Melody1 Posted August 13, 2020 Posted August 13, 2020 My son is 13 and we are really struggling with writing. He has gone through all of the WWE books and book one of WWS. For grammar, we covered all of the FLL and then have used various other grammar curriculum since then. I also put him in an essay writing class this summer to give him some perspective and instruction that wasn't from me. He struggles with the whole writing process: run-on sentences, well constructed paragraphs, and just an overall dry, clunky writing. I am stuck and don't know how to help him. Most other subjects come very naturally to him. He breezes through math, science, coding, foreign languages, etc. He is also a voracious reader. How do I help him with writing? Quote
73349 Posted August 13, 2020 Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 🍿 Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren Quote
Melody1 Posted August 13, 2020 Author Posted August 13, 2020 Overall, the class went well. He received great feedback and some additional instruction. But as he finished up the 8 week course, his final paper was fraught with all of the same issues. Thank you for the suggestion! I will look into it. 1 Quote
8filltheheart Posted August 13, 2020 Posted August 13, 2020 I would go back to the very basics and take an approach that you know will lead to success. The easiest type of paragraph for kids to write in logical order are how-to paragraphs. They have to be written sequentially or the process will obviously not work. I would pick things that he would be interested in writing about and start there. For an 8th grader, that could be anything from how to build a potato gun to constructing a tree house to making homemade ice cream. Anything, really, that can be written sequentially and with interest appeal. I'd have him create an outline. Then, I'd work with him on how to turn it into an interesting presentation of ideas vs. do this, do that, do this next, etc. You cuuld look at the model on pg 44 here on learning how to swim. Same basic premise, just on whatever topic interests him. Conversely, you can take models of well-written paragraphs and have him take them apart to identify their specific components: topic sentence, supporting details, interest-getting details, etc. Give him paragraphs that you have printed up without his having read them, cut the sentences apart and hand him them disorganized, and have him arrange the sentences into logical order to create the original paragraph (cut and paste something into word and make individual sentences separate so he can't just organize by shape but has to organize by content.) Sometimes kids need to think about things through a different lens and work backward to understanding why paragraphs need to be well-constructed. The reader doesn't have the knowledge inside of the head of the author. All they have are the words on the paper. Kids often interject thoughts into their writing that doesn't exist on the paper. Take some of his paragraphs and do the same with them. Ask him to lay them out in order. As he does it, ask him if he sees gaps in the information that the reader might need to fully understand, etc. 3 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 13, 2020 Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) I find that there are too many different steps in the *process* of writing for MANY students to tackle all at once. And when a student dislikes writing or is overwhelmed by writing, they tend to want to do exactly that -- blurp it all out on paper at once and be done with it. And many many students can NOT simultaneously think of something to write, manage the physical act of writing/typing, AND simultaneously juggle punctuation, spelling, run-ons/fragments, and style -- those last after the word "juggle" need to be tackled at a later stage. The "thinking of what to say" stages (brainstorming / organizing); the "getting it onto paper stage (rough draft or "sloppy copy" stage); and the "fixing and polishing" stages (revision and proof-editing), are all VERY different from one another, and require a very different mindset to do each stage well. JMO, but students at this phase of writing development really need: 1. LOTS of 1-on-1 scaffolding (parent or tutor) throughout the process, especially the brainstorming/organizing stage, and the revision stage 2. realize/accept that they are going to be sitting with this piece of writing for a while, and working on it MULTIPLE TIMES -- that each stage needs to be done separately at different times, so they can fully focus on doing JUST that particular task in the writing PROCESS I find that giving my students a detailed checklist/rubric for each stage of the writing stage helps. Also, giving them a deadline for each stage, and reminding them that they are ONLY responsible for that "bite" of the overall assignment. And that I do NOT award extra points for racing through the stages trying to get it done in one shot 😉 -- in fact, I'm more likely to hand it back and tell them to re-do and give me JUST what I asked for, and to use the checklist/rubric to make sure they do ALL of what I asked for in that "bite" of the assignment. Edited August 14, 2020 by Lori D. 4 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 13, 2020 Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) Also, at this age: A LOT of my students have NOT yet developed the thinking and logic skills for how to build an argument for any kind of persuasive writing (argumentative, comparison, literary analysis). I find that it is MUCH more effective to back up and do *single paragraph* assignments over and over until they are solid with: - complete sentences and grammatically correct sentences - paragraph parts and paragraph structure needed for a complete paragraph - supporting facts, examples, details - transitions - practice revision and proof-editing Then once they are solid with single complete paragraphs of various types, it's fairly simple to expand the single paragraph into a multi-paragraph (or multi-page) essay or paper -- the structure is very similar, you just go into more detail/depth with more points/reasons. The great thing is that there are a ton of different kinds of things you can write about in that complete one-paragraph format because descriptive, narrative, and expository writing all are pretty straight-forward for students. It is the persuasive writing that is hard/tricky, because that requires a lot of thinking, and not only having an opinion, but figuring out how to back up that opinion with an argument of support. Just quickly, those first 3 different types of writing naturally help you work on different aspects of basic paragraphs: - Descriptive paragraphs --> logical order of descriptive details; word choice; thinking about audience (who are you writing this for and why) - Narrative paragraphs --> transitions; fleshing out with details; logical flow of the story details; beginning (hook & intro) / middle (body) / end (conclusion) - Expository paragraphs --> topic sentence; supporting facts/examples; citing sources (+ discussing plagiarism and reliable sources) While you work on those types of paragraphs, you can also practice activities that encourage thinking, and, having an opinion and supporting it with reasons/points -- key to building an argument of support that is the a huge part of persuasive writing. Edited August 13, 2020 by Lori D. 6 Quote
Melody1 Posted August 14, 2020 Author Posted August 14, 2020 Thank you all for your help! I think we will take the semester off from formal curriculum and take time to work on sentences and paragraphs. Hopefully we can find topics that he wants to write about. Lori D. - I am pretty sure you have met my child! Ha! Your first sentence perfectly described the struggle we are going through. It does make me feel better that this is common for his age. Thank you for all of the feedback and suggestions. 2 Quote
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 This is what I am doing with my ds13 8th grader for first semester: - First, ds has a beautiful writing voice, so luckily we are not dealing with lack of style per se. But we are dealing still with run ons, awkward phrasing from time to time, lack of commas, and other details. At what point in the writing process are you finding run-ons? I find we have the most problems when ds is under the mistaken impression that he is supposed to just write and then hand it to me, without once going back through to read it over. So we're going to be working hard on revision this year. - We're going to focus on paragraphs for the semester. - I am having him read A Little History of Economics and A Little History of Philosophy independently, one chapter a week. I am reading ahead of him, and pulling out key vocabulary and concepts, which I use to create a study guide. It's just Chapter Name ----> List of vocab and concepts. His job is to read through my list, read the chapter, then hand write a paragraph summary of the chapter that hits all the points on my study guide list. We are then taking those paragraphs all the way through the process- that is, revision and editing- on the computer, together. I have printed out a few lists of things like transition words and the "they say/I say" templates to help during revision. My goal is to remove scaffolding in the following order: - Have him choose the important vocab and concepts without my study guide, jotting them on a post-it as he reads, then comparing to mine. - Complete handwriting and first revision on computer without my assistance, which should include reorganizing into the best flowing paragraph. Final corrections together. - Removing study guide completely. He will read, highlight/note, and write his paragraph from his own list of key terms/concepts. The two books I mentioned are part of a series by Yale press, and they (so far) have a great format for this. The chapters are quite short, so a paragraph summary is usually the right length (sometimes it takes two), they are written simply and accessibly, but not dumbed down- perfect level for middle school, in my opinion. We're about three weeks in, which I realize is early times! But they seem to be a perfect fit for writing across content areas with minimal parental prep work. 4 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 14, 2020 Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: ...At what point in the writing process are you finding run-ons? I find we have the most problems when ds is under the mistaken impression that he is supposed to just write and then hand it to me, without once going back through to read it over. So we're going to be working hard on revision this year. Almost always in the rough draft, all the way up into the late high school grades, unless the student is a natural writer. 😉 Yes, you fix that by waiting until after the rough draft writing, and at a separate/later time after the student has had time to change gears and let the paper simmer on the back burner of the brain, THEN go back and do revision. Good plan! 6 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: This is what I am doing with my ds13 8th grader for first semester: - ...working hard on revision this year. - We're going to focus on paragraphs for the semester. - ... taking those paragraphs all the way through the process- that is, revision and editing- on the computer, together. I have printed out a few lists of things like transition words and the "they say/I say" templates to help during revision. Great focused goals! And very realistic! 😄 6 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: ... We are then taking those paragraphs all the way through the process- that is, revision and editing- on the computer, together. I have printed out a few lists of things like transition words and the "they say/I say" templates to help during revision... Yes! Working on the computer starting with the rough draft (or even the brainstorming/organizing, if that method fits the student) is EXTREMELY helpful, as students are MUCH more willing and able to come into the revision stage with a willingness to make the "big" fixes that may be needed. Here are items I put on the checklist for the revision stage for my students -- the "big grit sandpaper fixes": - add what's missing (part of the intro, part of the thesis statement, transitions, topic sentences, supporting points, details, commentary, conclusion, etc.) - remove bits that don't belong - combine sentences that overlap/say the same thing twice, just in different words (I tell my students: "pick your favorite version" lol) - move parts around if needed for smoother, more logical flow or for better grammatical sense - run-ons/fragments Proof-editing is about very minor fixes -- the "fine grit sandpaper polishing": - inconsistencies (change of verb tense; change of voice (from 3rd person to 2nd (you) or 1st (I, me, we); disagreement of subject verb or pronoun/antecedent) [for students further along in writing, I include inconsistencies under revision, since they have few/no big things to fix 😉 ] - doubled words/missing words - capitalization/punctuation - typos/spelling errors/homophone errors (e.g.: "their" for "there"; "too" for "to") - formatting issues 6 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: ...My goal is to remove scaffolding in the following order: - Have him choose the important vocab and concepts without my study guide, jotting them on a post-it as he reads, then comparing to mine. - Complete handwriting and first revision on computer without my assistance, which should include reorganizing into the best flowing paragraph. Final corrections together. When it is writing that is the same thing each week that is expository and is based out of the same materials , this plan for removing scaffolding should work fine. I did something similar for DSs in 7th/8th grades with our World Cultures/Geography studies -- 2 solid paragraphs per week, each about 1 country, based on information they pulled from the same atlas resources each. Repetition built in solid paragraph structure -- hurray! 😄 However, if you're talking about writing that must be generated by the student and requires much more analysis and building an argument of support for an opinion or claim -- things like literary analysis and persuasive/argumentative writing -- students tend to need scaffolding much longer, especially for the brainstorming/organizing stages. Also, I find that students benefit most from scaffolding and input at those earlier stages rather than the proof-editing stage, which is more about tiny errors. For proof-editing, I recommend that my students hand the paper to a parent or sibling or friend who hasn't seen the paper before, and have that person read it aloud to the student -- that guaranteers that the fresh eyes will catch all the typos, punctuation/capitalization hiccups, doubled words/missing words, formatting errors, and any other tiny errors, and the student will hear where the mistakes are. All that to say, try to not get impatient if your DS needs scaffolding longer than you think he should -- he may need it up into 9th/10th grades, depending on what kinds of assignments he's doing and what his unique development rate is like. 😉 For analysis and building arguments of support types of writing, my own DSs (average writer and struggling writer) needed scaffolding, esp. in the brainstorming and revision stages, up into 10th/11th grades (although the amount of help/input was much less than what they needed in 7th/8th grades). Also, a fair number of my high school co-op class students still need a LOT of scaffolding in those same stages -- most need a good amount of scaffolding throughout 9th grade, some need a good amount of scaffolding through 10th/11th grades, and a few need the scaffolding all the way into 12th grade. BEST wishes for a GREAT year of writing! Warmest regards, Lori D. Edited August 15, 2020 by Lori D. 3 Quote
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 13 hours ago, Lori D. said: However, if you're talking about writing that must be generated by the student and requires much more analysis and building an argument of support for an opinion or claim -- things like literary analysis and persuasive/argumentative writing -- students tend to need scaffolding much longer, especially for the brainstorming/organizing stages. I discovered, by accident, that the SAT essay prep prompts available online seem to all have the student reading an argumentative piece, then writing about how the argument is constructed. I am hoping to use these sample prompts to segue us into argumentative writing- spending a while analyzing the construction of other people's arguments before moving on to constructing it ourselves. 1 Quote
8filltheheart Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 Just for perspective in case a student struggles with They Say, I Say (I have never used it), it is a college level book. My dd had to use it in her freshman English comp class. A lot of 8th graders may not be ready for that level of analytical writing. My dd personally detested the book bc it is so formulaic. For her, a gifted writer, it was incredibly confining. For students who can't organize their thoughts, it is probably a great framework. But, being able to structure coherent paragraphs and simple reports might need to be foundational prior to the analytical portion. (Since I haven't actually used it, though, that is just my impression from talking to dd, not experience.) 1 Quote
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 @8FillTheHeart- I agree with your dd's assessment of They Say/I Say! But the template I linked is basically everything useful form the book in bullet point and helpful for someone who has a good idea of what he wants to say, but doesn't know some of the magic words, phrases and verbs to present an argument in a nuanced way. It's a great jumping off point for a kid who has a fear of the blank page and is similar in many way to some of the other sentence-building methods out there like Kilgalon, but specifically for the argumentative essay. I think it's a good crutch or stepping stone. 2 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: ...I discovered, by accident, that the SAT essay prep prompts available online seem to all have the student reading an argumentative piece, then writing about how the argument is constructed. I am hoping to use these sample prompts to segue us into argumentative writing- spending a while analyzing the construction of other people's arguments before moving on to constructing it ourselves. Great idea! Slightly similar to your idea, back when DSs were 8th/9th grade, I got a great idea from 8FillTheHeart (who was Momof7 then! 😄 ), and it turned out to be the most helpful writing we did all through high school. Once a week, each week, we each picked a prompt from an old SAT essay prompt (still available halfway down this page, click on "SAT Prompts"), and we each wrote a timed essay, and then (gently) critiqued them together. I had us start very slowly/gently (10 minutes, 1 complete paragraph), and then once we had that under our belts, a month or three later, I would add another element for us to practice, until after about 1.5 years we were up to full 3-5 paragraph essays in 25 minutes.In case it helps in looking ahead, the heart of the structure of argumentative writing is:- the thesis statement, which has 3 parts:1. thesis topic (overall subject of the paper)2. thesis claim (your debatable claim, position, or "take" on the thesis topic)3. thesis direction (big picture/overview of the major points of your argument,that you will flesh out in the body of the paper)- the argument of support (thesis direction) -- each body paragraph fleshing out a point of the argument in support of the thesis claim* topic sentence (stating which point of the argument you will cover in this paragraph)* if needed, detail/explanation sentence(s)* specific piece of support -- facts, examples, anecdotes* commentary -- sentence(s) explaining how/why the piece of support actually supports the point of the paragraph [additional piece(s) of support + commentary sentence(s)]* concluding commentary -- sentence(s) explaining how the point of the paragraph supports the thesis claimBelow is a detailed list of the types of sentences needed in the structure of a complete paragraph, and then the types of sentences needed to make a complete essay. Of course there will be variations in numbers and lengths of sentences, and the order of the sentences will vary with individual style. Also a few of the types of sentences are not needed for every type of paragraph or essay -- it depends on what kind of writing you are doing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive).Also, in case it helps for practicing, the main types of argumentative essay writing assignments in high school are usually:- literary analysis (character analysis; show how literary devices or a theme are at work; explain a key quotation; etc.) - persuasive essay (like the old SAT essays -- have an opinion, write an essay that is an argument of support for that opinion)- comparison (compare/contrast) -- AND it includes your conclusion or claim or idea/position as a RESULT of comparing- cause/effect- argumentative research paper with citations___________________________________ COMPLETE PARAGRAPH STRUCTURE intro sentence(s) - topic sentence -- overview of what the paragraph is about; "this is what I'm going to talk about"; often includes a "claim" (thought/idea; position or "take" on the topic; opinion; etc.) - explanation sentence(s) -- if needed; used to flesh out or explain the topic sentence body sentences - supporting sentences -- concrete evidence; examples, facts, examples; sometimes a quotation or an anecdote works as support - detail sentence(s) -- flesh out/describe/give details about the support concluding sentences - commentary sentence -- connect the dots between support and topic; explains how/why the example/fact shows/proves your big idea in the topic sentence; "This shows that _________" - concluding sentence -- overview sum up of what the paragraph was about; "I just told you about ______" ESSAY STRUCTURE I. introductory paragraph - 'hook' sentence -- to catch reader attention (examples: question; quotation; aact/statistic; bold/surprising/shocking statement; definition of a key word/idea in the paragraph; etc.) - explanation sentence(s) -- if needed; used to flesh out or explain or give "backstory" about your overall topic; or define any terms that may be unfamiliar to the reader that you will use in the essay - "intro info" -- if writing a literary or film analysis essay, a sentence that includes the author's name and the title of the book (or short story or poem or play), or, the title of the film (with release date in parentheses) and director's name - thesis statement (may be more than 1 sentence) * thesis topic -- the subject of the paper * thesis claim -- your "claim" (position, "take on", "big idea") about the thesis topic * thesis direction -- overview of the points/reasons that will be fleshed out in the body (each point/reason gets its own paragraph) II (each) body paragraph - transition -- often the transition and topic sentence combine nicely in 1 sentence - topic sentence -- states what specific point/reason/sub-topic will be covered in this paragraph - explanation sentence(s) -- if needed; used to flesh out or explain the topic sentence - supporting sentences -- facts, examples, quotation, anecdote, etc. - detail sentence(s) -- flesh out the support - commentary sentence -- connects the dots between support and point/reason of this paragraph; explains how/why the example/fact shows/proves the point stated in the topic sentence; "This shows that _________" - concluding sentence -- overview sum up of what the paragraph was about; "I just told you about ______"; often this is a sentence of concluding commentary that connects the dots between the point/reason of this paragraph, and the thesis claim (in the intro paragraph); explains how/why the point/reason of this paragraph proves your "argument" of your thesis claim (in the intro paragraph); "This shows that _________" III concluding paragraph - transition sentence -- smooth from the close detail at the end of the last body paragraph to going "broad" again with the - sum-up sentence(s) -- restate the thesis in a fresh way to reinforce the essay's main idea in light of the overall argument usually including a brief summary of the paper's main points - "clincher" sentence(s) -- leave the reader with your final thought; often ties back in with either the paper's title or "hook"; (examples: answers the question asked in the hook; use a quotation, or complete the quotation used in the "hook", or a "twist" on a major quotation used in the essay; a "call for action"; a final "food for thought" type of statement; etc.) _______________________________ 3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said: Just for perspective in case a student struggles with They Say, I Say (I have never used it), it is a college level book. My dd had to use it in her freshman English comp class. A lot of 8th graders may not be ready for that level of analytical writing. My dd personally detested the book bc it is so formulaic. For her, a gifted writer, it was incredibly confining. For students who can't organize their thoughts, it is probably a great framework. But, being able to structure coherent paragraphs and simple reports might need to be foundational prior to the analytical portion. (Since I haven't actually used it, though, that is just my impression from talking to dd, not experience.) Just adding on to 8's thoughts about They Say, I Say -- a few middle school/high school level resources that might work better for some students to start with:- Twisting Arms: Teaching Students How to Write to Persuade (di Prince) -- gr. 6-8 level; designed for a classroom, but can adapt- If They Can Argue Well, They Can Write Well (McBride) -- gr. 7/8+ level; designed for a classroom, but can adapt- Scholastic: 50 Debate Prompts for Kids (Dahlie) -- free pdf; topics for practicing argumentative writing or oral debate Edited August 15, 2020 by Lori D. 2 1 Quote
Melody1 Posted August 15, 2020 Author Posted August 15, 2020 @Lori D. Thank you so much for all of the feedback! I think I am going to have to print it all out and ruminate on it a bit. After reading through everything on this thread, I feel like I am lacking in my instructional skills for writing. I'm not sure where that leaves me. More research, I guess. Quote
Melody1 Posted August 15, 2020 Author Posted August 15, 2020 Also, I have been looking at Killgallon's materials. I am thinking that Sentence Composing for Middle School and/or Paragraphs for Middle School might be appropriate to help my son. I have no experience with these and don't know anyone who does. I can't fully tell if they are just copy work, or also cover all of the concepts of great sentence and paragraph composition as well. Any thoughts? Quote
EKS Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 On 8/13/2020 at 1:26 PM, Melody1 said: How do I help him with writing? Literally the best thing you can do, short of hiring a tutor, is to take a writing intensive class yourself, preferably in an area that is unfamiliar to you (academic writing, not creative or personal writing). Do whatever it takes to get the highest grade possible, and pay attention every step of the way to your own process and how it corresponds to your teaching and your son's struggles. Once you've done that, I'd stop using writing programs. Read the books Engaging Ideas (Bean), Habits of the Creative Mind (MIller and Jurecic), and They Say/I Say (Graff, Birkenstein, and Durst) and incorporate their ideas into your teaching. Have him write about what he's learning. It helps to use at least one resource that has interesting writing prompts (an example is the history text Ways of the World by Strayer, but it may be a bit advanced for him right now). Choose three prompts and discuss them with him. Then have him pick one to write about. Discuss that one in more detail--taking notes as you go (you take notes, not him). Writing is a manifestation of thinking, and you can't have good writing without good thinking--these discussions are a means to get his thoughts in order. Have him put the points he's come up with in a logical order, and number them in the notes. Then have him write a short essay using the notes, typing for him at first. As he writes, show him how to tailor his writing to a particular audience, how to use transitions, and how to use attributive tags and cite his sources. Then work with him to edit his writing (which won't need much editing since you'll be right there with him--be sure to keep some awkwardness in so there is something to change). The idea is that over time you will remove the scaffold very gradually. The idea is not only to allow him to ease into the difficult process of thinking and writing, but also to get him to understand first hand what it means to produce good academic writing. 1 Quote
mellifera33 Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 On 8/13/2020 at 2:15 PM, whitehawk said: How did the class go for him? Maybe you would like to read The Writing Revolution? That's what I plan to use for my struggling writer, who's now entering 7th. (There's a sample chapter linked near the bottom of that page.) I started using the framework of The Writing Revolution last year with my dyslexic/dysgraphic 6th grader, and the improvement I've seen in his writing is beyond what I could have imagined. The timing coincided with him deciding that if he wants to be a historian, he needs to be able to write well, and he went from complaining bitterly about writing a couple of sentences to happily outlining and drafting paragraphs and short compositions. The information in TWR wasn't really new to me, but I was having trouble with the basic pedagogy of writing and needed the hand-holding and the explicit instructions for exactly the kinds of practice that a student needs for each aspect of writing. 3 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, Melody1 said: @Lori D. Thank you so much for all of the feedback! I think I am going to have to print it all out and ruminate on it a bit. After reading through everything on this thread, I feel like I am lacking in my instructional skills for writing. I'm not sure where that leaves me. More research, I guess. Believe me, I understand! I have always been a natural writer (and editor). Trying to TEACH writing has been a whole different matter. 🤨 😱 😵 It has taken me YEARS of MUCH research and fumbling trial & error, first working with my own DSs, and then teaching Lit. & Writing classes for other homeschool children, before I've finally hit a point fairly recently where I actually am beginning to have a bit of a grasp on teaching writing. And it continues to require research and inspiration because every year I have a few students who need to see/hear it in a different way. So I'm still working on developing the "toolset" that will help students take the baton for writing... 2 Quote
Momto6inIN Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 You've received some great advice here, so I won't reiterate it. But I do want to encourage you that high school is a journey. Very few students walk into 9th grade being able to thoughtfully analyze a topic and write a beautifully crafted essay about it. There is a LOT of maturity that happens over those 4 years! So do the hard work as described by others above, keep plugging away at it, but don't despair. My 2nd D'S finished 8th grade with a research paper that I literally cried about in bed that night it was so bad. He consistently put sly (or so he thought) references to elves and Hobbits into every.single.paper. he wrote that year. He could misspell the same easy word 3 different ways in the same paper. I felt like a complete and total failure. He just graduated and is going into Communications (!!! 😂) at Purdue with the highest merit scholarship they give and one of his letters of recommendation was from a 70+ year old DE prof who said he was the best writer she'd ever had in her career. It wasn't because I'm so great. I'm not! 🙄 But we kept working on it and eventually he really did grow up. Yours will too 😊 4 Quote
Lori D. Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said: You've received some great advice here, so I won't reiterate it. But I do want to encourage you that high school is a journey. Very few students walk into 9th grade being able to thoughtfully analyze a topic and write a beautifully crafted essay about it. There is a LOT of maturity that happens over those 4 years! So do the hard work as described by others above, keep plugging away at it, but don't despair. My 2nd D'S finished 8th grade with a research paper that I literally cried about in bed that night it was so bad. He consistently put sly (or so he thought) references to elves and Hobbits into every.single.paper. he wrote that year. He could misspell the same easy word 3 different ways in the same paper. I felt like a complete and total failure. He just graduated and is going into Communications (!!! 😂) at Purdue with the highest merit scholarship they give and one of his letters of recommendation was from a 70+ year old DE prof who said he was the best writer she'd ever had in her career. It wasn't because I'm so great. I'm not! 🙄 But we kept working on it and eventually he really did grow up. Yours will too 😊 Congratulations Momto6inIN! That's a fantastic conclusion to DS's journey! And just seconding the thought that learning to write IS a journey! Writing comes out of THINKING, and students' brains develop so much in the logical, abstract, and critical thinking areas in the teen years. All of those skills are foundational to thinking, and hence, to writing. 2 Quote
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Melody1 said: Also, I have been looking at Killgallon's materials. I am thinking that Sentence Composing for Middle School and/or Paragraphs for Middle School might be appropriate to help my son. I have no experience with these and don't know anyone who does. I can't fully tell if they are just copy work, or also cover all of the concepts of great sentence and paragraph composition as well. Any thoughts? Kilgalon's books won't work as standalones for writing instruction, but they are an excellent warm-up exercise in sentence style to add to any curriculum. I think they can mostly be done orally, or with teacher writing things on a whiteboard while kid(s) call out ideas. They do not include a lot of "notes to teacher," you'll need to sit with the book and study its method for a bit to get a feel for it. They are essentially written as a work text to the student, but I think they wouldn't be very helpful unless a teacher was guiding the lesson a bit. 1 Quote
domestic_engineer Posted August 15, 2020 Posted August 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Melody1 said: Also, I have been looking at Killgallon's materials. I am thinking that Sentence Composing for Middle School and/or Paragraphs for Middle School might be appropriate to help my son. I have no experience with these and don't know anyone who does. I can't fully tell if they are just copy work, or also cover all of the concepts of great sentence and paragraph composition as well. Any thoughts? Depending on how voracious of a reader your son is, you might consider using Killgallon's books of the same title but at the elementary level. To have Killgallon pull a sentence from a book he's already read might be more exciting/meaningful than a book he hasn't read yet ... at least that's the way it is in our household. Killgallon is not copywork; it pulls examples of great sentences/paragraphs from modern-day literature. The student will study it (how it's organized) to see what makes it great (this is where the teacher/parent is needed). Then the student uses that excellent sentence/paragraph as a model to create a sentence/paragraph of his own. It's like after studying this "master example" the student will have a skeleton from which he can use to hang his own ideas upon. The Killgallon's website doesn't seem to be working, but the one page that is working right now (here) gives a little insight into how the books operate (if you're short on time skip ahead to the near bottom before the blue text and read to the end.) Quote
Melody1 Posted August 15, 2020 Author Posted August 15, 2020 4 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said: Kilgalon's books won't work as standalones for writing instruction, but they are an excellent warm-up exercise in sentence style to add to any curriculum. I think they can mostly be done orally, or with teacher writing things on a whiteboard while kid(s) call out ideas. They do not include a lot of "notes to teacher," you'll need to sit with the book and study its method for a bit to get a feel for it. They are essentially written as a work text to the student, but I think they wouldn't be very helpful unless a teacher was guiding the lesson a bit. I should have mentioned originally that I was not intending for these books to be curriculum, just a supplement. 1 Quote
Melody1 Posted August 15, 2020 Author Posted August 15, 2020 4 hours ago, domestic_engineer said: Depending on how voracious of a reader your son is, you might consider using Killgallon's books of the same title but at the elementary level. To have Killgallon pull a sentence from a book he's already read might be more exciting/meaningful than a book he hasn't read yet ... at least that's the way it is in our household. Killgallon is not copywork; it pulls examples of great sentences/paragraphs from modern-day literature. The student will study it (how it's organized) to see what makes it great (this is where the teacher/parent is needed). Then the student uses that excellent sentence/paragraph as a model to create a sentence/paragraph of his own. It's like after studying this "master example" the student will have a skeleton from which he can use to hang his own ideas upon. The Killgallon's website doesn't seem to be working, but the one page that is working right now (here) gives a little insight into how the books operate (if you're short on time skip ahead to the near bottom before the blue text and read to the end.) From what you have stated, this sounds like a great addition to our curriculum. I have done a bit of this on my own with my kids. 1 Quote
Melody1 Posted August 16, 2020 Author Posted August 16, 2020 20 hours ago, Momto6inIN said: You've received some great advice here, so I won't reiterate it. But I do want to encourage you that high school is a journey. Very few students walk into 9th grade being able to thoughtfully analyze a topic and write a beautifully crafted essay about it. There is a LOT of maturity that happens over those 4 years! So do the hard work as described by others above, keep plugging away at it, but don't despair. My 2nd D'S finished 8th grade with a research paper that I literally cried about in bed that night it was so bad. He consistently put sly (or so he thought) references to elves and Hobbits into every.single.paper. he wrote that year. He could misspell the same easy word 3 different ways in the same paper. I felt like a complete and total failure. He just graduated and is going into Communications (!!! 😂) at Purdue with the highest merit scholarship they give and one of his letters of recommendation was from a 70+ year old DE prof who said he was the best writer she'd ever had in her career. It wasn't because I'm so great. I'm not! 🙄 But we kept working on it and eventually he really did grow up. Yours will too 😊 Thank you for your reply! I am still chuckling about your story this morning. Having just read The Lord of the Rings this summer, I could see my son doing the same. I did need a reminder that an element of this is simply that he is a 13 year old boy. We will keep working, but was also both need grace. 🙂 1 Quote
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