Just venting--Secular Thought Police

[Corraleno]

n/m

Edited August 10, 2020 by Corraleno

[Mrs. Tharp]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

It's crazy the way SEA is being misrepresented here. 🙄  

There are PLENTY of groups, including the Hive, for "mostly secular" homeschoolers who have no problem with curricula that includes religion. I used Life of Fred and my son took multiple classes with Lukeion — I adore Lukeion, we have even traveled with them to Greece, Italy, and Turkey. I recommend Lukeion here all the time. I do not recommend them on SEA, because there is religious content in some of the courses, and I have no problem with the fact that Lukeion does not meet SEA's guidelines.

There ARE people who want their curriculum to be 100% free of any religion — are they not allowed to have their own FB group? Not even ONE freaking group, in a world where Christian homeschoolers are a large majority, with tons of resources and curricula available to them? If an explicitly, 100% secular group doesn't accept recommendations for curricula that are just "a little bit" religious, and recommendations for explicitly Christian companies, then they deserve to be bashed as "intolerant" and "thought police"? 

If a snarky, irreverent, very strictly secular homeschooling group is not your cup of tea, then feel free to unfollow and move on. 

Corraleno, you weren't privy to anyone else's experiences, were you? I tend to take people at their word, including myself. I think we are talking at cross-purposes here. No one, including me, is suggesting that no one is allowed to have something. Everyone is free to walk away from whatever group, conversation, etc., whenever they want to. Religious AND secular extremists are free to go their own way and have all the crazy, arbitrary rules they want to. It is a real positive though, when extreme groups on either side of the spectrum have a statement of faith and/or clear guidelines. If they don't want people to purchase from non-secular sites or have other extreme expectations, they should communicate that up front. I don't argue with religious groups with statements of faith because they make it very clear what they are all about.

[Mrs. Tharp]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

IEW and Rainbow Resource are both explicitly Christian companies that primarily sell Christian homeschooling materials, so I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that they are not recommended in a strictly secular group. It has nothing to do with whether Amazon sells Bibles. The guidelines are really not that difficult to figure out, I never had much trouble understanding them, but apparently some people here find it more of a struggle. 

No, I don't agree. IEW's core products are all secular and Rainbow Resources sells a wide variety of secular materials, including a secular all-in-one they created themselves.

[Mrs. Tharp]

7 minutes ago, Btervet said:

I am a member of SEA and do get a lot out of it. I remember when it formed and was there at the start. But it's silly to pretend its perfect, and its getting worse. I have *no* problem with not allowing recommendations of religious based works. But its not as simple as "Well just go somewhere else." They have already pressured curriculum creators to drop borderline books just so they can be recommended. They have power at this point within the homeschooling world, and the extremes they go to (including bannings for mistakes or questions) have negative consequences. I have no problem saying I love the idea and goal of the group, but it could be *so* much better if it was less extreme. It has had a huge influence on secular homeschoolers far outside the community, and I can't count the number of times I have heard "well x,y,and z isn't *really* secular cause SEA says so" in other forums. 

Yes, I have no problem with the goal. And I've heard about the pressuring too. Not a positive thing.

[Shoeless]

I'm most certainly not misrepresenting the experiences I've had on SEA or my opinion. 

No one has said they "aren't allowed" to have their group or run it however they want.  I understand their rules. I think they are stupidly restrictive and often inconsistent.  I dislike that they are acting as gatekeepers to products for secular homeschoolers and frequently steer people toward the products they profit from.  

I'm a secular homeschooler that doesn't meet the particular definition of "secular" that SEA upholds. They can define themselves however they like, but they aren't the standard bearer for the secular community. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Btervet said:

I am a member of SEA and do get a lot out of it. I remember when it formed and was there at the start. But it's silly to pretend its perfect, and its getting worse. I have *no* problem with not allowing recommendations of religious based works. But its not as simple as "Well just go somewhere else." They have already pressured curriculum creators to drop borderline books just so they can be recommended. They have power at this point within the homeschooling world, and the extremes they go to (including bannings for mistakes or questions) have negative consequences. I have no problem saying I love the idea and goal of the group, but it could be *so* much better if it was less extreme. It has had a huge influence on secular homeschoolers far outside the community, and I can't count the number of times I have heard "well x,y,and z isn't *really* secular cause SEA says so" in other forums. 

I certainly don't think it's perfect, but I do think it fulfills an important need for those who want curriculum that is 100% strictly secular, and I have no problem with them being as strict as they are because they are pretty much the only group that I know of who are at the far end of that spectrum, so there isn't any place else to get that particular perspective. People who want "mostly secular but a little religion is fine" have WTM and plenty of other groups. I agreed with some of the things that people felt were problematic in BYL, and I didn't get the impression that Emily was "forced" to change things against her will, more that she saw the issues when they were called to her attention and changed a few of the books. If she didn't want to change them, she didn't have to — the percentage of homeschoolers who are either religious or "fine with some religion" in their curricula is presumably much larger than the percentage whose standards are as strict as SEAs, so I don't think that "not being 100% secular by SEA's standards" would be ruinous for BYL if she didn't want to change.

[rebcoola]

Yes I find SEA kind of over the top.  Yes they should have some sort of guidlines. 

Our Parent partnership pays for all but 2 books from IEW and lots of others that are banned their.  Rainbow resource is the main place to order curriculum through.  

[Wheres Toto]

I keep going back and checking on SEA because I'm just not seeing the removal of posts or the extreme restrictions that are being talked about here.   Yes, they will lock a post if it's talking about non-secular resources.   They will mention if they don't know if something is secular or not and limit discussion.   They are definitely more extreme in their definition of secular and their restriction of discussing not secular materials.  And I've often rolled my eyes at it.  

But the extreme stuff being talked about here?  I'm not seeing it.  And I am on Facebook multiple times daily since I have my business page there and admin a local homeschool group, plus a variety of other groups I belong to.  

I just did a search on SEA and found three posts in the last few months talking about the Rainbow Resources catalog.  One about how it was a good resources, but watch their designations because they sometimes label things secular that aren't.  Home Science Tools comes up all the time and they sell kits for non-secular science programs.   

I also found a recent post recommending different science curriculums that weren't "theirs" - MEL, Mystery Science, Inquiry in Action and a couple others.     

This is in addition to the stuff in my original post here.  

I used to be pretty active on a different secular homeschool group, long before SEA was founded (or at least long before I knew about it).   They started having more discussions about neutral or religious programs than secular ones.   So it was one more place where you couldn't count on getting secular recommendations.  

[Anne Elliot]

SEA is the only place I know of that I can send homeschool newbies for curriculum recommendations that are guaranteed to be secular. I honestly believe a group has to be that strict to avoid the constant recommendations for things like Easy Peasy or the Good and the Beautiful. "Just ignore the religious parts". No. That's not how it works.

[Mrs. Tharp]

22 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I certainly don't think it's perfect, but I do think it fulfills an important need for those who want curriculum that is 100% strictly secular, and I have no problem with them being as strict as they are because they are pretty much the only group that I know of who are at the far end of that spectrum, so there isn't any place else to get that particular perspective. People who want "mostly secular but a little religion is fine" have WTM and plenty of other groups. I agreed with some of the things that people felt were problematic in BYL, and I didn't get the impression that Emily was "forced" to change things against her will, more that she saw the issues when they were called to her attention and changed a few of the books. If she didn't want to change them, she didn't have to — the percentage of homeschoolers who are either religious or "fine with some religion" in their curricula is presumably much larger than the percentage whose standards are as strict as SEAs, so I don't think that "not being 100% secular by SEA's standards" would be ruinous for BYL if she didn't want to change.

Well, I think it's unfortunate. There's enough polarization going on right now without secular homeschoolers jumping on the bandwagon. Secular purity is just as bad as religious purity. "You're not a real Christian, if you don't believe such-and-such." Now it seems like there's a secular homeschool equivalent to that. That's hardly something to celebrate.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Mrs. Tharp

[Shoeless]

3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Except they don't have that much power, right? If you don't want to be a SEA homeschooler, what exactly are they going to do, take away your badge? 

 

No, but if you are a secular homeschooler that doesn't fit their definition, it adds to the feeling of alienation in the homeschool community. 

[Mrs. Tharp]

48 minutes ago, Btervet said:

I am a member of SEA and do get a lot out of it. I remember when it formed and was there at the start. But it's silly to pretend its perfect, and its getting worse. I have *no* problem with not allowing recommendations of religious based works. But its not as simple as "Well just go somewhere else." They have already pressured curriculum creators to drop borderline books just so they can be recommended. They have power at this point within the homeschooling world, and the extremes they go to (including bannings for mistakes or questions) have negative consequences. I have no problem saying I love the idea and goal of the group, but it could be *so* much better if it was less extreme. It has had a huge influence on secular homeschoolers far outside the community, and I can't count the number of times I have heard "well x,y,and z isn't *really* secular cause SEA says so" in other forums. 

Well Btervet has said that they have a lot of influence on secular homeschoolers now, which I believe. They have influence in the same way the same extremely conservative groups do in that you might not agree with them, but you have to take them into account. And also what MissLemon said. The whole thing has made me question whether I can even describe myself as secular, which is insane. The extremism distorts conversation on the subject.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Mrs. Tharp
punctutation

[Mrs. Tharp]

You're in New York right? It's the same in Seattle. There are such a high volume of secular homeschoolers in the local groups that there isn't a need to branch out much. I stumbled across them by accident, realized that they were getting a high volume of newbies, and hung around to help out. But I see no reason to doubt her experience.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Mrs. Tharp

[Mrs. Tharp]

36 minutes ago, square_25 said:

My solution to groups I didn't like was to start groups of my own 😉 . It's quite a time suck, though. 

Yes, I've run local groups before and am the admin for our local FB homeschoolers group. It does take time!

[Mrs. Tharp]

Patty Joanna, I agree with your overall point, except that our local parent partnership program will purchase from sites like Rainbow Resources or Memoria Press, as long as the actual materials are secular. Maybe this varies by state.

[Corraleno]

15 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I am, yeah. And yeah, there are plenty of local secular homeschoolers 🙂 . 

I have absolutely seen issues with this kind of intolerance in FB groups, so I'm not doubting your experience or hers. It does usually seem to stem from frazzled mods trying to keep the culture the way they want it, though. With volunteer work, sometimes you get what you pay for... 

I think if you wandered over to the FB group and read the threads that are on there right now, you'd be very puzzled by the way it's being described here. Some people are making it sound like it's bunch of fascist atheists deleting posts and admonishing (or banning) people left and right, when in reality it's just people posting pics of their kids and their homeschooling rooms, video of a parrot learning phonics, the usual "what's this bug?" questions, video of a chick hatching, ideas for projects, questions about discussing reproduction with young children (with plenty of funny/embarassing stories), questions about naming your homeschool (also with funny answers), etc. Also people posting about how helpful the group is, "ya'll are my people!" etc. — it's actually a very friendly and welcoming group, and people have been extremely patient with all the new crisis schoolers. It definitely leans left, so there have been a lot of posts recently asking about books and history curricula that center POC, or literature by nonwhite authors, American history from a Native perspective, and things like that. There are usually a lot of links to cool science videos or geography resources or whatever. The fact that they have a very strict definition of "secular" is a pretty small part of the discussion there — most of it is just normal homeschool stuff. 

[Mrs. Tharp]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think if you wandered over to the FB group and read the threads that are on there right now, you'd be very puzzled by the way it's being described here. Some people are making it sound like it's bunch of fascist atheists deleting posts and admonishing (or banning) people left and right, when in reality it's just people posting pics of their kids and their homeschooling rooms, video of a parrot learning phonics, the usual "what's this bug?" questions, video of a chick hatching, ideas for projects, questions about discussing reproduction with young children (with plenty of funny/embarassing stories), questions about naming your homeschool (also with funny answers), etc. Also people posting about how helpful the group is, "ya'll are my people!" etc. — it's actually a very friendly and welcoming group, and people have been extremely patient with all the new crisis schoolers. It definitely leans left, so there have been a lot of posts recently asking about books and history curricula that center POC, or literature by nonwhite authors, American history from a Native perspective, and things like that. There are usually a lot of links to cool science videos or geography resources or whatever. The fact that they have a very strict definition of "secular" is a pretty small part of the discussion there — most of it is just normal homeschool stuff. 

Well there's that, and then there's all the rest too. That's the thing.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Mrs. Tharp

[theelfqueen]

I don't really purchase curriculum, we're homebrewing homeschoolers mostly. (I did buy the teachers guide and map book for SWBs History of the Ancient World last year ... because we ditched our original plan for the year in social science and it was quick. I didnt use it as designed but it was useful. )  ...  And in my state there are zero funds available to anyone, so I haven't had to review curriculum this way. So, I've never been there. I just meant that it seems overly complicated to rule out sellers because they also sell non-secular materials.

[TomK]

10 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

 My point is, though, that in this group, people are fleeing one kind of restrictive mindset  and embracing another that is equally restrictive. 

That just seems to be human nature, though.

There does seem to be a tendency for people leaving (fleeing?) one type of restriction to find reasons to create those same kinds of restrictions at the opposite end of the spectrum. There may or may not be a perceived need for it, but it happens all too often. For some, it's a case of "turnabout is fair play." For others, they can rationalize it until they're blue in the face. It doesn't matter, it just is.

I can't speak on this particular group because I don't know it--I'm actually in zero Facebook homeschooling groups, at the moment--but like someone else said above, it does seem telling that everyone knew which group this was just from the description.

[Carrie12345]

Just wanted to say that I find SEA a little bit frustrating too, but I stay to see what new things get released/discussed.

I’m a straight up atheist and always looking to assess the degree of secularity.  If it passes their “test”, I know I don’t have to dig deeper on that aspect of a particular title. But I’m personally open to other ideas and adaptations from otherwise quality resources, so I don’t use SEA as my main research spot, and I definitely can’t discuss my household’s homeschooling there, which is almost funny.  

There are other secular FB groups that are more open to discussion, but they have their drawbacks, too. Not everyone spots or communicates all of the religious aspects or different types of religious influence within a program when sharing. Over the years, I’ve definitely paid good money for materials someone said they adapted easily, only to sit down to plan and find something completely useless to me.

Too strict: bad
Too loose: bad

[maize]

8 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

Patty Joanna, I agree with your overall point, except that our local parent partnership program will purchase from sites like Rainbow Resources or Memoria Press, as long as the actual materials are secular. Maybe this varies by state.

Ours does this too. In fact Rainbow Resource is a vendor for all of the flexible public home education programs I am familiar with. Purchases of non-religious materials from primarily religions publishers are also acceptable.

[HeartString]

I left the SEA group because it was just viscous and quarrelsome.  I never got any solid recommendations from there because it was all just people bickering over what counted as secular.  I asked for middle school science recommendations and got nothing but a thread full of arguing.  Nothing useful at all.  I had been so excited to have a place to talk about secular curriculum, I was seriously disappointed.  

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Mrs. Tharp said:

I stumbled across them by accident, realized that they were getting a high volume of newbies 

If they are being stricter than usual right now, this could be one of the reasons - they are slammed and don't have time to moderate discussions on what 'secular' means. 

[Carrie12345]

40 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Any examples? I'd love to know what to avoid.

I can’t remember the title of the one that stung the most, except that it was high school writing.  It was through IEW, and I had adapted or fully used multiple things from them before, knowing some titles were more religious than others. Someone said they had adapted it, but 90+% was working off of samples that were extremely religious with the assignment including the main topic. I was putting in more work trying to spin it than dd was on the actual program.

[KungFuPanda]

You have to admit that it's an excellent business model.  If you sell a curriculum and moderate a forum that demonizes most of the competition you're probably going to increase sales.  

[Carol in Cal.]

15 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

You have to admit that it's an excellent business model.  If you sell a curriculum and moderate a forum that demonizes most of the competition you're probably going to increase sales.  

Excellent but despicable.  Kind of reminds me of Ham.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

You have to admit that it's an excellent business model.  If you sell a curriculum and moderate a forum that demonizes most of the competition you're probably going to increase sales.  

As Where's Toto mentioned upthread, other science curricula are recommended there all the time. There's no ban on discussing or recommending "competing" science curricula, just a requirement that it be 100% secular. I've seen criticism of RSO itself in the FB group, and that was not shut down. SEA has an online store that sells lots of curricula, not just RSO.

[maize]

14 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

As Where's Toto mentioned upthread, other science curricula are recommended there all the time. There's no ban on discussing or recommending "competing" science curricula, just a requirement that it be 100% secular. I've seen criticism of RSO itself in the FB group, and that was not shut down. SEA has an online store that sells lots of curricula, not just RSO.

Link please?

I belong to the Facebook group though I'm not really active on it, I didn't know about the store.

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Link please?

I belong to the Facebook group though I'm not really active on it, I didn't know about the store.

https://seculareclecticacademic.com

 

[Corraleno]

21 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I also give a lot of side-eye to that author because surprise! The only materials deemed truly secular and recommended are the ones she's written or published through her company.  

This is really untrue. Blair Lee wrote REAL Science Odyssey, which is published by Pandia Press. She does not own Pandia Press, and she has not written curriculum for other subjects, so she has no vested interest in what curriculum is recommended for English or history or math or any other subject, and even for science SEA allows plenty of discussion of other secular science materials. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sk8ermaiden]

Wait, you were talking about SEA? SEA allows almost all of those things. 😵 The levels of Writeshop that have been "secularized" are perfectly allowed to be recommended. And I have never, ever seen someone not be allowed to recommend something because it "thanked God" in the acknowledgements. I can find dozens of people talking about buying from RR, but there are a lot of warnings that they mislabel things as secular that aren't. Which is true. Mr Q, SOTW, and BYL are recommended all the time with caveats that some of the levels of the first two are not secular. Also to the point that someone else mentioned, the study of religion by itself and religion in history is discussed all the time. I have seen one or two people say they're refusing to teach their kid anything about religion, but they are a tiny minority. 

I can go anywhere on the internet, including here, and get a lot of recommendations for curriculua written from a religious point of view. But SEA is the ONLY place I can ask and be guaranteed that the programs mentioned will be secular. That matters to me. 

Whoever you messaged with...what they are saying is not based in the reality of the group. That not how it actually works and I'm sorry they told you that.

In the thread where I asked for middle school science ideas, a dozen ideas were given to me. It's not like they're selling one curriculum. 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Sk8ermaiden

[Shoeless]

You are correct; I double checked and Kate (forgot her last name) owns Pandia Press. That was my mistake. I thought it was co-founded with Blair.

I have asked specifically for clarification on why a given product by a competitor doesn't meet the SEA definition of secular and been told, by Blair, that it just isn't, topic is closed. I wasn't trolling, I really wanted to know and I got blown off by several mods and Blair, and told it wasn't up for debate.

 

 

[Wheres Toto]

46 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

You are correct; I double checked and Kate (forgot her last name) owns Pandia Press. That was my mistake. I thought it was co-founded with Blair.

I have asked specifically for clarification on why a given product by a competitor doesn't meet the SEA definition of secular and been told, by Blair, that it just isn't, topic is closed. I wasn't trolling, I really wanted to know and I got blown off by several mods and Blair, and told it wasn't up for debate.

 

 

What product were you asking about?

[Shoeless]

28 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

What product were you asking about?

 

This happened a couple of years ago, but I asked about Bookshark and was told "Not secular". I was confused by this because the program is basically a collection of books written by other people, accompanied by a schedule. It's all these Newberry and Caldecott award books that you find sprinkled through so many programs.  So I was kind of like "Hey, I don't get it. If these books are ok for this program, why aren't they ok in this program? What am I missing?" All I got back is "Bookshark isn't secular and we won't recommend it or allow it to be discussed". I eventually got a response from one moderator who said that she really didn't know why it wasn't recommended, other than Sonlight owns Bookshark, so that is probably the reason, but if I need truly secular resources, I should use RSO and the other Pandia Press products.  

Maybe facebook isn't a great place for a nuanced discussion about Sonlight vs Bookshark, (or anything, really). I would have appreciated someone willing to have that conversation, though, especially if you are representing yourself to be an authority and educator on secular homeschool resources.  *MY* experience with SEA is that it's very polarized and knee-jerk in responding to questions. This book is good, this book is bad, case closed.  The times I've tried to have a nuanced conversation, I get shouted down for trolling, or told that we can't have those conversations because newbies could be confused and led astray. 

 

 

[Shoeless]

8 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

It's because the science is considered "neutral" because it doesn't cover evolution. By SEA's definition, almost all public school science curricula wouldn't be considered secular because evolution isn't taught until higher grades. 

Which brings me back to an earlier point: the lower levels of the RSO products do not teach evolution, (at least, they did not as of a few years ago). The explanation I received from a moderator was that evolution was too big a topic for early grades, but Blair's books are "safe" because she believes in evolution, so even though they don't discuss it, it's ok. So technically, the low levels of RSO didn't meet their own definition. 

I don't have time right now to download samples and the TOC for each of the science books to see if evolution now discussed. But in level 1 of Life and Earth & Space, it wasn't there a few years ago.   

[katilac]

5 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

You have to admit that it's an excellent business model.  If you sell a curriculum and moderate a forum that demonizes most of the competition you're probably going to increase sales.  

You won't have anyone on your site if you don't offer something of value. I haven't been on SEA in years myself, but I don't think 19,000 people are all being completely sucked in by someone who is only there to demonize the competition. 

Also, I am unreasonably amused at the notion of a secular site 'demonizing' the competition 😄

 

10 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 Maybe facebook isn't a great place for a nuanced discussion about Sonlight vs Bookshark, (or anything, really).  

It absolutely isn't. It doesn't sound like SEA has a place that is good for those nuanced discussion, and that's unfortunate but also their choice. We are some lucky posters to have this site available to discuss pretty much anything, in as much excruciating detail as we like, lol. 

[Wheres Toto]

Neutral science isn't just about evolution though.  It avoids any discussion of change in species over time, any discussion of processes that may take more than a few thousand years whether that's in geology or astronomy or biology.  I've had age of earth/evolution discussions come up in Elementary levels of Oceanography, Chemistry, Geology (obviously), Biology (obviously), and Physics but MS/HS Biology is the only class i have that explicitly teaches evolution.   

[Wheres Toto]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I dunno, when I was doing my virus project with DD8, evolution came up extremely naturally. Microbes evolve quickly, after all. Does one really never talk about things like antibiotic resistance with little kids?? 

Actually that's true, it did come up with the younger kids.  But the only class I have an actual unit on Evolution is my Middle/High School Biology.  It does come up occasionally in other classes, just in the course of discussion.   

[maize]

40 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I dunno, when I was doing my virus project with DD8, evolution came up extremely naturally. Microbes evolve quickly, after all. Does one really never talk about things like antibiotic resistance with little kids?? 

Curricula designed to teach science to elementary students tend to be quite limited in scope.

What comes up in discussion with bright and interested kids is another matter entirely. My clan are all dinosaur obsessed so evolution is a pretty common topic of discussion.

Edited August 10, 2020 by maize

[Wheres Toto]

13 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I guess there's a reason I don't have one of those curricula, lol. I think we used the book you found us for our virus project, as a matter of fact... 

Wasn't that the Pandia Press free Pandemic unit?

I learned age of earth and change over time/evolution in Elementary School and so did my oldest daughter.    Looking at NJ Science Standards, inherited traits and change over time in response to the environment are in the Grade 3 standards which includes dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures changing through time, History of Planet Earth is in the Grade 6 standards, Evolution is explicitly mentioned in the Grade 6 standards.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Where's Toto?

[Corraleno]

49 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

This happened a couple of years ago, but I asked about Bookshark and was told "Not secular". I was confused by this because the program is basically a collection of books written by other people, accompanied by a schedule. It's all these Newberry and Caldecott award books that you find sprinkled through so many programs.  So I was kind of like "Hey, I don't get it. If these books are ok for this program, why aren't they ok in this program? What am I missing?" All I got back is "Bookshark isn't secular and we won't recommend it or allow it to be discussed". I eventually got a response from one moderator who said that she really didn't know why it wasn't recommended, other than Sonlight owns Bookshark, so that is probably the reason, but if I need truly secular resources, I should use RSO and the other Pandia Press products.  

Maybe facebook isn't a great place for a nuanced discussion about Sonlight vs Bookshark, (or anything, really). I would have appreciated someone willing to have that conversation, though, especially if you are representing yourself to be an authority and educator on secular homeschool resources.  *MY* experience with SEA is that it's very polarized and knee-jerk in responding to questions. This book is good, this book is bad, case closed.  The times I've tried to have a nuanced conversation, I get shouted down for trolling, or told that we can't have those conversations because newbies could be confused and led astray. 

 

 

It's not just a "lack of evolution" in Bookshark that is the issue. Bookshark uses RS4K for science, which was written by a Creationist. The author claims it is "neutral," but has also stated (to a Christian audience) that her goal is to gradually bring people around to the Creationist viewpoint. We've had long conversations in the past, right here in the Hive, about Keller and her agenda. RS4K includes subtle references to creation, and avoids any mention of the age of the Earth or the origin of the universe. REAL Science Odyssey's Earth and Astronomy units discuss the Big Bang theory, the age of the Earth, the geological timeline, etc., beginning in 1st grade.

[maize]

Looking at the Next Generation science standards (used by many states) evolutionary change doesn't show up until grades 6-8, although related topics of diversity and environmental fitness and competition show up earlier.

https://www.nextgenscience.org/search-standards?keys=Evolution&tid_3[]=96

[maize]

The Big Bang isn't mentioned in the standards until high school:

https://www.nextgenscience.org/search-standards?keys=Big+bang&tid_3[]=94

[Corraleno]

31 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That's really odd, honestly. We don't talk about dinosaurs now? We don't talk about microbe evolution? What IS in elementary school science, anyway? 

Not a lot. 😞  There is a lot of political lobbying to keep anything that would contradict Creationism out of schools — not to mention various lawsuits demanding that Creationism be taught in public schools. My son spent a year in a sort of magnet public school where a group of parents had lobbied hard to prevent teachers from using "the E word," and the principal ordered teachers to only ever use the word "adaptation," never evolution. 

[maize]

Similarly, I can't find a reference in the standards to the age of the earth before middle school and high school grades (I tried several different search terms)

https://www.nextgenscience.org/search-standards?keys=Years&tid_3[]=94

Edited August 11, 2020 by maize

[maize]

40 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That's really odd, honestly. We don't talk about dinosaurs now? We don't talk about microbe evolution? What IS in elementary school science, anyway? 

One of my kids attended a local school for fifth grade. I remember they had a science unit on basic mendelian genetics and one on weather.

And maybe they did insects? Her teacher brought chocolate covered grasshoppers for them to try but I don't know if that was for science or for some other reason--could have been a literature or social studies tie-in.

[chiguirre]

58 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I dunno, when I was doing my virus project with DD8, evolution came up extremely naturally. Microbes evolve quickly, after all. Does one really never talk about things like antibiotic resistance with little kids?? 

The normies don't talk about antibiotic resistance with their kids. They might not have even heard about it themselves unless some celebrity died from a multiresistant infection and People picked it up and the checkout line was long.

(We're weirdos. I doesn't feel like that because there are so many of us and the bubble is spacious, but we are not normal.)

[Mrs. Tharp]

57 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Which brings me back to an earlier point: the lower levels of the RSO products do not teach evolution, (at least, they did not as of a few years ago). The explanation I received from a moderator was that evolution was too big a topic for early grades, but Blair's books are "safe" because she believes in evolution, so even though they don't discuss it, it's ok. So technically, the low levels of RSO didn't meet their own definition. 

I don't have time right now to download samples and the TOC for each of the science books to see if evolution now discussed. But in level 1 of Life and Earth & Space, it wasn't there a few years ago.   

So, an evolution free curriculum by a secular author is "safe" whereas an evolution free curriculum by a Christian author is presumably "unsafe". So they really do evaluate at least partially on the curriculum creator's personal beliefs. The line of thinking you describe explains pretty much everything I experienced. No wonder they come across as so arbitrary, they pretty much are. It's a pity they even felt like they had to rationalize that, but with the stance they are taking, I guess they have to. Pandia Press hasn't announced revisions to those science curriculum that I've heard; I bet Earth & Space is still the same.

[Shoeless]

32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's not just a "lack of evolution" in Bookshark that is the issue. Bookshark uses RS4K for science, which was written by a Creationist. The author claims it is "neutral," but has also stated (to a Christian audience) that her goal is to gradually bring people around to the Creationist viewpoint. We've had long conversations in the past, right here in the Hive, about Keller and her agenda. RS4K includes subtle references to creation, and avoids any mention of the age of the Earth or the origin of the universe. REAL Science Odyssey's Earth and Astronomy units discuss the Big Bang theory, the age of the Earth, the geological timeline, etc., beginning in 1st grade.

Earth and Astronomy was not out at the time of my conversations with the SEA peeps. At that time, there was nothing for the younger grades that discussed evolution or age of the earth. There was Life and Earth & Space level 1.  And none of that info about RSK4 was given why I asked. I was told "We will not discuss this", and that was the end. I wasn't on WTM back then, either. 

I am not lying about my experiences. I am also not going to search for 3 year old posts on SEA to prove I am not misrepresenting the conversation. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's not just a "lack of evolution" in Bookshark that is the issue. Bookshark uses RS4K for science, which was written by a Creationist. The author claims it is "neutral," but has also stated (to a Christian audience) that her goal is to gradually bring people around to the Creationist viewpoint. We've had long conversations in the past, right here in the Hive, about Keller and her agenda. RS4K includes subtle references to creation, and avoids any mention of the age of the Earth or the origin of the universe. REAL Science Odyssey's Earth and Astronomy units discuss the Big Bang theory, the age of the Earth, the geological timeline, etc., beginning in 1st 

 

[BusyMom5]

Since we are discussing,  why is Clear Water Press- Cover Story and One Year Adventure Novel not secular?