Will micro exposures through masks build herd immunity?

[PeterPan]

Is there any evidence for this? Is it actually something that is discussed? Is it the reason no one addresses the issue of EFFECTIVENESS of various masks, because in reality they WANT these micro exposures?

I'm just trying to find out, because someone threw this idea at me today and I hadn't heard it before. Anyone know?

[Farrar]

I have read some vague speculation about this, especially since we know that viral load is so big in determining how the virus presents. But I'm almost positive that this is not a good way to build herd immunity overall. And it's definitely not the intended purpose of having people mask. There is a lot of discussion of the efficacy of types of masks. But most people are so stuck on just wearing one in the first place that it's been hard to move on to what's best. The what's best discussion seems to invariably lead back to the whole "they're useless!" and also "a violation of my rights!" stuff that I think people are afraid to bring it up much. But there have been a bunch of tests. And there has been a good bit of discussion on my social media feeds about why people should not be wearing the ones with the filters on the side or the neck gaiters.

[SKL]

Someone mentioned this to me yesterday.  It must be going around on the internet or something.  I hope it's true.

[catz]

Well I’ve read a number of articles and doctor speculation and anecdotal evidence about this saying regular mask use could cut viral loads even if you do end up infected.  Leading to a potentially asymptomatic or minor case of Covid.   Not necessarily as a road to herd immunity and we still don’t know how/if herd immunity could be achieved with this virus.  So I think that part is speculation and not something I’ve seen through reputable sources.   I also think mask proponents have been forward saying masking doesn’t replace social distancing.  

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

I have wondered that here in the big thread. Dh got a such a small viral load, I’m not sure his immunity will be all that built up, but multiple small viral load exposures would probably be better than a heavy viral load once. 

It has been proven that masks reduce viral loads. See my links in  the mask poll thread. I don’t think it will lead to herd immunity but it could help reduce hospitalizations.   

This might be of interest.

 

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

And there has been a good bit of discussion on my social media feeds about why people should not be wearing the ones with the filters on the side or the neck gaiters.

I've seen only one article about gaiters being a problem, and it sounds like only certain types. Do you have more details? 

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Is there any evidence for this? Is it actually something that is discussed? Is it the reason no one addresses the issue of EFFECTIVENESS of various masks, because in reality they WANT these micro exposures?

I'm just trying to find out, because someone threw this idea at me today and I hadn't heard it before. Anyone know?

I’ve wondered about this as well but don’t have the answers.  I think it depends whether mild cases produce long lasting immunity or not.  It’s seeming more and more like many do but we don’t know for sure.

i think there is a term for intentionally doing this.

I don’t think it’s a strategy the scientific community support currently because of not enough evidence though.  But it is being discussed as something that may be happening accidentally in some level.

[EmseB]

43 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I've seen only one article about gaiters being a problem, and it sounds like only certain types. Do you have more details? 

One way valves on n95 masks allow exhalations to be released, which is more comfortable for the wearer and what a lot of immunocompromised people would wear in the beforetimes, but now the purpose for wearing masks is to keep exhalations somewhat contained, so wearing a mask with a one-way valve defeats that purpose. They are not allowed in the med clinic here.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

One way valves on n95 masks allow exhalations to be released, which is more comfortable for the wearer and what a lot of immunocompromised people would wear in the beforetimes, but now the purpose for wearing masks is to keep exhalations somewhat contained, so wearing a mask with a one-way valve defeats that purpose. They are not allowed in the med clinic here.

I understand about the vented masks. 

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Yeah the article I saw that specifically referenced the ones with the side filters (vents?) and gaiters, the tests only used a single type of gaiter and a single type of vent mask, vs 12 other types of ear loop/tie masks (ie single layer/double layer/fabric type, etc.)   And if I recall, it was referred to as a neck fleece, which to me, implies a single layer of sweatshirt type fabric (stretchy and smooth on the one side, but soft fleece on the other.)

The gaiters I made for DH to wear to work have options to be made of single layer or double layer, of any variety of stretchy fabrics.  Much like they eleventy billion homemade masks with strings or ties or whatever else the masses are using, the fabric and layers are going to make a different.  In addition, gaiters can be made with filter pockets too, so again, like any other type of homemade mask, construction is going to play a huge factor.

Comparing differenct constructions of one type of mask, against one construction type of one other type of mask, isn't really a great comparison.  

I would think they could make some reasonable comparisons, but I really didn't know what they meant by fleece. 

Locally one of the schools passed out gaiters to students, but now they are saying to double them up. 

[Syllieann]

It seems quite plausible that it could build here immunity, but there's no current evidence that I'm aware of.  I don't believe there is a concerted effort to avoid addressing the effectiveness of masks at all.  It is just really hard to compare Apple's to oranges to bananas, etc with all the fabric choices, patterns, and fit-to-face.  From what I am seeing in my area, people need to work on having them fitted with a wire around the nose, actually having them up over the nose in the first place, and taking in gaps at the sides long before they address whether a pleated or duck bill style is better or a cotton/flannel vs a cotton/zip vs double layer of 600 tpi cotton.

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, Plum said:

Yes. My son wears a mask with valves that Velcros on the back of his neck and has ear loops for work. I liked it because he doesn’t have to touch it to adjust at all through his work day. I cut polypropylene fabric into tiny circles to fit inside the ports to filter hoping that he could continue wearing it but knowing it’s been banned in many places. Well today he was told he can’t wear it anymore because customers might get the wrong idea. So I had to make him a mask today. 

Could he wear a surgical or cloth mask on top of it? I have seen people do that. 

[wathe]

11 minutes ago, Plum said:

Yes. My son wears a mask with valves that Velcros on the back of his neck and has ear loops for work. I liked it because he doesn’t have to touch it to adjust at all through his work day. I cut polypropylene fabric into tiny circles to fit inside the ports to filter hoping that he could continue wearing it but knowing it’s been banned in many places. Well today he was told he can’t wear it anymore because customers might get the wrong idea. So I had to make him a mask today. 

Would a piece of tape over the vent make it acceptable?

 

[wathe]

15 minutes ago, Plum said:

Hmm maybe. The problem with the surgical masks is they do seem to fall down when talking. 

We’ll see if the one I made him will work. It’s 3 layers with polypropylene in the middle. I’m a little worried about breathability. His shifts aren’t that long so hopefully it will work and if so I’ll make more. 
 

I’ll ask him when he gets home to see if he can tape over it. 

The cheapie disposable surgical ear-loop masks do fall down (or ride up into your eyes) when talking, I agree.  I use a little piece of tape to tape it to the bridge of my nose (only about 1cm^2 of tape touching my face) to make it stay put.  Works great - I'm in the same mask for up to 10 hours, and the tape makes it stay put.   (The really good level 3 surgical masks with ties used to stay put all by themselves, but we ran out of those at my hospital months ago, so now we all wear crummy earloop "medical" ear-loop masks that float all over your face without a little piece of tape to anchor them)

[G5052]

Yes, I really hope so! There is indeed some evidence that way:

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/one-more-reason-wear-mask-you-ll-get-less-sick-covid-19

[maize]

14 hours ago, wathe said:

The cheapie disposable surgical ear-loop masks do fall down (or ride up into your eyes) when talking, I agree.  I use a little piece of tape to tape it to the bridge of my nose (only about 1cm^2 of tape touching my face) to make it stay put.  Works great - I'm in the same mask for up to 10 hours, and the tape makes it stay put.   (The really good level 3 surgical masks with ties used to stay put all by themselves, but we ran out of those at my hospital months ago, so now we all wear crummy earloop "medical" ear-loop masks that float all over your face without a little piece of tape to anchor them)

A piece of fashion tape (double-sided, designed to hold clothes in place) also works really well not only to keep the mask in place but to form a tighter seal around the nose.

[Pen]

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Is there any evidence for this?

 

With regard to SARS2, I think it is too early to have knowledge about herd immunity.

With regard to the immune system more generally there is plenty of knowledge that the immune system usually copes with smaller amounts of viral load better than with a massive load.

In recent years it has become known that the innate branch (first line of defense that can stop pathogens even before entry into cells, beginning with things like skin barrier, mucus and cilia to wash it out of nose, chemicals in the body and specialized cells that can inactivate, kill, attack or otherwise clear invader viruses before they even get to the stage of taking over our cells and replicating) of the immune system has a form of “memory” itself and becomes trained to recognize something it has encountered before, even without the antibody and B and T-cell acquired immunity parts of the immune system becoming active. (The word “trained” gets used for the innate immune system and “memory” for the acquired immune system ... )   

So there is plenty to be suggestive that micro exposure might help train an immune response. Without specific SARS2 long term evidence. 

 

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Is it actually something that is discussed? Is it the reason no one addresses

I don’t think “no one addresses” is a true statement 

 

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the issue of EFFECTIVENESS of various masks, because in reality they WANT these micro exposures?

 

Premise that no one discusses effectiveness seemed faulty.  

If we are mainly trying to reduce getting illness at all or especially to reduce severe illness and death, masks are likely to help.  Along with distance, etc etc

Numerous studies and experiments have been getting done trying to figure out effectiveness of various materials and designs. 

 

Who is “they”?    

Or is “they” the WHO? 

 

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I'm just trying to find out, because someone threw this idea at me today and I hadn't heard it before. Anyone know?

 

I don’t think experiments have been done though of course real life is necessarily a sort of experiment.  What communities do, what individuals do, what one or another cruise ship or school or choir has decided to do—all irl “experiments” in a sense. 

Perhaps the masked mouse cage experiments could be redone, exposing the previously masked and no illness or mild illness mice to repeated masked exposures to find out if they seem to become increasingly immune, or if additional exposures cause more, perhaps even worse illnesses than the first bouts. 

If anyone knows of experiments that have been done, or sees any in future, I would be interested in links etc too! 

It may be much more complicated than just microdose exposures.  All the building blocks for excellent immunity would probably need to be present. And it may be that one illness depletes those such that timing of a second exposure might come when immunity can’t function due to depletion.

(for that matter, iirc, there have been some studies to the effect that vaccines don’t work (or don’t work well) if people are depleted in some basic building blocks such as perhaps zinc.) 

[Lecka]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/14/902244060/how-should-i-cover-my-face-a-deeper-look-into-neck-gaiters-and-face-shields
 

I’m copying an article I read about neck gaiters.  It talks about the study and what kind of gaiter was used in the study.