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Foundation in Sounds - Too wordy?


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Hi all,

We're underway and going slowly with Foundation in Sounds for my 7yo (ASD and maybe adhd plus the usual LD suspects). I'm finding during our sessions, I'm talking *so* much with the script and asking him so many repetitive questions trying to get him to focus, that I worry it's more distracting than helping. We are only able to get through one procedure before his attention span is toast. If he doesn't repeat what I said, he won't remember anything. I'm asking him whether sounds are vibrating or quiet and half the time I think he's guessing. I don't know, I just guess I need some encouragement this will improve and the steps are worthwhile. I'm so glad I went with this over LIPs as I'm not sure I could keep my wits about me with his level of distraction and still implement it correctly. 🥴

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That’s a good idea, I will contact them! Maybe I just need to give it more time for him to get used to what I’m asking. Maybe attention is something we really need to address, I just don’t really know what is outside of typical 7yo and or boy behavior. My daughters were attentive angels making not preparing me a bit haha. I worry it’s even more stress on his mind, to hear the sound I say, remember it, associate it with a sound picture and then answer my question. If I’m thinking that though, attention must be a good ways outside of normal range. 🤔

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1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I wouldn't hesitate to break it up in to shorter lessons within a elsson- and maybe do it several times a day, if you have somewhere you can leave it set out. (That would make my life much easier with Barton if I could leave it set up and out I know!) . 7 is really young- it is the same age as my dd, and it's just a lot especially when it's HARD for them to start hearing those sounds and paying attention and processing it all. My dd literally gets hot when she is working on something difficult.  I think it's taking so much brain power at first it does make their brains pour off energy and heat. 

 

I could maybe leave it set out, it seems kinda busy/overwhelming to me though with all those big cards across the table. I have a desk in my office closet I could use for it and bring him back here solo where it's more quiet to see if that helps. I wonder about just leaving them to the side for a bit to cut down on the visual stimuli. The first day, we could only get through the intro. We are essentially doing only one procedure a day. That has us taking a full week per lesson. I forget that 7 is young when he's coming up on second grade and not reading. I keep debating with just giving him time, but I"m not sure if that's just delaying dealing with the issue vs helping.

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Unfortunately, once autism is on the table, sure the explanation can be that he literally doesn't understand what you're saying. It sounds like you barely understand and he doesn't. Your best bet, since you're stuck with it, is to spend extra time and simplify the lessons. Drop down the language to be as minimal as you can. Point, gestures, yes/no, simplified words that mean exactly what they sound like and mean something to him.

For instance, I would have no trouble being technically precise with a dc and using terms like voiced/voiceless.

5 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

whether sounds are vibrating or quiet

however this is neither technically correct nor helpful language, and it's because the people who wrote FIS, to all appearances, had ZERO qualifiations. This comes up over and over, every time this program turns up. People have problems, and it's because these authors just did whatever they thought in their "experience." So fine, that's what you're working with.

If you went to a professional, they would explain it with something simple like *motor on*, *motor off*. Feel the motor in your throat. (he touches yours while you make a voiced consonant) the motor is on. Can you turn on your motor? Feel it, the motor is on. Now you make /p/ or another voiceless and he feels. Motor off. Now he makes it and feels his motor off.

Simple, elegant. Less words, more precision.

No, the pictures are a total distraction and should be avoided. I know they used them, and again it just seems like every time FIS comes up on the boards it's in the context of these rabbit trails and things they added.

You want a sound/written connection. You can count sounds with tiles. You can say the sound while tracing it on sandpaper letters.

So wrap your brain around it and reteach the lesson in the most streamlined way you can.

Yes, you're going to need to teach him in chunks. Attention with ADHD is both chemical (consider meds), language (he's not understanding, why stay), and behavioral (his sensory, joint attention, lack of regulation, etc. are all screaming leave leave). So you can consider meds. You can do sensory interventions before to put him in a better place. You can use short sessions. You can use high energy and motivators. At that stage with my ds I was doing repeated 5-10 minute sessions with high value motivators. We usually did something organizing before like midline activities, metronome, kinesthetic games to work on working memory, etc. I like your idea on environmental control. Make sure the space stays paired positively. 

Did we realize this dc had ASD when FIS was suggested to you? Barton itself is not appropriate with language delays. It can result in hyperlexia. 

Edited by PeterPan
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30 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Unfortunately, once autism is on the table, sure the explanation can be that he literally doesn't understand what you're saying. It sounds like you barely understand and he doesn't. Your best bet, since you're stuck with it, is to spend extra time and simplify the lessons. Drop down the language to be as minimal as you can. Point, gestures, yes/no, simplified words that mean exactly what they sound like and mean something to him.

For instance, I would have no trouble being technically precise with a dc and using terms like voiced/voiceless.

however this is neither technically correct nor helpful language, and it's because the people who wrote FIS, to all appearances, had ZERO qualifiations. This comes up over and over, every time this program turns up. People have problems, and it's because these authors just did whatever they thought in their "experience." So fine, that's what you're working with.

If you went to a professional, they would explain it with something simple like *motor on*, *motor off*. Feel the motor in your throat. (he touches yours while you make a voiced consonant) the motor is on. Can you turn on your motor? Feel it, the motor is on. Now you make /p/ or another voiceless and he feels. Motor off. Now he makes it and feels his motor off.

Simple, elegant. Less words, more precision.

No, the pictures are a total distraction and should be avoided. I know they used them, and again it just seems like every time FIS comes up on the boards it's in the context of these rabbit trails and things they added.

You want a sound/written connection. You can count sounds with tiles. You can say the sound while tracing it on sandpaper letters.

So wrap your brain around it and reteach the lesson in the most streamlined way you can.

Yes, you're going to need to teach him in chunks. Attention with ADHD is both chemical (consider meds), language (he's not understanding, why stay), and behavioral (his sensory, joint attention, lack of regulation, etc. are all screaming leave leave). So you can consider meds. You can do sensory interventions before to put him in a better place. You can use short sessions. You can use high energy and motivators. At that stage with my ds I was doing repeated 5-10 minute sessions with high value motivators. We usually did something organizing before like midline activities, metronome, kinesthetic games to work on working memory, etc. I like your idea on environmental control. Make sure the space stays paired positively. 

Did we realize this dc had ASD when FIS was suggested to you? Barton itself is not appropriate with language delays. It can result in hyperlexia. 

 

Yea, it was in my long thread from the summer when I was debating what to do. I've read many times about their lack of qualifications but it kept getting recommended  to me for its ease of delivery on the parent anyway ya know? Also, when Susan Barton says she's never using LIPS again, well, I just said to heck with it and bought FIS so I didn't have to try to wrap my head around the former haha.

You're speaking to my exact feeling, my gut, that the meat of this is good, but because of his extra stuff going on, its just extra for no reason in his case. I've gotta put away all the fluff. I've absolutely used voiced/voiceless/motor on/motor off in my normal teaching so I will go back to that happily. I do like the sounds stoplight a lot, so I really think just using that then moving to tiles is all that's really needed. He's having to process what the picture is, remember the word map, then remember it starts with /m/ and that it's a lip sound..just whoa. It seems like, I could have just went straight to Barton 1 and just done is reaaaaally slowly and gotten to the same point. But maybe I'm wrong. 

I don't know how to avoid making him hyperlexic? What would I use instead of Barton?

Edited by Joyful Journeys
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31 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Well, I will say everything I've learned in this last year shows you cannot start remediating soon enough. However, that being said, you also do have to give it time. Sounds contradictory, but it's going to take both factors- remediating and focusing on the processing skills and letting brain maturity happen at whatever pace that is going to be. So it all becomes like an art in learning to teach to the kid. You take the tools, but then you have to craft them to your specific situation and cards you've been dealt. They may be having it really, really hard for a bit, and then you get a breakthrough and things click and get easy, and then you hit another plateau and it gets hard again. I think the saying some kids learn in stair steps has been very appropriate in this dd's case for sure. 

I wouldn't worry so much about the time it's taking you- it's just great that you are being consistent. That is what matters. A lesson is going to take as long as it takes. We are still the same way now that she's in Barton. Some lessons we can do in a day. Some lessons take a week. Some lessons take weeks. 

If you have questions on anything, I can pull my set out and get a refresher and see if I have any suggestions. It's all a blur in my brain because I watched those videos and then immediately started watching the Barton videos while I worked with her through FiS. We've been doing Baron for the majority of the year now so that has infiltrated all my brain space and FiS has sort of fallen out.

I posted on another thread last week I think that IEW's Arts of Language podcast just had a two part dyslexia series with the Eides (Dyslexic Advantage). They also had a podcast a few years ago with Susan Barton, if you are a podcast fan and are interested. I've found it very helpful to listen to Andrew Pudewa's experience with his son growing up as a boy with severe dyslexia.  He's mentioned it a ton of times over the years in his talks, so hearing both the struggle and the successful outcome have been encouraging for me. 

 

I do need to immerse myself in the thought behind these programs again. It's been years since DD1 was in the thick of Barton. Thank you! It's hard to see the other side of this, I appreciate the encouragement. 

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5 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

He's having to process what the picture is, remember the word map, then remember it starts with /m/ and that it's a lip sound..just whoa.

He's having to remember all that because they're using language to accomplish what LIPS does with visuals. If you had the LIPS faces, you could literally spell with them.

Barton was a computer expert (software, programming, I forget) who got trained to tutor. No SLP would give up LIPS for FIS, mercy. Her experience is straight dyslexia, not these more complicated kids. That's why she says upfront her program is not addressing the needs of kids wit further lagiage issues.

5 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

He's having to process

It sounds like you're sorting it ot. No big leaps. Youmay need to get each step and then combine them. More visual, less language.

5 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I don't know how to avoid making him hyperlexic? What would I use instead of Barton?

I don't know that Iregret Barton. Ds reads beautifully and itworked. It's just I had to do so much more to get comprehension. Barton was only a piece. Hyperlexia is reading beyond what you comprehend. You can decode and have NO CLUE what you read.

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I don't know. I've had whole threads on the language work I've done with my ds. The only all in one option I've seen mentioned was a program for the deaf I think I had linked you. I've seen it mentioned by SLPs for this.

It's just very important to do al the language work you can. If he has language issues, those will hold back his reading comprehension even when you get the decoding in place. Spelfabet has some great stuff with high use of visuals. 

But no, I don't know of one program. You'll end up hodgepodging. I really like the SPARC materials. We still keep working on laguage because we have these ceilings, sigh

Edited by PeterPan
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5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you done reflex integration? My ds became a LOT easier to work with once we got his retained reflexes integrated.

 

I've got videos cued up. It's been hard to test him myself as he kind of laughs his way through it all lol. I figure I can assume he has some and just do the exercises anyway. We all need a little more movement these days.

It's hard for me because I don't realize the extent of his language issues until times like this, and it's yet to come up on testing. I don't know that I want to go through more academic testing this year. We get along fine for the most part until it hits me in the face that he may very well be clueless to anything that isn't a concrete concept in his head. Do I need to get mouth pictures instead? Is that piece, that understanding of what your mouth is doing when you make sounds so critical for reading? It's hard for me to wrap my head around that. The end goal is to be able to break up sounds correct? He can read CVC and some digraphs just fine already. So it seems like the issue is more so just the juggling of it all memory wise? I'm feeling like I wasted a lot of money right now honestly. Maybe I should pause and go to the adhd clinic here for a workup and address that first.  We're gonna take the rest of the week off while I figure out next steps. 

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1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I don't realize the extent of his language issues until times like this, and it's yet to come up on testing

Then why go to the ADHD clinic?? You're looking for an SLP who specializes in literacy. This person *hopefully* will be able to run more detailed language and literacy testing. You want her to have experience with ASD obviously. 

For my ds, the SPELT (structured photographic expressive language test) showed the depth of his language issues. At (I forget, 9/10?) he failed the PRESCHOOL version of the SPELT. This was after multiple SLPs (school, a supposed private apraxia expert who speaks at conventions but had no clue, etc.) said he was "fine". They would just assess informally or by doing an MLU (mean length utterance). They didn't realze the extent of his ability to script. So if they run something like the CELF, it provides models he can copy to give them answers. He had massive amounts of language, whole language, stored in his head. He just wasn't comprehending at the word and bits of word levels. And think about what you're saying. The phonological processing is bits of words. So my ds spelled the words in Barton but was not connecting those strings of data to MEANING. They were jibberish, not connected in his brain to real life or morning or usage. Parlor tricks.

So the SPELT is helpful and also the TNL=test of narrative language. There are other ways to assess narrative (dynamic, a newer test the TILLs that integrates multiple literacy components, etc.), but it just needs to be done. 

If you find an SLP doing things like that, she'll probably own more tools as well and have the skill level to get you some answers. If the person DOESN'T own those tools and they eval, then I guess see what they're offering to run. Usually it's something like the CELF, which is a screener tool, broad, hitting lots of areas. It provides models, uses multiple choice, and is widely acknowledged to have sensitivity issues, missing language disabilities in higher IQ kids. My ds looked fine and within range on the CELF because of the models and multiple choice, but completely failed on tests that removed those structures and required him to provide original language. 

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I'm feeling like I wasted a lot of money right now

You got the tool you thought was most workable for you. If you had bought LIPS, you'd probably be here saying something similar, that you're frustrated that he's having problems, that you don't know how to make it work, that his behavior is hard to work with. And the answers would be the same. Wrap your brain around the program, make it fit him, provide behavioral supports and environmental control, and address root issues affecting behavior and language development.

I think you can make the program work. Can you spend some extra time with it and wrap your brain around it? What I did, when I was teaching my ds, was to look at the next lesson or concept and work through it completely mentally myself. I also just prayed HARD, lol. It was a very hard thing, and I'm not sure jumping or buying $$ things helps you right now. There's an out of print program I liked that was cheap (a workbook) and you can't even get it right now. I keep hoping it will magically appear. Take VERY SMALL STEPS. For my ds, behaviors increase if the task is too hard, complex, or long. Honestly I keep every step on the EASY side for him. It reduces anxiety and behaviors and just makes him confident he can do it.

So with the FIS, wrap your brain around the lesson concept and then break it into short sessions, with each step building to the next, each easily within reach. If you, with your creativity, think of something that would allow you to be less verbal during the session or maybe add something that would help him, do it! You can probably find the LIPS faces yourself just buying googling if you want them. Google image. ind them, print b&w and cut out, boom done, free. We can tell you what they mean and how to use them. Not hard. 

I tried to learn the lesson well enough and preplan it well enough that I could teach it completely without anything in front of me. I think get it to that point and you'll be more confident to adapt to him on the fly, to chop things down, rearrange, add, whatever he needs. 

His behavior would still be challenging with another program. His language issues would still be there with another program. It's just a very hard thing. I've thought about what I'd have to be paid for it to be worth it for me to do for another dc what I did for my ds, lol. I did everything you're doing AND I was adding in the hands-on speech therapy methodology (PROMPT) to be able to help him even FEEL the articulation and connect it to the face pictures and orthography. It was incredibly hard (to me, never having done it before, lol). I look back on it now, several years removed, a little more blithely. But yeah, it's hard, I hear you. Overlearn the lesson yourself, be confident, break it into small steps, provide behavioral/sensory supports. You'll get there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y26rcrwcp4g57mt/Notes on LIPS.pdf?dl=0  Here, try this link, see if it works. It's what I did. Maybe you'll get some inspiration. Blend things together and do whatever you think it will take to help him connect. It sounds like he's making progress. I'll tell you another secret. When I was trying to find how to help my ds and talking with professionals, they would dish on other professionals, telling about clients they had gotten who were supposedly so hard to treat but that they helped. Then I would think about those professionals and realize NO ONE knows everything, EVERYONE is learning when new situations come in their door. My ds IS HARD to teach. He has a complex presentation. And I don't need to deprecate myself thinking that because it's hard for me I'm a failure. Reality is my ds would be hard for MOST professionals to teach, and even living near a major city and astonishing resources I have yet to find the person who can do what I've done and what I know remains to be done. I think they're out there, but I haven't connected with them. 

So he could fail even with a professional. If it takes your or me longer, but we're not paying to drive, not giving up so much time in sessions, we'll eventually get there. I figured I only have to be ⅓ or ¼ as effective as that professional and that it's still possible a professional would work with him and not make any progress. Once I acknowledged this, I realized I was becoming the professional I needed.

So that's what I'm saying. Become the professional you need. Take deep breaths, learn the material, work in short sessions, adapt it to him. Toss anything that doesn't seem right for him or adapt or modify or bring in. I used Barton, even though I had to modify it heavily, because it at least gave me a framework. You chose FIS for the framework, not because it was perfect. So make it work. Use their framework and teach till it comes together. You can get there.

 

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Ok, so I can't find samples of Attention Good Listeners. Basically it was using minimal difference pairs to help kids build discrimination, working memory, rapid naming, language. It was brilliant. If you find something else like this, sure go for it. But it's a strategy you can use with your ds now. The workpages had arrays of 9 or 12, I forget, but you can start with two.  pen/pin, Or think phrases, like hot cat/hit cat. Whatever you're working on discriminating for your FIS, you can work on in this way. Whiteboard and a little creativity.

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39 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Then why go to the ADHD clinic?? You're looking for an SLP who specializes in literacy. This person *hopefully* will be able to run more detailed language and literacy testing. You want her to have experience with ASD obviously. 

 

 

 

Because I think he may have it and what progress can be made with anything if he cannot focus? You've told me before that meds can be a game changer. I've seen it with my daughter too. If even with minimal language he is looking at everything in the room but me, thinking about what he's going to do next and so on, maybe that needs to be dealt with to set the stage for him to receive instruction. By the same token, relaxing instruction and just doing reflex work for 30 days or what have may be enough to help too for now. I've read so much about all that it takes to make a child table ready when they have LDs and things, so that's where my mind is. Is he even ready and how can I help him to be ready. 

I have absolutely no clue where to begin to find an SLP that can do those things. I feel like the only reason to throw hundreds of dollars at more testing would be if I found a professional that was actually going to do the therapy, and that we could afford it which is not likely. With the pandemic too, weekly appointments stress me out and telehealth, I just can't see working, again, because we would still have to get him to pay attention to the screen long enough. We did virtual sessions in the spring and it was an exercise in futility. 

It sounds like I just have to grin and bear it and teach better. Nothing will ever be open and go even with SN materials I see now. I'll figure him out. I'm determined.

 

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If you think he is guessing on sounds being one or the other, cut down on how many sounds you are working on and just focus on that.  
 

My older son took an extremely long time on Barton Level 1 and he was also in speech therapy that took 3-4 times as long as expected.
 

I would keep working on it, but let it take how long it takes.  If you wonder about guessing, slow down and repeat more to see if he is consistent.  
 

My older son was in speech therapy working on speech sounds and could not hear the difference between many, many consonant pairs, and could not tell apart l and r blends, and could not hear “fast consonants” at the ends of words..... when he was 7.  He is a very solid reader now.  He does not read aloud beautifully (with tons of expression) like my daughter, but he reads accurately and at a decent speed.  
 

If you are looking for speech therapy and he doesn’t have articulation issues, you can ask about “phonological awareness.”  If he has articulation issues, then he can go for articulation.  What you are doing should help his articulation too if it’s an issue. 
 

My older son made faster progress after he got through the phonological awareness stage, and blending.  Those were the hardest and slowest, then he made much better progress.  Fluency was also hard for him but not “as” hard.  
 

If he needs to repeat — have him repeat.  
 

If you can make a visual template of some kind, maybe that can help with the memory issue.

Like — could you make one piece of paper represent “quiet” and one represent “vibrating”, and then have him point?  And have them visible to show the question?  This can cut down a ton on working memory load.  It’s a thing people do — and if it helps you can do it all the time.  
 

And on that note — could you make pictures for him to sort into baskets?  That can add in more activity to help focus.  And he can work on the same sets over and over and mix together new and review.  This is the kind of thing people do too, for lots of need for review and need to build in activity and make it less of a “sit, listen, and respond” kind of thing.  
 

I have also seen cute things where they put a picture (representing an answer — here you could have one for quiet and one for vibrating) and kids throw a ball or beanbag at the correct answer, or shoot a nerf dart at the correct answer.

If he has got ADHD and a need for repetition, often people add in novelty and movement to improve attention, and then — well, there’s still a need for practice and repetition.  So people do creative things like this.  There are lists around.  This is also like — when people write things on the ground with  chalk and kids jump on them.  
 

If it’s helpful it’s good.  If it’s just more distracting and difficult to focus, I think then try for good consistency and good structure, and try to do short, focused times several times a day.  If it’s very consistent and structured he will know what to do.

You can see if he focuses better with bringing in cute/fun things or with just trying to spend 5 minutes that are very focused and not even trying for more than 5 minutes at a time.  
 

 

Edited by Lecka
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Another common thing is add things to a game, on each turn you say an answer.  Then he can hear you give an answer and you can talk through a model of how you got the answer every time (or some of the times).  It can be fun.  
 

If he loves balls you can do it with bouncing a ball back and forth.  Or with any card game or easy board game.

Anyway — I think overall, try adding things like this and just take the time it takes.

 

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1 hour ago, Lecka said:

If you think he is guessing on sounds being one or the other, cut down on how many sounds you are working on and just focus on that.  
 

My older son took an extremely long time on Barton Level 1 and he was also in speech therapy that took 3-4 times as long as expected.
 

I would keep working on it, but let it take how long it takes.  If you wonder about guessing, slow down and repeat more to see if he is consistent.  
 

My older son was in speech therapy working on speech sounds and could not hear the difference between many, many consonant pairs, and could not tell apart l and r blends, and could not hear “fast consonants” at the ends of words..... when he was 7.  He is a very solid reader now.  He does not read aloud beautifully (with tons of expression) like my daughter, but he reads accurately and at a decent speed.  
 

If you are looking for speech therapy and he doesn’t have articulation issues, you can ask about “phonological awareness.”  If he has articulation issues, then he can go for articulation.  What you are doing should help his articulation too if it’s an issue. 
 

My older son made faster progress after he got through the phonological awareness stage, and blending.  Those were the hardest and slowest, then he made much better progress.  Fluency was also hard for him but not “as” hard.  
 

If he needs to repeat — have him repeat.  
 

If you can make a visual template of some kind, maybe that can help with the memory issue.

Like — could you make one piece of paper represent “quiet” and one represent “vibrating”, and then have him point?  And have them visible to show the question?  This can cut down a ton on working memory load.  It’s a thing people do — and if it helps you can do it all the time.  
 

And on that note — could you make pictures for him to sort into baskets?  That can add in more activity to help focus.  And he can work on the same sets over and over and mix together new and review.  This is the kind of thing people do too, for lots of need for review and need to build in activity and make it less of a “sit, listen, and respond” kind of thing.  
 

I have also seen cute things where they put a picture (representing an answer — here you could have one for quiet and one for vibrating) and kids throw a ball or beanbag at the correct answer, or shoot a nerf dart at the correct answer.

If he has got ADHD and a need for repetition, often people add in novelty and movement to improve attention, and then — well, there’s still a need for practice and repetition.  So people do creative things like this.  There are lists around.  This is also like — when people write things on the ground with  chalk and kids jump on them.  
 

If it’s helpful it’s good.  If it’s just more distracting and difficult to focus, I think then try for good consistency and good structure, and try to do short, focused times several times a day.  If it’s very consistent and structured he will know what to do.

You can see if he focuses better with bringing in cute/fun things or with just trying to spend 5 minutes that are very focused and not even trying for more than 5 minutes at a time.  
 

 

 

Thanks for your input! This is just our first two sessions actually teaching sounds. We only have done /m/ and /n/ on separate days. I think it was just the language that was confusing, but I see now that same language is in Barton too so I see why they chose that. I'm looking at the first lesson in Barton 1, and I think I'm missing what I'm truly attacking. If I wittle down FIS to make it less wordy, which all it is is matching sound pictures to sounds, then segmenting with tiles, how is it different from going very slowly in Barton 1? Lesson 1 of Barton 1 asks him to break apart two sounds with tiles, then increases in length. Could we not start there and stay there til mastery?

The only speech he's had for the last year has been for articulation. I don't know what I'm looking for. If I remove the sound pictures from FIS, and don't replace them with something else, I have a hard time recognizing the difference between this and Barton 1. Barton seems to have, in its materials, more ideas for shifting the lesson, noting that "fast sounds" are hard to distinguish, so they can be avoided for a while and then slowly brought in. This type of advice seems much more helpful to me as a parent tutor doing the program. It goes over having him look at my mouth and so on. I've got to do some reading on what having sound/mouth pictures brings to the table, to understand the logic of what seems like an extra step for him to remember. I think it's so that I'm 100% certain he knows each sound is different. He can blend CVC, so I'm fairly confident he can do this.  

For visuals, FIS has these sound charts. They seem overwhelming with a big title he can't read and a small picture in the corner of a lip or mouth. I think I could make something that's easier like an on/off switch to signify vibrating (motor on) and quiet (motor off). I do agree, we'll have to rethink the lessons entirely to get more senses involved more often so he can move around. 

Edited by Joyful Journeys
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2 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Because I think he may have it and what progress can be made with anything if he cannot focus?

Look for autism specific materials, clinics, and professionals when you know it's autism. The behavior and attention issues are super common in autism, so they'll know how to tease it apart. If you get someone who specializes in ADHD and not ASD, their answers will be under powered.

2 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

could afford it which is not likely.

Are you connecting with your county board of developmental disabilities to let them connect you with resources, funding, options? A dc with significant affect on language and ASD is going to qualify, yes, and they have a way in our state to get emergency funds in addition to the regular funds. If you haven't connected with your county level resources, that's where I would try. In our state, if you have a documented diagnosis, it's pretty straightforward for them to do the intake and get you started. Resources vary by county, but it can be really surprising. In the county adjacent to us, they literally cover EVERYTHING that your other options don't cover. In our county, you get $600 annually (respite, services, things not covered). So thre's probably at least *some* help there.

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

If I wittle down FIS to make it less wordy, which all it is is matching sound pictures to sounds, then segmenting with tiles, how is it different from going very slowly in Barton 1? Lesson 1 of Barton 1 asks him to break apart two sounds with tiles, then increases in length. Could we not start there and stay there til mastery?

Ok, so I did integrate LIPS into Barton 1 and 2, yes. You're NOT crazy thinking you see a connection. I haven't used FIS, only LIPS. However there should be a *progression* where you do the skill in FIS and then *extend* it to the Barton lesson. So if you *introduce* sounds with FIS, go through all the FIS steps, gain mastery of the FIS steps, and then *extend* the same sounds to Barton, that's fine. I outlined on that dropbox link how I did that with LIPS/Barton. I did it through levels 1 and 2, and I did it because my ds was not going to naturally do that on his own. With autism, learning compartmentalizes. We don't want to leave anything to inference.

Hearing sounds in words and segmenting words into the tiles is an extremely important step. If the poster is the problem, what if you put away the poster? What if you copied the image and printed it smaller, so he was only seeing one important thing at a time instead of the whole poster? 

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I think it's so that I'm 100% certain he knows each sound is different.

Yes. It's bringing in multi-sensory ways for him to FEEL the sound to written connection.

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I've got to do some reading on what having sound/mouth pictures brings to the table, to understand the logic of what seems like an extra step for him to remember.

Yes, I think that's up to you whether it's *helping* or *overwhelming* him.  This stuff IS going to be rocket science. It IS hard. Hard for him and for you. It's ok if it's hard at first. I wouldn't assume a component should be dropped until you've tried it a while. It may be easier for him in a few days, with repetition. 

-less content/steps at a time

-less visual overload

So not necessarily skipping steps, just making them smaller and more manageable. And I agree, as you see where it's going you'll see the utility and how to adapt it to him. I made up silly names for the lips faces. We sorted sounds with them using letter magnets and the faces. 

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Look for autism specific materials, clinics, and professionals when you know it's autism. The behavior and attention issues are super common in autism, so they'll know how to tease it apart. If you get someone who specializes in ADHD and not ASD, their answers will be under powered.

Are you connecting with your county board of developmental disabilities to let them connect you with resources, funding, options? A dc with significant affect on language and ASD is going to qualify, yes, and they have a way in our state to get emergency funds in addition to the regular funds. If you haven't connected with your county level resources, that's where I would try. In our state, if you have a documented diagnosis, it's pretty straightforward for them to do the intake and get you started. Resources vary by county, but it can be really surprising. In the county adjacent to us, they literally cover EVERYTHING that your other options don't cover. In our county, you get $600 annually (respite, services, things not covered). So thre's probably at least *some* help there.

Ok, so I did integrate LIPS into Barton 1 and 2, yes. You're NOT crazy thinking you see a connection. I haven't used FIS, only LIPS. However there should be a *progression* where you do the skill in FIS and then *extend* it to the Barton lesson. So if you *introduce* sounds with FIS, go through all the FIS steps, gain mastery of the FIS steps, and then *extend* the same sounds to Barton, that's fine. I outlined on that dropbox link how I did that with LIPS/Barton. I did it through levels 1 and 2, and I did it because my ds was not going to naturally do that on his own. With autism, learning compartmentalizes. We don't want to leave anything to inference.

Hearing sounds in words and segmenting words into the tiles is an extremely important step. If the poster is the problem, what if you put away the poster? What if you copied the image and printed it smaller, so he was only seeing one important thing at a time instead of the whole poster? 

Yes. It's bringing in multi-sensory ways for him to FEEL the sound to written connection.

Yes, I think that's up to you whether it's *helping* or *overwhelming* him.  This stuff IS going to be rocket science. It IS hard. Hard for him and for you. It's ok if it's hard at first. I wouldn't assume a component should be dropped until you've tried it a while. It may be easier for him in a few days, with repetition. 

-less content/steps at a time

-less visual overload

So not necessarily skipping steps, just making them smaller and more manageable. And I agree, as you see where it's going you'll see the utility and how to adapt it to him. I made up silly names for the lips faces. We sorted sounds with them using letter magnets and the faces. 

 

Unless you qualify for medicaid, there's no help here. NC isn't winning any awards with assisting folks. Had we not decided to homeschool due to COVID, I could have thrown our hat in for the lottery for a disability grant to cover homeschool/therapy costs. I've no doubt funding for that will be even smaller this year though. I hadn't had a chance to look at the link, I will! That makes sense to me, integrating them that way. He told me today he likes the pictures, so I'll keep going as written, but cleaning it up visually and see where we are.

 

 

Thank you all SO much! I was feeling like I made a huge mistake and feeling so lost. It's very hard to trust the process. I'll regroup for the weekend and come back stronger on Monday. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just wanted to update that after almost 3 weeks, he has made SO much progress! Today, for the first time, we were able to get through all procedures (review game, discover sounds, play which word, sequence with cards, sequence with tiles) in one sitting! This usually took about 3 sessions. He enjoys the cards a lot, having so much fun with the review games. When I told him he would have around 20 cards in his hand eventually, his eyes bugged out with excitement. He feels really confident and proud of himself. 

Things I've done per everyone's great advice is to move back to my office to a desk facing the wall with just us. I eliminated using the provided charts/cards (except the sounds stoplight, love that) as they are just extra clutter on the table for him to mess with. I've only had to really drive home lip vs tongue and quiet vs vibrating for a couple of harder sounds. He remembers simply by backing up and watching my mouth. I'm guessing we will finish at the end of the month and be ready for Barton 1. I've also found that just being really silly, like purposefully saying the same sounds over and over to get him laughing really has changed his whole mood about it. I'll continue the "which word" game with silly words too to just make it all less monotonous. We are on our way, and hopefully Barton 1 will be a breeze. I'/m so excited to see how he does when we get back to real words!

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6 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Just wanted to update that after almost 3 weeks, he has made SO much progress!

Yay!!! It sounds like you're learning a lot about how to work with him, and I'm glad the things you're trying are working!! 

I always tell myself, I don't have to figure out everyone else's kid, just my own, lol.

Well good, I'm happy for you. And yes, it will be so crazy fun to get into Barton 1. It's a great stage. It's rocket science hard, but it's a great stage. Just my other hindsight is to focus on *meaning*. 

I'm trying to think how you would do that. Like just seriously, do I actually have any hindsight? LOL I know Cartwright has you do what I call multi sorts, where you sort the same pile of words multiple ways. (See her book Word Callers) Then Rasinski, in his Poetry for Building Reading (which I'm using right now with ds and LOVE for many reasons) has the kids doing multi sorts also. Carwrights multi sorts were by say different ways to categorize. Rasinski is more overt and has them categorize words from the models both by phonology and then by meaning. For my ds the multi sorts were a big deal. Small thing, big deal. 

So if you can figure out a way to do multi sorts with his Barton, where his sorts his list of target words different ways (for phonology and meaning) it might be worth the effort. It turns on the brain to the idea that they both have to process for decoding AND for meaning, that the same word has both. I just don't remember the Barton 1 words enough to remember whether they would be *conducive* to that. But turning on that meaning, where every word is visualized, every word is associated with a picture, every word has meaning, that's super important.

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38 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I definitely appreciate that advice going forward. I will look into ways to be sure he’s understanding the meaning as we go along. I’m not sure it can work in Level 1, as it’s all auditory still? Level 2 ramps up fast though with written phrases in the second lesson, so definitely we can work on it there. 

I don't remember anything about Barton1, sorry. My brain is just a total blur on it. We were doing LIPS integrated with Barton 1 along with his speech therapy (hands on), so it was distracting. Like you say, Barton 2 has words, phrases, and sentences for lesson 2 on. At least that's what I have in my quizlet. So that must be about the time it became logical to drill for fluency. At that point, where we were going through words and building reading fluency, that's where we could have been working on comprehension with the multi sorts.

So looking at my Barton 2 lesson 2 list, I think yes, you could work on comprehension. It would be a pain in the butt, but you could and should. Some quick things I see? 

-pictures on one side, word to read on the other. I have no clue why I was not catching on that comprehension was going to be such a big deal for my ds. That would be a pain but something easy to do with Quizlet. You just throw the image on one side, word on the other, boom. Google image will get you there. 

-sort by things you do vs. whats (verbs vs nouns)

-sort by specific things (proper nouns) vs. generic things (common nouns)

-sort nouns into categories (people, transportation, foods, whatever). Can be simple, like foods, not foods.

-sort by spelling

and so on. 

For my ds, the language issues ran deep, so it isn't like those things would have resolved his spelling problems. However, if I were working with my ds now, I would do them, sure. It's another way to practice fluency (because you'll be getting in more reading of the words), and it ensures that he's connecting meaning to the words instead of reading in a disconnected way solely focused on decoding. 

Really, I had no clue how off the comprehension was until I tried to have him illustrate "A frog sat on a log" from the little booklet I made him with his Barton words. He could read it just fine, and given his age and IQ it was completely unreasonable that he would have NO CLUE what the sentence meant. Well that and his vocabulary was testing crazy high. But in his case the assumption that vocabulary = language acquisition did not work. 

https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Building-Reading-Skills-Professor/dp/1425806759  Here's a way to see what that multi sort could look like. See if you can see page 19 of the inside of this book. In Cartwright's book she sets it up like a grid, where it can be even more complicated. I think just the act of attaching meaning to what they're reading is important. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/2/2020 at 10:26 PM, PeterPan said:

I don't remember anything about Barton1, sorry. My brain is just a total blur on it. We were doing LIPS integrated with Barton 1 along with his speech therapy (hands on), so it was distracting. Like you say, Barton 2 has words, phrases, and sentences for lesson 2 on. At least that's what I have in my quizlet. So that must be about the time it became logical to drill for fluency. At that point, where we were going through words and building reading fluency, that's where we could have been working on comprehension with the multi sorts.

So looking at my Barton 2 lesson 2 list, I think yes, you could work on comprehension. It would be a pain in the butt, but you could and should. Some quick things I see? 

-pictures on one side, word to read on the other. I have no clue why I was not catching on that comprehension was going to be such a big deal for my ds. That would be a pain but something easy to do with Quizlet. You just throw the image on one side, word on the other, boom. Google image will get you there. 

-sort by things you do vs. whats (verbs vs nouns)

-sort by specific things (proper nouns) vs. generic things (common nouns)

-sort nouns into categories (people, transportation, foods, whatever). Can be simple, like foods, not foods.

-sort by spelling

and so on. 

For my ds, the language issues ran deep, so it isn't like those things would have resolved his spelling problems. However, if I were working with my ds now, I would do them, sure. It's another way to practice fluency (because you'll be getting in more reading of the words), and it ensures that he's connecting meaning to the words instead of reading in a disconnected way solely focused on decoding. 

Really, I had no clue how off the comprehension was until I tried to have him illustrate "A frog sat on a log" from the little booklet I made him with his Barton words. He could read it just fine, and given his age and IQ it was completely unreasonable that he would have NO CLUE what the sentence meant. Well that and his vocabulary was testing crazy high. But in his case the assumption that vocabulary = language acquisition did not work. 

https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Building-Reading-Skills-Professor/dp/1425806759  Here's a way to see what that multi sort could look like. See if you can see page 19 of the inside of this book. In Cartwright's book she sets it up like a grid, where it can be even more complicated. I think just the act of attaching meaning to what they're reading is important. 

I'm coming back to this now that we have finished. Thank you!

 

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On 9/4/2020 at 10:41 AM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'm so happy to read this update! 

You all were so helpful!

 

We finished today! I can't believe it. He just loved moved along the chart, and by the end he can totally spell words by ear with the cards. I'm blown away. He was even able to tell me why the word "ten" sounded like it was vibrating but the sound /t/ was quiet. "Oh because the /e/ and the /n/ are vibrating sounds too!" Gosh ya'll, it just warmed my heart. I really liked the order in which the sounds were introduced as it helped me see what I thought was an obvious difference in sounds, was really quite subtle. It helped me as a teacher to know what I needed to make sure he could hear in my speech. The last procedure of changing sounds shook him a little bit. We just slowed down again, I adjusted my speech and used more hand gestures until I knew for sure he understood what I was asking. Once that was clear, I backed off with gestures finally having him do it the last couple purely with the words in the script. I think we'll play some of the review games the rest of the week and start Barton 1 on Monday. 

I'm telling you this combined with the genius that is Ronit Bird's dot patterns book and I actually think he will make so much progress this year all around. 

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25 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I'm telling you this combined with the genius that is Ronit Bird's dot patterns book and I actually think he will make so much progress this year all around. 

That's EXCITING!!!!! Are you going to party for finishing FIS? :biggrin:

Edited by PeterPan
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13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's EXCITING!!!!! Are you going to party for finishing FIS? :biggrin:

He had picked out a new toy (some alien launcher watch thing haha) a couple of weeks ago when we were in the doldrums a bit and I figured some motivation would be good. I had it waiting for him to open after lessons were done for the day. It's been a fun day for sure!

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