Independent work?

[PeterPan]

I think somehow I got my brain swizzled. 

1-Independent work=things you choose to do independently. Menu, done say 15-30 minutes. Essentially builds leisure skills and ability to busy ones self.

2-Independent work=academic work assigned to be done independently. Involves compliance, less choice. Can be longer. 

The two can overlap for what is being done, but the WHY and the HOW seem different to me.

What am I missing? How do you define which you're doing and why? I think somehow I mixed them in my mind, and now I'm not sure if I should separate them, do both, whatever. Ds has a restricted range of preferred leisure activities, and initially I thought my goal was to busy him with better things. His whole day doesn't need to be academics but it does need to be more than the things he chooses for leisure (highly restricted). But I'm not sure putting things that essentially could be leisure activities (pleasurable youtbue, paint by number, etc.) as assigned work makes sense either. Then I have the compliance issue. This is a child who will be oppositional *even about highly preferred things* simply because they are assigned.

What am I missing here?

[Lecka]

There are various goals you might have.  
 

Independent leisure skills are a thing.  
 

Learning to follow a schedule independently is a thing.

Learning to work independently on academics is a thing.

Questions to think about:  what are your son’s independence skills?  When is he self-directed?  How does he do following directions?  Does he have the same level with everything, or does he have some strong areas and some problematic areas?  
 

You can think about what goal you want independent work to serve.

I have been told that “waiting” can be helped by independent academic skills..... and for example, if my son goes to Sunday School (pre-COVID, sniff) and the teacher has a coloring sheet as an opening activity, my son can do that.  That was a big goal and I was told it would pay off — I have seen it pay off at Sunday School.  So to say — be able to start and work on a task, sitting, that might be used as a transition activity for something like Sunday School ———— that is something we did.

My son doesn’t independently follow a schedule, but that is a popular thing to teach.  And can be taught by doing independent leisure activities that involve steps and following a schedule to do the steps.  
 

To some extent I think everything is good!  

[Lecka]

Another thing to think about is independence skills that might be needed to participate in a group activity.  There are often times kids are supposed to be doing some certain thing on their own, and if they can do it, great, if not, it’s a common time to start getting in trouble.  Or just sit there and then be behind in what is supposed to be going on, or become distracted from what is supposed to be going on.  
 

Then you could think about a class or activity and the kind of thing kids are doing during a down time in the class, while the teacher is focused on other kids, if there is any seat work time or “everybody practice on their own” time in things he might do. 
 

[Lecka]

I have not done this, but heard of it..... people make schedules with a “choice time board” and if there is some restricted interest, they only put 3-4 symbols for that interest.  Like — there would be 3-4 symbols, they could be chosen, but when they were completed, they were used up.

Another thing I haven’t done but have heard of.... people write activities on a popsicle stick and put them in a jar.  A good proportion have restricted interests written on them.  Some are other leisure activities to develop.  The kid draws and will do what is drawn, and know they have a good chance of doing one of their high-value choices.  
 

I have never done these but they’re out there.

I think if you have a goal of developing more leisure skills, make that a separate goal than independent work *at first.*

I think you have to have developed interests already before they are going to be enjoyable

to do independently.

If they really are already enjoyable, it’s just hard to get going with them for some reason — then I think that could work for encouraging independently.

But if it’s more that other leisure activities are not really developed, not really enjoyed, not really familiar and easy to do — it is a previous step to make sure they are familiar enough and easy enough to do, and enough positive experiences with them, that they can be transferred to the independent list.

I think like pp said — at first she had things “on the list” that naturally transitioned to being off the list over time.  I think as parents we like it when that happens but there’s no way to know what things will end up turning out like that and what things won’t.  
 

There is something I go back to too, that is the definition of if something is positively rewarding. If a child does something more after a “positive reward,” then it was actually a positive reward.

Anything that is “supposed to be” a positive reward but doesn’t have that result — it’s not working.

Like you see these stories about how reading logs cause some kids to read less, when there purpose is to get kids to read more.  Well — if the result is less of the action, then it’s not working at all.  
 

The other thing with pp — a choice to limit some preferred activities to a certain period of the day.  That can create space for other activities.  

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

So, for example, when we started homeschooling, my oldest practiced trombone at a set time, for a set number of minutes.  But over time he also started choosing to do it other times, and eventually, he was spending an hour or so a day on it, and I dropped the 20 minutes required practice from the schedule.  Similarly, when my two younger kids were first learning how to be brothers, I would set up a play activity like legos and basically tell them "time to do this".  Now, they ask to play legos, so I don't do that anymore.  I guess that second example wasn't exactly independent work since they were together, but it was still something that transitioned from work to play, so to speak.  

Yes, I think that was my logic. There isn't really a lot in our academics that he can do independently. I've tried and tried and it's just more productive for us to be doing academics together, given where he functions. I had one intervention specialist in our home who really thought we should be pushing for that, but the rest never have. It wouldn't be at instructional level and it's just not really how he rolls given that every single thing is affected by the SLDs. Even say typing, which for most would be independent, is affected. 

So yes, that was sort of my logic, that if I put the variety of youtube things spread over days and assigned them, he would learn how to do them and be able to choose them for himself. Right now, if I put up the not school menu (which is a really great idea btw), I think he would just look at it and go fine but continue choosing from his restricted range. It's not like he's wandering around not knowing what to do. It's that I want him busy with more than his self restricting is limiting him to. And if I'm compelling him, it's not really "not school", kwim? I think for most kids you can say wow, you've been doing that a long time, let's choose something else from the list. With him, that might be harder to get to. He'll just get frustrated and huff off. The experience of transitioning through other things he learns to like, I thought, would help him get there.

He's had a lot of time this summer just doing whatever he wanted, which means a few restricted things for many hours. It happened that way because I messed up my hand and because dd was here. So I'm undoing that, if that makes sense. I already know what happens if I don't create some structure or step in, sigh. My splint is coming off, dd is gone, and we're needing to get back into some pro growth habits. He did grow in other areas, like going out to work twice a day, attending to whether the time means he needs to take his medications, etc., but beyond those parent driven things there wasn't a lot of diversity. I could structure his free time, but that doesn't seem very natural either. So it seems more natural for school suddenly to take a lot more time. It also works toward a goal of positive pairing with his office. If school can = pleasant things like science videos on youtube, then he has an easier way to come into his office to work. I can do short burst work (grammar, SLP pages) around the house with him or science kits, but anything else I prefer to be in the office. It just makes everything go better with less distractions, more environmental control, a more clear plan. (we're here, this is what we do when we're here)

Come to think of it, I'm also flexible on those locations for the youtube-y stuff. So it's leisure, but it can be in the office or out on the couch, doesn't bug me. 

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

a “choice time board”

Yeah I'm familiar with that, and as I think about it that's *not* what I was trying to do nor thinking he needs. He can busy himself. And actually even if he's doing youtube and gaming he usually cycles through a variety of topics. Happily he gets BORED with the gaming and will switch to science, etc. So maybe my exposure through school to diversity that might interest him would nurture that?

I think I actually wanted the compliance that comes from working a list of required work independently. It's just a hurdle, a developmental step, and I think I was chickening out. Bawk, bawk. Because you're right, if I wanted to work on leisure, I already know how and know what to say and how to prompt that. And I do go up to him and just say wow, you've been doing that a long time, go choose something else, and he'll huff and go do something else. It's not like he can't. I view school as a way to expose people to new ideas, occupations, and pursuits they didn't REALIZE would interest them so they can choose to do them more on their own. 

So I guess in my own philosophy assigning the things (via Google Classroom) is what I wanted. I wanted compliance work (sigh) and wanted the intentional broadening to new pursuits. I just wanted to get there easily. Like via cruise and room service. He actually asked to go on another cruise, hehe. They're kind of stressful, so I was surprised he brought it up. I asked him why, and he said it was for the ice cream cones. 

I think what also got me is that when I registered him youtube decided to put his account as a kid account and shove him to youtube kids, which meant none of the links I had put in as class assignments worked! So then I was left with tons of work to redo every link or wondering why I was doing this. I think Google Classroom is a great long term platform for him, because it allows him an objective, non Mom way to receive assignments, give responses, use tech, etc. One platform for the rest of his years. Otherwise I have lists, notebooks, destruction. I mean, I'm all for notebooks, LOVE notebooks and page protectors and all that. But I thought the Google Classroom would be tidier. Log in, there it is, done. He has destroyed physical and digital lists I've made in the past, sigh.

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

a choice to limit some preferred activities to a certain period of the day.  

Yeah, I think that's part of what will happen. As we get his "schooling" ramped back up, he'll just be told no xyz before 3. But if I'm not careful, that turns into fine I'll just stay up late doing my thing and sleep in, sigh. 

Another thing I keep thinking back to is those rotations/work cycles. I think I just want the HABIT OF WORK and I don't really care what the work is. And I need some things to be automatic, done with compliance, because I'm not always at the top of my game every moment. I need to be able to say go work a list and he's doing it. I need that compliance every day and I have to deal with my own realities. I can get sick, mess up my hand, whatever. He needs to be able to work a plan that I can call "school", something that involves complying, simply by sitting down and doing it for a bit. I need that option. And if it starts with youtube videos and fun stuff and grows to include Spelling City, etc., that seems fine to me.

15 hours ago, Lecka said:

“waiting”

Yup, we worked like GANGBUSTERS on that last year. We developed green and yellow bags of activities, taking them everywhere, saying ok which are you, what activity can you choose to busy yourself while I... He's gotten good at that. There are always more ways to *mature* that, sure. But that was a big, big win for us last year. Waiting is no longer an IEP goal for him, iirc. I could check, but I think we literally took it off. I had said we're going to win at something, and that's what we won at.

Oh, THAT'S my problem. I haven't made a new goal like that. Ok, lightbulb moment.

That's the real issue. My brain was getting there, that my goal for the year should be to work from a list, and my self was worried, saying it's going to be hard. But that's the POINT. Something is not a GOAL for the ENTIRE YEAR if it's not an issue, a need, something that will need work and innovation and attention and effort. Sigh. And we did. We focused the entire year, circling back over and over, on the waiting thing. Every session, every worker, every time we could integrate working on waiting skills we did.

So that at least explains why it's not a walk in the park. Yes, occasionally I'm an idiot, slow to catch on, slow on the draw. So I guess I just have to decide if that's really the goal and suck it up. I don't need to pussyfoot and half way walk around it. If it's the goal, it's the goal and we just do it. 

I guess I felt like if I DON'T get him working from lists by compulsion (I assign it, you do it), then I'm leaving him immature. He's at a transition point, 11 turning 12, and there are just these steps you expect him to take. His father can give him a list the night before (you're going to do these 3 things tomorrow, wake up and do them) and he can d that. That's some great EF and it's responsibility and compliance and life skills and all that. It might be really basic stuff, but he's going to get his brain in gear and know that plan and do it. It's maturing. And I guess I felt like I had a window here, a door to walk through where we could do that with our school stuff too.

Oh, another small light coming on. I *could* conceivably make my list of what to do with him and put "independent work" on the list multiple times. So it's not like it even has to be one long session. It could be, or it could be he goes and works independently on things from the list for 30 minutes and then returns to together work. So it's kind of merging that leisure menu and taking breaks with me working with him. But when I have a day when I'm not going to be on, he can just be told to go work his independent work and he's good. It can flex that way when there's a larger list that he's plowing through. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by PeterPan

[ieta_cassiopeia]

"Independent work", to me, suggests "work done without needing teaching" or, for someone with better independence skills in the thing being taught, "work done without needing direct/any supervision (depending on age and capability of the student)". Both are legitimately work, though depending on context, it's not always necessary to let the student know it's supposed to be work.

The first option @PeterPan suggests feels like something where the key constraints are what can't be done. In her example, the student would be successful if they occupy themselves for 20-30 minutes without distracting other people or breaking any house rules, all of which can likely be spelt out beforehand if needed. More constraints might be established as skill in the area advances (e.g. "involving something non-electronic" or "involving something in the garden"), but probably not many, because it's the sort of goal that doesn't require 400 restrictions to be practicable. Creative solutions that don't break the restrictions are fine. So the student knows that if they aren't doing anything forbidden, they are progressing towards their goal.

The second option feels like it's about where the key constraints are what is done. So a student writing down a recipe they've just learned to make would be successful if they produce a recipe, and anything that doesn't contribute to this in some way (e.g. writing, getting appropriate materials, doing self-regulation activities) is taking them away from their goal. There might be choice, but these will usually not be things that substantially changes the product (for example, the exercise might be done in print or cursive, or it might have illustrations or not, but whatever choice is made, the finished product isn't going to look much different to expectations).

I can see why the entanglement of meaning happens, and you are making a good point.

[PeterPan]

@CuriousMomof3 You made so many good points that I haven't yet sorted through them to know what my next question is.  I'm thinking a lot about your point about even a *teeny tiny* amount of assigned independent academic work being valuable. Those were helpful examples. And I think the point that independent breaks (vs. independent long span) are good. That's something that had been nagging me with my list, that I was turning it into one long exhausting 2 hour chunk, which means he won't want to do anything else. But if he goes to those things as independent breaks, masterful activity, that's good.

We got a cute kit today at Hobby Lobby for him to try the diamond painting. You use a stylus and apply little jewel beads. We got a kit to make a cactus. It's just small, but again it fits in that category of something he can do independently in small amounts. And he picked it out, meaning he's engaged and willing. It's just he's not going to *schedule* that for himself. He'll just revert to his restricted list of interests and do those for hours. So I do think it's good to help him get that variety.

I think that hits most of it. We usually have a really firm no tech,e tc. before 3pm kind of thing, but that went out the window with covid/spring/summer. Takes a lot of hot air to fill that hot balloon and launch it off the ground, hehe. He also has some routines with how he wakes up, and with his habits of sameness, it's not like I can just jostle that. Has to be handled carefully. School has the advantage in that sense, because they have complete control (assuming you get the dc there, lol). 

So thanks for sorting it out for me. I think you hit the things I was sensing, that there was more. And yes, it's important. We're winning and he's doing well. It's just we have to keep stretching, growing. I think I was in a lull and didn't explicitly have the sit down with myself for what my BIG GOALS are for the year. If you don't make the, you don't hit them. I've finally got really good SLP help hitting some goals. Like articulation, I was listening to their session yesterday and she's doing a good job keeping the vocalic Rs fresh. So when the rest of the team hits stuff, it makes my life better. That was a huge load off. She's been weaving pragmatics, inferences, etc. into reading comprehension and vocabulary work. It's really brilliant and I was very pleased. And I'm pleased that his Rs are holding. And he's pretty emotionally stable, all things considered. It just puts us in a good place to accomplish things. Then it's possible to try to accomplish TOO much. It's why I need to spend time thinking, refining it down. Otherwise it's too many ideas and we'll flop.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Creative solutions

That's a good point that we can ponder whether choice and creative solutions are acceptable with masterful play (independent leisure, worthwhile leisure, whatever) and independent academics. And of course choice always degrees stress and opposition, so I try to weave in choice as much as I can in some way. I hear his workers (teletherapy) doing the same thing, using choice quite a bit to help him get where they want him to be without becoming oppositional or stressed. There are a lot of creative or strategic ways to weave choice in while still getting him doing what we want. (color of writing instrument, which thing first, two equally acceptable assignments, etc.). 

I need to ponder what *small amounts* of independent academic work look like for my ds, hmm. That idea of 30-60 really has my mind spinning. The behavioral people had always wanted me to shoot for longer periods of time, but it was that open ended, high choice, masterful play, busying yourself kind of thing. Once you say I want you to do 30 seconds of independent math, whatever, that's a different skill, and it's ok to want that.

[PeterPan]

On 8/21/2020 at 10:55 AM, CuriousMomof3 said:

It sounds like your kid is like my youngest son.  If it's in writing it's "official".  So, if I tell him "do your math" or "no video games until after dinner" I will get whine whine whine.  But there's a list on google docs (that I wrote in front of the kid) that has all the things that need to be done before screentime, and it includes "math", "eat dinner", and "help with dinner dishes", then he'll work through it reasonably happily.  Because it's written down!  It's official!  

Yes

On 8/21/2020 at 10:55 AM, CuriousMomof3 said:

Yeah, my "school" needs a start and finish. 

And see I've never done that, because I don't want a really fine line. Sometimes it's appropriate for me to hit reading with him at bedtime. Like literally, required reading he has to do. I'm ok with goals for when to finish, but we're going to get the work done. If he screws around, it doesn't just go away.

[PeterPan]

29 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

  In my fantasy, I'm an unschooler, and one thing I do is that I watch what my kids choose during that "school" time that has no assigned work, and I only put things on the list that they aren't doing spontaneously.

LOL That's a good way of putting it.

25 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

When we have a day where the adults are overwhelmed (usually by something medical with DS10.5) and need the kids busy so the video games come out, we call that "early dismissal" or "delayed opening" or "snow day" even if it's September and sunny and 98 degrees outside.  

Yes, I think that's the thing to have flexible structures where he's getting things done but it can up/down parental involvement as needed.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

We took "baking" off the list when we found we had left over pie, cookies, cake, brownies and lemon bars, all still fresh and delicious. 

I clearly am failing, haha. That's some serious accomplishment!

[PeterPan]

Well when I was napping in the sun today, all this sorted out in my brain. Now I'm trying to find it again, haha... 

PROJECTS==> Genius Hour, Cooking, Sewing, Woodworking, etc.

BREAKS==> paint by number, youtube videos, puzzles, drawing, etc.

So breaks can flex and be either between sessions working with me (literal breaks) OR large chunks of work on a break day. (woo, genius, hahaha) It makes sense for breaks to have specified lists on rotation, because it gives it that officialness and plan. I already know that he will buck even highly preferred breaks when given choices (wii, ping pong, air hockey, basketball), simply because he's being told to do it. So to be told go work on your break list, that is much better. That will work.

The projects can be set up as a different "class" in google classroom, and he can just rotate through them. Or I could put the components (various recipes for instance) under topics. So then he's told go work on your project, and he can go pick one of the projects to work on. 

I don't know, that's how it gels for me. It just feels a little more organized. If I can win on a structure like this, that would be HUGE. Tons of choice in there, but it's helping him diversify without wearing me out. And it resolves the idea that the break/independent activities aren't really (typically) so much his whole day as breaks that sometimes fill in for a day. A long chunk of them would wear him out so much (just staying attentive and working through the list) that he wouldn't be able to work for me. So I think that was the right analysis to say those were independent *break* activities.

I need to set up some independent academic tasks as well, but I haven't gotten that far. I may be *very close* to that anyway. Like I might be able to give myself a simple structure, like ½ sheets of paper or something, and then I just wing it on the fly and make something up. I don't know, lol. 

Anyways, that's as far as I got. I watched a whole webinar on the Genius Hour idea today and fell into a rabbit hole researching that. I had been doing something sorta in that vein this past year with my "become an expert" themes. I didn't realize this was actually a THING, and the webinar https://geniushour.com/genius-hour-webinar/  showed actually how it's done with steps. That's why I was realizing we have these PROJECTS and things we do and that those larger chunk components should separate out from the "breaks". During projects, you *expect* to need your mentor available to ask for questions, where breaks are more independent. So different mindsets.