Dysgraphia options: HWT, OT, typing

[4KookieKids]

From reading threads here and other websites about dysgraphia for the last two years, it seems that there are really only three options that people consistently bring up:
1) HWT and/or cursive
2) OT
3) Teach them to type and throw in the towel on handwriting anything.

I have several kiddos who are both dyslexic and dysgraphic. 11 yo has barely legible handwriting but is a fluent typer (not quick, but can turn out a page of double spaced, 12 pt font, writing in an hour), so we are mostly on #3 with him.

7 yo has even worse handwriting and more emotional struggles with writing. She will spend an hour crying over one sentence of copy work that takes her only 5-10 minutes to do. We've done some OT, but moved last year to a location where it's not realistic to continue OT for dysgraphia at this point. We've done / are doing some HWT and cursive. We spend a lot of time practicing with different mediums (air writing, kinetic sand, cloud dough, chalk, wet/dry/try, etc.) I've read a LOT (and was coached by the last OT) regarding proper posture, positioning, grip, strength, etc. I cue her on letter formation on virtually every letter she writes when printing (e.g., she's about to write an 'o' or 'a' or 'd', so I quickly remind her to start at the 2 o'clock before she writes it). 

Any other ideas for what we can be doing at home to address this? I just want to make sure that I'm not missing options that I haven't considered yet.  I'd really like to do all I can to remediate this while she's still young enough to have it actually have an effect. I don't feel like one short sentence a day should be cause for quite as much tears as it usually elicits.

ETA: We have already started the 7 yo on both typing and voice typing, and she gets around with that pretty well (given that she's 7, lol).

Edited August 21, 2020 by 4KookieKids

[PeterPan]

I don't know, sigh. Our team finally was like give up on the handwriting. Right about that age too. His IEP says scribe for anything above a sentence, and frankly I never ask for even that. It's like 40 minutes for a sentence, sigh. His VMI is very low, and frankly doing things like DRAWING did more for his ability to write (by bumping his VMI, hello) than OT ever did. Well one OT had him drawing and I was like ok but we can do that at home. 

So I would say draw every day. VMI=visual motor integration=> see it, motor plan, draw it. So draw right now, little doodles they copy, drawing contests (pick an object, everyone draws). Whatever. Drawing contests are what we did. Drawing a little something every day is going back on the plan. I'm hoping to teach him cursive this year. I have zero thought that he'll write, but who knows. 

At this point, with that really chilled approach, he'll just kind of out of the blue write some words. They look tidy, comfortable, low stress. Your typing success with your ds is a BIG WIN. Whatever you did, do that again, mercy. Typing is on my this is the year we win on it list. So far it has been rough.

Edited August 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[Cake and Pi]

What about tracing instead of copying? At 7yo my dyslexic+dysgraphic DS 10 was dictating his responses and tracing what someone else carefully scribed for him (he was in public school). If he'd been homeschooling I would have let him trace his copywork.

And I second drawing, if that's something your kids are interested in. It might be early for the 7yo, but you could still try. If either has perfectionist tendencies and are likely to get upset if they can't draw what they have in their mind, you might try to guide them toward more abstract or cartoony drawings or even an adult coloring book (not adult themed, just the kind with lots of tiny details).  

My dysgraphic (no dyslexia) DS 12 would still cry if you asked him to draw a simple triangle at age 9. Around 10-11yo he discovered political cartoons and was motivated to create his own, and later short comics. He's made simply amazing progress in the fine-motor department over the last two-ish years between his drawing and origami folding. We're still solidly on step #3 of your list, but if he had to write something (short) by hand, he could now, with messy but readable handwriting and no crying.

[4KookieKids]

Thank you both. I will definitely incorporate drawing. They do like it, but are perfectionists, so I appreciate the heads' up regarding that challenge. 

On a different page I'm on, someone just posted rave reviews of this for their dysgraphic son (it seemed she'd tried everything else, but OT was out of their reach). I'm tempted to give it a try since the reviews are fabulous and it's a lot simpler than driving four kids to OT that's 90 minutes away (each way) on a regular basis. lol.
https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Handwriting-Intervention-BUNDLE-4405410

Edited September 22, 2020 by 4KookieKids

[Lecka]

I think that looks great!

[kbutton]

On 9/21/2020 at 8:32 PM, 4KookieKids said:

Thank you both. I will definitely incorporate drawing. They do like it, but are perfectionists, so I appreciate the heads' up regarding that challenge. 

On a different page I'm on, someone just posted rave reviews of this for their dysgraphic son (it seemed she'd tried everything else, but OT was out of their reach). I'm tempted to give it a try since the reviews are fabulous and it's a lot simpler than driving four kids to OT that's 90 minutes away (each way) on a regular basis. lol.
https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Handwriting-Intervention-BUNDLE-4405410

I think those resources look very reasonable--I hope they are a big help! I am going to mention some red flags if you continue to have trouble. We have a variety of factors in our house leading to dysgraphia (and also disorder of written expression), and some of it is anatomical vs. a learning issue or an OT/reflex issue.

I looked at the preview, and one thing that they mentioned is far point copying. If you notice issues with near or far point copying, it can be vision related (which can also be related to retained reflexes), or it can directly be a result of retained reflexes. I think it's STNR reflex that makes the hands and eyes move together long past time. What it ends up looking like is the student losing his place all the time. So, my son would move his eyes to copy something new, and his hand would move too. Then, when he looked down to copy (from near or far point), and his hand would no longer be where it was before. Or, he would move his hand to write, and his eyes would move, so he couldn't just look at one spot while writing in another. It was maddening but not particularly obvious. When he worked on Moro reflex and then specifically on STNR/ATNR (which wouldn't improve without Moro work in his case), it was so, so helpful!!! If it's not a reflex issue, it can be an accomodation issue with vision. More on that later.

So, anatomy problems--if your child is hypermobile at all, that could be part of the issue. My son is hypermobile, and his fingers are disproportionately long due to a connective tissue disorder (the length is specific to his CTD, but all people with a CTD are going to be hypermobile, possibly in the hands). Kids who are hypermobile might need stabilization to write better; some people where a variety of finger and hand splints for support or to avoid pain, though not everyone finds their hypermobility to be painful in and of itself. In my son's case, it helped a great deal to play an instrument because his piano teacher very, very carefully built up his finger strength and stability while making it fun. Handwriting issues are nearly ubiquitous among people with connective tissue disorders, but oddly, it's not mentioned a whole lot in the literature. In attending a conference for people with my son's disease, we found out that it's a HUGE, huge issue. Some connective tissue disorders are life-threatening (most are not), but even the serious ones have specialized monitoring that can often normalize life expectancy, so I wanted to suggest a genetic evaluation if hypermobility is an issue with your kiddos. Many people who have a CTD are not diagnosed. My son's is rare--between 1 in 5000 to 1 in 10000 with 50% of people affected being undiagnosed. The life expectancy for undiagnosed people with his condition is around age 40, but it's within a few years of normal with treatment. Anyway, sorry for the long-winded PSA! 

Vision issues--you probably have heard of VT and things like convergence problems. My son has accommodation issues that are sometimes worked on with VT, but due to his specific CTD, that aspect of VT won't work for him. He might eventually use bifocals. His CTD causes the tissues that hold the eye lens in place and help it focus to be loosey-goosey, and it also causes moderate to severe near-sightedness/astigmatism that also contributes to near-focusing problems. Again, this is not a factor for all CTD's, but it is for some.

Finally, Rooted in Language has some resources as well. I did not feel like their specific resources for dysgraphia were helpful for either of my kids, but lots of people do find them helpful. You might check them out after working through your packets if you feel like you want a next step or additional ideas.

Both of my kids have functional handwriting to a point, and then we use accommodations or typing for the rest. Once keyboarding is established, we type Sequential Spelling to reinforce spelling patterns and motor patterns simultaneously.

[ktgrok]

On 9/21/2020 at 8:32 PM, 4KookieKids said:

Thank you both. I will definitely incorporate drawing. They do like it, but are perfectionists, so I appreciate the heads' up regarding that challenge. 

On a different page I'm on, someone just posted rave reviews of this for their dysgraphic son (it seemed she'd tried everything else, but OT was out of their reach). I'm tempted to give it a try since the reviews are fabulous and it's a lot simpler than driving four kids to OT that's 90 minutes away (each way) on a regular basis. lol.
https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Handwriting-Intervention-BUNDLE-4405410

I was just going to reccomend Print Path! Their materials are amazing. My son practiced handwriting using a variety of programs for preK and K, and STILL couldn't make pretty much ANY letters when he hit first grade. Not even numbers properly. Nothing. 

We went to Print Path, starting with Numbers Now and then Lowercase at Last and going on from there, and it was amazing! He doesn't have great handwriting, but legible, and he makes most letters properly or close to it. It's a huge difference. 

We also make sure to do lots of monkey bars, climbing, etc and I'd advise encouraging some writing or drawing on an verticle surface like a white board, above the shoulder, to encourage shoulder muscle development. 

[homeschoolkitty]

All these resources look great! Something that I have used is the clock to teach the letters, but I made a page with clocks so my kids could write on each clock for small words. Also, in my case my kids needed the color doted line in the middle differentiated from the red baseline vs the blue top guide. My kids had no spatial connection to all black lines. Look at the screen picture of the design for upper case.

find a free sample download here.

Mrs. Q

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by homeschoolkitty
including a picture

[happycc]

very simple drawing resources please...

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, happycc said:

very simple drawing resources please...

OTs usually back it up to something like grid drawing and completing the 2nd side of the drawing. There probably are workbooks of them, but you can also just google. I think our OT was finding the grid drawing on pinterest, google image, etc., which makes it easy to fit any special interests your dc has. And they'll do things like cutting the squares apart and drawing them out of a bag to do one at a time, etc. If it's very hard, sometimes you need to back it up like that. So one square might have literally *one* swoop line, that's it. And it's ok to complete the drawing over sessions. 

Alternately, I'm seeing some exercises where they do drawing to work on auditory. So the dc would need to have a fixed image in his mind of what the target (a triangle, a line, whatever) looks like, but you use language to tell them what to draw.

But that's not working on the VMI (visual motor integration). My ds' VMI was in the toilet, which has all kinds of consequences, and drawing, any kind of drawing, is stellar. But if you're targeting VMI, remember you're wanting them to take something in with their eyes, process, and kick it out. So they can draw from objects around the house. We did some of that, where we'd have a drawing contest for a week and each day take turns picking objects to draw. My ds responds *better* to that than grid drawing. He can do the grid drawing with enough support. He has zero patience for drawing from steps, even though *I* think it's such a great task, lol. 

Tracing is nice, but it's not going to hit the VMI. I think I'd probably do mazes over tracing, just me. Mazes are GREAT, very beneficial. Maybe do tracing recreationally or just once in a week and do the mazes and other forms of drawing more often. Of course I say that, and the Cursive Logic I have waiting to start with him (once we finish our typing) is heavy on tracing. 

We got noticeable improvements in writing just from working on drawing a few minutes daily for a few weeks. Now every kid is different. And that was the drawing contest where we would pick objects. And I think part of why it worked was because it could fit him exactly where he was and because it had the social component. He's socially motivated. 

Your ds is young, right? There's a PT type handwriting program I got years ago. You can find workbooks like this, where they'll have you add zig zags to the dragon, lines or dots, little circles, etc. to complete pictures. It's another thing. But that's more about that fine motor control. So it really depends on what you're trying to target (VMI, fine motor, auditory). It's all valid. 

Do you know what weaknesses you're trying to target? What things does he enjoy that you could harness? And what is working with fine motor activities so far? You could back it up farther and do with a stylus on a magnetic board, on a boogie board (LED), in a tray of salt/sand, with finger paint. Doesn't have to be super fine motor if that's not where he's at. 

Your ds is very close to K5 age, and in K5 it's pretty normal to have easels and let the kids paint. So they see an object and paint it or have it in their minds and paint it. It's gross motor instead of fine motor, and OTs are always going to want to work on gross motor before fine motor. Then you can morph to a whiteboard, drawing at the easel with markers, etc. You can step it like that, depending on where he's starting.

When we did the "contest" we were both drawing and would offer comments. That brings in that social piece, haha. My draws are pretty awful, haha, so he got to learn to say only NICE things and PRAISE. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by PeterPan

[happycc]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Your ds is young, right? There's a PT type handwriting program I got years ago. You can find workbooks like this, where they'll have you add zig zags to the dragon, lines or dots, little circles, etc. to complete pictures. It's another thing. But that's more about that fine motor control. So it really depends on what you're trying to target (VMI, fine motor, auditory). It's all valid. 

Do you know what weaknesses you're trying to target? What things does he enjoy that you could harness? And what is working with fine motor activities so far? 

You always have such involved responses that takes me a bit to answer. I have to sit and digest each piece bit by bit. My son does not like to draw. And often when he draws doesn't even remotely look like the object-looks like scribbles. However if he is holding the mouse and drawing on the screen, then it looks a whole lot more like the object. His idea of drawing is getting a bunch of colors and making a mixture on the paper. So when I asked him to draw a turtle he got brown and green and just colored the whole page with both those colors. No round shape with four elongated parts and no eyes or mouth. 

Very heart breaking for me as I was hoping he could at least express himself by drawing if he couldn't do it with writing or reading. 

[Drama Llama]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:53 PM, happycc said:

very simple drawing resources please...

For younger kids I’ve worked with, one thing that I have done is to really separate the pieces of drawing.

So there is a piece of drawing that is about having an idea, holding an image of it in your mind and breaking that image apart.  I do a lot of work on that with having kids tell me what to draw, and doing craft projects where kids select and combine things to make an image.  

There is a piece of drawing that is about fine motor.  You can build fine motor in many ways that don’t involve making representational art.  You can build up the stability you need for fine motor on the playground or by using a big paintbrush and water to paint the house.  You can build the fine motor skills with eye droppers or turkey blasters in the bathtub, or by using scissors to cut up a banana for smoothies.  

There is a piece that’s about using your eyes and body together.  You can do that by kicking a soccer ball or picking shiny coins out of a bean tray or eating a meal of tiny foods like Cheerios and blueberries.

While these things are developing, I’d do lots of free art with no pressure to be representational until you see some consistent patterns that the kid can control and reproduce.  So if your kid is beginning to show lots of longer smooth lines, then get dot markers and butcher paper and make maps for hotwheels cars to drive on.  If they’re rolling playdough in their hands and smushing it then introduce a game of making cookies.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, happycc said:

You always have such involved responses that takes me a bit to answer. I have to sit and digest each piece bit by bit. My son does not like to draw. And often when he draws doesn't even remotely look like the object-looks like scribbles. However if he is holding the mouse and drawing on the screen, then it looks a whole lot more like the object. His idea of drawing is getting a bunch of colors and making a mixture on the paper. So when I asked him to draw a turtle he got brown and green and just colored the whole page with both those colors. No round shape with four elongated parts and no eyes or mouth. 

Very heart breaking for me as I was hoping he could at least express himself by drawing if he couldn't do it with writing or reading. 

So my ds in that position had exceptionally poor VMI=visual motor integration. Has he had an OT eval? An OT isn't necessarily the *fastest* way to get things done, but it's a good way for you to come up to speed on more that can be done. 

Odds are the OT would eval and back up and start with gross motor. Large movements with his arms, things like climbing on a jungle gym, working his way through obstacle courses you set up (under a chair, over a pile of pillows, through a tunnel, etc. He can *throw* things at targets, things like sticky balls. Finger paint, standing at an easel doing anything.

You know, at that age/stage we did Djeco kits. Timberdoodle sells them and they're WONDERFUL! They have some finger finger painting where you do drops of color and mix and apply. Super adorable products, very sastifying. And they had others with stickies you peeled back and glitter to apply. But start simple. Timberdoodle includes one with each of their early grade kits, so they give you an idea. 

[PeterPan]

https://www.amazon.com/First-Book-Drawing-Kumon-Workbooks/dp/1934968021/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=kumon+drawing&qid=1603671135&sr=8-1  Kumon early year books (ages 3-5) were AWESOME for my ds. I can't see samples of this, but it's probably good. Something like that. Oh fooey, I'm seeing a couple images and it looks hard. But, you know, see what happens. 

They also had really adorable cutting books btw, oh my. You would make a couple snips and it would turn into this super cute thing!

Don't cry over what isn't. Look for the cutest thing you can do with what IS.

PS. When they ask someone to draw themselves (or you asking him to draw the turtle), it's also an assessment of body awareness. So ironically, working on his interoception and self awareness (reflexes, sensory, etc.) might improve his understanding of the parts of things to improve that drawing. So like if you want to do the Kumon workbook ad are doing that bear, I'd get out a stuffed bear and have him touch the parts on the bear before drawing them. Find them on himself too. Kwim? 

https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  You can bring interoception work into it. :)

Edited October 26, 2020 by PeterPan

[happycc]

17 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 Has he had an OT eval?

Oh yes tons of OT since three years or four years ago. 

Yes they do gross motor as he couldn't hop on one foot or catch a ball at first. He is getting better. But with SIP, there is a lot of screen time now and lounging. 

I got him signed up with Basketball once a week but then SIP came and shut that down. SIGH. 

He isn't a fan of active movement because he isn't very coordinated. He finally stopped falling down stairs at our house or at least I haven't heard it in awhile. 

We haven't gone to the park since SIP. SAD. I am so neurotic about it all due to his seizures. 

But yes he still gets OT and it is no longer his favorite because it is online now and he doesn't get MNSI from them anymore and listening to some music doing the puzzles and activities. They have a massage table and do all those things while he does these puzzles and worksheets. 

Really heavenly actually. But since SIP NADA! 

[happycc]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Don't cry over what isn't. Look for the cutest thing you can do with what IS.

PS. When they ask someone to draw themselves (or you asking him to draw the turtle), it's also an assessment of body awareness. So ironically, working on his interoception and self awareness (reflexes, sensory, etc.) might improve his understanding of the parts of things to improve that drawing. So like if you want to do the Kumon workbook ad are doing that bear, I'd get out a stuffed bear and have him touch the parts on the bear before drawing them. Find them on himself too. Kwim? 

https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  You can bring interoception work into it. :)

Oooo good info! Thank you PeterPan

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, happycc said:

He isn't a fan of active movement because he isn't very coordinated. He finally stopped falling down stairs at our house or at least I haven't heard it in awhile. 

He should probably have a PT referral. He sounds like he has more going on. Are they giving you a referral for genetics as well? 

[happycc]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

He should probably have a PT referral. He sounds like he has more going on. Are they giving you a referral for genetics as well? 

I am about to draft up an email to his neuro regarding genetics testing (they did a battery of them when he was first dxed with autism i think) PT referral through medical or educational? 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, happycc said:

I am about to draft up an email to his neuro regarding genetics testing (they did a battery of them when he was first dxed with autism i think) PT referral through medical or educational? 

Well you'll get more service if the PT referral is medical. With the problems you're describing that affect daily living and safety (falling), that ought to be an easy ask.

On the genetics, I thought you were saying you were looking into syndromes. They should be able to refer you to geneticists who do that kind of testing. It's definitely not a 23andme thing, lol.

[happycc]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well you'll get more service if the PT referral is medical. With the problems you're describing that affect daily living and safety (falling), that ought to be an easy ask.

On the genetics, I thought you were saying you were looking into syndromes. They should be able to refer you to geneticists who do that kind of testing. It's definitely not a 23andme thing, lol.

Had a meeting with neuro.. He is waitlisted for eeg EMU in SF. He will be getting  a battery of genetic tests. VNS implant is an option if lamictal doesn't work. But doctor is hesitant to do VNS as it makes it hard to get MRI's. Still going through med changing and waiting for hearing aids and recommended to hold off on all assessments until these things stabilizes. 

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, happycc said:

Had a meeting with neuro.. He is waitlisted for eeg EMU in SF. He will be getting  a battery of genetic tests. VNS implant is an option if lamictal doesn't work. But doctor is hesitant to do VNS as it makes it hard to get MRI's. Still going through med changing and waiting for hearing aids and recommended to hold off on all assessments until these things stabilizes. 

I hope you get some answers!

[PeterPan]

58 minutes ago, happycc said:

Had a meeting with neuro..

Sounds like he's on it!