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I need 4th grade help


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My nephew is 9 and my brother thankfully has agreed to not send him to school this year. They are in AR which I believe has easy requirements but I will research that later. 
This child has had a horrific couple of years, the worst of which Is that his mother died 7 months ago. And he had not seen her for a year before she died. My brother is not the most stable of parents but it is what it is.

Can you guide me on the most basic plan for keeping this kid from sinking completely. I believe my brother will listen to me and allow me to help.
Thank you. 

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3 minutes ago, Junie said:

This might be a good situation for a box kit with dvds.  Something that the dad could implement without a lot of effort would probably be the least overwhelming choice.

Does anyone have any suggestions on that? Also cost will be a big factor. He is disabled and has very little money. I can help some with that and I know my mother would too. 
but honestly I think any kind of boxed curriculum will overwhelm him. I was thinking more like a math curriculum, a grammar/LA curriculum, maybe story of the world for history, and a simple science plan. I think he would do much better with four separate core subject plans that he could move at his own pace in each.

So what would be a good math curriculum to use for him? I think he is a smart kid but I imagine he is behind due to the circumstances of the last two years. Is there a good way to assess his math skills? I know Singapore used to have a math assessment online. Basically I’ve been out of the loop on this stuff for so long I just need some guidance

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If Christian is ok, I would go with CLE math.  It is so easy to implement and with lots of review, it will get him back on track.  It is affordable. 

LA workbooks like Growing with Grammar and Soaring with Spelling are also very easy to implement and affordable.  Add a booklist for the library (if they would go regularly) and a notebook for free writing and that is a very affordable and solid LA plan.  

Mystery Science -- I think they are still offering the free year.  The videos are engaging and the activities are super easy to implement. 

For history, SOTW either read aloud or audio. 

Edited by kristin0713
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19 hours ago, OKBud said:

Learning Language Arts Through Literature and CLE Math. Audiobooks and book/books and that's it.

Unless he can't read well. In that case he'd have to deal with that first. 

He can read well. I asked my brother that and he was a little offended. LOL I told him if his son reads well it makes everything else easier.

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Singapore, Saxon, and Math Mammoth have good placement tests that can also be used to assess gaps.

Math Mammoth is most flexible, she have various things you can buy for remediation, also more support than Singapore.

https://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/placement_tests.php

We lived in AR for a while, when I was there you had to take the Math/Reading portion of the IOWA tests yearly starting at grade 3 but I think they've dropped that requirement, also you had to send in a one page form to your district, easy, a lot of homeschoolers there. (But it's been a while, definitely check!)

 

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Arkansas has recently moved towards better phonics programs, but kids can look like they are reading fine but actually aren't with they way they teach balanced literacy.  I'd have him read the 10 words for his grade level and do my nonsense word test, so 35 words total, 10 for his current grade and 25 nonsense words.  If he can read all 10, good, if not, go back and give the rest of my reading grade level test. The nonsense word test has speed and accuracy norms.

Grade level test, a 4th grader should be able to read all 10 words on line 4. http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40L Test.pdf

Nonsense word test: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/NonsenseWordTest.pdf

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51 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

IIRC, your nephew has already had CPS involvement and your brother has some mental health issues. In case of subsequent investigation, I really recommend that he have written lesson plans and physical materials on hand in addition to whatever else is going on.

Well, I hope he will have materials on hand because he is actually educating his son.... but the State of AR does not require much of anything to comply with the law.  

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These books are very basic and straight-forward for language arts.  There is a separate book for spelling, writing, and grammar. The lessons are short, about 15 minutes a day.  There is some overlap between grammar and writing, so I probably would not do both, but that depends on whether your nephew has had any grammar instruction before. 

Growing with Grammar

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22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So many good suggestions here.  Makes me get so excited and I wish I lived closer to help my nephew.  

I emailed MathUSee but not heard back yet.....does anyone know if they have a placement test?

 

https://placement.mathusee.com/?_ga=2.110120261.1945887971.1597333277-1684498407.1596639127

This classroom site looks more useful to me:  https://mathusee.com/secure/teacher-resources/unit_tests/gamma-unit_test-placement.pdf

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20 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I really recommend a more traditional math than MUS in this situation. CLE is so easy to implement. The new skills are taught in very small increments right in the student workbook. They have placement tests on their website as well. 

Ok, what is non traditional about MUS?  

Also, someone said CLE is a Christian program?  How is math even religious/non religious?  But for a myriad of reasons I need to avoid recommending anything religious at all.

 

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17 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I really recommend a more traditional math than MUS in this situation. CLE is so easy to implement. The new skills are taught in very small increments right in the student workbook. They have placement tests on their website as well. 

I agree.  I think MUS is asking a lot of someone who is "not the most stable of parents".

I would keep things super simple.  

Math Mammoth - cheap, easy to implement (no juggling textbooks, workbooks, manipulatives, etc) and written to the student so it is largely independent.
Spelling Workout
Lantern English - becoming a good writer takes coaching, and Lantern's 8 week correspondence classes can provide that in a cheap, easy, flexible way.
Typing.com - free, and typing is a great skill to learn
Mr. Q free Classical Life Science
Story of the World - book or audiobook
Plus library books and documentaries and YouTube drawing videos...whatever he likes.

 

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18 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I agree.  I think MUS is asking a lot of someone who is "not the most stable of parents".

I would keep things super simple.  

Math Mammoth - cheap, easy to implement (no juggling textbooks, workbooks, manipulatives, etc) and written to the student so it is largely independent.
Spelling Workout
Lantern English - becoming a good writer takes coaching, and Lantern's 8 week correspondence classes can provide that in a cheap, easy, flexible way.
Typing.com - free, and typing is a great skill to learn
Mr. Q free Classical Life Science
Story of the World - book or audiobook
Plus library books and documentaries and YouTube drawing videos...whatever he likes.

 

I am feeling a little torn here, because I think manipulatives are vital at this age.  I am talking to  my mom who is an expert (literally--retired teacher with a specialty in teaching math to elementary aged kids) and she agrees...so obviously my brother will need our help with some of this.  I don't know really....hard to know what is best.  

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15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I am feeling a little torn here, because I think manipulatives are vital at this age.  I am talking to  my mom who is an expert (literally--retired teacher with a specialty in teaching math to elementary aged kids) and she agrees...so obviously my brother will need our help with some of this.  I don't know really....hard to know what is best.  

Sure, but Math Mammoth doesn't try to sell you a lot of specialty manipulatives.  The curriculum is open-ended enough that you can just use whatever you want, whatever clicks with the child, whatever is on hand.  All of my kids use Math Mammoth and we tend to use a cheap, dollar store abacus plus beans or beads or base-ten blocks or coins...whatever.

Plus, Math Mammoth really emphasizes the pictorial stage of math learning.  Normally the stages go from physical (manipulatives), to pictorial (pictures of manipulatives) to symbolic (numbers).  Clearly manipulatives are a useful learning aid (for some kids more than others), but they are something else to keep track or, pull out, clean up, etc.  I think the next best thing is a curriculum that teaches concepts deeply using lots of pictures that help students develop strong mental, visual models.

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Ok, then CLE will not work if he needs secular.  

I think that for manipulative to be an effective teaching tool, you need a parent or teacher who is invested in learning how to teach with them.  

I love MM, but I would be concerned about the level of challenge and the amount of problems per lesson.  And the lack of review.  

What about Teaching Textbooks for math?

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12 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I do think for place value it's a good idea to have a distinguishing feature like color for the different units. It really gets a key idea across. But at the beginning, we did use coins. 

 

DD8 pretty much never wanted to do the manipulative thing. She just wanted to do pictures. And I actually think that a picture can be a fine "manipulative," as long as you feel ownership of it... the point of a manipulative is to demonstrate the concept, and not all kids need something they can physically touch for that -- merely something that you can "manipulate" 😉 . 

We were the Forrest Gump of beans. We had every size you could imagine 

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3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

... the point of a manipulative is to demonstrate the concept, and not all kids need something they can physically touch for that -- merely something that you can "manipulate"

Plus, by fourth grade some concepts are becoming very unwieldy for physical manipulatives.  37 x 42 is very easy to draw via the area model, but pretty inconvenient to manipulate with beans.  My 7 year old is working in Math Mammoth 4 now, and he uses the abacus for simple multiplication because he is not rock solid on his facts yet.  But other than that, it's not like we are pulling out beads to model adding hundredths.

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25 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

I love MM, but I would be concerned about the level of challenge and the amount of problems per lesson.  And the lack of review.  

I agree that Math Mammoth is a rigorous, challenging curriculum.  I would definitely have him take the placement test - there would be no shame in him doing Math Mammoth 3 or perhaps 3B and 4A.

I also agree that it has a lot of problems on each page.  For most kids there is no reason to complete them all.  I tend to assign about 1/2 - 3/4 of the problems and if they show mastery on those we move on.  If they struggle on the first batch, then I help them reread the teaching portion of the lesson, and then have them try the rest of the problems.  For review, on a day when we are busy and don't have a lot of time for math, I will have them just flip through the book and do blank problems they find.

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Maybe Language Smarts from Critical Thinking Company?  It's definitely secular, and it would be easy to go at your own pace.  It's colorful and fun.  They have some nice sample pages on their website.  It's  pretty comprehensive with grammar and all the language arts.  So he could do that and throw in some fun novels to read and probably call it good.

https://www.criticalthinking.com/language-smarts-level-e.html

They also have Mathematical Reasoning which is good, but I don't know that your nephew could self-teach it.  

https://www.criticalthinking.com/mathematical-reasoning-level-e.html

 

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1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

Plus, by fourth grade some concepts are becoming very unwieldy for physical manipulatives.  37 x 42 is very easy to draw via the area model, but pretty inconvenient to manipulate with beans.  My 7 year old is working in Math Mammoth 4 now, and he uses the abacus for simple multiplication because he is not rock solid on his facts yet.  But other than that, it's not like we are pulling out beads to model adding hundredths.

 

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Right, at some point, you need to work out the pattern with small numbers, and extend it to other numbers. That's actually a useful skill to develop, anyway, plus the ability to explain it more generally. 

I agree that by 4th grade manipulatives are less useful. I fear though that his level is actually much lower than 4th grade and that he will need to revisit some concepts using manipulatives. But as someone mentioned they can be purchased separately.  

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2 hours ago, perkybunch said:

Maybe Language Smarts from Critical Thinking Company?  It's definitely secular, and it would be easy to go at your own pace.  It's colorful and fun.  They have some nice sample pages on their website.  It's  pretty comprehensive with grammar and all the language arts.  So he could do that and throw in some fun novels to read and probably call it good.

https://www.criticalthinking.com/language-smarts-level-e.html

They also have Mathematical Reasoning which is good, but I don't know that your nephew could self-teach it.  

https://www.criticalthinking.com/mathematical-reasoning-level-e.html

 

I really like the looks of this Language Smarts.  And the price is not bad. I agree the math might be a bit much for this situation.   My mom has a 4th grade math textbook that she has left from when she was tutoring a student....she thinks it will work fine.  It might need some supplemental materials.

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6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I really like the looks of this Language Smarts.  And the price is not bad. I agree the math might be a bit much for this situation.   My mom has a 4th grade math textbook that she has left from when she was tutoring a student....she thinks it will work fine.  It might need some supplemental materials.

Right Start math games, comes with abacus, it helped my daughter finally understand place value and borrowing and carrying, you exchange 10 ones beads for one ten bead.

https://www.rainbowresource.com/product/041356/RightStart-Mathematics-Math-Card-Games-Kit.html?trackcode=googleBase&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplp041356&sc_intid=041356&gclid=CjwKCAjw34n5BRA9EiwA2u9k3yIoyLBGKIM8h8NcjUx6zVLk7D36oQncwIED_S09t3RmORWYG_6X3BoCIDIQAvD_BwE

 

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13 hours ago, square_25 said:

Sorry to hijack, but I just tried this with my kids, and I'm curious how I'm supposed to grade this. DD8 could sound out basically every word, but for some of them, she simply didn't know how to pronounce them, so picked a wrong alternate pronunciation. So then whether she got a word right or not basically depended on whether she's heard the word much or not. 

How would you grade that? Her ability to read them didn't get any lower once she got past her technical reading level... I think she got more in line 12 than in line 7, because the words were ones she hears more often. 

(I don't really care what her reading level is, but I just know I've had this issue before when I read myself -- I don't say it right in my head, because I never hear the word said out loud.) 

ow as long o vs ow as ou is fine, some of the others you should know which is more common, you should be able to pick the more common option if you've been taught phonics well. You could go through my overview syllables program to make sure she knows all the patterns.

Here is the percentages based on the most common 17,000 words for spelling and reading, shows which is more common:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonogramsoundch.html

My quick version of the syllables class, worksheet: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/SuperSpeedSyllables.pdf

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc9CpQnQo18

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I find long i versus short i pretty random in long words. Short words are pretty easy, because usually you can tell whether it's long or short by the vowel, consonant, vowel pattern which makes it long, but longer words... I gotta say, they are not consistent. Same with u, I think. I don't think the rules for "the most common words" are super applicable, because you could extrapolate in a few ways. Like, you may have noticed that words starting with "di" but not with "dis" usually have a long i, but of course that doesn't always work 😉 . 

At the end of the day, I know how to read most of the words on that list because I hear them relatively often, and she doesn't because she does not. I did notice a few rules I should remind her about, like that the sound g makes depends on the letter after it -- she keeps forgetting that, and same for c. But I'm not sure I could teach her a coherent rule for the long vowel vs. short vowel thing other than "if it's before two consonants in a row (excepting special pairs like nd), it's likely to be short." Other than that, I expect she'll need to do the same kind of pattern-matching most of us do with English words. 

There are syllable division rules and rules about when things are more likely to be long or short! Go through the quick version of my syllables program, or if you like the overview, the whole thing. 

Webster's Speller words are sorted by schwa accent pattern, good for teaching that at a younger age than normal.

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

OK, so now I'm curious -- why is the "i" in amiable pronounced the way it is, and the "i" in reliable pronounced the way it is? How about admirable versus unstable for the long versus short a? What are the rules there? 

Syllable lesson 6, syllable division between vowels, and lesson 8, words of latin origin.

Vowels that don't make a sound will divide between, syllables that end in a vowel are long. In some words in is long i, but words of Latin origin it will have its Romance language sound of long e as in amiable.  Reliable, long i. All other vowels will have their long sound when dividing between 2 vowels as in truant, meow, casual, cameo. With admirable, almost all 3+ syllable words schwa the ending syllable, there are rules about which syllables schwa that are slightly different if they are Latin origin. (Also covered in my syllables lessons!!) 

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@ElizabethB your links and comments have been super interesting.  My mom was an early (1970s) pioneer....she taught my brother phonics when no one else was.  I have sent her all of the links in this thread. 
 

I do see @square_25 ‘s point about there being so much background knowledge needed and so much is still random, that mostly what makes a good reader is a combination of good phonics training and being read to and reading from an early age.  

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5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

But how are you supposed to know how to split it into syllables ahead of time? I’ve asked this before, and it’s not obvious... yes, a syllable that ends in a vowel is usually long, but with long words you can’t always tell how to split it into syllables unless you already know. And as is, DD8 would now need to know where amiable comes from before she could read it, which is no longer phonics, but background knowledge. (Which is fine, but not much easier than just hearing the word.)

Admirable could have easily had a long i, right? Desirable does, for instance. The base words rhyme and the derived words do not. And the mi syllable ends in a vowel, but it’s a short vowel. 

Thinking about it, you’re right that -able almost always sounds like that in long words, so I retract the example.

Anyway, I’ll stop derailing this thread, but I’m still unconvinced one can tell what a word sounds perfectly by looking at it 😉.  It’s possible I’m wrong, but I’m just not seeing the rules I could use as soon I see the word (as opposed to after I know how to split it into syllables.)

I agree completely.

I have my kids take that test periodically, and until they have been introduced to the word antithesis they get it wrong (an-t/ee/-thesis)...why not...they are very logically splitting after the prefix anti-.  They split collegiate into c/oh/-l/ee/-g/ee/-ate...like deviate, radiate, initiate, humiliate and differentiate, all words they learn before collegiate.  They pronounce opulence with a long o, like open, obedient, opaque.  Clearly that is not playing the odds well - "op" at the beginning of a word is more likely to be pronounced "/ah/p" - but without knowing the word, they have no way of knowing the correct pronunciation for sure.

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The Growing with Grammar company has grammar, spelling,and writing series - not the most challenging, but comparable to what I did in school.  The Critical Thinking Company has some great workbooks - it sounds like those might be a good fit since the 'read a page and answer questions' format is very obvious - open and go, do the next thing.  Reading Detective, Science Detective, Inference Jones, and Red Hot Root Words are all things I've used at different times.  I had not planned to do science this way, but needed to for 'reasons' with one kid and it was pretty good.  They probably have editing and writing, but I didn't do them at those ages so I don't know.  We use them to supplement when I want to work on specific skills, but I think that there may be enough to pull together a lot of a grade of work.  You might also suggest What your third grader needs to know - they can read straight from the book.

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Back to curriculum.  ITA with the post about Growing With Grammar etc.  Their student books are very self-teaching, which, even if the student is not self-teaching, it is easy for a parent to sit with them and go over the lesson. 

RightStart would not be good for this situation, it is too parent intensive.  I really believe the math needs to be totally accessible and easy to implement.  I even have concerns about "just" a textbook.  Try Teaching Textbooks.  It is not the most rigorous, but for a student who might be behind, it could be a good starting point and the teaching is done in the lesson.  

Keep in mind that something that is easy to implement and actually gets done is way better than something that is hard to implement or too challenging to keep the child motivated and then ends up sitting on a shelf. 

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1 hour ago, kristin0713 said:

Back to curriculum.  ITA with the post about Growing With Grammar etc.  Their student books are very self-teaching, which, even if the student is not self-teaching, it is easy for a parent to sit with them and go over the lesson. 

RightStart would not be good for this situation, it is too parent intensive.  I really believe the math needs to be totally accessible and easy to implement.  I even have concerns about "just" a textbook.  Try Teaching Textbooks.  It is not the most rigorous, but for a student who might be behind, it could be a good starting point and the teaching is done in the lesson.  

Keep in mind that something that is easy to implement and actually gets done is way better than something that is hard to implement or too challenging to keep the child motivated and then ends up sitting on a shelf. 

ITA.  My mom was saying to me, 'he (my brother) can just look at the State Standards and see what needs to be taught.'  I'm like, 'Mom, there is no possible way brother can pull that off.'  He will need something very simple that he can feel like he is doing well in order to boost his and nephew's confidence.'

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7 hours ago, square_25 said:

But how are you supposed to know how to split it into syllables ahead of time? I’ve asked this before, and it’s not obvious... yes, a syllable that ends in a vowel is usually long, but with long words you can’t always tell how to split it into syllables unless you already know. And as is, DD8 would now need to know where amiable comes from before she could read it, which is no longer phonics, but background knowledge. (Which is fine, but not much easier than just hearing the word.)

Admirable could have easily had a long i, right? Desirable does, for instance. The base words rhyme and the derived words do not. And the mi syllable ends in a vowel, but it’s a short vowel. 

Thinking about it, you’re right that -able almost always sounds like that in long words, so I retract the example.

Anyway, I’ll stop derailing this thread, but I’m still unconvinced one can tell what a word sounds perfectly by looking at it 😉.  It’s possible I’m wrong, but I’m just not seeing the rules I could use as soon I see the word (as opposed to after I know how to split it into syllables.)

I have syllable division exercises, some you can't tell, but there are patterns that work most of the time, I have exercises for syllables that follow those prevalent patterns.  Then, you read words from Webster which are already arranged by pattern to help you learn the patterns easier than random reading. 

I've had 2nd grade immigrant formerly homeless boys reading 12th grade level words correctly with this, sounding like they have no accent! (Even people who speak English well often have the wrong schwa/accent pattern in some words, Webster helps with that.)

Try it and see, the overview takes 60 minutes with exercises, the video is 15 minutes.

You won't be able to get every word right, but it can improve your accuracy in pronouncing words you have not yet seen.

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