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Street harassment wwyd


Innisfree
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PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE

Dd18 is being targeted by a fluctuating group of teen and tween boys when she goes out for walks in the neighborhood. We don't know their identities. They are vulgar and persistent, circling around and returning for another round of catcalls sometimes, but they're on bikes and she's on foot, so they move out of range quickly.

She's furious and increasingly unnerved. I called the non-emergency police line; the officer said the boys were in a legal gray area, because they haven't touched dd or threatened her. He did offer to drive through the neighborhood, or talk to them if we could identify them, but so far we can't. He also said dd could take photos or videos, but cautioned that the situation could escalate.

Dd is getting to be genuinely frightened of them, and doesn't want to anger them by taking photos or getting them in trouble. She feels vulnerable, and she doesn't feel safe confronting them. But she doesn't want to have to walk with her sister or me, because neither of us is as fast as she is. Her exercise is important to her, and they're preventing it.

Wwyd?

If we can identify them, what would be the best way to get this behavior to stop, without increasing any risk to dd? Try to appeal to their better natures? Have the police stop by and chat with their families?I

AGAIN, PLEASE, DON'T QUOTE

 

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Can she walk a different route? I remember being taught to take varied routes at varied times of day to avoid being a target back in the 1990s when I ran cross country. I also talk with my kids about staying on roads with lots of foot traffic and possibly car traffic when walking alone.

It sucks. I remember some high school kids who would target me and my best friend on our bikes when we were in elementary and I remember gardeners who would routinely catcall. But I don't remember feeling unsafe, maybe because I knew enough people that I always knew a house within a block I would go to.

So sorry for you dd.

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I would follow at a safe distance or accompany her for at least a week. I also agree with the suggestion to practice some "street smart" skills including self-defense techniques. As you observe her, is she walking with her head down? Does she project self-assurance? If something were to occur, does she have anything with which to defend herself? Keys, pepper spray, etc? Does she know how to target/attack weak areas on the body? Would she do it, reflexively, if necessary? Talking to these people is unlikely to do anything good. Ignoring them and adopting a RBF - along with basic self-defense tactics may help tho.

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Just now, mathnerd said:

I would follow her at a distance and video those kids myself and then hand over the video to the police office. Maybe video for a couple of days to get more identifying information ...

One concern she has is that if she gets them in trouble, they'll be angry, and the situation will escalate. Any thoughts on that?

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I'm so sorry.  I just hate that.  I wonder if she stopped going there for a couple weeks, maybe they'd go someplace else and forget about her.   I also agree that changing her route from day to day, at least for awhile, is a good idea.  That's always recommended for a woman walking alone.  I'd definitely be following at a safe distance for awhile too, maybe in my car so I can be fast if I need to.  And in my car, I could follow them home and see where they lived.  I'd do any video-taping myself so that my dd wouldn't have to.  

 

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Okay, I'll definitely follow in the car for a while, and be ready to do my own videos.

We were away for a week, but as soon as they saw her again, it started again.

I have suggested she avoid the streets where she's seen them, but that limits her to a very small area.

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t think self-defense is likely to work well against a whole group of guys. 

Agreed. That's part of the problem.

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34 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Yes, we've suggested a new neighborhood. She's refusing that atm. The idea that she can't walk safely in her own neighborhood is just making her furious, and that may not be helping with problem solving.

She has a right to be furious.  It sucks!  And she shouldn't have to deal with it.  And yet, as you said, her anger doesn't help with problem solving.  As much as she wants to, she can't change them.  She can only change what she does.  And that may mean going somewhere else, walking with someone (either walking or following in a car), or finding some other form of exercise in the short term.  That is the reality of the situation.  

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2 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

She has a right to be furious.  It sucks!  And she shouldn't have to deal with it.  And yet, as you said, her anger doesn't help with problem solving.  As much as she wants to, she can't change them.  She can only change what she does.  And that may mean going somewhere else, walking with someone (either walking or following in a car), or finding some other form of exercise in the short term.  That is the reality of the situation.  

Yes, this sums it up. Thank you. I've been wishing there was a way to change the boys' behavior, and that may not be realistic.

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Does she carry a phone with her while she is walking?  Would her simply talking to someone on the phone (or even if they think she is talking to someone on the phone) be a deterrent?  

I would drive around the neighborhood while she is out on her walk to get an idea of how many boys there are and to see if I could get some information to identify them.  Is there a place they seem to be coming from or going to?  Do you observe this behavior toward other pedestrians? 

I would also encourage her to make note, as much as possible, regarding color and style of bicycles, which may help in identifying them.  

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Just now, Bootsie said:

Does she carry a phone with her while she is walking? 

Yes. I'll suggest she chat with me as she walks, especially if I'm in the car nearby.

We did spot one she thought was part of the group, but he's very young: maybe 12 at the most? Some others, she thinks, are her age or older: so adults, or nearly. But I did get a look at the young boy's bike, and I've been trying to see if I can identify his house. I'm not sure if approaching his family would do any good or not.

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Make as many fliers as you can for the homes in the neighborhood, and businesses, too, if there are any.   You could start with your first paragraph.  Maybe it's time to start a formal blockwatch group to encourage people to look out for each other.  And it might also send a signal to these boys to change their behavior or look forward to being identified.

Does your daughter walk at the same time everyday?  Maybe include a specific day/time/meeting place on the flier to have a neighborhood walk...get the pink hat ladies to take to the streets.  

This reminds me of something that happened to my mom.  She was gardening in our front yard and a group of boys in this age group were yelling things to her, too.  When one of them yelled "Do you want to f_ _ _ ?"  my mom stood up and yelled, "Sure, come on over!"  and she said they couldn't run away fast enough.  (I'm not suggesting that your daughter should do anything like this!  But it just reminds me of how awful some boys can be when they're in a group.)

 

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2 hours ago, Pen said:

It could escalate no matter what happens .  

Having a video could allow the situation to be reviewed and analyzed.  If anything did happen it could help with identifying the boys. 

I agree. If I were the parent of any of those boys, I would really want to know that this is happening (I cannot believe tweens are behaving like this!).

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I would consider driving by as she’s walking and seeing if you can get photo or video.  A big dog would be fabulous if only there was one available.  Are there any fitness or walking groups around?  It’s ridiculous that she can’t walk her own neighbourhood without feeling threatened or harassed.   I’m sorry.  Being old and fat actually has its advantages where you finally feel safe to walk.  

Edited by Ausmumof3
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I don't know all the kids in my neighborhood, but I'd feel pretty safe approaching a group of tween and teen boys (me, not my dd) and reading them the riot act. By which I mean that I would ask, does your mama know about this? Do you want her to know? Southern boys are all big stuff until you bring their mama into the conversation 😄

Now, we're in the suburbs, not the city, so I'd be pretty sure they were all kids from our neighborhood. It's a pain to get around in the burbs. If there were real troublemakers around, or if they had ever done more than catcall, we'd have likely heard about it. And there's generally people outside, help wouldn't be too far away if they decided they were tough guys. 

If I didn't feel safe doing that, I'd simply walk around and start asking people if they knew any of the boys who ride around together on bikes. I can't imagine no one's going to know who they are. Then you can either have a talk with their parents or let the police have a talk with them.     

 

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6 minutes ago, WendyAndMilo said:

The OP said that most of the boys were adults (or nearly adults).  There was only one that looked younger.  I probably wouldn't take it on myself to confront a group of adults, even though I have more defensive/offensive training than most women.

Well, I wouldn't do it if I thought there was a big chance I would be putting defensive training to use, lol. I just feel pretty confident the kids around here would back down if approached with mom threats, and that there are plenty of neighbors around if things go south. 

I know you said adults or nearly adults, but it's hard for me to view teens riding around the neighborhood on bikes as adults. My thoughts are based on my particular neighborhood, though. Like I said, if I were worried about confronting them, I'd ask around instead and get their names. If they're in the neighborhood, somebody has to know them. 

I would also advise her dd to listen very carefully and make sure she's not missing any threats. 

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So, they're doing this every single time? Is she going for walks at the same regular time, or is someone noticing when she goes? I would start by trying to vary her schedule and see. Do they know where she lives? If they do it literally almost any time she leaves the house for exercise, surely that is at least harassment or stalking? Start keeping written notes, dates, times, number of a$$holes. I'd be tempted to call the non-emergency police number every time too, taking down the officer's name, let them feel how frequent and harassing it is!

I would be inclined to send her father in the car at a distance, and for him to film then follow the ring leader(s) home if possible. She needs witnesses and the police need identifying information.

They do this because they feel powerful, because they know they can intimidate her, with - they think - impunity. 

I'm so sorry, I'm furious on her behalf. How effing dare they. 

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4 hours ago, WendyAndMilo said:

The OP said that most of the boys were adults (or nearly adults).  There was only one that looked younger.  I probably wouldn't take it on myself to confront a group of adults, even though I have more defensive/offensive training than most women.

It's a mixed age group, dd says. Ringleaders are older, some are younger. 

3 hours ago, LMD said:

So, they're doing this every single time? Is she going for walks at the same regular time, or is someone noticing when she goes?

Not every single time, no. It's just that they tend to be out in the late afternoon or evening, like she is, and when they spot her, it starts.

We've talked about having her walk at other times. She does vary it, to a degree, but it's blazingly hot and humid earlier, and she's not eager to get up early in the morning. This is another example of her being mad enough that she isn't willing to concede her preferences and routine. She feels like she shouldn't have to. But again, that isn't helping with problem solving.

The only big dog we have nearby is quite elderly and slow. And-- dd is terribly embarrassed by all this. She doesn't want to let people know.

Would posting a video even be legal, especially if some of the kids are really still kids?

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Can she call the police as soon as she sees them, and give them her location? 

Is sh walking in an area where there would be witnesses, if she started recording and they escalated? I'd livestream, rather than record, so that it is instantly available and they can't grab the phone and erase its. 

But really, I'd call the police. Have 911 ready. Call it. 

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If she really must walk around the neighborhood, I think her father should walk with her.  I understand she's furious, rightly so, but her safety is more important than her fury.  If she is not willing to walk with him, join a gym or find another place to walk.  It stinks, definitely, but we don't all live in Mayberry neighborhoods, and you have to do what you have to do to maintain safety.  

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21 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

we don't all live in Mayberry neighborhoods, and you have to do what you have to do to maintain safety.  

Before this, I'd have said this was as safe as a neighborhood could get. No place is completely safe, though.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. We'll talk and see what we can figure out.

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After thinking more...  I agree with others that since this is happening regularly and some are even adults, police should be involved.  Maybe police need to add that street to their regular beat for awhile.  And, I'd get other neighbors involved.  Do you know anyone living on the actual streets where your dd is walking, where this is occurring?  Can they be outside during the times your dd is passing?  (Are the streets otherwise pretty deserted when your dd is walking?)  Or even if you don't know anyone there, if it's a neighborhood where people will respond, perhaps you can get them involved anyway and they can work together with the police.  For example, if something like this was happening in my neighborhood, I'd be happy to bring a chair outside and sit with my book from 5 to 6 (or whenever your dd is taking a walk) every day for awhile, along with other neighbors, as a first step of trying to beat this down.  Just a thought.

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26 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

There are body cameras under $50 so record with that unobtrusively.

This is a fantastic idea, thank you. I just ordered her one which gets good reviews. Night vision, good audio quality and all.

Edited by Innisfree
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As a mom, that college girl in Brooklyn, IA who got murdered while out for a jog last year was in the safest neighborhood ever too.  I don't think she should be out walking alone, no matter how angry it makes her that it shouldn't be that way. It is that way.  Go with a friend.  Get a sibling a scooter or bike to keep up with her.  Get a treadmill.  Something safer.  You don't hear much about women being harassed on the walking track at the Y.

As someone who used to exercise alone outside when I was her age, I'd call 911 every time it happened until it stopped.  Sometimes being the pain in the butt will make an officer come out and scare the crap out of those boys.  It doesn't mean it won't escalate the situation and make it worse, but something would change.

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Many (hugs)

People like these harassers make me sick.

I hate that the police won't do anything.  This goes to prove that police don't prevent crime.  They literally told you there's nothing they will do until a crime has already happened.  Being the victim of a crime has long-lasting effects and they have a chance to do something before there's a crime!

They should be loaning your dd a bodycam or they should be sending an undercover female cop on a walk in the same area as long as it takes for the jerks to show up.  They should send a cop in their own car to catch these jerks and act like it's a case of an off duty cop happening upon the scene so that your dd is left out of it.

More (hugs)

 

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1 hour ago, Katy said:

As a mom, that college girl in Brooklyn, IA who got murdered while out for a jog last year was in the safest neighborhood ever too.  I don't think she should be out walking alone, no matter how angry it makes her that it shouldn't be that way. It is that way.  Go with a friend.  Get a sibling a scooter or bike to keep up with her.  Get a treadmill.  Something safer.  You don't hear much about women being harassed on the walking track at the Y.

As someone who used to exercise alone outside when I was her age, I'd call 911 every time it happened until it stopped.  Sometimes being the pain in the butt will make an officer come out and scare the crap out of those boys.  It doesn't mean it won't escalate the situation and make it worse, but something would change.

My dd (20's) has to walk two blocks alone to catch her bus, often in the dark.  But, she's in an inner-city neighborhood, and even though there are sometimes weirdos around, there are always other people around too, and lots of police cars strolling up and down the streets at all hours.  Sometimes the quieter neighborhood streets can feel erroneously safe.

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I am sorry your daughter is dealing with this. I would not let my daughter walk alone, but I would hate it. My Dd17 has done self-defense classes, including pen defense. She is a big girl, as tall as an average man. She is strong and does martial arts competitively. She has spatial awareness and has good reaction time. And I still wouldn't want her in that situation.

I think the body cam with a car following her would be a place to start resolving the situation.

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I grew up in San Francisco, and was never allowed to go out by myself except to walk to and from the bus stop to go to school.  I was not allowed to take the bus on weekends.  So I was at our house on weekends unless we went out as a family, which we did, to church, or to go shopping.  I felt like I was imprisoned for something I did not do.

So when DD was little, I committed myself to the idea that I was going to affirmatively equalize her life.  If there was something that boys would be allowed to do because it was reasonably safe for them, I provided some kind of support of scaffolding so that she could do it, too.  And I did not make it like, ‘You can’t go unless we can go with you.”  It was more like “You can go, let’s pick a time together.”  I encourage you To consider this course of action and way of looking at it.  Unfortunately your DD is at an age where she is both likely to be targeted and appearing to be vulnerable.  Learning how to strut confidently and be projecting strength is a very good idea, but also with a gang like that that is already crossing the harassment line together, they can cross the next line into physical harassment with considerable impunity, and no matter what she does, they may do so.  

If I were you, I would consider myself on call to accompany in a car with a car cam or at least cell phone camera handy.  And in parallel I would be organizing people to be out in front at certain hours for general safety, through out the neighborhood.  I’d call it the Front Porch Brigade or something like that.  I would broaden the effort to benefit other vulnerable walkers—girls, yes, but also the elderly.  There is a ‘thing’ now, really despicable, where someone approaches an old man on the sidewalk in a friendly way, and then suddenly punches him, one time, usually knocking him down.  There is even a name for it (I forget what) and people who do it sometimes film the old guy for humorous entertainment.  Stuff like this is hard to prevent without a full on community effort.  Also, I’d have man patrols out walking at these times of the day, kind of randomly.  The alternative to the juvenile jerk patrols that are out now.

The risk to this course of action is that instead of taking things down a level, they might make your DD more of a target when she is alone.  I would not count on this making it safe for her to be alone ever again, sad to say, but also I don't think she is safe now, and although it is wrong I think she needs specific and determined protection going forward.  Only the community can make this a safe community, and to do so , they need to be out there, visible and protective.  That is what REAL grown ups do.

Also, I’d consider asking for increased police patrolling, and for citations for failing to socially distance in groups like that of those boys.  I’ll bet they are not masking either, and if they are close together that’s a no no, at least where I live.

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7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

 Would posting a video even be legal, especially if some of the kids are really still kids?

I would think so because there's no expectation of privacy on a public street. People post their Ring videos all the time on Nextdoor. Yes, some kids around here have gotten into trouble that way!

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Yes, if we get a video, I can ask some folks in the neighborhood. 

I wouldn't even wait for that, just ask some people if they any of the boys who've been riding around together, you might get a much quicker answer. 

4 hours ago, Innisfree said:

Night vision, good audio quality and all.

Audio is more complicated than photos or video, you need to check your local laws. It's often okay if the person is yelling in public, as opposed to having a private conversation, but it's trickier than video. Ask at the police station. 

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1 hour ago, katilac said:

Audio is more complicated than photos or video, you need to check your local laws.

I will ask the police, but does this apply to recording the audio, or just to posting it online? I do not intend to post anything online; there's another mom who might well know the boys if I can get a picture, though, and audio would make what they're doing clear beyond a doubt in case I can contact their families or the police.

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How routine are her walks? In other words, is she out and about at the same time?

If so, they know when to look for her. This increases the chance of them being there to offer their harassment. If she's not willing to vary her walking area may want to vary her time. At least then, they won't know when to look for her.

Even though this bunch may not have crossed the line legally, what they're displaying is predatory behavior. Not having a set routine will help throw things off since they won't know when she'll be walking by.

That said, I'd strongly recommend also finding another path to walk, even just to alternate to from time to time. No, she shouldn't have to, but we don't necessarily live in a just world. It's important to understand that one has to be proactive about their safety, even though no one should have to do such a thing.

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17 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Any neighbor with a big dog that needs walking?  Like a German Shepard?

I was going to suggest this. 

Also, can she go out really early, like 6am? I doubt a group of boys would be up that early. 

As much as it stinks, I think she is setting herself up to be a target by continuing to go alone. It's not right and she should not have to fear walking in her neighborhood. But her safety should be a priority,. 

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I understand why your daughter is angry and feeling uncomfortable about walking.  What I would do in the situation would depend on a number of things:  how big the group is (three is different from 8 or 10),  how large of an area she covers during a walk and how far from home it is, the opportunity for walking alternative routes, how busy the area is--whether there are people driving down the streets, working in their yards, riding bicycles, or walking themselves.  

If the group is large enough and this is happening often enough, I would think someone else in the neighborhood is also seeing this type of behavior.  I would ask around.

I would focus on the things that she can do--carry a cell phone and call 911 if she is approached, practice what she would say, they would not know who she is calling; if she doesn't think things are to the point of calling 911 she could call you or a friend, this could deter the boys but also would be a way for someone else to hear what is occurring; concentrate on a few identifying things--how many boys, which direction did they come from, which direction did they go, is there one who seems to be the ring leader, what color bike, raised or lowered handle bars, thin or thick tires, was the rider wearing a helmet.  

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15 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I agree with both pieces of advice except the bolded. 

The OP approached the cops, they were not of much use. We document our bike rides all the time using a GOPRO. Everyone has the right to document their walk wearing a camera on their person which is what the OP's daughter will do. She has the right to do that. If friendlypeople wish and wave to her, no one will get in trouble. If thugs harass her that and scare her, that will be documented as evidence and turned to the cops. 

You have the right to video record people in a public place who do not have an expectation of privacy, and even to post that video. Recording audio is more complex, and me agreeing with you in theory does nothing to change that. She should verify her local laws so she does it correctly and the audio can potentially be of some use,and she doesn't put herself in the position of possibly getting into trouble. It would suck hard if she wound up paying civil damages to these yahoos because she didn't follow the law. 

 

9 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Do not worry about audio laws. You need audio for evidence otherwise it could become a she said, they said.

All those people who behaved badly were caught because of both audio and video.

If the audio is illegal, the police and courts cannot use it. 

Like I said, there are certain situations where it is okay to record and publish both video and audio. Many places have 'one party consent,' which means you can record audio as long as one person in the conversation gives consent. Most of the viral videos fall under this. If her dd wanted to make sure this applied, she would have to engage them. The other big one I already mentioned: It's often okay if the person is yelling in public, as opposed to having a private conversation, but it's trickier than video. If the person being recorded is clearly yelling and making a ruckus, it is often decided that they waived their right to expect privacy, but again, audio laws are just not as clear cut. 

It is very, very easy to check local laws on this, so there's no reason to record without doing so. All the wishing in the world isn't going to change the fact that audio laws are more complex than video laws. 

17 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I will ask the police, but does this apply to recording the audio, or just to posting it online? I do not intend to post anything online; there's another mom who might well know the boys if I can get a picture, though, and audio would make what they're doing clear beyond a doubt in case I can contact their families or the police.

It applies to recording it, period. If you let a friend hear it in order to help identify them, of course nothing is likely to come of it. But the police can't use illegally recorded audio, and the families could actually use it against you if they choose to be belligerent. Just check your local laws before doing anything. 

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Okay, folks. She's not going out alone again. If she walks alone, I'll be nearby in the car with a camera. The body recorder should arrive Monday, but I'll consult the police before recording audio. I'll be talking to some neighbors as well. Thanks for all the suggestions.

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20 hours ago, Innisfree said:

One concern she has is that if she gets them in trouble, they'll be angry, and the situation will escalate. Any thoughts on that?

 

 A police officer once said to me people like this usually escalate anyway - or just one of them does as the others drive off or stand by. He also said  that many women specifically hesitate to act decisively because they fear escalation, however, many perpetrators know this and depend on this. 

Do they stop her in the same area or at different spots on her route?

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