Church and Covid19: How should we do this safely?

[Harriet Vane]

Folks, I have seen many articles in the newspaper or posted by acquaintances on FB about church. Some vilify large gatherings, especially those with singing and clapping. Others decry the perceived loss of civil liberties.

So the question on the table is this:

How do we continue in the practice of our faith during a deadly pandemic? 

This question applies broadly to any person who engages in habits, rituals, or routines related to their sincerely-held religious beliefs. 

 

My thoughts:

As a Christian, I understand that I must pray, worship, and study to learn about  and connect with God, and I understand that it is important to meet with others who share my beliefs for corporate worship and our mutual encouragement.

However, I also understand and believe that this virus is infectious and deadly, so from a scientific perspective, I fully embrace the need for preventive measures of wearing masks, washing hands and surfaces, and also reactive measures of isolating when ill and isolating when directly exposed to someone who is infected with coronavirus. 

Throughout history, people of faith have had to adjust their religious practices in response to what is going on around them, from pandemics such as bubonic plague to cultural norms to specifically targeted persecutions.  And for the record, I do not see any evidence that churches are being specifically targeted in the Covid19 pandemic--ALL indoor gatherings and ALL large group gatherings are dangerous, including sports and conventions, etc.

SO--I think the only answer is for churches to organize into small groups that meet in one of two ways: masked and distanced in someone's yard OR via an online platform such as Zoom or Skype, etc. Pastors can continue to broadcast their teaching, and they can also visit the small groups in turn. Members of the congregation who have talents can share those talents in the pastor's broadcast. Individuals can choose to meet regularly for prayer and for Bible study, and should be intentional in doing so. Churches who assist with organizing and administrating these small group and one-on-one connections have a better chance of preserving the lives of the people while fully supporting the growth and practice of faith, both for individuals and for the larger congregation.

In brief: We must embrace small group connections, and we must implement infection control protocols thoroughly either through masks/distancing/sanitization or online connection. 

AND it's reasonable to say that these measures are not the same as it was before and to mourn what we have lost. The Bible includes many laments--it is right that we weep for the loss of beloved rituals even as we strive to create new ones. 

[Ali in OR]

In our church we have a lot of left-brained, science-trained engineer type people and also almost everyone is over 50, the majority probably over 70. We have no problem putting virus considerations first. We have weekly zoom mini-worship services and bible studies and we've done 2 parking lot services. We have a plan for when we go back to in-building worship but we're not there yet. And thankfully most people are in agreement with this course of action.

[Spy Car]

Zoom.

Bill

[Pen]

Online.

Audio cassettes or video recordings of sermons etc for people without online capacities.

A dedicated time of personal individual home worship — but when you know others will be also doing so in a corporate spiritual way, just not physically near each other. 

Community assistance, good works and supportiveness, with things like errands (leaving items outside no social), supportive phone calls, especially for people who live alone and may be very lonely, or anyone needing emotional connection to at least have one on one talk time safely over a phone...

[desertflower]

To worship safely, via zoom.

Jesus has preached, on a hill, in a boat, and told his disciples to preach from the rooftops.

Paul worshipped God in jail, preached at market places, by a riverbank and in the Hill of Mars (Areopargus).

[TechWife]

I honestly don’t think there is a good way to have large gatherings. My faith tradition doesn’t require in person formal meetings from a doctrinal standpoint but does require a “gathering together.” For me, this has meant using zoom. My church started meeting in person a few weeks ago but we have no plans to attend anytime soon. 
 

[PrincessMommy]

12 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I honestly don’t think there is a good way to have large gatherings. My faith tradition doesn’t require in person formal meetings from a doctrinal standpoint but does require a “gathering together.” For me, this has meant using zoom. My church started meeting in person a few weeks ago but we have no plans to attend anytime soon. 
 

that is not true.  If the purpose of the service is the Eucharist then you need to gather together around the altar with a priest/pastor and receive communion. No DIY at home in sacramental churches.  If the purpose for gathering together is to hear a good sermon, then yes, you are correct.

We have services on a  limited basis at church, we make it available to those who cannot come on YT.  We have fellowship on Zoom.

 

[Ali in OR]

10 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

that is not true.  If the purpose of the service is the Eucharist then you need to gather together around the altar with a priest/pastor and receive communion. No DIY at home in sacramental churches.  If the purpose for gathering together is to hear a good sermon, then yes, you are correct.

 

I'll disagree. We are also members of a sacramental church that does communion over zoom once or twice a month. When the elements are blessed, they are blessed, remotely in this case. God is powerful enough for that. "Do this in remembrance of me." And not a lot of other specific how-to instructions in the bible.

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

that is not true.  If the purpose of the service is the Eucharist then you need to gather together around the altar with a priest/pastor and receive communion. No DIY at home in sacramental churches.  If the purpose for gathering together is to hear a good sermon, then yes, you are correct.

We have services on a  limited basis at church, we make it available to those who cannot come on YT.  We have fellowship on Zoom.

 

I was speaking of my faith tradition, as I said in the post. I do stand by my statement that there is no good way to have a large gathering and that is true regardless of faith tradition. I didn’t say you couldn’t gather or that you shouldn’t gather, but that there is no good way to do it safely. 

[PrincessMommy]

6 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

I'll disagree. We are also members of a sacramental church that does communion over zoom once or twice a month. When the elements are blessed, they are blessed, remotely in this case. God is powerful enough for that. "Do this in remembrance of me." And not a lot of other specific how-to instructions in the bible.

THen maybe I should have said *most* sacramental churches.  It certainly not what could happen in an EO, LCMS, or Catholic church.  

[PrincessMommy]

3 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I was speaking of my faith tradition, as I said in the post. I do stand by my statement that there is no good way to have a large gathering and that is true regardless of faith tradition. I didn’t say you couldn’t gather or that you shouldn’t gather, but that there is no good way to do it safely. 

Ah, thank you for clarifying.  

I do think services can be done safely, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.  Whether churches decide to do it is another thing all together.  That's up to their leadership. 

[Harriet Vane]

25 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

that is not true.  If the purpose of the service is the Eucharist then you need to gather together around the altar with a priest/pastor and receive communion. No DIY at home in sacramental churches.  If the purpose for gathering together is to hear a good sermon, then yes, you are correct.

We have services on a  limited basis at church, we make it available to those who cannot come on YT.  We have fellowship on Zoom.

 

 

This makes me wonder about two options. One is for drive-through Eucharist. If the elements are blessed and handled with gloves and masks, perhaps handed off in paper (recyclable) disposables, that might be safe? The other option I see is for the roving priest to administer the Eucharist to small groups when visiting them, again appropriately masked, gloved, etc. For the second option I am drawing from the idea that folks in remote areas (think pioneer days) have often needed to share a spiritual leader, who travels between groups, so that each group receives the benefit of teaching or services regularly but not weekly.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Harriet Vane

[EmseB]

If large, undistanced, questionably masked, outdoor gatherings with various levels of chanting and yelling do not cause spread, then I think churches would be okay to meet in the same way (sub singing for yelling)? We have the real life test cases for this, no?

[PrincessMommy]

16 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

This makes me wonder about two options. One is for drive-through Eucharist. If the elements are blessed and handled with gloves and masks, perhaps handed off in paper (recyclable) disposables, that might be safe? The other option I see is for the roving priest to administer the Eucharist to small groups when visiting them, again appropriately masked, gloved, etc. For the second option I am drawing from the idea that folks in remote areas (think pioneer days) have often needed to share a spiritual leader, who travels between groups, so that each group receives the benefit of teaching or services regularly but not weekly.

definitely that is an option.  Also, the priest will regularly take part of the Eucharist that has been set aside to those who are sick or home/hospital-bound.  That would be no different.

[TechWife]

13 minutes ago, EmseB said:

If large, undistanced, questionably masked, outdoor gatherings with various levels of chanting and yelling do not cause spread, then I think churches would be okay to meet in the same way (sub singing for yelling)? We have the real life test cases for this, no?

We don’t have good enough contact tracing set up for those types of gatherings for a definitive answer to that question. The large gatherings I’ve seen evidence of had widespread mask usage. Indoor HVAC systems that recirculate air also throw a wrench in the comparison. It is an apples to oranges comparison. 
 

[sassenach]

We have online plus in-person outdoor, masked, and spaced gatherings. We also have both offerings at a small group level. I will say that the corporate gathering is important. Just small groups is not the same. Thankfully, we’re a small church so we can easily gather as a whole church without it feeling overwhelming. I can’t see ANY reason to deny a church outdoor gathering if they can do it in a spaced out fashion. Winter will be a challenge but we don’t live in snow- just lots of rain. We’ll find a way. 

[AmandaVT]

Outside or online.

My denomination asks us to "be the church" - and being the church does not require being inside a building. We have been reaching more congregants and have higher pledges than normal for this time of year this year because we meet online now. We have people from different states watch our worship service and join us for virtual coffee hour. Our lay readers have been finding beautiful outdoor spots to read the week's reading. The way we're looking at it is if one person gets sick with COVID due to being inside a church with us, it's too many. Our ministries have been meeting regularly via zoom, and we have a few meetings throughout the week on zoom as well. We have a few members that do not have computers. For now, we mail them Dvds but we are looking into buying them tablets with Zoom pre-loaded and paying for their Internet access until we can meet again in person. We've also been able to continue our ministries that feed the homeless and poor communities. We are doing 450 meals a week - that does require a couple of folks to come into the church building to use the kitchen, but we have protocols set up for safety that people are following.

[Ali in OR]

41 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

THen maybe I should have said *most* sacramental churches.  It certainly not what could happen in an EO, LCMS, or Catholic church.  

Not true--we're LCMS!

[ktgrok]

57 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

that is not true.  If the purpose of the service is the Eucharist then you need to gather together around the altar with a priest/pastor and receive communion. No DIY at home in sacramental churches.  If the purpose for gathering together is to hear a good sermon, then yes, you are correct.

We have services on a  limited basis at church, we make it available to those who cannot come on YT.  We have fellowship on Zoom.

 

I'll agree that you cannot do a virtual communion in many denominations, my own included. But I'd also say that in the history of the Church, there have been vast periods of time when communion was not received by the laity on a regular basis. And that most (maybe all?) of these traditions have a practice of "spiritual communion" for when one cannot receive in person. I know the Catholic church does, and my Episcopal Parish is encouraging people to do the same.  (also, see below for another option we are doing)

32 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

This makes me wonder about two options. One is for drive-through Eucharist. If the elements are blessed and handled with gloves and masks, perhaps handed off in paper (recyclable) disposables, that might be safe?

We are doing an even safer version of this. The parishoners can pick up pre-sanctified communion at the church on Thursday or Friday, and then consume them on Sunday during the service. Since the virus doesn't live on surfaces long, especially something porous like the communion wafers, it should be safe by Sunday when consumed. The presanctified elements are in a special area right inside the doors of the church building, in view of the person in the office but you don't have to get within more than 15 feet of them to get it. So contactless pick up, but supervised so random people are not coming in and desecrating anything. (and you are required to wear a mask in the building)

Some are not in favor of laity transporting the elements, but laity do that for the sick as well in most congregations, as the priest can't get to everyone. We are instructed to transport and store them respectfully, consume everything, etc. I even rinse the containers with plain water and pour that water into my flower garden, not into the sink, etc. So it can be done respectfully, and in balancing respect for Jesus within the Eucharist and the image of God in every human, I think not doing communion in person is reasonable, at least in hot spots like where I am. 

I'd be open to outdoor, distanced services as well, but have not seen anyone in my area doing it. Probably because it is a zillion degrees, what feels like 100 percent humidity, and hurricane season and thunderstorm season. But I love the idea. If I could attend outdoors, on a blanket more than 6 ft from everyone else, masked, I'd go. 

 

[MrsMommy]

14 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

Not true--we're LCMS!

The official statement of the LCMS is a big NO to online communion.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, MrsMommy said:

The official statement of the LCMS is a big NO to online communion.

I know in the Catholic Church, and I assume in most liturgical traditions, there are VERY specific rubrics for how a valid sacrament can be done. My understanding is that in most it involves the priest holding his hands above the elements. So that's the reason it isn't possible by distance. 

But presanctified communion can be done, via pick up or delivery. 

[MrsMommy]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I know in the Catholic Church, and I assume in most liturgical traditions, there are VERY specific rubrics for how a valid sacrament can be done. My understanding is that in most it involves the priest holding his hands above the elements. So that's the reason it isn't possible by distance. 

But presanctified communion can be done, via pick up or delivery. 

As far as I understand, in the LCMS it's still a no. Presanctified communion is not to be done. Doesn't mean some churches aren't doing it, but as far as synod is concerned, they're in error.

[EmseB]

48 minutes ago, TechWife said:

We don’t have good enough contact tracing set up for those types of gatherings for a definitive answer to that question. The large gatherings I’ve seen evidence of had widespread mask usage. Indoor HVAC systems that recirculate air also throw a wrench in the comparison. It is an apples to oranges comparison. 
 

I'm talking about outdoor church. It is not apples to oranges. I'm talking about church meeting in the same way these other large gatherings are conducted.

Everyone claims the large gatherings they have seen are well masked. I have noticed the opposite, but we can go around the bend on that all day long. I'm simply saying that if those gatherings are not causing spread, as many insist base on hotspots, timing of spikes, etc., then churches should be able to operate in the same way.

It gets over 100*F here every day. We can still possibly meet outside if we start early enough.

[PrincessMommy]

1 hour ago, Harriet Vane said:

 

This makes me wonder about two options. One is for drive-through Eucharist. If the elements are blessed and handled with gloves and masks, perhaps handed off in paper (recyclable) disposables, that might be safe? The other option I see is for the roving priest to administer the Eucharist to small groups when visiting them, again appropriately masked, gloved, etc. For the second option I am drawing from the idea that folks in remote areas (think pioneer days) have often needed to share a spiritual leader, who travels between groups, so that each group receives the benefit of teaching or services regularly but not weekly.

 

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

definitely that is an option.  Also, the priest will regularly take part of the Eucharist that has been set aside to those who are sick or home/hospital-bound.  That would be no different.

I just realized that I may have misunderstood you.  I am speaking only for EO parishes but we cannot do a service with just a priest.  We do not have private liturgies. It is against Canon law. So any  Eucharistic has to have people there.  Even if it were one other person, there needs to be the fellowship of believers present.   The priest cannot perform the service alone.  

So, we'd still have to have a service (with people) before the Eucharist could be distributed.  Hope this clarifies.

Someone mentioned Presanctified.  EO are not permitted to perform Presanctified except during Great Lent.  

[PrincessMommy]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I'll agree that you cannot do a virtual communion in many denominations, my own included. But I'd also say that in the history of the Church, there have been vast periods of time when communion was not received by the laity on a regular basis. And that most (maybe all?) of these traditions have a practice of "spiritual communion" for when one cannot receive in person. I know the Catholic church does, and my Episcopal Parish is encouraging people to do the same.  (also, see below for another option we are doing)

 

 

That is true.  In many former soviet bloc countries people take communion about once a year, if that often.   It has only become quite regular in the West thanks to the writings of some EO authors such as Fr. Alexandr Schmemann.   In some parishes it  is the practice to have confession before communion - so people take communion less frequently.   But, just because it became the norm in the 18th century doesn't mean it is ideal.

St. John Chrysostom and other Church Fathers said quite a bit about the importance of frequent communion.  I  prefer to think about the monastics who went into the wilderness (St. Anthony the Great, St. Mary of Egypt, etc).  They did not receive communion for years but their spiritual life was beautiful.  Sadly, I am no St. Mary of Egypt.  I think I need it more frequently for "the healing of body and soul."  🙂 

 

[SounderChick]

So obviously different Faith's have different needs in how they commune.  They should meet their requirements in safest way possible.  So some that would mean just zoom, some that would be small outdoor groups.  I don't think their is any faith I know of that must have large groups indoors to meet their needs.  

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

As far as I understand, in the LCMS it's still a no. Presanctified communion is not to be done. Doesn't mean some churches aren't doing it, but as far as synod is concerned, they're in error.

Interesting! In regards to this situation, or just in general it is not done? Is communion taken to the shut ins and such, in normal times? (curious, not judging!)

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

 

I just realized that I may have misunderstood you.  I am speaking only for EO parishes but we cannot do a service with just a priest.  We do not have private liturgies. It is against Canon law. So any  Eucharistic has to have people there.  Even if it were one other person, there needs to be the fellowship of believers present.   The priest cannot perform the service alone.  

So, we'd still have to have a service (with people) before the Eucharist could be distributed.  Hope this clarifies.

Someone mentioned Presanctified.  EO are not permitted to perform Presanctified except during Great Lent.  

Catholic churches I believe also require another person. What most are doing is it is the priest, a deacon, and a cantor. Widely spaced and in masks, and shown via Zoom. 

I didn't know that about presanctified communion with the EO. Do you not take communion to the sick then, after services? Or does a priest go himself, if needed, and say another liturgy? Again, curious, not judging 🙂

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

That is true.  In many former soviet bloc countries people take communion about once a year, if that often.   It has only become quite regular in the West thanks to the writings of some EO authors such as Fr. Alexandr Schmemann.   In some parishes it  is the practice to have confession before communion - so people take communion less frequently.   But, just because it became the norm in the 18th century doesn't mean it is ideal.

 

 

Oh, it's not ideal. None of this pandemic stuff is ideal. But a priest becoming a minister of disease is not ideal either 😞

[MrsMommy]

29 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Interesting! In regards to this situation, or just in general it is not done? Is communion taken to the shut ins and such, in normal times? (curious, not judging!)

Catholic churches I believe also require another person. What most are doing is it is the priest, a deacon, and a cantor. Widely spaced and in masks, and shown via Zoom. 

I didn't know that about presanctified communion with the EO. Do you not take communion to the sick then, after services? Or does a priest go himself, if needed, and say another liturgy? Again, curious, not judging 🙂

Oh, it's not ideal. None of this pandemic stuff is ideal. But a priest becoming a minister of disease is not ideal either 😞

Yes, the pastor is supposed to take the Sacrament to shut-ins, the hospitalized, etc. on a regular basis. This has always been true, but the Synod recently published a document regarding this time specifically because there were so many questions about how to proceed, and some churches trying to do their own thing.

[Ali in OR]

2 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

As far as I understand, in the LCMS it's still a no. Presanctified communion is not to be done. Doesn't mean some churches aren't doing it, but as far as synod is concerned, they're in error.

In searching online, I can see their statement of March 20th on this issue. Looks like there has also been pushback and further discussion. I have no doubt that some of the midwestern LCMS churches I've been in would frown on this. Looks like the west coast is more open to the idea (surprise, surprise).

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, MrsMommy said:

Yes, the pastor is supposed to take the Sacrament to shut-ins, the hospitalized, etc. on a regular basis. This has always been true, but the Synod recently published a document regarding this time specifically because there were so many questions about how to proceed, and some churches trying to do their own thing.

gotcha. So I imagine congregations must stay pretty small?

[AmandaVT]

3 hours ago, EmseB said:

I'm talking about outdoor church. It is not apples to oranges. I'm talking about church meeting in the same way these other large gatherings are conducted.

Everyone claims the large gatherings they have seen are well masked. I have noticed the opposite, but we can go around the bend on that all day long. I'm simply saying that if those gatherings are not causing spread, as many insist base on hotspots, timing of spikes, etc., then churches should be able to operate in the same way.

It gets over 100*F here every day. We can still possibly meet outside if we start early enough.

DH took this picture at one of VT's BLM protests. That's our statehouse. I'm not sure if every person is masked, but most are and they're sitting in (mostly) socially distanced clusters. We had 0 protest related spikes and are holding steady at having only small daily number of cases here. I also don't remember hearing about big spikes from outdoor beach gatherings when beaches started opening across the country, but you seem to post about the protests in almost every thread, so I thought I'd help out with a picture of a protest. (DH had zoomed in a bunch when he took this picture and stayed more than 6ft from people at all times).

I would agree that outdoor church is better than indoor church and zoom church is safest. 

 

 

[MrsMommy]

50 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

gotcha. So I imagine congregations must stay pretty small?

Not necessarily...there are some pretty large congregations, but they also tend to have larger pastoral staffs.

[iamonlyone]

I wish some church would offer an outdoor option in our city. I am Zooming, but I'm in the minority still Zooming services at our church. I am really surprised churches aren't thinking outside the box more around here and doing an early morning (it's very hot and humid) outdoor service. Our church even has a large tract of property behind the church. It would be very doable to have an outdoor service.

[TCB]

5 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

Outside or online.

My denomination asks us to "be the church" - and being the church does not require being inside a building. We have been reaching more congregants and have higher pledges than normal for this time of year this year because we meet online now. We have people from different states watch our worship service and join us for virtual coffee hour. Our lay readers have been finding beautiful outdoor spots to read the week's reading. The way we're looking at it is if one person gets sick with COVID due to being inside a church with us, it's too many. Our ministries have been meeting regularly via zoom, and we have a few meetings throughout the week on zoom as well. We have a few members that do not have computers. For now, we mail them Dvds but we are looking into buying them tablets with Zoom pre-loaded and paying for their Internet access until we can meet again in person. We've also been able to continue our ministries that feed the homeless and poor communities. We are doing 450 meals a week - that does require a couple of folks to come into the church building to use the kitchen, but we have protocols set up for safety that people are following.

I so wish our church would do even some of these things. I can hardly bear to watch the online streaming of the service because they are all close together, shaking hands, singing, no mask to be seen anywhere and with some very vulnerable older people up singing in the worship team.

[TCB]

4 hours ago, EmseB said:

I'm talking about outdoor church. It is not apples to oranges. I'm talking about church meeting in the same way these other large gatherings are conducted.

Everyone claims the large gatherings they have seen are well masked. I have noticed the opposite, but we can go around the bend on that all day long. I'm simply saying that if those gatherings are not causing spread, as many insist base on hotspots, timing of spikes, etc., then churches should be able to operate in the same way.

It gets over 100*F here every day. We can still possibly meet outside if we start early enough.

You know my feeling is who cares what they say about the protests. Two wrongs don't make a right and in my opinion the church should be setting the example not saying if you can do it so can we. Now, having said that, I do think that it is possible to do things safely outside. I wish our church would try to do it safely but they are only interested in everything back to normal, although they did say they were going to go back to no contact services since we are having quite an increase in our area, which means no hugging or shaking hands.

ETA I have not watched the service yet to confirm that people are complying with that.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TCB

[ktgrok]

33 minutes ago, MrsMommy said:

Not necessarily...there are some pretty large congregations, but they also tend to have larger pastoral staffs.

OH, duh! lol. that makes sense.

26 minutes ago, iamonlyone said:

I wish some church would offer an outdoor option in our city. I am Zooming, but I'm in the minority still Zooming services at our church. I am really surprised churches aren't thinking outside the box more around here and doing an early morning (it's very hot and humid) outdoor service. Our church even has a large tract of property behind the church. It would be very doable to have an outdoor service.

Me too. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Our diocese has started with in-person masses this month, but with social distancing and required masks.  They have a cantor and they ask that people who wish to sing so do quietly under their mask.  The cantor is at least 15 feet from the nearest seat.  The priest and deacon are much farther away.  They have removed the missalettes/hymnals, but they publish the worship aids on the website so you can follow along with a smart phone. The congregation doesn't line up for communion, but the priest and deacon take it to the those in the pews.  Due to distancing, there is always an empty pew in front of an attendee or family.  They require on-line sign ups to attend to limit the numbers.  And there are specific procedures for entering and leaving to maintain the distance.  And the church looks really empty.  There have been attempts to do "drive-in" masses in the parking lot, but there were technical difficulties that needed to be worked out. 

But, dh and I still watch the live-stream mass and don't attend.  I don't feel safe yet with large groups.  So, I haven't received communion since March.  I am not "homebound" so I have not signed up to receive communion that way.  

Prior to covid, we didn't have much of a church family due to a number of reasons, but mostly how we were treated when my kid came out as trans.  At that time, our beloved pastor had just retired and the two pastors we have had since are not very "pastoral".  Then we had an associate pastor who was spouting all sorts of conservative garbage that really didn't fit with my understanding of the church teachings (makes Pope Benedict look liberal.)  I forced myself to go to mass out of obligation.  My faith life had been teetering on the brink for several years.  

Prior to Covid, we were looking into switching parishes, and had been attending mass at different parishes, but we hadn't found a place that felt good enough to leave a parish that had been our home for nearly 30 years.  There is a pastor that I love at another parish (he used to be an associate at our parish) and I watch his live streams for daily mass and read his blog.  But the congregation there is too politically conservative for me to feel safe there.  

So for me, faith life is pretty much a solitary thing.  

[PrincessMommy]

I wish our parish would offer outside liturgy too, but the heat and humidity is just unbearable right now.  My daughter's parish offers it only when the temp and dew-point are below a certain level.  

One year our air conditioning went out when it was above 95* and the humidity was the usual awful.   It was pretty difficult to get through the service and I wasn't wearing vestments.   I think in areas where it doesn't get much above 85* and the humidity is low it would probably be a great options for churches, but those of us south of the mason-dixon line are melting even at 9AM.

 

[PrincessMommy]

3 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

I didn't know that about presanctified communion with the EO. Do you not take communion to the sick then, after services? Or does a priest go himself, if needed, and say another liturgy? Again, curious, not judging 🙂

Oh, it's not ideal. None of this pandemic stuff is ideal. But a priest becoming a minister of disease is not ideal either 😞

There is a reserved portion of the Eucharist that is kept behind for the sick or home bound.  I've never heard it called the presanctified.   But the liturgy during Lent is called "The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts".   So it probably is technically called presanctified.  

[ktgrok]

Yes, I'm thinking it would have to be a dawn service, to be at all tolerable. Or at least not later than 7 or 8am...probably 7am. 

We have a patio area, basically a courtyard between the sanctuary and parish hall. Parts are covered, parts are not. It could work. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, PrincessMommy said:

There is a reserved portion of the Eucharist that is kept behind for the sick or home bound.  I've never heard it called the presanctified.   But the liturgy during Lent is called "The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts".   So it probably is technically called presanctified.  

Yes, just the technical name for "leftover" 🙂

[ktgrok]

Just now, WendyAndMilo said:

For the homebound, it's the specially set-aside leftovers from the latest divine liturgy.  For the presanctified liturgy during Lent, it's a whole 'nother Eucharist altogether that is separately prepared and sanctified for use during the weekday service (since having a full Divine Liturgy during the week during Lent is too "celebratory").  Slight difference.

Oh, interesting! In RC and Episcopal churches the Good Friday service uses the set aside leftovers from the Holy Thursday/Maunday thursday service. 

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, TCB said:

You know my feeling is who cares what they say about the protests. Two wrongs don't make a right and in my opinion the church should be setting the example not saying if you can do it so can we. Now, having said that, I do think that it is possible to do things safely outside. I wish our church would try to do it safely but they are only interested in everything back to normal, although they did say they were going to go back to no contact services since we are having quite an increase in our area, which means no hugging or shaking hands.

ETA I have not watched the service yet to confirm that people are complying with that.

I don't know how to explain this better, and I am sorry I can't be more clear, but I'm not going for two wrongs or tit for tat. I'm going for the idea that it doesn't spread well outdoors even with large crowds shouting. We have these "control groups" of sorts and many people saying that those types of things in Minneapolis and elsewhere (Portland? Chicago?) didn't result in spreading the virus in significant numbers. So, church outdoors, even if not distanced or 100% masked, would work the same way.

Unless someone is saying that is not the case and outbreaks/spikes are happening in those situations, in which case, nevermind.

Edited July 31, 2020 by EmseB

[TCB]

14 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I don't know how to explain this better, and I am sorry I can't be more clear, but I'm not going for two wrongs or tit for tat. I'm going for the idea that it doesn't spread well outdoors even with large crowds shouting. We have these "control groups" of sorts and many people saying that those types of things in Minneapolis and elsewhere (Portland? Chicago?) didn't result in spreading the virus in significant numbers. So, church outdoors, even if not distanced or 100% masked, would work the same way.

Unless someone is saying that is not the case and outbreaks/spikes are happening in those situations, in which case, nevermind.

I misunderstood. I thought you meant that you thought it did spread in those circumstances despite what people say.

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, TCB said:

I misunderstood. I thought you meant that you thought it did spread in those circumstances despite what people say.

No. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they found out if it does, but people (on this board and people I follow elsewhere) who watch the data more closely than I do don't currently seem to think those types of gatherings are a source of spread.

My only line of thinking is that maybe since they are primarily young you'd only see second or third hand transmission to older folks ending up in the hospitals weeks later, but I think it would be impossible to track.

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, EmseB said:

No. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they found out if it does, but people (on this board and people I follow elsewhere) who watch the data more closely than I do don't currently seem to think those types of gatherings are a source of spread.

My only line of thinking is that maybe since they are primarily young you'd only see second or third hand transmission to older folks ending up in the hospitals weeks later, but I think it would be impossible to track.

I haven’t followed it closely but I have heard that as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some spread and delayed makes sense. I definitely think outside is way less risky.

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

I don't know how to explain this better, and I am sorry I can't be more clear, but I'm not going for two wrongs or tit for tat. I'm going for the idea that it doesn't spread well outdoors even with large crowds shouting. We have these "control groups" of sorts and many people saying that those types of things in Minneapolis and elsewhere (Portland? Chicago?) didn't result in spreading the virus in significant numbers. So, church outdoors, even if not distanced or 100% masked, would work the same way.

Unless someone is saying that is not the case and outbreaks/spikes are happening in those situations, in which case, nevermind.

I agree - outside church sounds safe to me as well. I listened to a neat podcast this week. The host had 2 epidemiologists on and they played a game called "safe or not safe". The host gave them a number of different scenarios and had them each rate the scenario on a scale of 1-10. I think 1 was, "no way", and 10 was, "I'd feel good if my 100 year old immunocompromised grandma do it". Across the board, they agreed on outdoor activities being quite safe (8 -10 depending on the size/length of gathering) and indoor stuff being less safe with bars and inside church receiving the lowest scores. 

 

1 hour ago, TCB said:

I misunderstood. I thought you meant that you thought it did spread in those circumstances despite what people say.

I also thought that's what you meant - my apologies for any misunderstanding.

[Starr]

We left our online service at the regular church time and most people participate this way.  It is in the chapel where we can film more easily. We have a 9:00 service following NY regulations, no cheating. It's not easy and doesn't sound fun to me. About 20 people show up, organ music but no singing. One at a time for the communion, just bread, and then you go directly out a side door to the parking lot. We also do Sunday School live online. It's become a family thing. It's just too hard to distance and film. Folks are waiting until the college students arrive to see how things go. Most  think we will be all shut down again sometime this fall/winter.

Has anyone found that folks stay put during an outside service? Do they really distance after it's over?  How many people  have you had attend? Thanks!

 

[Terabith]

20 hours ago, Starr said:

We left our online service at the regular church time and most people participate this way.  It is in the chapel where we can film more easily. We have a 9:00 service following NY regulations, no cheating. It's not easy and doesn't sound fun to me. About 20 people show up, organ music but no singing. One at a time for the communion, just bread, and then you go directly out a side door to the parking lot. We also do Sunday School live online. It's become a family thing. It's just too hard to distance and film. Folks are waiting until the college students arrive to see how things go. Most  think we will be all shut down again sometime this fall/winter.

Has anyone found that folks stay put during an outside service? Do they really distance after it's over?  How many people  have you had attend? Thanks!

 

So, our church is doing parking lot church every other week.  The pastors and musicians and tech crew are on the steps/ porch/ sidewalk.  (There's a lot of room and really maybe four or five people.)  Some people stay in their cars, but about half to two thirds bring their own chairs and sit in the lot.  People are all masked and stay a good distance from other family groups, usually at least 12 feet apart.  We do some singing (outside, masked, and distant).  There is communion, but people bring their own elements, and the priest blesses it from the make shift altar up front.  People consume and then replace masks.  The whole service is about an hour.  People do chat a bit before and afterwards, but again....everyone is pretty careful about staying a good distance apart, definitely more than six feet.  There are probably about 40 people.  Cars park in every other space, so that if you sit outside your car, in the space with it, you're pretty far apart, but people do often move to a different area where there is at least some shade from the building.  It works fine, and I'm pretty cautious (not as cautious as a few people on the board, but really more cautious than anyone I know in real life), and it feels like a reasonable level of risk to me.  I wouldn't be comfortable with indoor church at this point.  There have been a couple times I've opted out because it was already 90 degrees at 10 am and in the sun, with minimal shade and no breeze, it's kind of brutal.  We broadcast the service online, as well.