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Ohio Governor Mike DeWine tests +, edited now -


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31 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 

Yes, the fact that the US federal government has not coordinated mass production of N95 masks ....well, I can't say it's shocking, because at this point it's not, but it is certainly remarkable.

Separately, it is still strange to me that by this point the free market has not taken up at least some of this slack.  I'm not in the US right now so quite possibly I'm missing some of what's going on, but I would have thought that six months into a global pandemic there would be tons of companies selling masks and other PPE, each advertising their own effectiveness.  I keep thinking about those commercials for paper towels that show how one brand mops the spill right up while the other brand doesn't.    I would have thought that American airwaves would be positively deluged with ads showing droplet spread and how one manufacturer's mask protects more than another's.  

I understand that the shortage of PPE for health care workers has complicated both the messaging and presumably the market dynamics from the beginning, but I still find the current situation baffling.  

I am getting tons of ads for masks in my social feeds. Every company I know of that even remotely works with fabric is making and selling masks. And advertising them.

But regulations in the US pretty much prohibit the types of claims you're talking about in advertising. I mean, the ads I see show the blowing out the lighter test or other things, but they can't promise effectiveness against a virus or more protection than another company unless they go through a butt ton of testing. Paper towel ads and diapers show generic "leading competitors". For companies making masks, there isn't really such a thing. But the market is responding to a need for masks.

Also, afaik, the government has contracted with 3m and Honeywell (?) to ramp up n95 production in the states, but those masks also have to pass even more rigorous testing. Ones we and other countries have gotten from China after they ramped up production have been shown in various places to be below standards. 

Edited by EmseB
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35 minutes ago, JennyD said:

there would be tons of companies selling masks

There are.

In our state, where masking is mandated, many or most people are wearing homemade masks. 

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37 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 

Yes, the fact that the US federal government has not coordinated mass production of N95 masks ....well, I can't say it's shocking, because at this point it's not, but it is certainly remarkable.

Separately, it is still strange to me that by this point the free market has not taken up at least some of this slack.  I'm not in the US right now so quite possibly I'm missing some of what's going on, but I would have thought that six months into a global pandemic there would be tons of companies selling masks and other PPE, each advertising their own effectiveness.  I keep thinking about those commercials for paper towels that show how one brand mops the spill right up while the other brand doesn't.    I would have thought that American airwaves would be positively deluged with ads showing droplet spread and how one manufacturer's mask protects more than another's.  

I understand that the shortage of PPE for health care workers has complicated both the messaging and presumably the market dynamics from the beginning, but I still find the current situation baffling.  

 

There *are* tons of masks being sold now. Also face shields.  New versions  of masks being invented...

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14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

There are.

In our state, where masking is mandated, many or most people are wearing homemade masks. 

 

Are people wearing the homemade masks because they're more comfortable or because the ones being marketed are expensive?  Or is the thought that the cloth ones actually work better?  I keep seeing photos of people in bandanas.

(Where I am masks have been mandated since April.  There's never been a shortage, though. so most people usually wear surgical masks, which you can buy in large quantities at the grocery store or the pharmacy.)

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15 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Are people wearing the homemade masks because they're more comfortable or because the ones being marketed are expensive?  Or is the thought that the cloth ones actually work better?  I keep seeing photos of people in bandanas.

(Where I am masks have been mandated since April.  There's never been a shortage, though. so most people usually wear surgical masks, which you can buy in large quantities at the grocery store or the pharmacy.)

 

I can't say why others are wearing homemade masks, but I am wearing them because I made them and feel better with a product I made than the "Made in China" ones I see available here. I've seen masks at the store for $3-5 US dollars, so they aren't expensive.

The cloth masks I made have 2 layers of cotton, 2 layers of interfacing, and tie in the back. I can adjust them to get a snug fit around my nose and there are no gaps. 

Edited by MissLemon
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This is one reason why someone might prefer to make their own masks.  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/19/world/asia/china-mask-forced-labor.html 

Actually, all our masks have come from a local group of refugee women. They cost more than the ones I can buy at stores here, but they last longer and the women need the income right now.

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2 hours ago, EmseB said:

.

But regulations in the US pretty much prohibit the types of claims you're talking about in advertising. I mean, the ads I see show the blowing out the lighter test or other things, but they can't promise effectiveness against a virus or more protection than another company unless they go through a butt ton of testing. Paper towel ads and diapers show generic "leading competitors". For companies making masks, there isn't really such a thing. But the market is responding to a need for masks.

 

That makes sense, and I had forgotten that you can't make certain specific claims without running afoul of the FTC.   But I'd imagine that companies would be pushing that envelope as much as possible to try and compete primarily on the basis of (real or perceived) effectiveness.   Is that your sense of how the market dynamic is evolving?  Or are manufacturers mostly trying to compete on other grounds (comfort, style, ethically made etc.)?    Does there seem to be a consumer consensus yet on what sorts of masks are 'best'? Are some masks much more expensive than others?

Sorry to derail the thread from Gov. DeWine, btw. I hope that his situation is resolved quickly and for the best.  I am just sort of fascinated about how this whole PPE-as-ordinary-consumer-products thing has been shaking out. 

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1 hour ago, JennyD said:

 

That makes sense, and I had forgotten that you can't make certain specific claims without running afoul of the FTC.   But I'd imagine that companies would be pushing that envelope as much as possible to try and compete primarily on the basis of (real or perceived) effectiveness.   Is that your sense of how the market dynamic is evolving?  Or are manufacturers mostly trying to compete on other grounds (comfort, style, ethically made etc.)?    Does there seem to be a consumer consensus yet on what sorts of masks are 'best'? Are some masks much more expensive than others?

Sorry to derail the thread from Gov. DeWine, btw. I hope that his situation is resolved quickly and for the best.  I am just sort of fascinated about how this whole PPE-as-ordinary-consumer-products thing has been shaking out. 

There are really so many advertised on my feed and Etsy is awash with them, it is hard to say.

Some advertise antimicrobial and filtration, some advertise comfort, adjustability, nose wire for anti fog, ties, elastic, over ear, over head, pleats, no pleats, filter pocket. 

And then fashion...old navy, anthro, carter's for kids, any company that makes clothing I can almost always find masks now.

Some made by companies that make scrubs or vacuum bags, some made by companies that make wallets.

I've seen them for as little as $3, up to 15 or 20 depending on brand and features.

There is no consensus that I can find. I think part of this is that the messaging from tptb is that anything that covers nose and mouth to keep droplets closer to yourself will do and they are not to protect the wearer. So, to that end, effectiveness is not really something that anyone has tried to prove in any meaningful way. A friend of mine did start using the antiviral kleenex as a filter in her reusable masks!

Through it all I have preferred surgical masks, but I have sewn my own and bought a couple. 

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36 minutes ago, EmseB said:

A friend of mine did start using the antiviral kleenex as a filter in her reusable masks!

 

That's pretty creative!  (I also did not know that there was such a thing as antiviral kleenex.)

 

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2 hours ago, JennyD said:

 

That makes sense, and I had forgotten that you can't make certain specific claims without running afoul of the FTC.   But I'd imagine that companies would be pushing that envelope as much as possible to try and compete primarily on the basis of (real or perceived) effectiveness.   Is that your sense of how the market dynamic is evolving?  Or are manufacturers mostly trying to compete on other grounds (comfort, style, ethically made etc.)?    Does there seem to be a consumer consensus yet on what sorts of masks are 'best'? Are some masks much more expensive than others?

Sorry to derail the thread from Gov. DeWine, btw. I hope that his situation is resolved quickly and for the best.  I am just sort of fascinated about how this whole PPE-as-ordinary-consumer-products thing has been shaking out. 

I’m not seeing this in the Mid-Atlantic. You can buys masks everywhere now but the marketing push I see is based on the appeal of the print/design. People want masks with cool designs, or their favorite sports team, or (ironically) supporting a certain political candidate. In fact, I ordered five masks yesterday with Maryland pride designs on them because they look cool and we need some ear loop versions. 

Ordinarily, I much prefer my cloth, homemade masks because I can make them fit very well with no gaps and no scootching around when I talk. But the ties admittedly are annoying in a setting where you need to take it off and put it on repeatedly. 

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6 hours ago, JennyD said:

 

 

Are people wearing the homemade masks because they're more comfortable or because the ones being marketed are expensive?  Or is the thought that the cloth ones actually work better?  I keep seeing photos of people in bandanas.

(Where I am masks have been mandated since April.  There's never been a shortage, though. so most people usually wear surgical masks, which you can buy in large quantities at the grocery store or the pharmacy.)

I wear a homemade on because the ones I ordered took a month to get here and don't fit as well, and cost enough that I'm not in a hurry to buy more and have the same issue. 

My homemade ones have a nose wire, gathered sides, etc and fit my face with no gaps. Surgical disposable ones don't have that, and leave gaps. And the cloth one I bought doesn't fit well either, and has gaps on the top of my cheeks. 

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I really hope they take some time on the news conference to explain the difference between the tests that were administered. Already people on FB are doubting the testing because he got two different results in one day. Not that the people on FB represent a majority, necessarily. But I hate to see something like this influence people not to be tested.

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5 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I really hope they take some time on the news conference to explain the difference between the tests that were administered. Already people on FB are doubting the testing because he got two different results in one day. Not that the people on FB represent a majority, necessarily. But I hate to see something like this influence people not to be tested.

Well it raises a lot of questions, that's for sure. The article I read said Ohio had just gone in to buy 500,000 of the rapid tests. I think people expect a percentage of false negatives but would not want to miss say a cruise or 2 weeks of work (without recourse?) over a false positive. The article said they''ll be investigating. 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Do the rapid tests give false positives?

Did you read what the thread is about? Refill your coffee... :biggrin:

Edited by PeterPan
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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I did, but I haven’t clicked links! I’m being lazy, lol. Yesterday, no one said it was a false positive I don’t think.

I need one of those Karate Kid quotes here and I don't have one. :biggrin:

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14 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

And I can't for the life of me figure that one out. Doesn't everyone pretty much agree that the safest ballots are paper and hand marked? Which is exactly what mail in ballots are. And the sheer logistics of (for example) someone attempting to print fake ballots or something similar boggles the mind. I live in a smallish, partially suburban/partially rural county and I figure someone would have to print at least six different ballots just for my county, plus get the names and identifying info (like last four digits of SSN) to match, etc. The idea that something like that could be done on a large scale baffles me.

I don’t think anyone is saying people are printing fake ballots.  The bigger issue is mailing unrequested ballots to every single voter who may or may not still be living at that address or living at all gives plenty of extra real ballots floating around - Chicago has a long standing reputation for voter fraud on a large scale, dead people voting and such shenanigans.  Add in the fact that the post office can barely get the regular mail delivered on time and without losing it - how are they suddenly going to be able to handle a massive influx of time sensitive material?  I requested a petition by mail and it showed up a month after it was supposed to arrive...a month!  The outcry will be that we found more ballots at the post office or they arrived late and it will just feed the fire of whether the election results for any office is valid.  At a minimum, massive mail in voting will certainly delay the election results.

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11 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

I don’t think anyone is saying people are printing fake ballots.  The bigger issue is mailing unrequested ballots to every single voter who may or may not still be living at that address or living at all gives plenty of extra real ballots floating around - Chicago has a long standing reputation for voter fraud on a large scale, dead people voting and such shenanigans.  Add in the fact that the post office can barely get the regular mail delivered on time and without losing it - how are they suddenly going to be able to handle a massive influx of time sensitive material?  I requested a petition by mail and it showed up a month after it was supposed to arrive...a month!  The outcry will be that we found more ballots at the post office or they arrived late and it will just feed the fire of whether the election results for any office is valid.  At a minimum, massive mail in voting will certainly delay the election results.

But again -- these are hand marked paper ballots than can easily be checked.

And yes, I have indeed heard pundits on a certain political side speculate that fake ballots could (would) be printed. There's all sorts of stupid floating around.

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I can't find the article but the "plan" was to rollout extensive use of the quick tests to allow for kids to play sports, for example. This scenario of the governor testing positive via quick test and then negative twice via PCR (the longer, traditional test) is worrying. I had already "heard" the quick tests were not as accurate.

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27 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I can't find the article but the "plan" was to rollout extensive use of the quick tests to allow for kids to play sports, for example. This scenario of the governor testing positive via quick test and then negative twice via PCR (the longer, traditional test) is worrying. I had already "heard" the quick tests were not as accurate.

It will be interesting to find out how likely a false positive is, but no matter what, every testing scenario that exists will have pros and cons. At this stage of the game, politics and conspiracy theories (at least locally) will have already warped people's willingness to listen and receive that information with some kind of actual interest in understanding vs. an interest in spinning more conspiracy theories. 

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17 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I'm still going to my necessary medical appointments, fwiw.  I've been trying to talk my primary care dr into running a drive-through clinic for influenza shots this fall.  I'm ok going in to an office (they have VERY strict distancing guidelines in the office and they are running HEPA filters in each room), but I know a lot of people are hesitant.

 

If you have drive through pharmacy near you, call and ask if they'll come out to give you a flu shot.  They might arrange a time when they aren't busy, and I think pharmacists (who have a doctorate in pharmacy) can give flu shots in most states.

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9 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

I don’t think anyone is saying people are printing fake ballots.  The bigger issue is mailing unrequested ballots to every single voter who may or may not still be living at that address or living at all gives plenty of extra real ballots floating around - Chicago has a long standing reputation for voter fraud on a large scale, dead people voting and such shenanigans.  Add in the fact that the post office can barely get the regular mail delivered on time and without losing it - how are they suddenly going to be able to handle a massive influx of time sensitive material?  I requested a petition by mail and it showed up a month after it was supposed to arrive...a month!  The outcry will be that we found more ballots at the post office or they arrived late and it will just feed the fire of whether the election results for any office is valid.  At a minimum, massive mail in voting will certainly delay the election results.

 

Eta: In places with both in person voting and mail in voting...

I don't think *ballots* are ever sent to every voter but some places have send *applications* to vote by mail.  I think this was some of the confusion and uproar.

I live in a huge county and our ballot needs to be requested, signed, and can be put in an election drop box instead of mailed.  If mailing it must be postmarked by election day.  I am a big USPS fan but with the slowdowns we're using the drop box.  I hope other counties make that an option.

eta: I am not familiar with places that vote only by mail

 

Edited by happi duck
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7 hours ago, JennyD said:

 Or are manufacturers mostly trying to compete on other grounds (comfort, style, ethically made etc.)?    Does there seem to be a consumer consensus yet on what sorts of masks are 'best'? Are some masks much more expensive than others?

It seems like big manufacturers are focusing on comfort and print/appearance. Or price. I have to look harder to find masks that detail their construction and focus on features to prevent gapping and to provide extra filtration. I’m another who prefers my homemade ones at this point, because they fit well with no gaps and are made with high quality materials, including an inner filter layer made of a medical cloth with a known filtration factor. 

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

Do the rapid tests give false positives?

They haven’t been known to before now. I wonder if he has a very low viral load and they just happened to catch it at a high point before it went down too much to be detected. It’s still weird that it would be the antigen test that picked it up and not the PCR, though. Again, I’m very curious about this. 

1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

The outcry will be that we found more ballots at the post office or they arrived late and it will just feed the fire of whether the election results for any office is valid.  At a minimum, massive mail in voting will certainly delay the election results.

Having a US election called into question would be an outcome really bad for democracy, so I agree it’s important to move forward in a way that gives people confidence. There are a number of states that do all their voting by mail already, and have robust systems in place. It seems ideal for other states to confer with those already doing it and start preparing their own systems to do the same, so every voter has a way to have their vote counted. In the meantime, the public should be reassured how and why it is very safe to vote by mail, just as is done in many states and by everyone who requests an absentee ballot. It’s dangerous to sow distrust in our election systems, whichever “side”’ you are on. A peaceful election according to our constitution is absolutely essential. 

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9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

I can't say why others are wearing homemade masks, but I am wearing them because I made them and feel better with a product I made than the "Made in China" ones I see available here. I've seen masks at the store for $3-5 US dollars, so they aren't expensive.

The cloth masks I made have 2 layers of cotton, 2 layers of interfacing, and tie in the back. I can adjust them to get a snug fit around my nose and there are no gaps. 

This.  Also, though I purchased a couple of boxes of disposible masks for "emergencies", I dislike throw-away stuff when I have access to reusable things.  

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5 hours ago, square_25 said:

I’ve been doing a sliding knot on my tied masks 🙂.

Oh. Well, that’s smart! 

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Thanks!! People had all sorts of fun hacks on my thread. Want a link?

Sure! 

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6 hours ago, Quill said:

 

Ordinarily, I much prefer my cloth, homemade masks because I can make them fit very well with no gaps and no scootching around when I talk. But the ties admittedly are annoying in a setting where you need to take it off and put it on repeatedly. 

I keep remodeling and updating the masks I have sewn for myself. I use one long loop, which creates a loop to hang around your neck when you are able to pull it down. You pull it up and tie up at the top of your head.

(In the car while running errands is where I would pull it down)

Last week I swapped out the all cotton ties for a cotton Lycra tie. ( very stretchy fsbric used for t shirts and leggings)

They are awesome! Once we get it tied where we like it, we can just leave it tied. 

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2 minutes ago, KatieinMich said:

I keep remodeling and updating the masks I have sewn for myself. I use one long loop, which creates a loop to hang around your neck when you are able to pull it down. You pull it up and tie up at the top of your head.

(In the car while running errands is where I would pull it down)

Last week I swapped out the all cotton ties for a cotton Lycra tie. ( very stretchy fsbric used for t shirts and leggings)

They are awesome! Once we get it tied where we like it, we can just leave it tied. 

I did make two for dh with the long loop with shoestrings for the ties. He does like this best because it’s easier to pull up and down as needed. What I personally disliked in sewing those is I found the channels for threading through the shoelace were fairly difficult. Material bunching up on the inside or just not making a wide-enough channel affects threading it through. (I’m not the greatest seamstress you ever met; I’m functional with it, but that’s all.) I live in fear that he will let the string pull through and I’ll have to thread it through again! 

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24 minutes ago, Quill said:

I did make two for dh with the long loop with shoestrings for the ties. He does like this best because it’s easier to pull up and down as needed. What I personally disliked in sewing those is I found the channels for threading through the shoelace were fairly difficult. Material bunching up on the inside or just not making a wide-enough channel affects threading it through. (I’m not the greatest seamstress you ever met; I’m functional with it, but that’s all.) I live in fear that he will let the string pull through and I’ll have to thread it through again! 

I have to make

 the channels  wide enough for sure.  When you turn the end under, top stitch them down and the strap will go,thru easier. Tie the straps together before washing. With the knit straps they stay tied  always....and the knit fsbric ties  grab  the cotton  better. They won’t come undone, in theory....

but yes , , I have had to rethread  straps a couple ,of times.  

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As an Ohioan, I do think this whole saga has hurt credibility regarding both masks and tests.  We'll see if it has any repercussions.  Right now we have a mask mandate almost everywhere, so legally it's not a choice.  Most people I see are following the mandates even if they disagree with them.

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And if they are planning to use that kind of test to disqualify individual kids from playing sports or going to school, that's going to be a big issue.  (Not that any test wouldn't be an issue.)

Of course his "other tests" might be false negatives, who knows.

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As far as false positives go, my uncle down in FL had a positive rapid test back in the beginning on June.  He was sent to the hospital where he had 2 negative swab-type tests  over the next week.  He was having symptoms--coughing, difficulty breathing, fever--but it turned out he had pneumonia.  So the rapid test definitely can have false positives.  And I know those false positives are not "struck out" of the counts either.

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3 hours ago, happi duck said:

I don't think *ballots* are ever sent to every voter but some places have send *applications* to vote by mail.  I think this was some of the confusion and uproar.

I live in a huge county and our ballot needs to be requested, signed, and can be put in an election drop box instead of mailed.  If mailing it must be postmarked by election day.  I am a big USPS fan but with the slowdowns we're using the drop box.  I hope other counties make that an option.

This.  Normally I'd totally be fine with mailing it, but with a Trump appointee in charge who is intentionally slowing things down and telling workers to 'leave mail'... I will admit that just now, I want the option to put it in a drop box.

We also have to request a ballot, so they have a record of who has requested one, and it is checked against the names of who ballots were sent to, just like when you vote in person.  I just want my ballot to make it to the people counting and not be lost in the back of a mail truck somewhere...

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6 hours ago, square_25 said:

Do the rapid tests give false positives?

We ended up with a big false positive situation in VT last month. https://vtdigger.org/2020/07/17/levine-says-manchester-covid-19-cases-may-be-false-positives/ 

There was what was thought to be an outbreak in southern VT, with close to 60 people testing positive with the antigen tests only to be retested and found negative from the PCR tests. There was a bunch of back and forth with the health clinic in Manchester and the Dept of Health but they were ultimately not counted as positive tests unless they were found positive on the PCR test too. There's still a fair bit of confusion  around the different tests here. 

 

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35 minutes ago, SKL said:

And if they are planning to use that kind of test to disqualify individual kids from playing sports or going to school, that's going to be a big issue.  (Not that any test wouldn't be an issue.)

Of course his "other tests" might be false negatives, who knows.

I didn't know the rapids could do false positives (though if I had to think about it, I'd probably have acknowledged the possibility)

THe way it works here (if asked to test, perhaps due to exposure): If you get a positive on a rapid test, then you quarantine, etc.

If you get a negative on a rapid test, go get another kind of test. If it is ALSO negative then you can come back to work. The rapid test on its own result is not good enough.

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27 minutes ago, AFwife Claire said:

As far as false positives go, my uncle down in FL had a positive rapid test back in the beginning on June.  He was sent to the hospital where he had 2 negative swab-type tests  over the next week.  He was having symptoms--coughing, difficulty breathing, fever--but it turned out he had pneumonia.  So the rapid test definitely can have false positives.  And I know those false positives are not "struck out" of the counts either.

Depends where you are - false positives are not counted in my state.

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3 hours ago, happi duck said:

I don't think *ballots* are ever sent to every voter but some places have send *applications* to vote by mail.  I think this was some of the confusion and uproar.

I live in a huge county and our ballot needs to be requested, signed, and can be put in an election drop box instead of mailed.  If mailing it must be postmarked by election day.  I am a big USPS fan but with the slowdowns we're using the drop box.  I hope other counties make that an option.

 

 

Our city's  Assembly approved mail-in voting (exclusively) a couple years ago, and mailing out ballots to every registered voter is precisely what happens every local election now. And the lists have not been cleaned up, so plenty of people in our very transient state are being sent ballots despite living elsewhere now. My oldest daughter has been registered to vote in two different states since living here and she still gets a ballot every election. She's probably supposed to officially notify the city that she left, but I am sure she is not alone in her failure to do so. I could have sent in three ballots in the last city election, between the daughter that has moved, my own ballot, and the college aged daughter who did not realize a city election was taking place.

Apart from the possibility of that sort of fraud, there's the issue of loss of anonymity, as we are required to sign the envelope in which we send the ballot. There's a huge potential for vulnerable people to have their vote unduly influenced by campaign workers who come to their house or group living situation to give an inspirational talk and "help" fill out the ballot. Employers can insist on certain votes and proof of such. Abusive spouses can force their partners to vote in a certain way.

It's all a mess and our city has definitely suffered since it was instituted. It shocks me that my more progressive friends who are generally concerned about vulnerable populations seem to have a blind spot as to the potential for abuse with this system. The line seems to be "Oh, it has worked well for years in...(name city)". I think as long as they are generally getting the results they want, they call that "working well."

Edited by GoodGrief
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3 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Our Assembly approved mail-in voting (exclusively) a couple years ago, and mailing out ballots to every registered voter is precisely what happens every election now. And the lists have not been cleaned up, so plenty of people in our very transient state are being sent ballots despite living elsewhere now. My oldest daughter has been registered to vote in two different states since living here and she still gets a ballot every election. She's probably supposed to officially notify the city that she left, but I am sure she is not alone in her failure to do so. I could have sent in three ballots in the last city election, between the daughter that has moved, my own ballot, and the college aged daughter who did not realize a city election was taking place.

Apart from the possibility of that sort of fraud, there's the issue of loss of anonymity, as we are required to sign the envelope in which we send the ballot. There's a huge potential for vulnerable people to have their vote unduly influenced by campaign workers who come to their house or group living situation to give an inspirational talk and "help" fill out the ballot. Employers can insist on certain votes and proof of such. Abusive spouses can force their partners to vote in a certain way.

It's all a mess and our city has definitely suffered since it was instituted. It shocks me that my more progressive friends who are generally concerned about vulnerable populations seem to have a blind spot as to the potential for abuse with this system. The line seems to be "Oh, it has worked well for years in...(name city)". I think as long as they are generally getting the results they want, they call that "working well."

My friends in Washington state tell me the same sort of stuff -- only registering once but getting two ballots in the mail. Ballots still being sent out for people who died. Etc.

 

I know when I lived there I had an almost boyfriend who was VERY glad they did not have mail-in ballots growing up (It was the discussion when Washington was talking about going to 100% Mail in voting) -- he said his parents would have made sure they voted together on the dining room table -- and exactly how the dad wanted him to vote. By going into the ballot box he was able to vote his conscience, not his dad's.

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21 hours ago, Quill said:

I hear this all the time and it still just makes NO SENSE to me whatsoever. Seriously, I could jump for joy that we got the mask mandate early, it has never relented (though it has been tightened even more) and that I encounter mask refusers virtually never. I have seen it one time in a store and my dd saw it one time outside a store. That’s it. Literally everyone I encounter everywhere is masked. Thank the gods. 

As you know, I am in a densely populated area near you with the same mandates that you have. According to the mandate, people in my neighborhood should be masked while walking around outside because masks are required when social distancing is not possible and we are often too crowded for social distancing. Alas, I regret to inform you that many (if not most) pedestrians are not wearing masks outside. They pop them on to go in a shop.

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6 hours ago, cintinative said:

I can't find the article but the "plan" was to rollout extensive use of the quick tests to allow for kids to play sports, for example. This scenario of the governor testing positive via quick test and then negative twice via PCR (the longer, traditional test) is worrying. I had already "heard" the quick tests were not as accurate.

What I'm confused about is when did he take the PCR test, compared to the rapid antigen test? 

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

As an Ohioan, I do think this whole saga has hurt credibility regarding both masks and tests.  We'll see if it has any repercussions.  

What’s the thought on how this hurts the credibility of masks? 

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

Apart from the possibility of that sort of fraud, there's the issue of loss of anonymity, as we are required to sign the envelope in which we send the ballot. There's a huge potential for vulnerable people to have their vote unduly influenced by campaign workers who come to their house or group living situation to give an inspirational talk and "help" fill out the ballot. Employers can insist on certain votes and proof of such. Abusive spouses can force their partners to vote in a certain way.

It's all a mess and our city has definitely suffered since it was instituted. It shocks me that my more progressive friends who are generally concerned about vulnerable populations seem to have a blind spot as to the potential for abuse with this system. The line seems to be "Oh, it has worked well for years in...(name city)".

Those are good issues to raise and things to think through. It’s hard to come up with a system that doesn’t have any possible way for anyone to ever abuse it, but we should come as close to that as possible. Mail in voting allows many more vulnerable people to vote, as those are the people most often disenfranchised by in person voting. Either they can’t get there, or they’re not open when they are off work, or they’re not healthy enough to stand in line for a long time, etc.  Especially right now with COVID-19, there are so many older and more vulnerable people who would not be able to vote if they had to go to a polling place in person.

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

My friends in Washington state tell me the same sort of stuff -- only registering once but getting two ballots in the mail. Ballots still being sent out for people who died. Etc.

 

I don’t know about that happening, but if it ever did happen, there still would be no way for more than one vote to be recorded per person. Every ballot is checked against the signature, so I don’t see any way someone would be able to submit two ballots. I went looking to see if Washington State had had issues like that, and found this interview with their (Republican, fwiw) secretary of state that addresses some of these issues: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/28/864410852/lessons-to-learn-from-washingtons-decades-long-experience-of-mail-in-voting
In practice, it just hasn’t ended up being that mail in ballots cause any widespread fraud. I think everyone wants to be sure that every person‘s vote will count,  in which case we better have a good system for people who cannot attend a polling place in person.

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59 minutes ago, Penguin said:

As you know, I am in a densely populated area near you with the same mandates that you have. According to the mandate, people in my neighborhood should be masked while walking around outside because masks are required when social distancing is not possible and we are often too crowded for social distancing. Alas, I regret to inform you that many (if not most) pedestrians are not wearing masks outside. They pop them on to go in a shop.

Boo. I’m sorry to hear that. I had a notion to come walk around your town. My BIL works around there and I thought I might meet up with my sister and her little budgies. But not if people aren’t masking. Boo again. 

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37 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

What I'm confused about is when did he take the PCR test, compared to the rapid antigen test? 

 

I know that they were taken the same day, but I am not sure the time exactly. It's possible the rapid and the PCR were taken at the same time, with the knowledge that the PCR would take longer before a result was available.

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17 minutes ago, Quill said:

Boo. I’m sorry to hear that. I had a notion to come walk around your town. My BIL works around there and I thought I might meet up with my sister and her little budgies. But not if people aren’t masking. Boo again. 

Just don’t do it on a sunny weekend and you might find the main streets to be ok. I’d say stay out of the city park though. We avoid it at all times. Side streets are normally ok. 

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

Most people I see are following the mandates even if they disagree with them.

I doubt it's because of the testig iasco yesterday, but masking today in walmart was PATHETIC. 20-30% of people were either uncovered or had nose pokes. 

So at the very least, I would say the mood and support is shifting. Now that's the worst demographic and time of day, but still something has shifted.

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6 hours ago, cintinative said:

 

I know that they were taken the same day, but I am not sure the time exactly. It's possible the rapid and the PCR were taken at the same time, with the knowledge that the PCR would take longer before a result was available.

In his news conference, he said that he had the rapid test in Cleveland, then returned to Columbus, where he had the PCR test. So the tests were taken several hours apart.

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On 8/7/2020 at 2:22 AM, MissLemon said:

 

I can't say why others are wearing homemade masks, but I am wearing them because I made them and feel better with a product I made than the "Made in China" ones I see available here. I've seen masks at the store for $3-5 US dollars, so they aren't expensive.

The cloth masks I made have 2 layers of cotton, 2 layers of interfacing, and tie in the back. I can adjust them to get a snug fit around my nose and there are no gaps. 

In general, I have tried to avoid made in China for decades, but have doubled down since the pandemic.  Not keen that most of the fabric comes from China, but sewn here is a step in the right direction.  I have a mix of homemade by my mom and purchased Made in USA masks.  No one is going to call me an environmental activist, but I don’t think disposable masks for everyone are the answer.  The ones showing up here are super thin and  I find them out everywhere littering the ground.

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On 8/7/2020 at 9:43 AM, Mom2mthj said:

I don’t think anyone is saying people are printing fake ballots.

I hope this isn't getting too political, but . . . see this article for tweets from POTUS and quotes from Barr claiming that foreign countries could mass produce fake ballots. The article explains why that is highly unlikely.

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