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Are you still socially distancing?


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4 minutes ago, EmseB said:

But why would this be limited to short term rental homes? Once this is the policy why wouldn't it apply to families having a BBQ or other outdoor event?

It seems so short sighted to say this is okay because it's only happening to rich people.

I really don't think they're so worried about the smaller events with backyard hotdogs.  The event they're talking about was huge, unmasked, and had body surfing.  There were helicopters, people flew in from out of state.

For ridiculous parties at personal residences, fines would I think be a good way to go.  I have family in CA that just had over 60 people at a birthday party for their turning 90yo matriarch.  No distancing, no masks, it's all just a hoax dont'cha know.  Yeah, maybe a fine would be a deterrent.  This kind of lunacy does need to be shut down.

But for big places like this that are renting, they'd just pay the fine and keep going.  It would be hella easy to write any rule with different consequences for number of people over limit and for business-owned space vs hosting something at a residence.

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To me, the question is like, "Are you still not smoking?" Just because something has been around a while doesn't make it less problematic, though it does appear we have less hospital overwhelm and slightly better approaches to treatment.

Of course I'm still distancing! It isn't like COVID is suddenly harmless. I'm also seeking out reputable sources of information, like the podcast, "This Week in Virology," where I can hear from actual virologists and immunologists about the latest research into COVID. Recently, they talked about research on how COVID screws with your immune system in ways that can be detected long term. We have *absolutely* no clue what the long term effects of COVID are going to be. OTOH, people I know with chronic fatigue syndrome are hopeful that the high number of people who will likely develop CFS over the coming months will spur new research into CFS. Sigh. 😪

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1 minute ago, square_25 said:

Frankly, what I’ve seen about the “moderate” cases, both anecdotally and from credible sources, has made me LESS interested in getting COVID. I used to think it’s be fine cause we aren’t old. Yeah... unclear. Our life would collapse if I got CFS. No, thank you. 

Yes, as someone with fibromyalgia (which is basically CFS plus a whole bucketload of pain) I am very concerned about the long term cases.  Of course it's too soon to know if they will have life-long illness like I have but even for a year or two, it's very hard and life-changing. 

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1 hour ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I suspect that masks don't work well because after the mask mandate we saw a HUGE spike in Covid-19 cases.  The mask mandate doesn't appear to have made a dent at all.  Also, it seems to me that if the masks worked like they're supposed to, social distancing wouldn't be necessary.  They're supposed to contain the droplets that carry the virus.  If they worked (contained the droplets), then it would be fine for people to be within 6 feet of each other.  If they don't work, then social distancing remains necessary.  

Bottomline: I think the recommendations (masks, social distancing) are contradictory and unnecessary in most situations, since the virus is not dangerous for most people. (Compare case fatality rates by age to the seasonal flu.)  If you or someone you're with is a member of a vulnerable population (elderly, medically fragile) then, yes, do all you can.  But I don't think shutting down our state, and cutting ourselves off from physical contact with friends and loved ones is necessary or good.   

Masks DO seem to have worked well here. Since the mask mandate cases are dropping steadily. 

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4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Ah, you’ve mentioned that it was from a virus before. Did it ever improve at all or no?

It can go in cycles.  I have gone semi-invalid, to clawing my way up to some semblance of greater health back to semi invalid again to. . .    Right now I'm on the upswing but it's never without pain or fatigue.  Actually the cycles are more to do with me getting tired of the battle but giving in actually leads to more pain etc. so it's back to clawing my way through life.  (Or tackling 😉  ) 

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My masked socially distanced life isn't so horrible.  I still have friends and family.  I still run errands and take care of necessary business plus some extra things that aren't necessary.  I have a walking date set up with a friend for next week.  I will mask.  It won't kill me and will protect my friend who I care about very much.  My husband and children are all working and wearing masks while doing so - in the public parts of their jobs and working remotely for those parts that allow that.  I am still part of my community and my church even if the church part is online for me.  (Our church is also doing in person church but I am staying home.)  The camp where I work as Camp Director has been cancelled this year but we've prayed about it and I feel peace about the decision to keep our staff and campers safe.  But I strongly believe in being content with the circumstances in which God has put me.  That doesn't mean that I don't have opinions but looking at the actual science of viral transmission etc. leads me to respect the attempts that our leadership is making to protect our population in my state.  And masking and social distancing is a small "price" to pay. 

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10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Government overreach always winds up meaning “the government is doing things I don’t like,” lol.

There have to be actual principles, or confirmation bias runs amok. 

(Your example does fit into any principles I can think of, of course.)

Yeah, that's why I listed it.  I can't think of any situation where secret police and nabbing people in vans and shock troops for graffiti - something that can be washed off and has been covering surfaces in cities in America for the better part of the last century without hurting our democracy, I just can't think of a spin where that's not overreach.  You don't attack your own populace for paint.  And expressing onesself against the government is literally the FIRST amendment.  We get to do that without being hauled into vans and shot at.  The first amendment is to protect the citizens from *exactly this scenario*  the government trying to forcibly shut down criticism from the public.  The first amendment was not written to guarantee elected officials' speech on Twitter.  Nope.  

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2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I already don’t lead a pain-free life... I have headaches every other day and weird neurological symptoms that result in not liking having my bare skin touched. I really don’t know how I’d deal with more disruption 😕 .

But see, this is where I think "we can only control what we can control".  Social distancing and masking was never about 100% certainty of not getting a pandemic virus that is floating around.  Short of being in an isolation ward all the time, we just can't control all the possible points of viral exposure.  But (as you especially know well 🙂 ) we can lower the statistical probability of us getting ill or at least getting a more severe case due to higher viral load.  While the government restrictions were about "flattening the curve", my personal restrictions were about lowering my personal statistical probability of getting COVID19.  Some don't care about their personal probability for either catching the virus or at least being significantly impacted by it.  I hope that they are right.  I have seen many testimonials by people who believed like they did, that it would be no big deal and are now warning others that it was indeed a big deal.  In some cases, it is the family of deceased people who are doing the warning.  Obviously for every warning testimonial there could also be testimonials of those who had zero symptoms but since asymptomatic people still show physical damage on CT scans etc.  I think that it's too soon to breathe easy about those cases.  Hopefully the invisible damage will heal with time with no external disruption to their lives.  And I don't think that it is wrong for government health officials to try to be proactive in protecting people's heath (beyond just avoiding hospital overrun) as we find out more information about the potential impacts of this novel virus. 

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4 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

We social distance to the max.

We had a life with PS, overseas travel for seeing family, restaurants, gym, ethnic markets and extracurriculars. We also had people over a lot and we had friends of other religions we celebrated frequently with.

What I miss most is the human interaction. I hate amazon impersonal grocery, I miss my ethnic markets and the people who know me and what I liked, the restaurants we frequented who again knew us, swimming and most of all the option of jumping on a plane and going to see my family without fear of being stranded.

But I will not risk because we do not have family here so we are not blasé about masks or social distancing because DH and I are it for our kids and guardians are overseas. Though we have a vast network of friends, if both of us are down my kids wil be heavily disrupted and that is not an option for us. So we are beyond careful and make home a sanctuary. 

 

I think family size and other options for kids may be very significant.

I see a few families with only children saying they need to have social for their kids.

However, as a general trend, by and large, I see  people from very small families without a lot of options of relatives to take care of children if parents were to get sick or die being much more careful than larger families.  At least in my area. Or people I know personally at a distance.

Also, of course, younger singles seem less cautious, and it seems to me also couples with no children seem to be less cautious .

 

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Yes.  All work from home, masks and social distance when we leave for essential purposes, appointments or recreation.  No restaurants except for takeout or delivery.  We have been to the (uncrowded) beach twice but aren’t getting close to anyone while there.  I took my dad to a medical appointment.  School is not opening.  The guideline here is only gathering with five people out of your home 1x per week.  

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6 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Masks DO seem to have worked well here. Since the mask mandate cases are dropping steadily. 

That's interesting. I wonder why there'd be a difference?  In my county we have infection rates north of 15% right now.  Pre-mask mandate - when hardly anyone besides workers were masked in stores - it was well under 10% (6-7?%) I'm not suggesting that the masks have caused the spike (the GF protests sparked it, imo), they just haven't slowed the spread to any significant degree.

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I think family size and other options for kids may be very significant.

I see a few families with only children saying they need to have social for their kids.

However, as a general trend, by and large, I see  people from very small families without a lot of options of relatives to take care of children if parents were to get sick or die being much more careful than larger families.  At least in my area. Or people I know personally at a distance.

Also, of course, younger singles seem less cautious, and it seems to me also couples with no children seem to be less cautious .

 

 

This would be us. My family is 1200 miles away.  My in-laws are 3-4 hours away, and are really not a great option to care for my son if anything happened to us.  I miss going out and doing fun things with people, but I can't take a chance like that. 

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21 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I'd guess AC is a likely one. We saw that effect in a few places. 

And this is why fall in the Northeast is likely to be grim, as we all move indoors. 

My area has had an amazingly comfortable summer (after a spectacular spring), not nearly as hot and humid as it usually is this time of year so more people outside.

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31 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

Are you in the Central Valley? I'm wondering if it's spiking there now because of the heat forcing many to stay in air conditioning. 

Yes.  I don't see how A/C would be a big factor since most people are in single-family homes.  BUT... it would be interesting to find out if there are outbreaks in apartment complexes.  There are so many factors that come in to play.

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People in our community sure seem done with it.

We ordered take out from our local pizza place last night and it will probably be the last time. The place was packed and dh had to wade through the groups outside the door waiting their turn and none of them had masks. And of course the tables full of people inside had no masks. We had over 1200 new cases yesterday for the first time so it really didn’t feel safe.  It stinks. 

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25 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Double layered cotton performed well though.

Absolutely. I was pointing out that there are ways to do masking wrong, so you need to not only look at mask compliance but also correct mask usage. For example, at Trader Joe's, most wear masks, but I counted a handful last time who had their nose sticking out.

Or, another lady at a local grocery who had a mask on her chin and was eating a bun while leisurely roaming the aisles. Yuck.

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10 minutes ago, Joker said:

People in our community sure seem done with it.

We ordered take out from our local pizza place last night and it will probably be the last time. The place was packed and dh had to wade through the groups outside the door waiting their turn and none of them had masks. And of course the tables full of people inside had no masks. We had over 1200 new cases yesterday for the first time so it really didn’t feel safe.  It stinks. 

My town has very few cases through this entire time. Until yesterday our PD posted that there is a outbreak in one of the churches. So now, our library, town offices and other places are closed.

For about a month now I have noticed that people are back to browsing in grocery stores. They just walk around, look at things, bring their entire families. And while masks are required, more than half of those masks are half down their faces. Same with employees.

And there is NO distancing. At all!

We are going to be back to March / April situation very soon, if we are not already there

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14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Making a bubble with grandparents has always been an option for some people as long as everyone cooperates and physical needs can be met. 

We did this through last month then we had to make a choice.  Soccer started up for my teens.  Grandparents said they were fine, to let the kids play and they would just isolate again from us.  It was a tough decision in a world of trade-offs.  I'm sure our bubble will change throughout this year as school and sports change and/or shut down.

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58 minutes ago, square_25 said:

We were at a car dealership last week, and everyone had masks... around their chin. It's like people are treating mask as a magic talisman that keeps COVID away instead of a physical barrier that keeps droplets in... 

that's EXACTLY what they are doing. Which leaves me kind of ticked off, kind of not surprised at people's stupidity

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6 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It does rather make sense that not having people indoors near each other helps more than masks. 

Yep, that's why sending all the kids back to school en masse is such a terrible idea. Masks help a ton in the situations like where you have to go shopping for an hour or you're otherwise near people for a while.  But they are not, as someone else said, a magic talisman. Inside for a long period with an infected person? It's likely the masks make things better than not by reducing viral load, but in those situations the only real solution is rigorous N95 use - or not having people inside together for extended periods!  If someone is so virus sheddy they've caused an outbreak through masks, be super glad people were wearing them, as at least it's lowered their viral load and hopefully most of them won't be as sick as if they'd been breathing the unfiltered air. 

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2 minutes ago, kand said:

If people are together for hours in an enclosed space and someone is infected, eventually there will be aerosolized virus floating in the air and some other people will end up with a high enough dose to get sick

Right.

And some situations may seem random or counterintuitive, just because there are so many variables.

The workplace where everyone masks might end up with more infection, just because one or two people were at an extremely infectious point when they spent hours there. Another place could have less masking, but be lucky enough not to have a superspreader present.

Without the masks, things could have been worse.

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17 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, no need to wear a mask alone on a trail, that’s silly.

Yes, very silly.  I go out for a walk most days, and I don't wear a mask then as I only ever see people from a distance (it's on the street, not a trail, so even when passing it's way more than 6 feet...).  I would wear one on a trail if it were heavily traveled - I actually bought masks that were meant for biking in case I wanted to go on the bike trail, which I think is seeing heavy use (and I don't like biking on the street, 'cause cars).  But I haven't actually gotten to the bike trail yet, so can't report...

But alone outside, yeah, that's a time to get some fresh air!  If I were walking a lightly used trail (narrow, so might have to pass people), I might bring a mask with me and put it on as I saw someone coming, then take it off again...

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2 hours ago, square_25 said:

We were at a car dealership last week, and everyone had masks... around their chin. It's like people are treating masks as a magic talisman that keeps COVID away instead of a physical barrier that keeps droplets in... 

Maybe they read the DOs and DONTs my friend's school put out. For mask wearing: "DON'T expose your chin."  The list did not include don't expose your nose or mouth--I guess they thought that everyone knew that, but when teens get this list.... 

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20 minutes ago, square_25 said:

And we aren’t even requiring masks in NY “as long as social distancing is possible.” This is going to blow up quick.

And NY was doing so well...

Our governor is also having some muddled thinking in regard to schools.  He's just put out an order rolling things back to no more than 50 people gathered outdoors and 20 indoors because our numbers have been ticking a bit back up.  Okay, good.  And then in the next sentence he says it's fine for the kids to go back to school.  Um, dude!  Revere and Lynn (towns next to Chelsea that was so badly hit back in April) currently have the highest rates in the state and just announced fully online.  Our local schools out in the 'burbs here are still having hybrid/part time fantasies.  Which, again, I think could be possibly figured out for elementary students, but middle and high school is not going to work. My brother is a high school teacher, and I just asked what the plan was for subs - he said they'd just cancel that teacher's classes till they got back?  But that could be weeks to months, and all those kids in that class were exposed and possibly exposed a bunch of different kids in their subsequent classes.  That makes no.sense.  Fortunately the plan is not to start back till the 2nd week of Sept, and hopefully by then the rest of the country will have exposed the folly and they'll backtrack.  My brother has spent the whole summer putting together video lessons that will be ready to go.

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2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Absolutely. I was pointing out that there are ways to do masking wrong, so you need to not only look at mask compliance but also correct mask usage. For example, at Trader Joe's, most wear masks, but I counted a handful last time who had their nose sticking out.

Or, another lady at a local grocery who had a mask on her chin and was eating a bun while leisurely roaming the aisles. Yuck.

I have a theory.  Sterile masks, made of effective materials, fitted properly, used perfectly (e.g. medical professionals in a hospital setting), may be useful in slowing the transmission. 

In a similar way, birth control pills, used perfectly, slow the transmission of pregnancy 🙂 But, in the real world the pill's effectiveness rate is around 91% (still not bad, but if you really, really don't want to get pregnant, that's a fair amount of risk.) link  

Meanwhile, you have masks made of any and everything (surgical masks, two-layer cotton, bandannas, single-layer stretchy t-shirt material, fleece gaters...), often worn with visible gaps in the area above the nose and on the sides, usually not washed between wearing.  Now throw in people unconsciously touching and adjusting their masks, as well as bearded mask wearers.  After all this you get a generally ineffective method of slowing the spread.   Oh, and don't forget that at private gatherings, nearly everyone is mask-less - and the government cannot (and should not) regulate these private spaces.  This would explain California's spike, in spite of have a mask mandate for public spaces.   I think the reduction in effectiveness is far greater than the pill's ~ 10%.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I have a theory.  Sterile masks, made of effective materials, fitted properly, used perfectly (e.g. medical professionals in a hospital setting), may be useful in slowing the transmission. 

In a similar way, birth control pills, used perfectly, slow the transmission of pregnancy 🙂 But, in the real world the pill's effectiveness rate is around 91% (still not bad, but if you really, really don't want to get pregnant, that's a fair amount of risk.) link  

Meanwhile, you have masks made of any and everything (surgical masks, two-layer cotton, bandannas, single-layer stretchy t-shirt material, fleece gaters...), often worn with visible gaps in the area above the nose and on the sides, usually not washed between wearing.  Now throw in people unconsciously touching and adjusting their masks, as well as bearded mask wearers.  After all this you get a generally ineffective method of slowing the spread.   Oh, and don't forget that at private gatherings, nearly everyone is mask-less - and the government cannot (and should not) regulate these private spaces.  This would explain California's spike, in spite of have a mask mandate for public spaces.   I think the reduction in effectiveness is far greater than the pill's ~ 10%.

No one is even disagreeing with you here.  No one ever said cloth masks were 100% effective, only that they hugely helped.  Yes, like condoms or the pill.  Won't prevent 100% of babies, but used properly is going to make way less babies than unprotected sex. Or STDs.  No one said at the height of the AIDS crisis that since condoms didn't prevent 100% of HIV transmission, no one should bother using them! And the more careful you are, the better the prevention. And around here, since people realize this, almost everyone is wearing well, or at least decently, fitted masks properly.  I rarely see nose-peek, and only the occasional bandanna, and no naked faces in stores.  

In parts of the country with mask-scoffers, even when they do wear them, they seem to want to prove a point that they don't want to.  So they wear loose bandannas.  Or leave their noses out, or just wear them on their chins.  Or leave huge gaps.  Or like the guy in the meme (head over to Covid memes for visuals) who went to Walmart with a yellow lace thong panty on his face.  Yep, if you're going to make it a joke, the joke's going to be on you.  If that's what people are behaving like, well, the transmission may be less than if no masks were worn, but the effectiveness rate is going to be much lower than if people weren't being scofflaws.

This does not mean that well-fitting masks worn in the proper way won't cut way down on transmission, especially if everyone is using them - because, again, they do their best work in cutting down on droplets from infected people who don't realize they're infected, and thus there is less virus in the air for everyone else's mask to filter out.  

Edited by Matryoshka
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2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

We bike early morning because of that on the sidewalk as we have kids with us maskless. What mask did you buy ? We bought the reebok masks which came and the underarmor one is yet to ship. 

I mask up while nordic walking.

I bought a mask that was designed originally as an anti-pollution mask for bikers.  It has two exhale vents.  It's likely not perfect, but again, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good!   It's not this exact one, but it looks pretty much like this:

image.jpeg.b7b8eb5db404b63592c9efc6bc467e80.jpeg

I'm waiting on the UnderArmour masks in the hopes that maybe they will work for the gym - they're also adding air cleaning tech..

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The vents protect you but don't protect others. So you're better protected... and if you're contagious and don't know, you're not helping others as much as a regular two layer cloth mask with a filter would. The vent is designed to expel your breath.

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Just now, square_25 said:

Are vents better than not having a mask? (I really don't know -- haven't looked into it.) 

Most, if not all of these vents are one way.  So an exhale vent would let air from the user out into the world.  Which would make it less safe for those not wearing a mask and not social distancing if they are nearby.  A N95 has a one way exhale vent, btw.  That's why some people wear a cloth mask over their N95 to filter the air going out. 

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3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The vents protect you but don't protect others. So you're better protected... and if you're contagious and don't know, you're not helping others as much as a regular two layer cloth mask with a filter would. The vent is designed to expel your breath.

Yes.  The vents are one-way.  I'm figuring zipping along on the bike trail outdoors I'd be less worried about the possibility of infecting others, and still better than nothing...?   But again, I haven't actually gone out and used them yet.  I bought those way back at the beginning of this thing.

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11 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes.  The vents are one-way.  I'm figuring zipping along on the bike trail outdoors I'd be less worried about the possibility of infecting others, and still better than nothing...?   But again, I haven't actually gone out and used them yet.  I bought those way back at the beginning of this thing.

Yeah. That seems fair. Though really, if that's the case and you're distanced most of the time... I don't know if I'd bother. 

I'm seeing them more and more in situations without a good excuse like that and they're starting to tick me off. I think people don't realize that they do very little to prevent you spreading the disease, which is the greater point of masks.

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12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yeah. That seems fair. Though really, if that's the case and you're distanced most of the time... I don't know if I'd bother. 

I'm seeing them more and more in situations without a good excuse like that and they're starting to tick me off. I think people don't realize that they do very little to prevent you spreading the disease, which is the greater point of masks.

I'll admit that for the bike trail, I think there are likely to be a lot of people without masks (because exercise and outdoors), and I was thinking of the mask more for myself (not the usual reason) in case I happened to be in the wake of someone germy...  I've heard it's a bad idea to jog in someone's wake (like 6' behind someone), so I figured the same was likely true for biking...

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4 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

I don’t think that it helps the conversation to revert to calling people “stupid.” Do you think that all of the people in Denmark are stupid? The epidemiologists there do not recommend mask wearing, but they do recommend social distancing. A half dozen countries recommend 1 meter of distance, another half dozen 1.5m, and yet others 2.0. All are following “science.”

 

People in Denmark are certainly not stupid. One thing that is helping them a lot right now is that the fundamentals of the society are built upon concern for the common good, not individualism. You are correct that mask-wearing has not been widespread in Denmark. However, the situation is not static.

Denmark's cases are on the upswing with a particularly alarming outbreak in Aarhus, the 2nd largest city. Lots of changes were announced within the last two days. Masks are now required in Aarhus on public transport, and local mask shortages are being reported. Yesterday, the PM released a long statement. Here is my imperfect translation of part of her statement, specifically the part about masks: "I know very well that this is new for most of us. It is not something we are used to here in Scandinavia. But we must learn to be. I believe that we have only seen the beginning of mask usage. And, as a government we can not rule out that is will become necessary to introduce it as a requirement in more sectors of society."

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5 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

I just read that fleece neck gaiters are worse than nothing. Bandanas don't do much good, either.

Emily

Is the problem with bandanas the fabric or that they are too loose?  They are more popular with males in my area.  Many that I have seen have had less gapping than masks, the aren't pulled down below their noses and the bottom flap hangs far below the chin (sometimes even tucked into a shirt).  

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17 hours ago, square_25 said:

I'd guess AC is a likely one. We saw that effect in a few places. 

And this is why fall in the Northeast is likely to be grim, as we all move indoors. 

I'm trying to feel a little bit hopeful because it's been so hot and humid with crazy air quality warnings that a lot of people I know are already huddling inside with air conditioning the majority of the time.  

I wonder if heating systems are better or worse than air conditioning.  Or the same. 

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1 minute ago, Where's Toto? said:

I'm trying to feel a little bit hopeful because it's been so hot and humid with crazy air quality warnings that a lot of people I know are already huddling inside with air conditioning the majority of the time.  

I wonder if heating systems are better or worse than air conditioning.  Or the same. 

 

It may depend a great deal on the actual system, for example, a steam radiator could be very different than an unfiltered forced air blower system.

But closed up indoors with others for long duration is probably a problem regardless of system. 

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1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Right, so the right thing to do is to make sure people are wearing appropriate masks. People have tested these, you know -- double layer quilter's cotton without gaps works QUITE well. 

(I don't think sterility has anything to do with it, by the way. Wearing a bacteria-laden mask is probably bad for you but doesn't much matter for COVID spread.) 

How realistic is that goal?  

 

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12 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

How realistic is that goal?  

Perfectly realistic, as long as people aren't being a**es about it.  Really, everyone here wears masks indoors and virtually all I've seen are worn properly.  This is.not.rocket.science.

The problem with non compliance and bad fits is 99% people being buttheads.  Sorry.  I can't help you with buttheads.  That's an entirely different problem.

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17 minutes ago, Pen said:

It may depend a great deal on the actual system, for example, a steam radiator could be very different than an unfiltered forced air blower system.

But closed up indoors with others for long duration is probably a problem regardless of system. 

I am somewhat hopeful that even forced hot air heating is better than air conditioning, as the virus breaks down easily with heat, and is preserved by cold...  the question I guess is 'how hot is hot enough'.  And it's likely not perfect even if it's hot air, unless there's some kind of virus killing tech (UV or nickel-foam) added to the vents.

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1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

No one is even disagreeing with you here.  No one ever said cloth masks were 100% effective, only that they hugely helped.  Yes, like condoms or the pill.  Won't prevent 100% of babies, but used properly is going to make way less babies than unprotected sex. Or STDs.  No one said at the height of the AIDS crisis that since condoms didn't prevent 100% of HIV transmission, no one should bother using them! And the more careful you are, the better the prevention. And around here, since people realize this, almost everyone is wearing well, or at least decently, fitted masks properly.  I rarely see nose-peek, and only the occasional bandanna, and no naked faces in stores.  

In parts of the country with mask-scoffers, even when they do wear them, they seem to want to prove a point that they don't want to.  So they wear loose bandannas.  Or leave their noses out, or just wear them on their chins.  Or leave huge gaps.  Or like the guy in the meme (head over to Covid memes for visuals) who went to Walmart with a yellow lace thong panty on his face.  Yep, if you're going to make it a joke, the joke's going to be on you.  If that's what people are behaving like, well, the transmission may be less than if no masks were worn, but the effectiveness rate is going to be much lower than if people weren't being scofflaws.

This does not mean that well-fitting masks worn in the proper way won't cut way down on transmission, especially if everyone is using them - because, again, they do their best work in cutting down on droplets from infected people who don't realize they're infected, and thus there is less virus in the air for everyone else's mask to filter out.  

My point is that they're not being used effectively and it's not realistic to expect them to be used effectively by enough people to actually slow transmission.  That's my theory, anyway.  I see people all the time who are well-intentioned, doing their part... but their cotton masks gave gaps above the nose.  Basically, there's "effective in a lab" and "effective in the real world."  I think masks fail on the latter point. 

The most ironic outbreak semi-local to me is at a county Public Health office.  White collar public health workers, y'all.  Those employees are masked and motivated.  And still, the disease spread.  I had my mammogram done a month ago (yay.) and "behind the scenes" (treatment area, away from the lobby) every worker but the mammogram tech was unmasked.  She was fine with me unmasking for the procedure.  No outbreaks at that facility.  

Anyway, I look at all this stuff and I think: this doesn't make sense.  If masks help slow the spread then why aren't they helping to slow the spread?  What I hear from our governor and what I see with my own two eyes don't match.  Things aren't adding up.  I don't want others to get hurt, but I also don't want to just blindly agree with whatever the powers that be declare is true or good or necessary, even when it clearly contradicts what I see.  So, on the point of masks being useful at slowing the transmission on a practical level, I remain unconvinced.  I'll continue wearing the mask to shop because it's not a hill worth dying on for me, but I have no delusions that I'm performing some great public good by doing it.

I don't really have anything else to add to this.  I wish you well.  Stay healthy ❤️ 

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23 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I am somewhat hopeful that even forced hot air heating is better than air conditioning, as the virus breaks down easily with heat, and is preserved by cold...  the question I guess is 'how hot is hot enough'.  And it's likely not perfect even if it's hot air, unless there's some kind of virus killing tech (UV or nickel-foam) added to the vents.

 

70degrees Celsius for 5 minutes according to one thing I read.  Possibly/probably lower temperature  for longer or hotter for shorter—so that disinfection with hot iron or  in ovens at heat less than what would cause a fire was possible for some items. 

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