her house.  Now DD did NOT want them to come and said so several times in front of her brothers before the visit, and I suspect this got repeated to them.  However, DD denies saying any of those things.  She is generally truthful and I do believe her.  She frequently calls her brothers jerks but I have never heard her say either of the names A. and his sister said they were called, and it seems out of her character for her to tell them to get out of her house.  Also, I know that she was in her room almost the entire time they were here because she didn't want to be around them.

4. Shortly after this DS11, DS9, and DS7 went to their house to go swimming.  When I picked them up, they all told me that A. had got in trouble a lot for saying and doing things he shouldn't.  DS9 & DS7 insisted that he said the F-word several times and called them and his sister derogatory names.  DS11 says he didn't say any of that.  The younger boys also told me that the mom said that they should just say that he said bad words and not say the specific words he said.  I am not sure whether she was trying to prevent them from telling me what he actually said or not.  One of my kids has used the F word here on a few occasions which is absolutely not ok in my house, particularly since small brothers tend to pick up any bad language the older ones use, so I am not keen on them being around other kids that say it regularly.  (Yes, I know kids like to and do say the F-word...several of our young neighborhood kids like to use it...it but at these ages I'm not comfortable with my kids being exposed to it.)

[Catwoman]

Just say no. 

I don’t think you need to rehash past incidents unless the mom keeps pressing you for an explanation. 

Kids mature at different ages and they develop different interests. Friends grow apart. If the mom asks why you keep saying no, just say the kids don’t seem to have much fun together any more, and if you need to say more than that, mention that the visits always seem to end up with some sort  of drama, and you don’t feel the kids are a good fit for each other right now. You can be gentle about it, while still remaining firm.

Her feelings might be hurt, but there is nothing you can do about that if she confronts you about why you keep avoiding getting together. 

I’m sorry you have to deal with this, but I think it’s a common thing, and you need to do what’s right for your family. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Catwoman
Typo!

[Jaybee]

Well, I would let these friendships die out. I remember around 11-13 that many of my childhood friendships morphed, and kids I had enjoyed playing with moved in different directions. While we were still casual friends, we were no longer "best" friends because our interests and values were beginning to have more weight into who we were becoming. It sounds like A pretty much does whatever he wants, and I wouldn't want that kind of child around mine, especially the little one and my dd. Admittedly, you say your children can be contributors as well, but if your children are easily influenced by a child who ignores their requests and your rules, and does dangerous (3yo) and inappropriate (dd) things, then that is all the more reason to not have him around. It gets sticky trying to explain that to the mom, but for the sake of my kids, I would find some way to do so.

[Jaybee]

#Catwoman said it better.

[Innisfree]

Yes, I'd probably pull back from those friends also. Only possible way I'd be willing to continue would be if

1. You and A's mom are friends and have similar behavior standards for your kids; and

2. You and A's mom can both be present, jointly, to supervise. No other activities during the visit, just both of you supervising all the kids together and agreeing about what is and is not acceptable. That way everyone sees everything, and there's no question about what has actually happened.

Having said that, I don't have as many kids as you do, and I don't know if this is possible. If it isn't, I'd just be too busy to get together, and look for friends who are a better fit.

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

#Catwoman said it better.

 

😁

Actually, I was thinking that you said it better! I thought your point that I bolded below was so important. 

 

17 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Well, I would let these friendships die out. I remember around 11-13 that many of my childhood friendships morphed, and kids I had enjoyed playing with moved in different directions. While we were still casual friends, we were no longer "best" friends because our interests and values were beginning to have more weight into who we were becoming. It sounds like A pretty much does whatever he wants, and I wouldn't want that kind of child around mine, especially the little one and my dd. Admittedly, you say your children can be contributors as well, but if your children are easily influenced by a child who ignores their requests and your rules, and does dangerous (3yo) and inappropriate (dd) things, then that is all the more reason to not have him around. It gets sticky trying to explain that to the mom, but for the sake of my kids, I would find some way to do so.

 

Sure, the woman’s kids use bad language and do inappropriate things... but what matters more to me is exactly what you pointed out — those kids are influencing Caedmyn’s kids to do those things, too. Sure, Caedmyn can use these incidents as teaching moments to try to show her kids that being a follower isn’t a good idea, and that they need to think for themselves and stand up to others when they try to convince them to do bad things — but sometimes kids just aren’t ready to be leaders yet, and it’s best to simply try to avoid situations where they might be tempted to follow along with the bad behavior, until the kids are better equipped to say no. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Catwoman
iPad and I disagreed about the autocorrect thing... again!

[Tanaqui]

This is the normal age where childhood friendships often die and are replaced by adolescent friendships - especially if the kids aren't in close proximity all the time. I think it's okay to just say that your kids aren't very interested in playing with theirs right now.

Or, if that's too direct - don't say it. Don't make excuses, just say "No, that visit won't work for us" and keep saying it until this other mom drops it.

However... this is my response for normal interactions that you just want to let fade. I'm concerned about the story of trying to lock one kid in the trunk (especially such a young child!) and the one about pulling down the bathing suit. These specific incidents are things that this other mother needs to know about. These things are not appropriate at any age, and the fact that it's the same child both times is troubling. And you might say - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if A's mom says this - that these are just one or two isolated incidents... but if you don't tell her, she won't have the context to know if they are isolated or if they're part of a pattern.

[happi duck]

"I'm hesitant because the kids haven't been getting along very well."

If you want to keep a relationship with this family because of the babysitter then invite the kids to your place and don't let them out of your sight.  If something like refusing to stop kicking down the door is witnessed by an adult again then end the playing and tell the mom.

[mathnerd]

I think that A has to be closely supervised around your kids and it is not your job to do so. I have cut out friendships of my son with a few kids in the 9-12 year age range because parenting styles and the values of our families were dissimilar (e.g. little kids allowed to use bad words). Some of those families have moms who actually don't say anything to their kids when they behave poorly nor do they actively parent at all. Their kids did not know that saying certain things or behaving in certain ways were socially unacceptable. And I found out that they were sending their kids over because they observed my parenting style, how I actively correct my boy when he is not being perfect and were hoping that my child was a good influence on theirs 😞 One mom even asked me outright to make time for her child because "he was behaving destructively and playing too many videogames" ... I had to let that friendship go because eventually, I am not responsible for parenting a kid who has lax parenting for most of the time at his home.

I think that this is the age where it is OK for your kids to drop these old friendships and pick up new ones based on common interests. Drop the babysitter (you can do that gradually if you don't want to abruptly do it) and tell the friend that your kids have some activity on Zoom when she asks for playdates. Just drop this relationship and move on.

[Amy in NH]

My kids would not be playing with those kids anymore.  Not even a few times/year. 

I would let the mother know that too many incidents happen when the kids are all together, and it's just not working out.  You don't need to give specific examples - it will become a he-said/she-said thing and the other mom will become defensive.  I'd guess that they are all egging each other on, and they seem like a bad influence on each other.  Just no.  Find a new babysitter/mother's helper, and sever all ties. 

That's my $.02.

[PinkTulip]

#2 alone would make it a hard no for me. 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, PinkTulip said:

#2 alone would make it a hard no for me. 

👍

agree.  

Big gap between F-word and trying to lock a toddler in a trunk.  

 

Hard No. 

 

Just now, Pen said:

👍

agree.  

Big gap between F-word and trying to lock a toddler in a trunk.  

 

Hard No. 

 

Especially topped off by number 3 - the trunk incident was witnessed by a child, but still would have been enough for me.  Trying to kick in the door was witnessed by the husband and my husband would have said never again.  I don’t know if they were listed in chronological order.  Thankfully they aren’t neighbors.  
 

 

[Pen]

54 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

Especially topped off by number 3 - the trunk incident was witnessed by a child, but still would have been enough for me.  Trying to kick in the door was witnessed by the husband and my husband would have said never again.  I don’t know if they were listed in chronological order.  Thankfully they aren’t neighbors.  
 

 

 

I did not read past the trunk. It was a hard no

already.

[Terabith]

Yeah, I started this with, okay, stealing candy from sister....not cool but fairly typical tween hijinks.  But then it escalated.  Both trying to lock a 3 year old in a trunk and also not only trying to kick down a door but REFUSING TO STOP WHEN AN ADULT TOLD HIM TO, that's......not in the realm of normal.  

I'm generally super duper chill about my kids hanging out with bad influences, but no.  No way.  

Edited September 2, 2020 by Terabith

[BlsdMama]

19 hours ago, caedmyn said:

nm

There are a lot of incidences of little to no supervision of kids who act like foolish kids.  Stop the lack of supervision and you can still be friends/have friends with this family if it's that important to you.  It seems like it is important to you and that's okay - but there needs to be a rule if they can't be DIRECTLY supervised, kids need to return to their spot of origin.

Edited September 2, 2020 by BlsdMama

[happi duck]

@BlsdMama

You quoted a "please don't quote" 🙂

[LMD]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

There are a lot of incidences of little to no supervision of kids who act like foolish kids.  Stop the lack of supervision and you can still be friends/have friends with this family if it's that important to you.  It seems like it is important to you and that's okay - but there needs to be a rule if they can't be DIRECTLY supervised, kids need to return to their spot of origin.

I agree. #2 & #4, the most concerning imo, happened at their house and under other mom's watch. I wouldn't trust them to babysit again, certainly not the younger ones. 

Then you just need to decide that if you do catch up, it must be when you can 100% supervise, no errands, no showers. Keep it short, keep it to one planned and supervised activity, these kids cannot handle free play together right now, best to accept that and work around it. 

What did your dh do when the kid was kicking the door? I cannot imagine a kid kicking more than once in front of my dh, he's never had to tell a kid (other than our own) twice - (he's over 6' and scary 😄).

If I wanted to talk to the mom, I'd keep it general, she will likely get defensive otherwise. "Sorry othermom, our kids seem to be bringing out the worst in each other lately! Why don't we try x activity at my place Friday, 2-3.30 pm" And you watch like a hawk the whole time. 

Also, after the pool/yanking suit incident, I'd let my daughter be elsewhere whenever the boys come to play. She needs to feel heard and safe in her own home.

[BlsdMama]

10 hours ago, happi duck said:

@BlsdMama

You quoted a "please don't quote" 🙂

Ugh! I'm sorry - thank you - I'll go delete!

[Katy]

I would normally just let this fade, but the concerns with the son who wants to lock a 3 year old in a trunk, or yank down a girl's swimsuit...  I think I would let the mom know.  I would be very gentle about it because you didn't witness it, "But if it were my child I would want to know."

Mostly because if these aren't isolated incidents but are part of a string of sociopathic behavior he should not only be in therapy, he should be closely supervised at all times.

I may be more paranoid about things like this than typical because of some past foster children situations though.

[SKL]

Hmm, a few thoughts.

Some kids have a kind of chemistry together that leads to choices they would never make alone.  This goes for both your kids and the other family kids.  Sounds like you have that situation, or even if you don't believe that, it could be a diplomatic way to discuss this with the other parent.

Most of the things you described wouldn't really faze me.  I would talk to my kids, and the next time the others came over, I would let them know up front that xyz was not OK last time and they can't do things like that at your house.  I would also up the supervision.  And if they did something and I found out while the kid was still here (like the door kicking incident), I would not be shy about letting the friend know that he can't do that.  Maybe I'd even send him home early to make sure it sinks in.  If his mom asked why, I would be factual about it.

I would not send my daughter over there without more supervision when the boys are around her.  Also I would not ever send my little ones over there (the 3yo in the trunk incident).

An idea would be to have the boys play at their house and have the girls play at your house at the same time.

My kids' friends do many of the things you describe, but they don't rise to the level of cutting off contact for me.  However, I have no problem correcting or yelling at everyone when problems arise.  Still, things happen.  My kids seem to attract friends who are impulsive, and there tend to be minor injuries, messes, and breakage when they come over.  But they aren't horrible kids.  I feel like my kids gain more than we lose by having the get-togethers.

Edited September 2, 2020 by SKL

[QueenCat]

I really don't think you should have to say the kids aren't behaving. The other mom should not be given the impression that your kids are misbehaving. Say nothing rather than put your own kids down.

[City Mouse]

My DS had a friend who was difficult and was only allowed to come over when I was able to devote my full attention to them (I had to stay in the same room). If I was not able to do that, then he could not come over.

I think you are going to need to provide more direct supervision of A both at your house or his if you want this friendship to continue.