Seeing my mom drama

[Farrar]

My mom and I have an uneven relationship. She is mostly wonderful, but can turn petty and passive aggressive at times. She's widowed and alone, though not totally isolated. She usually has a very busy social life, but that has slowed down since the pandemic. She's in good health overall and usually very active so she's not like a shut in.

Anyhoo. She has been taking very good Covid precautions since the start. So have we. None of us have done anything more risky than grocery stores with masks in quite awhile.

So beginning a couple of months ago, I was like, you should come visit us. She was like, you should visit me. But... nothing happened. We were doing summer school, dancer was dancing on Zoom. I said it makes more sense for her to come here, but she was weird about it. So we were going to go there... and then state travel restrictions came into play and we just... hesitated. We do not have restrictions to see her, but she does to come here - thus, we would to come back home - if we got caught anyway. We talked about going to the state that is between us instead. But she has specific requirements, like that she be able to bring her dog, for example. I looked, but didn't find a great place for us to go, honestly. Especially not that was in budget for us. Plus, the kids do not want to. And anything that I was finding was going to be late September anyway. BalletBoy is in the professional training program (via Zoom for now). It's classes... but it's also like a job. He can't blow it off. Dh is booked solid with work through the election and can't take time off. My business has been really busy and I teach a class starting in September too. Not to mention that other kid has CC class. Both kids have other online classes. 

So I said, here's my proposal. Get tested, isolate (which she's basically doing anyway). Then come up here. We'll do cool stuff (there are good things to do that we can fit into our lives!) and we'll host you for a week. Then I'll find a place for all of us to get away for Thanksgiving together. It'll be further out. She can bring the dog. I'll probably have more luck finding somewhere in budget and we'll all have time off (except dh, but he's a trooper and will work from a vacation house).

She got really angry. She's like, why have you not made this happen. Why won't you come here. And I was like, because we're four people vs. one. Four tests vs. one. People where I live mask. People where you live don't. Your community's Covid numbers are worse than ours. But if you want, we will do that. But you have less space than us. The kids have things that aren't conducive to being at your house. We'll come and stay for a few days - like a long weekend or maybe four days. At that point, she started going off on how we went away without her. Well, true. We looked for a place, found a dirt cheap teeny cabin for just two nights (all that was available) so we could go away and swim and be elsewhere for just two days, spur of the moment. Dh had to work while we were there. It was a nice little getaway, but it wouldn't have been feasible or practical to bring her. I almost hid that we did it, but then I was like, no, we'll see her soon somehow. But then the travel restrictions got placed so we all hesitated.

I decided to just let her berate me over it. She's alone, she's increasingly feeling freaked out. I was like, I'm just going to let her do this. EXCEPT, I had her on speaker phone in the kitchen as I was cooking dinner. And one of my teens decided he had to come in and defend me with a lot of strong language. He stormed in screaming at her. I got him out of there. But in the chaos, of course, she half heard everything - though I have no idea what she thinks she heard because she basically hung up on me at that point. Kid has been spoken to. Obviously not okay, but also, he's 15. He is a child, with some depression and anger issues, who is learning and growing. She is an adult. 

She sent me a lot of woe is me passive aggressive texts after that. On text, I was finally like, look, we have offered two ways to get together. We would love to do either of these. And I said, I love you and am not abandoning you, please do not send passive aggressive texts to try to get me to argue with them to prove those things. That's not healthy for either of us. She said I'm shaming her and that neither of my options are acceptable and she's going to go away on her own without us since none of us want her. And was like, this is all about money. I didn't respond to that, but it is, kind of. We don't want to put down $2000+ on an experience that none of us really want in the first place. Aka, going away for a week somewhere not too far away and getting a place to her specifications that will also take a dog. Dh has to work, kids have to school, none of us want to spend that much, especially not when I had to pay ballet and overpriced out of state community college tuition this week. If she comes here, we can do nice things and still make life happen for us. So you can't frame it that we're being petty with money. There is an option that is free/very low cost. She just doesn't like that option. I feel like she wants us to prove that we love her by spending that money. I don't think that's very fair. But I didn't want to lay it out like that, so that never got addressed. I just stopped responding to the "no one cares about me" texts, which is what I said I'd do. I consider them passive aggressive. I try not to engage when she does that.

No one is speaking to anyone right now.

So, if you made it that far...

I'm trying to decide how to reapproach. Like, what do I say to reestablish talks. We would like to see her. But... not like this. Sigh.

[Tanaqui]

No advice, but you have my sympathy here.

[Forget-Me-Not]

(((Hugs))). You’re doing your best. 

[Shoeless]

I would give her a few days to calm down and propose a plan that is not what she originally proposed and also not what you originally suggested, so it appears "neutral" and in the spirit of compromise.

I don't know how far you live from your mom or who is the one that "moved away", so maybe this won't have relevance. But...I'm the one that "moved away" from my family, so the expectation is that I will do all the travel back to them, because it's "easier" if I do it. I get it; yes, it's easier for 2 people to travel vs all of them. In a petty fight with my sister about travel, she said "It's just easier if you travel", and I yelled back "Yes, it's always easier if someone else does all the work".  When she says things like this, it feels like she's saying the stuff she has going on in her life is more important than the stuff I have going on in my life, and I should be happy to do the work. 

If your mom travels to you, then she's got all the work of travel plus the expense, for an experience that she doesn't seem to want.  If you travel to her, you have all the work plus expense, for an experience that none of you want. She thinks her idea is perfectly nice, you think your idea is perfectly nice. Your expense and effort to travel to her may be greater than hers, but that doesn't make her expense and effort zero. Plus, if she doesn't bring the dog, she'll have to pay for boarding or a pet sitter, which isn't cheap and adds another layer of stress if she gets stuck in your state due to illness or changes in travel restrictions. 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by MissLemon

[Pen]

 

Maybe one call to tell her you love her and you don’t want to have no communication. 

 

Then maybe in a few says another call to say you miss her and really want to see her, but need her to do the trip to you . Due to work needs and problems if you were to not be able to return home.

 And to help it not be about money,  pay for her trip including her dog to see you.

Try to make it as easy for her as possible like having dog supplies at your house ready so she doesn’t need to pack them, maybe figure out and pay for any motel on the way that she needs if she is driving. 

Perhaps ask what about your house makes her not want to be there and see if it can be solved. 

 

? ? ? 

[Katy]

I would possibly give her a few days to calm down, then facetime.  Apologize for making her feel that you didn't love her (the fact that you have no ability to control her emotions is beside the point). Try to make it as genuine an apology as possible, you really didn't want her to feel unloved or unwanted or anything else.  Then when she's softened to that, gently explain that until Thanksgiving it isn't possible for you to rent a place to get away with her, but she is welcome to come to you.  There are obligations that cannot be changed, and that's reality.  She's welcome to come to you, or she's welcome to choose to be together at Thanksgiving, or perhaps YOU ONLY could come up for a weekend, but that's it until Thanksgiving.  If she needs details feel free to explain everything you did here, but chances are she knows this already.  She was just really hurt by being excluded.

[prairiewindmomma]

We are dealing with a similar dynamic. Uneven relationship where it’s expected that the 6 of us spend $3k (flights and rental vehicle or driving + hotel) visiting them when they could spend $500 and fly round trip. Even when we do travel, it doesn’t feel like a vacation because the relationship isn’t strong. We use our vacation time and spend our money (also paying college tuition here) to get digged at in a passive aggressive way. It’s only gotten worse this year. 
 

We decided not to travel. We would have none of the escapes we normally have by being able to go places and do things to shake up the dynamic.

I don’t think Ds needs to apologize. He set a boundary with her, even if he didn’t do it in an ideal way. Let his relationship with her be between them to work out.

I also wouldn’t immediately jump into trying to smooth things over or into ignoring the incident. She was berating you and the passive aggressive texts let you know she thinks maybe she had a part in that. In about a week open up about Thanksgiving again and see where it goes. 
 

 

[BakersDozen]

As one whose mom insisted that I pack 12 dc from AZ to NJ for at least a month, disregarding the fact that I was hosting an enormous co-op in my home, teaching 3 of the high school classes, and had just had a baby, and who got very angry when I suggested that she fly her one person here for a visit, I feel your pain, OP. I don't try to appease tantrum throwers after about the age of 2 and never engage with passive aggressive. I just don't have time for that or space in my brain.

May none of us ever behave in this way with our own dc...

[Farrar]

To be clear about the cost of travel - she lives less than 5 hours away. So, I’m happy to pay, but it’s basically just a tank of gas whether we go or she does. She brings the dog.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Farrar

[Farrar]

13 minutes ago, BakersDozen said:

May none of us ever behave in this way with our own dc...

I say this ALL THE TIME.

[PeterPan]

I'm not really clear, but are you sure a visit addresses her real need? It sounds like her life sucks and that's not yourfault. You could help her learn to do something about it/ It doesn't sound like yur teens want to see her in her current mental state, and if it's rather in violation of your state restrictions, I'd probably defer for now and address her real needs.

On both my parents (divorced) I've had to address mental health. The one in *better* health took the restrictions harder, ironically. Both were on the edge of depression. Well actually one fell down that hole. But both needed assistance to learn coping skills. I started sending puzzles weekly. Paint by number, sticker painting, anything. I started calling each daily.

Will this parent Zoom? Does she have tech she can use? I'm investing in Claris Companion for one of my parents. It meets his functional level and will expand his world. https://www.clariscompanion.com/

If the parent is unstable beyond that, they can use telehealth and get counseling or meds. I wouldn't hassle your family with someone who won't treat their mental health issues, not now.

[Shoeless]

34 minutes ago, Farrar said:

To be clear about the cost of travel - she lives less than 5 hours away. So, I’m happy to pay, but it’s basically just a tank of gas whether we go or she does. She brings the dog.

 

So the $2000 would be if you follow your mom's plan? And if she came to you, it would just be the cost of gas? 

Is the issue about money or about emotional labor? 

[Farrar]

The wait it out, let her re-establish contact, back off if she gets too passive aggressive... or even just aggressive - that approach is basically what I typically do. So... yeah. I just felt like maybe there was some better way. But maybe not. So, that suggested strategy by several people is basically my default. I guess that's good.

In her angry moments, she has accused me of doing this though, which is maybe why I was wishing for a different strategy. She says that I "punish" her by cutting her off and that I'm controlling and use contact like a carrot to manipulate her. A few years ago we had a massive fight that spiraled way out of control where she screamed at me on the phone for quite awhile that I was cold, cold hearted, had always been cold and cruel toward everyone. It was... quite a wake up call. After that, I honestly stopped letting her in as much. It was a bit of a shock because we were very close when I was growing up. I got sort of worried that these might be signs of dementia, honestly. But everyone else was like, no she's just like that. I'm still not sure if that's true. She has been more like that in some ways in my view. I don't know.

Mushroom will possibly apologize. I'm not clear what she heard. She definitely thought me telling ds to "stop it, right now!" was directed at her and was confused and angry when I clarified that was not towards her, so I don't even know how to pick apart what she thinks. If she doesn't realize that the chaos she heard was ds screaming obscenities at her as he barged into the kitchen, I honestly don't feel like it's worth it to tell her. She and Mushroom have a slightly strained relationship. She doesn't understand him at all. He's a difficult teen sometimes. I'm happy to hold his feet to the fire if he's genuinely rude (and that was beyond rude)... but also, she sometimes takes offense at the dumbest things. Like, him being grouchy is not a personal affront to you. It's just his 15 yo personality and you making it about you that he was grouchy does not help your relationship with him, his particular deal, or change anything at all.

I get that her traveling is definitely an inconvenience for her. It's work, even if the trip isn't that far. It's definitely budget friendly. She much prefers to host. Hosting is one of her love languages. So I need to remember that. This is very hard for her with my brother who very much doesn't want to be hosted. When my kids were little, we always went to see her and we all always appreciated the hosting element, honestly. Like, if she wants to cook for us and plan things, then, okay. Now that the kids are teens, they're just less keen on all of it. Sigh. If we were going to get away with her, she would 100% love to plan all the cooking and participate in little planned activities and so forth. 

I am the one that moved away, I guess? But she does not live in the same place that I grew up - in an adjacent town. We don't have other family there. There's not much extended family to be had on her side anyway. My brother and his family live 6 hours in the other direction from her. My step-sister lives nearby and she sees her once or twice a week. She sees her in laws once a year and my step-brother whenever he visits his sister.

 I don't feel like there are big mental health issues. I mean, there is in the sense that none of this is healthy. But also, I think a lot of this is aging and pandemic induced. It's not all for sure, but enough.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Farrar

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

So the $2000 would be if you follow your mom's plan? And if she came to you, it would just be the cost of gas? 

Is the issue about money or about emotional labor? 

Yep. Minimum $2000 would be to rent a house for a week with her standards. Actually, probably a good bit more. For her to visit us, it's the cost of a tank of gas.

It's tied together for her. She sees the "let's go on a trip together" as emotional labor on her behalf. I can't not see the price tags. We can swing it. But also, we're looking down college costs and professional training ballet costs and home repairs. I would rather not do it, especially not if my kids are going to whine about it and dh is going to be grouchy about it.

[Shoeless]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yep. Minimum $2000 would be to rent a house for a week with her standards. Actually, probably a good bit more. For her to visit us, it's the cost of a tank of gas.

It's tied together for her. She sees the "let's go on a trip together" as emotional labor on her behalf. I can't not see the price tags. We can swing it. But also, we're looking down college costs and professional training ballet costs and home repairs. I would rather not do it, especially not if my kids are going to whine about it and dh is going to be grouchy about it.

 

Gotcha.  

Yeah, I wouldn't do that trip, either. "Spend $2k on a vacation no one wants!" No thanks!

It sounds like she uses a lot of emotional manipulation to get what she wants, and then deflects that back on to you. 😕 You don't seem cold; you were logical and offered alternative activities. 

Could the new compromise be that just you travel to her place for a long weekend?  Leave DH and the kids home to do what they do, and just you and your mom hang out?  Or has the entered power struggle territory, where anything less than 100% her way is prolonging a fight? 

I"m sorry. 😞 We have variations of this fight with my dad and MIL periodically. I hate it.

[Farrar]

34 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not really clear, but are you sure a visit addresses her real need? It sounds like her life sucks and that's not yourfault. You could help her learn to do something about it/ It doesn't sound like yur teens want to see her in her current mental state, and if it's rather in violation of your state restrictions, I'd probably defer for now and address her real needs.

On both my parents (divorced) I've had to address mental health. The one in *better* health took the restrictions harder, ironically. Both were on the edge of depression. Well actually one fell down that hole. But both needed assistance to learn coping skills. I started sending puzzles weekly. Paint by number, sticker painting, anything. I started calling each daily.

Will this parent Zoom? Does she have tech she can use? I'm investing in Claris Companion for one of my parents. It meets his functional level and will expand his world. https://www.clariscompanion.com/

If the parent is unstable beyond that, they can use telehealth and get counseling or meds. I wouldn't hassle your family with someone who won't treat their mental health issues, not now.

So, she has a pretty active life. She has a garden club, a book club, a church committee, she volunteers in two places using her grant writing skills. She has a budding volunteer project that she's been trying to get off the ground which is actually super cool and involves storytelling and some social justice work. She does some local political activism. She has a small side business where she helps elderly people (usually older than her) downsize and move into assisted living. She's involved and known in her neighborhood. She started an aging in place organization for her neighborhood that is very active where older folks all support each other. She watches lots of artsy movies. She reads a ton of books. She has very literary tastes. She goes hiking (nothing steep because she has old knees) and kayaking with friends. In non-pandemic times, she goes out dancing to jazz clubs and babysits her newest step-grandchild. We have Zoomed her many times - she is the one who trained all her older friends on how to use Zoom. So she's tech savvy by the standards of her generation.

I don't know what the solution is... but that's why I said she's not a shut in. She's going a little bonkers in pandemic... but she usually has a pretty full life. And while the pandemic has closed things off... not everything. Like, her book clubs still meet. Her death group still meets. All on Zoom. She saw friends in her amazing backyard the other day, I know because we were discussing the sermon that she was telling me about. She also went kayaking with a friend last week (or maybe the week before?). My step-sister comes over once a week and she watches the grandbaby toddle around the yard. And there was a neighborhood back of a pickup truck concert that she socially distance attended in her neighborhood (this is a thing in her neighborhood in the pandemic times - bluegrass band on the back of a pickup truck drives around and plays for tips). So... my point is... her pandemic is not awesome. But also, it's not the worst pandemic. Like, I know she's feeling isolated, but... she's NOT that isolated.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Farrar

[Starr]

Going away together doesn't sound like it will be fun for anyone. If your crew isn't happy and vacationy your mom won't be happy. I would focus on Thanksgiving and give her the option again to come visit. We are all wearing covid grumpy pants but we have to carry on reasonably. 

[KathyBC]

Could you go visit alone? A quick 2-3 day getaway before September? Your family dynamic has changed since the kids were younger. Your dh is busy at work, your teens, as is typical, have greater time commitments. She will almost certainly miss the grandkids, and have to hold out for another time, but a girls' weekend, in the midst of a pandemic, might be better than nothing. You would be communicating your concern for her well-being and seeing her in person might dispel any worries you're carrying. You'd almost certainly have some peace of mind afterwards?

[Farrar]

At this point, I guess my fear is that nothing is good enough. It's honestly part of why I haven't gone yet. Sigh. She and I were supposed to have a girls weekend in NYC... in May. Obviously that did not happen. I'm fine to go down there, but I feel like then it will be her being bitter about things. Dh says he'd rather go with me. She is very diffused around him. She respects him WAY more than me.

[HS Mom in NC]

My take is if someone hangs up mid call while I was keeping communication lines open, then I respect the fact that they don't want to talk.  That's a strategy for handling manipulators, take them at their words and deeds.  She hung up when she could've maintained communication, OK,  I respect that that she's done talking.  I'd wait for her to decide she want to talk and calls me back.  If she asks why I didn't call first I'd tell her she seemed upset and clearly didn't want to talk anymore. 

If she's going to accuse you of not showing love by spending money, I'd point out that love isn't about spending money, it's about spending time, and I happily offered a couple of solutions for spending time together while respecting my family's limited time and finances.  I'd assure her that if she doesn't want to take any of those options, I'm fine with it, we'll talk later in the year about trying to schedule something else. I don't negotiate with toddlers, terrorists, or tantruming adults.

If she's upset about the 15 year old I'd tell her I was upset by it too and addressed it with him.

I have several difficult family dynamics with a range of issues from personality to mental health issues.  I stick to what I'm willing to do.  I'm fully prepared to opt out entirely (they've witnessed me do it) when it crosses over the line of what I'm willing to do. You can't negotiate until you're able to say and act on no. It's never my job to protect people from their own feelings, alter their reality, or to shield them from the consequences of their poor choices. I'm not their guardian or caregiver, they're not dependents or wards, I'm their peer. That's how I operate. I'm responsible for myself, they're responsible for themselves.

[Carol in Cal.]

Can you head her off by saying something funny or just 'Hey, let's keep it civil' if she starts to berate you?  That is really not OK.  

[prairiewindmomma]

If she is able to be nice to others but still chooses to berate you, it seems she is choosing to be.....difficult.

The next time she becomes uncivil on the phone, I would simply end the conversation and tell her you will be happy to talk with her again when she is in control of herself. “Hey, mom. I’m going to go because I don’t enjoy being yelled at. Let’s talk again later.” 
 

I don’t know that you are wrong by declaring she can’t be made happy. In some ways, that realization is very freeing because you can just choose to do what you want or need to do to be safe/happy/well.

 

[Farrar]

I definitely can’t say we can’t afford it. We can. It’s just that we want to be able to afford other things and have a cushion for emergencies and so forth. That’s why I said I feel manipulated by it. It’s like, you could do this thing for me but you’re choosing not to love/see me. Except, that’s not the choice. I don’t have to rent a house to see her. Or, I don’t think I should have to.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Farrar

[Farrar]

7 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Can you head her off by saying something funny or just 'Hey, let's keep it civil' if she starts to berate you?  That is really not OK.  

Not really. She doesn’t let me get a word in edgewise.

And it’s not like she’s screaming at me. She’s just agitated and spiraling through all her negative thoughts about how unfair I’ve been. And once she gets going, you can’t really pause her and she tends to start digging into things from years ago and talking about big things that are related in that they’re part of her situation, but not things I can fix, like being widowed and so forth. It’s not really head off-able.

[Pen]

Do you have siblings checking on her well being?   If not, I’d at least do that. Maybe warn 15 yo in advance to just let her talk .  

[katilac]

18 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 I don’t think Ds needs to apologize. He set a boundary with her, even if he didn’t do it in an ideal way. Let his relationship with her be between them to work out.

I agree, and I certainly wouldn't make him apologize. Someone was going at his mom and he defended her. And yes, set a boundary, and I would value him setting a boundary more than I would value the etiquette of offering an apology. 

I accidentally deleted the next part, but I also agree that I wouldn't be jumping in to smooth things over. I would do my best to let go of anger and frustration, but I would also remain aware that I wasn't the one who roughed things up, so I am not responsible for smoothing them over. 

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yep. Minimum $2000 would be to rent a house for a week with her standards. Actually, probably a good bit more. For her to visit us, it's the cost of a tank of gas.

It's tied together for her. She sees the "let's go on a trip together" as emotional labor on her behalf. I can't not see the price tags. We can swing it. But also, we're looking down college costs and professional training ballet costs and home repairs. I would rather not do it, especially not if my kids are going to whine about it and dh is going to be grouchy about it.

And that's perfectly reasonable. Two true things get said often on this board: one, you don't have to explain why you decline an invitation, and two, 'no' is a complete sentence. 

The trip isn't going to work for us. We can do X, Y, or Z. Do any of those sound good to you?

14 hours ago, Farrar said:

At this point, I guess my fear is that nothing is good enough. It's honestly part of why I haven't gone yet. Sigh. She and I were supposed to have a girls weekend in NYC... in May. Obviously that did not happen. I'm fine to go down there, but I feel like then it will be her being bitter about things. Dh says he'd rather go with me. She is very diffused around him. She respects him WAY more than me.

In another post, you said that several people told you that she's always like that. In this post, you say that she acts differently around your dh. Based on that, I'm going to offer my thoughts based on personal experience: 

People who have that explosive and attacking type of personality often go to great lengths to hide it from some people. When the people they do attack say something about it, they want other people to not believe them. They often don't want to admit to themselves that they react unreasonably, and that's easier to do if a certain number of people are agreeing that they would 'never act that way.' If I never attack B, then B will always comfort and defend me. 

Sometimes they slip up and attack B, and B is really surprised and taken aback because they have never acted that way (B doesn't realize they have just never acted that way to her). Sometimes they successfully compartmentalize their relationships, and B goes a lifetime without once seeing that behavior. 

If other people reacted with zero surprise to your phone call story, and said that she's always been like that, you can pretty much take that to the bank. She's always been like that, just not to everyone. It's unfortunately likely that she will act that way toward you now more often, because she has broken the idea that 'she would never act that way.' Set hard boundaries, and don't subject yourself to bad behavior. If someone is berating or attacking you, it's perfectly reasonable to say you have to go and just hang up or leave. 

Good luck, I hope you find a workable solution. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by katilac

[Farrar]

6 hours ago, Pen said:

Do you have siblings checking on her well being?   If not, I’d at least do that. Maybe warn 15 yo in advance to just let her talk .  

She literally formed a group for that - they all check on each other all the time. And I have the names of the people in the group and they have my contact info. I'm not concerned about her in a basic wellbeing sense anyway. And my step-sister is not far away and sees her outside once a week. Like, she's fine. I have zero concern beyond just... getting past this annoyance.

[Pen]

18 minutes ago, Farrar said:

She literally formed a group for that - they all check on each other all the time. And I have the names of the people in the group and they have my contact info. I'm not concerned about her in a basic wellbeing sense anyway. And my step-sister is not far away and sees her outside once a week. Like, she's fine. I have zero concern beyond just... getting past this annoyance.

 

What type communication would you want from an adult daughter if you were you, but were in her situation ? 

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

What type communication would you want from an adult daughter if you were you, but were in her situation ? 

I have asked myself this. But apparently the right answer for her is not the right answer for me because we would not be in this mess. I like direct but kind and understanding. She likes to hash everything out and pick it apart and get super emotional. When I was younger, I was kind of there for that. Now, I like a good retreat. Not every relationship has to be met head on with a lot of arguing.

[KungFuPanda]

I think my standard advice has become to go gently because a lot of people are not at their best right now.  Your mother sounds unreasonable under ordinary circumstances, but her ability to cope may be hampered due to current stress levels.

[hjffkj]

11 hours ago, Farrar said:

I definitely can’t say we can’t afford it. We can. It’s just that we want to be able to afford other things and have a cushion for emergencies and so forth. That’s why I said I feel manipulated by it. It’s like, you could do this thing for me but you’re choosing not to love/see me. Except, that’s not the choice. I don’t have to rent a house to see her. Or, I don’t think I should have to.

 

But the words 'can't afford' doesn't just mean you don't have the money for it.  It means you don't have the money for it in relation to your family's financial goals.  I have enough money to by a brand new car with cash but we can't afford to buy a brand new car since that money is for a variety of other things.   So, saying you can't afford a $2000 family trip isn't dishonest simply because you could actually pay for it.  If that is too much for a vacation at this point in time because you want the money you have now to go towards other things then saying you can't afford it is true.

[Farrar]

28 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

But the words 'can't afford' doesn't just mean you don't have the money for it.  It means you don't have the money for it in relation to your family's financial goals.  I have enough money to by a brand new car with cash but we can't afford to buy a brand new car since that money is for a variety of other things.   So, saying you can't afford a $2000 family trip isn't dishonest simply because you could actually pay for it.  If that is too much for a vacation at this point in time because you want the money you have now to go towards other things then saying you can't afford it is true.

I understand what you're saying and I try not to ping people over this, but I actually am sort of careful with this phrase. I'm pretty aware that we have a lot of privilege and while we're not wealthy, we have a lot more than a lot of people. And I honestly do find it abrasive when people who are spending big money on major luxuries try and nickel and dime artists, teachers, etc. or skimp on tips or charity because they "can't afford" something. And I see that way too often.

Practically, if I tell my mom that we can't afford it and then covid magically goes away and we all can travel again, then I'm booking the trip to Greece that we had to cancel back in February because of Covid. And she would absolutely have kittens over it. Of course, I'd also book us back for our girls trip to NYC. But... it probably wouldn't stop her from having kittens.

[Katy]

13 hours ago, Farrar said:

I definitely can’t say we can’t afford it. We can. It’s just that we want to be able to afford other things and have a cushion for emergencies and so forth. That’s why I said I feel manipulated by it. It’s like, you could do this thing for me but you’re choosing not to love/see me. Except, that’s not the choice. I don’t have to rent a house to see her. Or, I don’t think I should have to.

 

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I understand what you're saying and I try not to ping people over this, but I actually am sort of careful with this phrase. I'm pretty aware that we have a lot of privilege and while we're not wealthy, we have a lot more than a lot of people. And I honestly do find it abrasive when people who are spending big money on major luxuries try and nickel and dime artists, teachers, etc. or skimp on tips or charity because they "can't afford" something. And I see that way too often.

Practically, if I tell my mom that we can't afford it and then covid magically goes away and we all can travel again, then I'm booking the trip to Greece that we had to cancel back in February because of Covid. And she would absolutely have kittens over it. Of course, I'd also book us back for our girls trip to NYC. But... it probably wouldn't stop her from having kittens.

 

The word you're looking for is "budget."  As in, "I'm sorry mom, but $2000 on a rental house isn't in our budget until the kids are out of college."

Your other budgetary line items are none of her business.