Literature in English and History

[scootiepie]

My son (9th) is taking a HS History class at his co-op which includes required reading over the course of a year (Indigo Girl, Across Five Aprils, To Kill a Mockingbird, Sarah Plain and Tall).   I am wondering if it is something I could incorporate into his HS English 1 class as well.   Currently I am looking at EIW 9 which is simply composition and I will be piecing together a literature study to round out his credit.  Not sure if it is frowned upon to have the appearance of "double dipping", so to speak.   i guess I'm just concerned about how it would come across on a transcript.  To be clear, it would not be him doing his history work and me just counting a literature credit, I would have him to a Glencoe or TLP study of the books as well.     Plus I think he would kill me to add a lot of reading on top of this.  Not really his thing.

[Lori D.]

I will mention that Indigo Girl** is middle school level, and Sarah Plain and Tall is upper elementary level, so I probably would not use those as part of a high school Literature study. That would leave Across Five Aprils and To Kill a Mockingbird, so you would want to fill in with other literature.

** = (Or is it this book: The Indigo Girl: A Novel ?)

Is there a nonfiction text or video lecture series for the History as well? (In other words, enough work planned for the History to count as 1 credit.) If so, then yes, you can dig deeper into some of the works from the History as part of a Literature study. For the transcript: count the co-op class and materials used towards the History credit, and count whatever Literature work (i.e. literary discussion or paper, etc.) you do with the 2 novels as part of the English credit.

Most high school English credits are about 1/2 writing and 1/2 literature, and EIW 9 will nicely take care of the writing 1/2 of 1 credit of English. And since you're using EIW 9, what about also doing Essentials in Literature 9? It would not be too much additional reading -- 4 units, one per quarter, with unit 1 covering 6 short stories; unit 2 covering 4 short nonfiction works; unit 3 covering 1 novel (The Hobbit); and unit 4 covering poetry (7-11 poems). That is a very reasonable amount of literature for a student who struggles with or dislikes reading for the lit. part of 1 credit of English: 
- 3 novels -- Hobbit, To Kill aMockingbird, Across Five Aprils)
- 1 unit of short stories
- 1 unit of short nonfiction works
- 1 unit of poetry

One last thought is do the novels as audio books and listen if reading is a difficult or slow process for DS.

For example this version of The Hobbit is 11 hours; To Kill a Mockingbird is a bit over 12 hours; and Across Five Aprils is just under 6 hours. That's just under a total of 30 hours of listening -- at 1 hour/day, 5x/week that's just 6 weeks of a 36-week school year -- 12 weeks if just listening for 30 min/day. If needing to reduce costs, check your library for possible audio book check out. Or consider a subscription to Audible.

BEST of luck as you and DS move into the high school years! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Lori D.

[scootiepie]

Yes, it is The Indigo Girl (2nd one).   There is another history book as the spine of the class, these readings are supplemental and a springboard for discussion and enrichment.

I just settled on EIW 9 (writing) after much wrestling over my options, and changing my plans at the last minute (initially wanted TGTB).   I knew I could either piece together a literature component, or go with EIW literature, but overall not wanting it to be an overwhelming amount of reading.   I appreciate your comments.  I'll check through their site more.

[8filltheheart]

I would not consider Sarah Plain and Tall appropriate at all for high school.  My kids have read it around 3rd grade.  I consider Across Five Aprils a middle school book.  It might be able to be stretched for high school, but I would want to add significantly more lit to To Kill a Mockingbird to create a high school lit credit.

To answer your original question, though, what is he actually using for American history?  What text/book is he using for the basis of the course? Is it an actual high school level text?  The reading list seems light even as a supplement to a history text since they are all historical fiction selections and no primary documents.  I equate that approach to elementary school/middle school, not high school.  I would expect high school to pick it up a notch.  I would want to see a lit class incorporating more to it than Across Five Aprils (I don't actually see that as a good high school lit choice.  I personally wouldn't want to list any of those options on high school course descriptions.)

Edited August 31, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[EKS]

43 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I personally wouldn't want to list any of those options on high school course descriptions.

I agree with the exception of To Kill a Mockingbird.  I'd have no problem listing it as a 9th grade literature selection.  The others I wouldn't list for either high school literature or history.

Edited August 31, 2020 by EKS

[Lori D.]

While I agree in principle with above posters about Across Five Aprils not being a high school level lit. book, if your DS is new to formal literature studies, and struggles with or dislikes reading, I would make 9th grade a *transition* year into literature studies, using some high interest/discussion-meaty YA books as PART of the literature choices.

And since you're already required to read those 4 books to go with the History, yes, I would use To Kill a Mockingbird, and Across Five Aprils if you want, to transition into higher level/formal literature studies.

That's what I frequently need to do In my homeschool high school Lit. & Writing co-op classes. I usually have 20-25% of the students come in with LDs in reading and/or writing. And often as much as 1/3 of the students overall have never done any formal literature study. So to help them jump the hurdle, I include some easier-to-read, but meatier-to-discuss literature works, mixed in with more traditional high school novels, short stories, and poetry.

 

If you do decide to go "do it yourself" rather than go with EiL, the amount of work in the EiL will give you a feel for *minimum* amount of reading, plus the kinds of literature topics and literary elements to cover for high school level Literature studies.

If you end up going DIY, and want any ideas of works + guides that might be a good fit for you, just ask -- I love helping to come up with lit. studies and resources! 😄 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

26 minutes ago, EKS said:

I agree with the exception of To Kill a Mockingbird.  I'd have no problem listing it as a 9th grade literature selection.  The others I wouldn't list for either high school literature or history.

Yes.  I was multitasking and my post wasn't very clear.

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

While I agree in principle with above posters about Across Five Aprils not being a high school level lit. book, if your DS is new to formal literature studies, and struggles with or dislikes reading, I would make 9th grade a *transition* year into literature studies, using some high interest/discussion-meaty YA books as PART of the literature choices.

That's what I frequently need to do In my homeschool high school Lit. & Writing co-op classes. I usually have 20-25% of the students come in with LDs in reading and/or writing. And often as much as 1/3 of the students overall have never done any formal literature study. So to help them jump the hurdle, I include some easier-to-read, but meatier-to-discuss literature works, mixed in with more traditional high school novels, short stories, and poetry.

And since you're already required to read those 4 books to go with the History, yes, I would use To Kill a Mockingbird, and Across Five Aprils if you want, to transition into higher level/formal literature studies.

 

If you do decide to go "do it yourself" rather than go with EiL, the amount of work in the EiL will give you a feel for *minimum* amount of reading, plus the kinds of literature topics and literary elements to cover for high school level Literature studies.

If you end up going DIY, and want any ideas of works + guides that might be a good fit for you, just ask -- I love helping to come up with lit. studies and resources! 😄 

I don't normally disagree with your posts, Lori, but I'm going to go out on a limb this time and disagree b/c of the additional recommendation was THe Hobbit.  The Hobbit is also really a children's book, not high school level.  THere is not much about any of those readings that are high school.  Even To Kill a Mockingbird is often a middle school book; it is the only book that I would equate with high school lit.  While using Across Five Aprils and To Kill a Mockingbird might be ok, they really need to be combined with something more challenging.  The Hobbit combined with something more advanced also works.  I just don't see all of those combined together elevating eachother to a high school course.

 I guess I am skeptical about the actual history course.  Without knowing what the actual history text is, whether taking those books away from that source is even plausible while keeping it a complete course has not been answered by the OP.  I wouldn't have ever designed a high school course with those titles, so it does raise questions.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I don't normally disagree with your posts, Lori, but I'm going to go out on a limb this time and disagree b/c of the additional recommendation was THe Hobbit.  The Hobbit is also really a children's book, not high school level.  THere is not much about any of those readings that are high school.  Even To Kill a Mockingbird is often a middle school book; it is the only book that I would equate with high school lit.  While using Across Five Aprils and To Kill a Mockingbird might be ok, they really need to be combined with something more challenging.  The Hobbit combined with something more advanced also works.  I just don't see all of those combined together elevating eachother to a high school course.

I totally understand where you are coming from with this, and it's good to see other perspectives. 😄

Agree that Across Five Aprils is more of a historical fiction late middle school supplement to history rather than a first-line choice for a lit. study. Also agree that The Hobbit, and often To Kill a Mockingbird, are often done in 8th grade Lit. programs, rather than 9th grade. But those last 2 books do get done often enough in average p.s. 9th grade English classes, so they can both work here, as long as there is some good digging into the books + learning about some literature topics and literary elements + learning how to discuss literature. 

I just keep circling back to OP's comment about DS & reading: "Plus I think he would kill me to add a lot of reading on top of this.  Not really his thing." 

That really suggests either an LD or extreme dislike of reading, plus probably not much/if any previous experience with formal literature studies. That's why I was thinking of keeping it gentle by going with the Essentials in Literature grade 9, which would mesh easily with the Essentials in Writing grade 9 for the writing half of the English credit. And by doing EiL + doing 2 of the required books for the History co-op class in more in-depth to go with the Literature portion of the English credit would help reduce overall reading, since it's "not his thing."

So if doing To Kill a Mockingbird + Across Five Aprils + EIL grade 9 (The Hobbit + 6 short stories + nonfiction unit + poetry unit) isn't a good fill-in for the Lit. portion of the English credit, then what would be good/workable for a student for whom reading "is not really his thing"? 

Maybe choose 4 standard 9th grade novels to cover in depth, along with To Kill a Mockingbird & Across Five Aprils, as the Lit. portion of the English credit? Would 6 novels, 1 of which is middle school level (Across Five Aprils) and 1 of which is To Kill a Mockingbird be enough Literature for a student who (I'm guessing) is new to formal Lit. studies, and who dislikes reading? And what novels would be a good fit for this type of student? Just thinking out loud, and hoping you'll jump in with some good ideas. 😄 
 

1 hour ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

...I guess I am skeptical about the actual history course.  Without knowing what the actual history text is, whether taking those books away from that source is even plausible while keeping it a complete course... 

Can't speak to the History aspect. Not enough info.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

I totally understand where you are coming from with this, and it's good to see other perspectives. 😄

Agree that Across Five Aprils is more of a historical fiction late middle school supplement to history rather than a first-line choice for a lit. study. Also agree that The Hobbit, and often To Kill a Mockingbird, are often done in 8th grade Lit. programs, rather than 9th grade. But those last 2 books do get done often enough in average p.s. 9th grade English classes, so they can both work here, as long as there is some good digging into the books + learning about some literature topics and literary elements + learning how to discuss literature. 

I just keep circling back to OP's comment about DS & reading: "Plus I think he would kill me to add a lot of reading on top of this.  Not really his thing." 

That really suggests either an LD or extreme dislike of reading, plus probably not much/if any previous experience with formal literature studies. That's why I was thinking of keeping it gentle by going with the Essentials in Literature grade 9, which would mesh easily with the Essentials in Writing grade 9 for the writing half of the English credit. And by doing EiL + doing 2 of the required books for the History co-op class in more in-depth to go with the Literature portion of the English credit would help reduce overall reading, since it's "not his thing."

So if doing To Kill a Mockingbird + Across Five Aprils + EIL grade 9 (The Hobbit + 6 short stories + nonfiction unit + poetry unit) isn't a good fill-in for the Lit. portion of the English credit, then what would be good/workable for a student for whom reading "is not really his thing"? 

Maybe choose 4 standard 9th grade novels to cover in depth, along with To Kill a Mockingbird & Across Five Aprils, as the Lit. portion of the English credit? Would 6 novels, 1 of which is middle school level (Across Five Aprils) and 1 of which is To Kill a Mockingbird be enough Literature for a student who (I'm guessing) is new to formal Lit. studies, and who dislikes reading? And what novels would be a good fit for this type of student? Just thinking out loud, and hoping you'll jump in with some good ideas. 😄 
 

Can't speak to the History aspect. Not enough info.

My main objection is that there isn't really a solidly high school level novel included.   I think the short stories/non-ficiton/poetry units would be great.  I would just not want to use the Hobbit bc I see it as another equally lower level book.  I think that the fact that the OP mentioned course descriptions means that she is aware that the titles are going to reflect her student.  (I am also not one who is willing to jump to the conclusion that there are LDs unless a parent specifies that there are.  If there are LDs, the conversation might be different than simply not wanting to read.)

In terms of the history aspect, I think the fact that Sarah Plain and Tall is on a high school history list begs the quality of the course in question.  No apologies there.  My high school kids would be beyond insulted if I handed them that book.  (My 5th grader is studying American history for the very first time this yr and I didn't include it in her list bc I knew she would give me a sideways look if I had included it and she is only 10.) 

[Lori D.]

 

2 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Maybe choose 4 standard 9th grade novels to cover in depth, along with To Kill a Mockingbird & Across Five Aprils, as the Lit. portion of the English credit? Would 6 novels, 1 of which is middle school level (Across Five Aprils) and 1 of which is To Kill a Mockingbird be enough Literature for a student who (I'm guessing) is new to formal Lit. studies, and who dislikes reading? And what novels would be a good fit for this type of student? Just thinking out loud, and hoping you'll jump in with some good ideas. 😄 

 

30 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

My main objection is that there isn't really a solidly high school level novel included.   I think the short stories/non-ficiton/poetry units would be great.  I would just not want to use the Hobbit bc I see it as another equally lower level book.  I think that the fact that the OP mentioned course descriptions means that she is aware that the titles are going to reflect her student.  (I am also not one who is willing to jump to the conclusion that there are LDs unless a parent specifies that there are.  If there are LDs, the conversation might be different than simply not wanting to read.)

I do understand with what you're saying. Yes, there needs to be some solid high school works in a high school lit. program. 😄 

To help OP with her question about the Lit. portion of the English credit... What thoughts do you have about my quote of myself above:  If EiL is not enough rigor, and OP goes DIY as she suggested in the original post, what amount of novels, and what kinds of titles would help OP in creating her own 9th grade lit. to go along with EiW for the English credit for a student for whom reading "is not his thing?" 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Lori D. said:

 

 

I do understand with what you're saying. Yes, there needs to be some solid high school works in a high school lit. program. 😄 

To help OP with her question about the Lit. portion of the English credit... What thoughts do you have about my quote of myself above:  If EiL is not enough rigor, and OP goes DIY as she suggested in the original post, what amount of novels, and what kinds of titles would help OP in creating her own 9th grade lit. to go along with EiW for the English credit for a student for whom reading "is not his thing?" 

I want to refrain from making any comment about incorporating Across Five Aprils and To Kill a Mockingbird into a lit credit until I know what the history credit is comprised of.  

[almondbutterandjelly]

OP, as an alternative to the above suggestions, since he is studying US History, you might grab an American Literature book and pull selections from that to round out his Literature.  Do the corresponding activities suggested in the Lit book.  Abeka, Globe Fearon, BJU, LLATL... there are a ton of American Lit books.

(And now I'm also going to plug Washington Irving and Edgar Allan Poe as some of my favorite American Literature authors.)  

 

 

[scootiepie]

I appreciate all of the discussion and insight, and would like to be clear that History credit is not in question here.   The books are simply included to spark discussion and offer some historical analysis of the time period.  Nothing more.   I am dealing with a dysgraphic and ADHD child and books can be tedious.   We did in fact listen to the Hobbit last year on audio and I simply can not imagine this child reading through that book.    Even good books on audio need to have really engaging narrators to draw him in.   I want him to have an enjoyment and appreciation of books, not something that is a chore to get through.    I had to read some really dreadful books in HS and I remember nothing other than hating them and I was a good, overachieving student.  Looking back it was an exercise in futility.  So I am trying to balance his abilities and a proper language credit with books that are not going to make him dread literature for the remainder of high school.   We are just getting started.   

[almondbutterandjelly]

OP, for high school Literature, I figured out what books I wanted to expose my dd to, and then I figured out the least painful ways to do that.  Instead of reading To Kill a Mockingbird or The Lord of the Flies, I bought the dvds.  For Poe, I got graphic novels.  For Washington Irving stories, I bought the ones illustrated by William Moses,  For some other books, I bought the abridged versions, like illustrated classics or the "Real Reads" series.  Usborne has a number of illustrated books, like for Canterbury Tales and Dickens.  Great Gatsby was a pretty easy read.  We did it together and discussed it with some guidance from the Shmoop website.

The content and exposure was what mattered for literature, in my opinion.  

We also used Figuratively Speaking by Learning Works and a Figurative Language bulletin board set throughout high school, covering a bit now and then when it tied in.

I also had a Globe Fearon American Lit book that I pulled the occasional short story from.  

You do what you need to do to accomplish your goals.

(I also usually covered writing separately, like you are doing.  That's why I didn't mention it.)

Best wishes!

[8filltheheart]

19 minutes ago, scootiepie said:

I appreciate all of the discussion and insight, and would like to be clear that History credit is not in question here.   The books are simply included to spark discussion and offer some historical analysis of the time period.  Nothing more.   I am dealing with a dysgraphic and ADHD child and books can be tedious.   We did in fact listen to the Hobbit last year on audio and I simply can not imagine this child reading through that book.    Even good books on audio need to have really engaging narrators to draw him in.   I want him to have an enjoyment and appreciation of books, not something that is a chore to get through.    I had to read some really dreadful books in HS and I remember nothing other than hating them and I was a good, overachieving student.  Looking back it was an exercise in futility.  So I am trying to balance his abilities and a proper language credit with books that are not going to make him dread literature for the remainder of high school.   We are just getting started.   

Thank you for clarifying.  The Hobbit is written at about a 6th grade level, so that means that Across Five Aprils is probably going to be a challenge for him bc it is actually written at with a slightly higher level of difficulty.  (The Hobbit has a Lexile score of 1000 and AFAs is 1100, so not much, but still.) 

I would go with Lori's idea of adding short stories, poems, and 1 non-fiction or other novel.  There are a lot of great American short stories.  Maybe  add something like Fahrenheit 451 or Martian Chronicles.  They are equally lower level reading levels but with more mature themes.  Bradbury has some great short stories that could lead into the books.  (The Veldt is one that my kids definitely remember forever.) 

[EKS]

53 minutes ago, scootiepie said:

I am dealing with a dysgraphic and ADHD child and books can be tedious. 

I'd read aloud to him instead of using audiobooks.  That way you can monitor his attention as well as stop and discuss as needed.  It can actually be quite difficult to maintain attention on an audiobook.