SAT Subject Test Score?

[mlktwins]

What score on an SAT Subject Test would you want to see to feel that an A+ in an outsourced class is validated - really for a college to feel it is validated?  I know the work that was put into the grade and know it was deserved, but who knows what colleges will want during the application process in 3 years.  Somewhere over 700?  Under 700 (in the 600s)?  My boys are scoring in the low to mid 700's on their practice tests.  That should suffice, right?  Trying to decide if I'm comfortable with them even taking the test next Sat at this point because of COVID 😞.  Want it to be worth it to them if they go.  This is their first SAT test (they have taken the PSAT).  Before Covid, we were shooting for 2-3 Subject Tests to validate a few grades.

  

[Farrar]

I don't believe in trying to validate all your grades, so I'll leave that piece.

The only schools left that actually require the subject tests from homeschoolers are pretty competitive. But it sounds like you just want the scores as a bonus. 

I'd say that anything above a 700 is absolutely going to add to a student's application at most schools. Anything above a 650 probably as well, but it depends on which test and which school. If you look at the percentiles, they're a little misleading because only students aiming for a very small number of schools (and homeschoolers) take them at this point.

[mlktwins]

27 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I don't believe in trying to validate all your grades, so I'll leave that piece.

The only schools left that actually require the subject tests from homeschoolers are pretty competitive. But it sounds like you just want the scores as a bonus. 

I'd say that anything above a 700 is absolutely going to add to a student's application at most schools. Anything above a 650 probably as well, but it depends on which test and which school. If you look at the percentiles, they're a little misleading because only students aiming for a very small number of schools (and homeschoolers) take them at this point.

Thanks for this @Farrar.  We live in No. VA and will be looking at VA schools.  One of our big projects for this year (rising 10th graders) is to research schools and requirements.  Just haven't been able to fit it in with taking care of elders and staying afloat the last 2 years.

I certainly don't want to validate all their grades.  Last I heard, some schools in VA were looking for 2-3 Subject Tests - so maybe the more competitive ones.  The plan was to get one under their belt early -- just in case it is needed.  The goal was to not get to senior year and find we didn't do something we should have.  At this point, with COVID and all the fallout from that over the next couple of years, who knows what will happen.  I'm not opposed to them starting with an Associates at NOVA at this point :-).  I know they wouldn't need a subject test for that.

Edited August 20, 2020 by mlktwins

[UmmIbrahim]

3 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Thanks for this @Farrar.  We live in No. VA and will be looking at VA schools.  One of our big projects for this year (rising 10th graders) is to research schools and requirements.  Just haven't been able to fit it in with taking care of elders and staying afloat the last 2 years.

I certainly don't want to validate all their grades.  Last I heard, some schools in VA were looking for 2-3 Subject Tests - so maybe the more competitive ones.  The plan was to get one under their belt early -- just in case it is needed.  The goal was to not get to senior year and find we didn't do something we should have.  At this point, with COVID and all the fallout from that over the next couple of years, who knows what will happen.  I'm not opposed to them starting with an Associates at NOVA at this point :-).  I know they wouldn't need a subject test for that.

My son took 3 SAT subject tests for admissions purposes: Biology E (August after 9th grade), , Chemistry (June after 11th grade), and Math Level 2 (October of 12th grade)

From our recent college admissions adventure in this area:

William and Mary says the following for homeschool applicants: "Some homeschool students who have not taken any—or very few—Advanced Placement or dual-enrollment college courses would likely benefit from providing test scores. This may include any SAT/ACT scores, SAT subject scores, Advanced Placement exam scores or a combination of the above." So, basically, if your kids have lots of AP tests and DE coursework (outside validation stuff), then you are likely fine without SAT subject test scores. If you don't have so much of AP/DE, probably a good idea to give them more test scores.

UVA - They consider SAT subject test scores as a part of the application if submitted. We were advised in-person that as a homeschooled applicant (particularly interested in a STEM field), my son should definitely submit them. Probably a case of talk to a different counselor, maybe get a different answer. This is our state school, so we made really sure to check all the boxes for him to have it as an option, even if it was just a "strongly recommended" box!

Georgetown - Strongly recommended. We learned from quite a few admissions presentations that when they say "strongly recommended" about SAT subject tests, they really mean "required unless you have financial need that makes the registration fee prohibitive." 

Washington and Lee - They consider SAT subject test scores as a pat of the application. Probably similar to UVA: "if you are a homeschooler, we want as much test stuff as you can give us."

George Washington University - Two SAT Subject Tests are required in science and mathematics for the Seven Year BA/MD program. For other programs, it's considered.

Out of state, we encountered a few schools that made these required for homeschoolers, but not for general applicants.

Generally speaking, it's really the more competitive schools that want these. Every school is quite different with what they do about homeschoolers, though, so always good to ask!

[EKS]

I vote for 700+.

Here is an article about how subject test scores should be interpreted.  And here's an article about how GPA and SAT scores correlate.

[Farrar]

Washington and Lee is the one that's infamous - five tests. It's bonkers. Emory is the other that asks very specifically for three, though anecdotally, I have heard that you can provide AP's instead. A number of schools suggest them, but nearly always in the same breath as AP's. In general, I think AP's are a better route. None of the "recommended" schools are going to thumb their noses at AP's. Of course it will always enhance an application to have good test scores. But kids almost never do more than two. Most kids are going to have AP's instead. If your kids are really looking at the tippy top schools, then yes, put these in the mix. But otherwise, I wouldn't bother doing more than a couple. If they already prepped, then obviously they should do them. I wouldn't pursue doing more after this unless they have very specific goals.

I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand, but I have spoken with a lot of admissions officers who are very strongly saying, no, we do not ask for additional tests from homeschoolers. The thing they want to see is strength of coursework. And they will take your word for it in the form of course descriptions. If your kids get a good regular SAT score, that will be more than enough. But even that is not required anymore at every school. Now, I have absolutely spoken to admissions people who go ooh, yeah, we really want to see testing from homeschoolers. But they're not even talking about subject tests - they're talking about a basic SAT/ACT at this point.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand, but I have spoken with a lot of admissions officers who are very strongly saying, no, we do not ask for additional tests from homeschoolers. The thing they want to see is strength of coursework. And they will take your word for it in the form of course descriptions.

This totally astounds me although it might be difficult to write a course description for a rigorous, high level class unless you had actually taught/facilitated such a class.

[8filltheheart]

33 minutes ago, EKS said:

This totally astounds me 

@Farrar's description has been our experience as well.  

[UmmIbrahim]

2 hours ago, Farrar said:

Washington and Lee is the one that's infamous - five tests. It's bonkers. Emory is the other that asks very specifically for three, though anecdotally, I have heard that you can provide AP's instead. 

I think it's hard for a lot of people to understand, but I have spoken with a lot of admissions officers who are very strongly saying, no, we do not ask for additional tests from homeschoolers. The thing they want to see is strength of coursework. 

We didn't actually apply to Washington and Lee, and I was just going off of a list of schools and what subject tests they recommend or consider. Five is crazy! It's funny, because W&L sent my son several emails about waiving the application fee near the deadline time. We were slightly tempted to just chuck another application if it was free, but I'm glad we didn't because we surely didn't have 5 tests! I bet they get lots of last-minute applicants with those fee waivers to bump up their numbers 😂

Regarding schools not wanting more tests from homeschoolers, I find that interesting. We got some definite feedback from at least two admissions presenters about homeschoolers needing more testing. Of course, the admissions session presenters are not usually "high up" in the admissions department and may be giving the wrong impression. The university that he ended up choosing actually told him directly that interviews are usually optional, but not for homeschoolers, and that the same was true with subject tests. Additionally, my son had an admissions interview where the interviewer had him list all of his testing experience (from APs, to SATs, to subject tests!) to make sure that he had taken tests in his life. He was bemused (this was a competitive university that I cannot imagine is getting many homeschool applicants who have never had an outside class or never taken the SAT or a test of any kind!).

It's heartening to hear that our experiences were likely not representative of general policies regarding testing and homeschoolers!

[EKS]

24 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

@Farrar's description has been our experience as well.  

I wish I had known this starting ten or so years ago.  Seriously, it would have been so freeing not to be constantly worried about outside "verification."  

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

I wish I had known this starting ten or so years ago.  Seriously, it would have been so freeing not to be constantly worried about outside "verification."  

I think it has changed a bit and is changing. And it definitely depends on the school. Some DO want to see more.  And it’s still one way to do it. But yeah, testing is no longer the only way in for homeschoolers. I know some success stories for homeschoolers getting into some competitive test optional schools applying test optional.

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, UmmIbrahim said:

 

We didn't actually apply to Washington and Lee, and I was just going off of a list of schools and what subject tests they recommend or consider. Five is crazy! It's funny, because W&L sent my son several emails about waiving the application fee near the deadline time. We were slightly tempted to just chuck another application if it was free, but I'm glad we didn't because we surely didn't have 5 tests! I bet they get lots of last-minute applicants with those fee waivers to bump up their numbers 😂

Regarding schools not wanting more tests from homeschoolers, I find that interesting. We got some definite feedback from at least two admissions presenters about homeschoolers needing more testing. Of course, the admissions session presenters are not usually "high up" in the admissions department and may be giving the wrong impression. The university that he ended up choosing actually told him directly that interviews are usually optional, but not for homeschoolers, and that the same was true with subject tests. Additionally, my son had an admissions interview where the interviewer had him list all of his testing experience (from APs, to SATs, to subject tests!) to make sure that he had taken tests in his life. He was bemused (this was a competitive university that I cannot imagine is getting many homeschool applicants who have never had an outside class or never taken the SAT or a test of any kind!).

It's heartening to hear that our experiences were likely not representative of general policies regarding testing and homeschoolers!

Definitely not representative.  My last 2 high school graduates, 2017 and 2020, had very little in terms of outside validation.  My 2017 grad had an SAT score, Latin and math subject test scores, and Russian awards.  My 2020 grad had an SAT score and that is it.  (both of them only took the SAT once....very little testing going on.  No APs. No DE grades.)

FWIW, my recommendation is to speak to the individual in admissions responsible for nontraditional applicants.  Most admissions officers do NOT deal with nontraditional applications and "think" they know answers when they really don't.   I have been info from general admissions that has conflicted with nontraditional admissions officer.   Additionally, sometimes it is worth it to apply even if your student doesn't check all of the boxes.  My dd applied to one school without realizing they required additional testing from homeschoolers.  I found out from another homeschooler who jumped through the hoops after dd had applied.  I contacted admissions and asked them to withdraw her application bc she wouldn't be doing the additional testing.  A few days later I received an email from them saying that they were exempting her from the requirements.  (She was accepted and invited to their top competitive scholarship weekend. 😉 )

[UmmIbrahim]

33 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Definitely not representative.  My last 2 high school graduates, 2017 and 2020, had very little in terms of outside validation.  My 2017 grad had an SAT score, Latin and math subject test scores, and Russian awards.  My 2020 grad had an SAT score and that is it.  (both of them only took the SAT once....very little testing going on.  No APs. No DE grades.)

FWIW, my recommendation is to speak to the individual in admissions responsible for nontraditional applicants.  Most admissions officers do NOT deal with nontraditional applications and "think" they know answers when they really don't.   I have been info from general admissions that has conflicted with nontraditional admissions officer.   Additionally, sometimes it is worth it to apply even if your student doesn't check all of the boxes.  My dd applied to one school without realizing they required additional testing from homeschoolers.  I found out from another homeschooler who jumped through the hoops after dd had applied.  I contacted admissions and asked them to withdraw her application bc she wouldn't be doing the additional testing.  A few days later I received an email from them saying that they were exempting her from the requirements.  (She was accepted and invited to their top competitive scholarship weekend. 😉 )

This is great to hear! I often felt like the whole college admissions process was forcing us into more traditional pathways than we wanted. I think I just didn't have the vision/confidence to really commit to a more nontraditional path like we had in the earlier years of homeschooling. My son was also interested in competitive schools, so I repressed my rebel impulses (I thought I had to) 😂

It sounds like I should have contacted the nontraditional admissions officer directly. It might have saved me some angst about having messed up this whole homeschool thing. I have two more kids to go, so I'm taking notes and learning more for them. I appreciate hearing about your experiences and how well your kids have done in the process without going insane on the testing roller coaster!

[kokotg]

20 hours ago, Farrar said:

Washington and Lee is the one that's infamous - five tests. It's bonkers. Emory is the other that asks very specifically for three, though anecdotally, I have heard that you can provide AP's instead.

Emory told us directly that you can't use AP scores in place of subject tests....though my son only had 2 and decided to give it a shot anyway; he was waitlisted and then offered a spot off the waitlist (at the Oxford campus).

[daijobu]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:34 AM, mlktwins said:

What score on an SAT Subject Test would you want to see to feel that an A+ in an outsourced class is validated - really for a college to feel it is validated?  I know the work that was put into the grade and know it was deserved, but who knows what colleges will want during the application process in 3 years.  Somewhere over 700?  Under 700 (in the 600s)?  My boys are scoring in the low to mid 700's on their practice tests.  That should suffice, right?  Trying to decide if I'm comfortable with them even taking the test next Sat at this point because of COVID 😞.  Want it to be worth it to them if they go.  This is their first SAT test (they have taken the PSAT).  Before Covid, we were shooting for 2-3 Subject Tests to validate a few grades.

  

 

I agree with @EKS below.   I think an A+ may be roughly equivalent to >= 780, only because I interpret A+ as a perfect or nearly perfect grade.  An A is above 700 or maybe above 750.  

But classes are different from tests, often radically different.  You can have a professor with exceeding high standards for writing quality who is grading students on the quality of their essays and the exams have no multiple choice or true/false.  Meanwhile aren't all the SAT subject tests mostly multiple choice with just a couple of free response, where even then you are only graded on your final answer?  The SAT subject test isn't really validating an A+ in the college course.  Trouble is, colleges otherwise have difficulty knowing how challenging your particular class is.    

[mlktwins]

Thank you so much for all the insight and links.  I 💗 this forum!!!

As of now, they are going to take it (next Saturday).  Putting some last minute study time into it this week and we'll see what they get.  I'd rather have one under their belt early on, when it seems like they are going to do well.  I don't think it can hurt to have the score.

But...we are definitely fitting in the AP and DE classes (possibly starting it the spring), but definitely their 11th and 12th grade years.

 

[mlktwins]

On 8/21/2020 at 8:45 AM, UmmIbrahim said:

This is great to hear! I often felt like the whole college admissions process was forcing us into more traditional pathways than we wanted. I think I just didn't have the vision/confidence to really commit to a more nontraditional path like we had in the earlier years of homeschooling. My son was also interested in competitive schools, so I repressed my rebel impulses (I thought I had to) 😂

It sounds like I should have contacted the nontraditional admissions officer directly. It might have saved me some angst about having messed up this whole homeschool thing. I have two more kids to go, so I'm taking notes and learning more for them. I appreciate hearing about your experiences and how well your kids have done in the process without going insane on the testing roller coaster!

The bolded has been me so far!  It is wonderful to hear about other experiences and taking some of the pressure off.  

I've been planning their school like they are in an AP or IB program at public school instead of us enjoying it more.  Starting to make that change here!!!