Jump to content

Menu

S/O from "Church response to Covid" Thread


Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Which systems?


Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that. We have never fully reckoned with, atoned for, or remediated the harm those systems have done and still do. Simply saying, I’m no longer going to bar you from owning fast-appreciating real estate or getting loans for your farm doesn’t change the 100 year head start on wealth-building you received. Those who simply want to move along and pretend we’re all starting equal or should start equal in the absence of that reckoning are espousing a form of cheap grace that redounds to their benefit at the expense of marginalized groups. Christianity, itself, is a system that has been used to pacify the victims, comfort the perpetrators, and prevent this reckoning.

Edited by Sneezyone
  • Like 15
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 101
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job

For many POC, the violence and systematic, enforced inequities are not in the past. They’re the living present. And all too often, those experiences are dismissed by many as “does not exist”, “overb

And therein lies the rub. This is an opinion that lacks any basis in fact. There are specific laws and policies, still in effect, that we can/should change. It is, indeed, possible to correct these th

Just now, Sneezyone said:


Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that.

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.


Disparate drug sentencing guidelines for substances used primarily in black/brown communities vs white ones. Opioids and Cocaine vs. Crack, for example. Redlining (which now goes by another name... risk assessment). Alternative/temporary teacher licensure (which means underprepared teachers are more common in schools where kids need more experienced educators). Shall I go on? You will never turn me libertarian b/c I do not believe that discrimination in public accommodations is ever or can ever be justified. 

Edited by Sneezyone
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I just shrug and don’t care. I’m a big believer in ‘live and let live’ and privately holding a different opinion or stance has rarely interferes with my enjoyment or useful of particular groups.  I just don’t poke at places we disagree. Why do they have to align with me for me to have fun it be involved? If I differ from the main group’s thinking, so what?

If it is so fundamental to the function of the group it can’t be ignored, I leave and look for a better fit. It’s not inherently a flaw with *them* that they might not match *me*. That’s just arrogant.

People huddling together unmasked during a deadly pandemic strikes me as the opposite of "live and let live."

Bill

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't speak about slavery but I want to mention how colonization which was over in my native country in 1947 still affects it though don't know if this is relevant here,.

The immediate effect was partition. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

A million people died, countless women of multiple religions were raped and there are horrible stories of how the all the women in many villages jumped into the one well at the center of the village square so that it overflowed. I can't imagine how a well can overflow with so many dead bodies or it is even possible to die after you jump in with so many dead bodies in there. These happened in our grandparent's generation. The effect of that is multiple wars, constant skirmishes, inter religious riots. 

If you belong to a country or a people that was oppressed the trauma goes generations in so many indirect ways. We are three generations away from colonization in my native country and still so many things can be attributed to that. 

In America, don't people always point to great depression when anything bad economic happens as a bench mark and they immediately get it because they had some grandparent live that ? Something like that for people who come from a history of colonization. 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

Honestly, how do you not know about laws and policies that promote inequality? 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

A recent article on the continuing legacy of redlining:

Quote

Discriminatory housing policies were outlawed by the Fair Housing Act of 1968 but their effects still linger.

The racist housing policy of redlining assigned grade levels and color codes to neighborhoods to indicate local lenders’ perceived credit risk based in large part on the residents’ race and ethnicity, and it was outlawed in the 1960s. Urban areas with a large share of black families were typically redlined, which made it nearly impossible to qualify for a mortgage. A recent study by Redfin found that the typical home in a redlined neighborhood gained $212,023 or 52 percent less than one in a “greenlined” neighborhood over the past 40 years. Today, black homeowners are five times as likely to own in a formerly redlined neighborhood than a greenlined one, according to Redfin’s study.

“This equates to homes that are worth less, have less equity and are in neighborhoods deemed less desirable due to the lingering effects of redlining,” says Christensen.

The ongoing impact of redlining is illustrated by the disparity in home values between Montgomery County and Prince George’s County in suburban Maryland, says Hazel Shakur, a real estate agent with Redfin in Prince George’s County.

Recently, a single-family "home in Montgomery County sold for $465,000, while a similar home in Prince George’s County sold for $370,000,” says Shakur. “What could account for a $95,000 difference? It really boils down to the lack of amenities and poor school rankings in Prince George’s County. The lack of investment in Prince George’s County is a lingering impact of redlining.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/black-homeownership-gap/?arc404=true

The whole article is worth reading, but WaPo does have a paywall.

This is a case where the policy has been changed, but the damage done by that longtime policy has not been redressed. The damage is pervasive and ongoing.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I didn’t say any of what you ladies just typed. My point was about personal identity and redemption in Christ as new creations, from a biblical perspective. Moving forward in Christian unity as a global church focused on Jesus is quite a lot different than ‘forgive and forget’. And if someone claims to mantle of Christ and does NOT believe they are a new creation, with a new heart, united  in fellowship with a new spiritual family and given grace and peace and perseverance for all manner of pain and trials, I’d very much question what the faith is actually built upon at all. This is my core rejection of critical race theory, especially in the church - there is no true redemption. No lasting salvation. No atonement that is actually complete.

I was specifically addressing @Dreamergal, but I think it is broadly applicable in the church right now. And it has nothing to do with ignoring current suffering and pain or sin, but how one frames the *solution* to those endemic problems of fallen man, whose heart is filled with division and hate. There are things to be done now in how to right ongoing wrongs, but that is never and can never be a final, lasting solution to a problem that is primarily in the hearts of all men. 
 

I’ll end the soap box, but if you think a Christian exhorting another Christian to redemption and love instead of the pains of the past is the problem, I really don’t think there is anything more to be said. Sigh.

 

I think some of us may be a little triggered by having had past experience with these arguments used in an abusive way.  When it’s an abusive person using them against the person they’ve abused in some way it just becomes a part of the pattern of abuse.  Forgiveness is essential - so are the exhortations to not offend against the little ones and to seek out the wounded or injured brother and seek to heal. Some people want all the forgiveness without doing the work needed on their end.  In which case it just becomes a way to cover stuff up without dealing with it.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think some of us may be a little triggered by having had past experience with these arguments used in an abusive way.  When it’s an abusive person using them against the person they’ve abused in some way it just becomes a part of the pattern of abuse.  Forgiveness is essential - so are the exhortations to not offend against the little ones and to seek out the wounded or injured brother and seek to heal. Some people want all the forgiveness without doing the work needed on their end.  In which case it just becomes a way to cover stuff up without dealing with it.

If you are talking about direct, personal sin, I agree the biblical pattern of reconciliation is called for, certainly. One needs to ask forgiveness and, if appropriate, give restitution personally for the wrong done.

The sticky wicket is when you’re talking in vague, general terms about systems and histories. Things that an individual currently cannot change and did not create, things that cannot ever actually be fixed by an act of contrition and confession of sin and trying to right a wrong personally inflicted. That begins to lose biblical ground fast, and is usually where the CRT thing camps out. In these vast, vague wrongs that Christ’s mercy and transformation in the life of a believer can’t ever fix for someone else. That is not the same discussion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

If you are talking about direct, personal sin, I agree the biblical pattern of reconciliation is called for, certainly. One needs to ask forgiveness and, if appropriate, give restitution personally for the wrong done.

The sticky wicket is when you’re talking in vague, general terms about systems and histories. Things that an individual currently cannot change and did not create, things that cannot ever actually be fixed by an act of contrition and confession of sin and trying to right a wrong personally inflicted. That begins to lose biblical ground fast, and is usually where the CRT thing camps out. In these vast, vague wrongs that Christ’s mercy and transformation in the life of a believer can’t ever fix for someone else. That is not the same discussion.

 

And therein lies the rub. This is an opinion that lacks any basis in fact. There are specific laws and policies, still in effect, that we can/should change. It is, indeed, possible to correct these things as we've seen demonstrated in many places around the world (and even in our own). Internment reparations? Paid. 9/11 reparations? Paid. Apartheid reparations? Paid. We even paid reparations to victims of the holocaust when we had nothing to do with their treatment overseas. The fact is, these systems of abuse (to include redlining) ended DURING the lifetimes of living individuals in this country. Both the victims and the perpetrators are still alive. Ruby Bridges is 65 years old. LET THAT SINK IN. We just lost not one but two giants who fought this fight in the last two weeks. Is the goal to make sure they all die off so we can absolve ourselves of any guilty feelings with still more cheap grace? What steps we take to right the wrongs may be debated (I'm not even necessarily talking about dollars and cents) but the fact that something is owed seems patently obvious to me. Equally obvious is the lack of contrition.

Edited by Sneezyone
  • Like 11
  • Thanks 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

If you are talking about direct, personal sin, I agree the biblical pattern of reconciliation is called for, certainly. One needs to ask forgiveness and, if appropriate, give restitution personally for the wrong done.

The sticky wicket is when you’re talking in vague, general terms about systems and histories. Things that an individual currently cannot change and did not create, things that cannot ever actually be fixed by an act of contrition and confession of sin and trying to right a wrong personally inflicted. That begins to lose biblical ground fast, and is usually where the CRT thing camps out. In these vast, vague wrongs that Christ’s mercy and transformation in the life of a believer can’t ever fix for someone else. That is not the same discussion.

Apologies or genuine acts of contrition by those heading organizations that perpetuated acts like slavery of colonization in the name of religion or the church or country do work and make a difference. In my case I absolutely cried when the then Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Willams apologized because the Church of England was directly involved in colonization in my native country and it is directly tied to my native church as ours is very much the British way of worship.

https://www.churchofengland.org/more/media-centre/news/church-and-legacy-slavery

Jallianwala Bagh massacre is a line even too far crossed for the British house of commons in the age colonization who condemned it. No British Prime Minister has ever apologized for it though they have acknowledged the pain of it. But this one simple action by the current Archbishop of Canterbury went far in how people saw Britain itself. In the land where Christianity is considered a western religion, the head of the church of England and the Queen's chaplin which are symbols of colonization doing this did make a difference. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/archbishop-canterbury-protest-1919-india-massacre-4804311-Sep2019/

These matter so much in reconciliation for religion and history. A true sorry not a grudging one.

When someone from the British royal family who currently wears or will wear the crown like the Queen or Prince Charles or Prince William apologizes fully for colonization people around the common wealth will cry because it is long overdue. The right wing media in Britain will go absolutely nuts like it did when Prince Harry briefly alluded to it and he is no where near the Crown because they know the impact of it. 

Edited by Dreamergal
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

A recent article on the continuing legacy of redlining:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/black-homeownership-gap/?arc404=true

The whole article is worth reading, but WaPo does have a paywall.

This is a case where the policy has been changed, but the damage done by that longtime policy has not been redressed. The damage is pervasive and ongoing.

Right.

And another huge one for me (which is connected in many places to housing) is the issue of inequality in education. Public schools should be funded equitably, period. There should be no such thing as well-funded schools and under-funded schools. The elementary school in the rich part of town should not have the newest technology and the most resources while the elementary school in the poor part of town has outdated textbooks and mold in the walls. Kids are absolutely not given equal starts in life by the government of our cities/states/country, and that is on top of whether or not they happen to win the "birth lottery." 

55 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

And therein lies the rub. This is an opinion that lacks any basis in fact. There are specific laws and policies, still in effect, that we can/should change. It is, indeed, possible to correct these things as we've seen demonstrated in many places around the world (and even in our own). Internment reparations? Paid. 9/11 reparations? Paid. Apartheid reparations? Paid. We even paid reparations to victims of the holocaust when we had nothing to do with their treatment overseas. The fact is, these systems of abuse (to include redlining) ended DURING the lifetimes of living individuals in this country. Both the victims and the perpetrators are still alive. Ruby Bridges is 65 years old. LET THAT SINK IN. We just lost not one but two giants who fought this fight in the last two weeks. Is the goal to make sure they all die off so we can absolve ourselves of any guilty feelings with still more cheap grace? What steps we take to right the wrongs may be debated (I'm not even necessarily talking about dollars and cents) but the fact that something is owed seems patently obvious to me. Equally obvious is the lack of contrition.

Aside from laws and policies which can provide remedies, there is also separation of church and state in this country. Political contrition and reparation is very distinct from religious contrition and redemption. I understand that religion guides individual understanding, and so it is coming up in conversation, but no one is asking the church to fix things that the government needs to fix. 

This conversation has swayed from individual to governmental considerations though. Obviously religious convictions will influence an individual's standing on every issue, but they should not dictate the nation's standing on any issue. 

 
Edited by Alte Veste Academy
  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Honestly, how do you not know about laws and policies that promote inequality? 

Because when I ask the question I generally get snotty responses.   I appreciated SneezyOne giving actual examples that can be discussed.  

Edited by shinyhappypeople
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

Right.

And another huge one for me (which is connected in many places to housing) is the issue of inequality in education. Public schools should be funded equitably, period. There should be no such thing as well-funded schools and under-funded schools. The elementary school in the rich part of town should not have the newest technology and the most resources while the elementary school in the poor part of town has outdated textbooks and mold in the walls. Kids are absolutely not given equal starts in life by the government of our cities/states/country, and that is on top of whether or not they happen to win the "birth lottery." 

Aside from laws and policies which can provide remedies, there is also separation of church and state in this country. Political contrition and reparation is very distinct from religious contrition and redemption. I understand that religion guides individual understanding, and so it is coming up in conversation, but no one is asking the church to fix things that the government needs to fix. 

This conversation has swayed from individual to governmental considerations though. Obviously religious convictions will influence an individual's standing on every issue, but they should not dictate the nation's standing on any issue. 

 

 

Oh, for sure. But it is absolutely damning and dismaying that members of the church pick and choose when to apply biblical principles. The personal *is* political...unless it's too uncomfortable and potentially disruptive. My issue is the decided lack of care/concern among certain segments of christianity that want to engage in biblical legislating only when it's convenient and not when it requires real work/inconvenience/$$. COVID is just another manifestation of this refusal to do hard things that don't make you feel good/morally superior. Individual christians also have a duty to steer their bodies/congregations in a way that addresses these wrongs and demonstrates care for others.

Edited by Sneezyone
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

Right.

And another huge one for me (which is connected in many places to housing) is the issue of inequality in education. Public schools should be funded equitably, period. There should be no such thing as well-funded schools and under-funded schools. The elementary school in the rich part of town should not have the newest technology and the most resources while the elementary school in the poor part of town has outdated textbooks and mold in the walls. Kids are absolutely not given equal starts in life by the government of our cities/states/country, and that is on top of whether or not they happen to win the "birth lottery." 

 

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Honestly, how do you not know about laws and policies that promote inequality? 

Because we don't.  I keep hearing this, but I need it spelled out.  How can I help fix it if I don't understand it.  Just like to me, police are so incredibly friendly.  My "talk" to my children about the police meant going up to policeman at a public event and introducing my children. "These are nice people.  They are here to help you. If you ever have a problem or get lost, find one of them and they can help you."  I ended with thanking them for their service.  My whole frame of reference is how nice they are.  Now, I am a white woman.  Over the last couple of months, I've heard stories I've never heard from POC that don't match my experience at all.  I haven't heard it from my town, ( not saying they don't exist), but I have from my state.  So I've heard stories from people I knew that had "the talk" that everyone is referencing on the internet about how Black males have to survive.  I'm naive. I homeschooled, hung around with other Christians, etc. I treated everyone with respect.  I have no frame of reference because I don't see it in my day to day life.  I'm not sure how I was supposed to.  If I had seen someone discriminated against, I would have spoken up. 

I am now reading/listening to things like BE the BRidge, Brownicity, Threaded, etc. I am hearing their experiences and it sickens me.  I still don't understand some of the current laws I need to change, but I'm still listening and reading and maybe they'll get to that.  But yeah.  Most of us just went about our small lives and think it happens in big cities. I don't live in a big city, so how can I change anything there?  All I ever hear are vague references to this without a specific action step and a specific thing I can do.  Tell me who to write. Tell me exactly what to do. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

My (large, Canadian) city has one public school board. Schools all get the same funding per student all over the city. (All school boards get the same throughout the province.) There isn't another form of funding available to schools, except that it is possible to run fundraising events through a school counsel. I suppose those would be most successful in upper middle class neigbourhoods, but there's really only so much fundraising that can be done.

Wealthy people aren't likely to donate *that* much year-after-year just to build up a perfectly good local public school with a little extra tech or what-not. (If they want to put tens of thousands of dollars into a thing, they pick a private school.) I think maybe it's the baseline that's helping forstall excessive donors looking for loopholes. If the school is already doing a reasonably good job, there's not much motivation to invest a ton of one's personal wealth into a few frills at your kids' school.

Edited by bolt.
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

You can't just fix one thing that is part of a bad system. I can't speak specifically to the Texas plan as I do not live in Texas. But there are people advocating for plans that would probably help. What so often happens in this country is that something is done half way. It fails and we all conclude that nothing can help. That's not true. 

5 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Because we don't.  I keep hearing this, but I need it spelled out.  How can I help fix it if I don't understand it.  Just like to me, police are so incredibly friendly.  My "talk" to my children about the police meant going up to policeman at a public event and introducing my children. "These are nice people.  They are here to help you. If you ever have a problem or get lost, find one of them and they can help you."  I ended with thanking them for their service.  My whole frame of reference is how nice they are.  Now, I am a white woman.  Over the last couple of months, I've heard stories I've never heard from POC that don't match my experience at all.  I haven't heard it from my town, ( not saying they don't exist), but I have from my state.  So I've heard stories from people I knew that had "the talk" that everyone is referencing on the internet about how Black males have to survive.  I'm naive. I homeschooled, hung around with other Christians, etc. I treated everyone with respect.  I have no frame of reference because I don't see it in my day to day life.  I'm not sure how I was supposed to.  If I had seen someone discriminated against, I would have spoken up. 

I am now reading/listening to things like BE the BRidge, Brownicity, Threaded, etc. I am hearing their experiences and it sickens me.  I still don't understand some of the current laws I need to change, but I'm still listening and reading and maybe they'll get to that.  But yeah.  Most of us just went about our small lives and think it happens in big cities. I don't live in a big city, so how can I change anything there?  All I ever hear are vague references to this without a specific action step and a specific thing I can do.  Tell me who to write. Tell me exactly what to do. 

Okay, first you've definitely seen someone be discriminated against. We all have. We might not have recognized it as discrimination but it was still discrimination. 

These problems are not limited  to the big city. 

I don't mean to sound snarky but do some homework. Why should someone need to tell you who to write and what to do? 

Like I wrote above, I have a hard time understanding how people can be unaware of the laws and policies that create inequality in this country. Did you notice that African Americans were incarcerated at higher levels than caucasians? Did you notice that most of us live with defacto segregation? Some schools are almost all white and other schools are almost all minority. Did you think that happened naturally? 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

 

Here. the low income districts get more money from the state, and the inequality in actual education is still there. (Bells and whistles don't matter to me because they don't equate to an education.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, kdsuomi said:

 

Here. the low income districts get more money from the state, and the inequality in actual education is still there. (Bells and whistles don't matter to me because they don't equate to an education.)

Exactly. So how do we fix that? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

That's a lot of question marks. LOL

First of all, I don't think schools should be funded by property taxes. Not the least of which because property taxes in Texas are outrageous... That alone would help people feel not so personally violated by the whole they're stealing from me to help the poor. 

Of course wealthy people will pay for the absolute best. Of course there will always be more. Leaving that aside, the vast majority are not members of that upper class. And you kind of help my point. Rich people, better off people, even people who can afford to homeschool will do what it takes to get their kids the best education they can work out, the more. That makes it even more important that poor kids aren't handicapped by dilapidated schools with inadequate funding. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

I don't mean to sound snarky but do some homework. Why should someone need to tell you who to write and what to do? 

Like I wrote above, I have a hard time understanding how people can be unaware of the laws and policies that create inequality in this country. Did you notice that African Americans were incarcerated at higher levels than caucasians? Did you notice that most of us live with defacto segregation? Some schools are almost all white and other schools are almost all minority. Did you think that happened naturally? 

Like I said. I'm reading. No, I know NO ONE who has ever been in jail. So how would I know? Yes, I know they were segregated before I was born. The town I am currently living in had 2 schools one for white, one for black.  But since I've been born they have been integrated.  So what is there to fix?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

Exactly. So how do we fix that? 

 

I don't believe money will fix the inequality in education issue, so to me that's the wrong question to ask. It's a very complicated question, and possible solutions have become so politicized that no one will honestly discuss it. (It's particularly politicized in CA because we have extremely strong and extremely political teachers' unions.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, kdsuomi said:

 

I don't believe money will fix the inequality in education issue, so to me that's the wrong question to ask. It's a very complicated question, and possible solutions have become so politicized that no one will honestly discuss it. (It's particularly politicized in CA because we have extremely strong and extremely political teachers' unions.)

 Can you give me some of the possible solutions?

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

Like I said. I'm reading. No, I know NO ONE who has ever been in jail. So how would I know? Yes, I know they were segregated before I was born. The town I am currently living in had 2 schools one for white, one for black.  But since I've been born they have been integrated.  So what is there to fix?  

Do you read current events and watch the news, both with a variety of sources? Diversity in sources for current events is so important, but it seems that there is less and less of that going on these days. I absolutely force myself to watch and read the news that is opposite of my own viewpoint, just to stay informed.

People are incredulous that you don't see it because it is everywhere now, on our local news, our national news, our papers, our magazine articles, etc. It's literally in the streets right now, with people telling their stories. If your news isn't covering it, then that is a reason to watch/read more widely. If you are just not consuming news, that's something else entirely.  

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I'd expect money to be a component of the solution, but not in the sense of "let's give more money to who's teaching now and hope for the best." 

But, yes, I will absolutely not think about getting a teacher's job due to the salary. And I really like teaching. 

 

More money to education doesn't normally lead to higher teacher's salaries, though. The money in education issue isn't as straightforward as many think. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

 

People are incredulous that you don't see it because it is everywhere now, on our local news, our national news, our papers, our magazine articles, etc. It's literally in the streets right now, with people telling their stories. If your news isn't covering it, then that is a reason to watch/read more widely. If you are just not consuming news, that's something else entirely.  

NOW it is.  No, I really don't watch any news.  To be honest, I find most of my current events stuff out here on this board. Like, you guys were talking about Covid WAY WAY before anyone in real life was.   I will glance at the headlines on CNN or FOX just to sort of see, but reading it on either makes me upset.  Plus THIS BOARD told me to stay off the news as it affected my mental health.

But most of my reading was reading ahead for homeschooling or ancient history or American history or how to be a better parent. Now I'm reading books and books on theology or Bible commentary in my seminary classes.  But it is my new seminary friends that I met in person this past year, many of whom are young Black men and women where I heard the stories. I cannot tell you how much I miss going in person to class. I had never heard of Spoken Word until a worship class I had.  I've heard of many things I'd never heard of before. It was a different world.  And now I'm stuck here...feeling like an oddball in a culture I do not fit.  Literally, I do not understand how most of the people in my community think...

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, PerfectFifth said:

I too have no interest in poking at the stuff I disagree with. I do enjoy meaningful understanding of both sides of ideas but I have not found that possible. Especially in areas involving Christianity. I can definitely do "live and let live" but increasingly find that the opposing thought doesn't want to do the same. They want people who thing the same way. Maybe I'm to old and just have no energy left for smiling and staying quiet...rinse and repeat. LOL I don't feel a need to change anyones mind but I don't like being constantly challenged or "shamed"

I get it. And it’s easy to live and let live on a  lot of things. But a flippant attitude regarding a deadly disease is a bit tougher. I struggle with trying to understand where others are coming from but mostly am just bewildered in a way that I never have been before. Ever.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

IT IS NOT PAST. It is present. And keeping sweet isn’t going to dismantle the systems we’ve created to ensure the status quo is maintained in perpetuity. That same perseverance against all manner of trials is the one that has sustained the civil rights movement from beginning to end. That spiritual family can be a force for good, a force for change or it can be a force for maintaining an unequal system. Clearly many churches in America have chosen the latter. I come from a faith tradition that promotes the former.

 

4 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Which systems?

I just want to say just this one single issue/argument/throwing-up-of-hands about school funding is so complicated, how can we possibly solve it is, in and of itself, a perfect example of the legacy of inequality.

Why is school funding so complicated? Why is it inequitable? Why is it so hard, feeling next to impossible, to figure out how to fix it? The answer is the lingering effects of past policies. Cultural ideology and intentional action got us here, and only a change in cultural ideology followed by intentional action will get us out.   

Edited by Alte Veste Academy
  • Like 8
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Like I said. I'm reading. No, I know NO ONE who has ever been in jail. So how would I know? Yes, I know they were segregated before I was born. The town I am currently living in had 2 schools one for white, one for black.  But since I've been born they have been integrated.  So what is there to fix?  

When you were in school, did the white kids and the African American kids sit at the same lunch table? Was the racial makeup of the honors classes consistent with the racial makeup of your school? Was there a neighborhood in town where most of the African Americans lived? When did you have your first (if ever) African American teacher? 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

NOW it is.  No, I really don't watch any news.  To be honest, I find most of my current events stuff out here on this board. Like, you guys were talking about Covid WAY WAY before anyone in real life was.   I will glance at the headlines on CNN or FOX just to sort of see, but reading it on either makes me upset.  Plus THIS BOARD told me to stay off the news as it affected my mental health.

But most of my reading was reading ahead for homeschooling or ancient history or American history or how to be a better parent. Now I'm reading books and books on theology or Bible commentary in my seminary classes.  But it is my new seminary friends that I met in person this past year, many of whom are young Black men and women where I heard the stories. I cannot tell you how much I miss going in person to class. I had never heard of Spoken Word until a worship class I had.  I've heard of many things I'd never heard of before. It was a different world.  And now I'm stuck here...feeling like an oddball in a culture I do not fit.  Literally, I do not understand how most of the people in my community think...

I have not always had the time for the news that I have now. My kids are old and ignore me unless they are hungry. LOL

It has always been in the news though. Moreso now for sure, for obvious reasons. But what you read determines what you are aware of. I spent years reading middle school history to prepare for homeschooling as well, so I've been there. I do, however, have a very diverse past with a very diverse group of friends and have lived all over the world (retired Army brat, retired Army wife). So that helped. I never had the idea that people weren't treated differently from me because my life has been spent surrounded by people who are different from me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

When you were in school, did the white kids and the African American kids sit at the same lunch table? Was the racial makeup of the honors classes consistent with the racial makeup of your school? Was there a neighborhood in town where most of the African Americans lived? When did you have your first (if ever) African American teacher? 

Growing up I lived in Klein. ( It only had one high school then.)  I think we had one African American kid at my school. He was nice.  I have no idea.  To be honest, I cannot tell you the racial make-up in the classes I taught in the early 90's either. I taught at Putnam City original. I know I had several races.  I'm not very observant, besides at the time I thought I was supposed to be color-blind. ( Yes, yes I know that is actually racist... sigh... I've always tried to do what was right.)  I do not remember most of my teachers...  I think I had a Black woman in 2nd grade but it is fuzzy.  My parents taught me people were people.  I lived in a subdivision. My sense of direction stinks. Heck, I have no idea of the racial make-up of the small town I am currently living as far as who lives where.  Don't have a clue.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Growing up I lived in Klein. ( It only had one high school then.)  I think we had one African American kid at my school. He was nice.  I have no idea.  To be honest, I cannot tell you the racial make-up in the classes I taught in the early 90's either. I taught at Putnam City original. I know I had several races.  I'm not very observant, besides at the time I thought I was supposed to be color-blind. ( Yes, yes I know that is actually racist... sigh... I've always tried to do what was right.)  I do not remember most of my teachers...  I think I had a Black woman in 2nd grade but it is fuzzy.  My parents taught me people were people.  I lived in a subdivision. My sense of direction stinks. Heck, I have no idea of the racial make-up of the small town I am currently living as far as who lives where.  Don't have a clue.

Putnam City? Are you from Oklahoma? 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, square_25 said:

Do you have friends of other races you could talk to about this? Some of them may have useful experiences to relate, if you do. 

That was my whole point.  I'm just now hearing stories at seminary, though as far as talking to them directly... probably not.  Especially since now it would be through Zoom or Skype.  And they are not close friends.  I am just now getting to know them and they live 2-3 hours away from me where the seminary is. ( I was driving there for classes and spending the night with my mom, going to another day of classes and driving home.)  Here are the things my friends/acquaintances posted on their Facebook feeds:

If I cry, I am just a fragile white woman. Our fragility is a big part of what caused all of this mess.

            If I say nothing, I am complicit.

            If I say something, I am taking away from the Black voices that are speaking.

            If I post a black square, I am virtue signaling.

            Do not under any circumstances ask your Black acquaintances what you should do or how it feels. They are tired from carrying the burden.

            Your silence about this issue and refusal to talk with me about it means you do not care about me.

So do I ask or not? Do I talk or not? I do have some in a writing group.  I may reach out to them in a few months when I have earned the right to do so.  For now, I am just helping them with their writing as much as possible. Whenever my blog gets going, I will feature some of these talented writers as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

That was my whole point.  I'm just now hearing stories at seminary, though as far as talking to them directly... probably not.  Especially since now it would be through Zoom or Skype.  And they are not close friends.  I am just now getting to know them and they live 2-3 hours away from me where the seminary is. ( I was driving there for classes and spending the night with my mom, going to another day of classes and driving home.)  Here are the things my friends/acquaintances posted on their Facebook feeds:

If I cry, I am just a fragile white woman. Our fragility is a big part of what caused all of this mess.

            If I say nothing, I am complicit.

            If I say something, I am taking away from the Black voices that are speaking.

            If I post a black square, I am virtue signaling.

            Do not under any circumstances ask your Black acquaintances what you should do or how it feels. They are tired from carrying the burden.

            Your silence about this issue and refusal to talk with me about it means you do not care about me.

So do I ask or not? Do I talk or not? I do have some in a writing group.  I may reach out to them in a few months when I have earned the right to do so.  For now, I am just helping them with their writing as much as possible. Whenever my blog gets going, I will feature some of these talented writers as well. 

This isn't what any of us want to hear but this is supposed to be painful. It should be hard. If it's too easy then you're not going in the correct direction. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:


Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that. We have never fully reckoned with, atoned for, or remediated the harm those systems have done and still do. Simply saying, I’m no longer going to bar you from owning fast-appreciating real estate or getting loans for your farm doesn’t change the 100 year head start on wealth-building you received. Those who simply want to move along and pretend we’re all starting equal or should start equal in the absence of that reckoning are espousing a form of cheap grace that redounds to their benefit at the expense of marginalized groups. Christianity, itself, is a system that has been used to pacify the victims, comfort the perpetrators, and prevent this reckoning.

I certainly didn't receive any 100 year head start on wealth building.  My parents came here as refugees after having been enslaved in Soviet Gulags during WW2.  My husband's family came earlier but also had no wealth at all- in fact, he was poorer than me.  So many of the poor whites I see living in rural areas/mountainous areas didn't receive any wealth building either.  What housing systems?  People can buy houses wherever they can afford and can buy.   Have there been racist realtors and maybe still are racist realtors?  Yes-I agree that there has been a problem but it is easily overcome by firing that realtor and going with another.  Differing outcomes does not necessarily equate to racism at all.  

In fact,. the only racism I have seen on TV in the past few years is against Asian Americans.  And I have been shocked by it.  But lots of people seem to still think it is okay to make fun of Asians- be it Indians and Pakistanis or East Asians.  I don't get it at all.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

This isn't what any of us want to hear but this is supposed to be painful. It should be hard. If it's too easy then you're not going in the correct direction. 

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I certainly didn't receive any 100 year head start on wealth building.  My parents came here as refugees after having been enslaved in Soviet Gulags during WW2.  My husband's family came earlier but also had no wealth at all- in fact, he was poorer than me.  So many of the poor whites I see living in rural areas/mountainous areas didn't receive any wealth building either.  What housing systems?  People can buy houses wherever they can afford and can buy.   Have there been racist realtors and maybe still are racist realtors?  Yes-I agree that there has been a problem but it is easily overcome by firing that realtor and going with another.  Differing outcomes does not necessarily equate to racism at all.  

In fact,. the only racism I have seen on TV in the past few years is against Asian Americans.  And I have been shocked by it.  But lots of people seem to still think it is okay to make fun of Asians- be it Indians and Pakistanis or East Asians.  I don't get it at all.  

 

*I* am specifically talking about those marginalized groups that have been here that long. It doesn't apply to you and I wouldn't expect you to understand that experience or the history without study. Study is in order here. I'm not making up our history WRT the GI Bill, redlining, Social Security WRT domestic workers, and discrimination in farm loans. I seriously don't have time to address all of the misinformation this contains but you can google these issues to start. I can literally trace my family back to the late 1880s and that's it without expert assistance. I know my 3rd great grandparent(s), the males, on both sides are white. It's written all over my grandfather and great grandfathers faces. Half of my aunts/uncles on that side passed into whiteness. They literally lost their families and histories and heritage to rape and discrimination. When those relatives of mine left slavery, with nothing but the clothes on their back, they scraped up enough to buy acres of land in the Yakima Valley. They were forced to sell it when they could not get a Farm Bureau loan after the Great Depression. When they took the proceeds and bought property in Seattle, there were no racially restrictive covenants. That quickly changed, cosigned by SCOTUS, and they became an island of black in an all white neighborhood. All of the subsequent black families were consigned to the Central and International districts. You could not buy in my grandmother's neighborhood if you weren't white. This blindness to the cumulative affects of policies like this is willful. Do better.

Edited by Sneezyone
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

 

I, for one, don't want or need an 'I'm sorry'. I, too, am action oriented. I want to see restorative justice in the form of criminal justice reform, environmental justice policies (like compensation in the form of long-term healthcare for those harmed by environmental hazards located in low-income/minority communities...see Flint Water, for ex., much like we do for black lung). I would like to see broadband expansion to low-income/rural communities. I would like to see infrastructure and physical plant improvements in schools which will draw people and investment back to underserved communities (with carveouts to preserve rental housing availability). I would like to see many, many things. 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

Do you see how it's a privilege to be able to retreat and not deal with the "race stuff?" 

You say you feel powerless. Does that make it easier to understand how other people feel? 

There isn't a quick fix here like a tutor or a new class. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You can't just fix one thing that is part of a bad system. I can't speak specifically to the Texas plan as I do not live in Texas. But there are people advocating for plans that would probably help. What so often happens in this country is that something is done half way. It fails and we all conclude that nothing can help. That's not true. 

Okay, first you've definitely seen someone be discriminated against. We all have. We might not have recognized it as discrimination but it was still discrimination. 

These problems are not limited  to the big city. 

I don't mean to sound snarky but do some homework. Why should someone need to tell you who to write and what to do? 

Like I wrote above, I have a hard time understanding how people can be unaware of the laws and policies that create inequality in this country. Did you notice that African Americans were incarcerated at higher levels than caucasians? Did you notice that most of us live with defacto segregation? Some schools are almost all white and other schools are almost all minority. Did you think that happened naturally? 

Taking away the drug crimes which not only do I agree have been unequally judged but within the last 4 years, Trump and the Congress have addressed some of that inequity,  I agree more should be done with that.  But murders, for which I think everyone agrees should be incarcerated, are committed by AA men at a much higher percentage than white men.  What would you have us do?  As a criminal justice grad student, I looked at those numbers.  Others have researched it too.  Most of the disparity in sentencing has to do with violence and past records.  

We have forced desegregation here.  We still have mostly black schools because there is not enough whites in the schools to stop that from happening.  And in some areas, the all black or mostly black  schools are begging to stay open by the parents and the community.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

We have forced desegregation here.  We still have mostly black schools because there is not enough whites in the schools to stop that from happening.  And in some areas, the all black or mostly black  schools are begging to stay open by the parents and the community.  

 

Again. DO BETTER. Controlling for criminal histories, disparities (big ones) still exist. There is no such thing as forced desegregation in America. Congress REDUCED the sentencing disparities between crack and cocaine to 20 to 1 vs. 100 to 1. Are folks supposed to bow down in gratitude?

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

If that powerless-to-fix-it feeling is so intolerable to you, who are not being injured by it... Can you imagine how it feels to be powerless to fix something this big for other people who actually suffer and are injured by it? You don't like it so you garden. They don't like it either. Are they free to grow vegetables until their feelings are less sharp on the topic? Until the path becomes clearer? Or is something standing in their way that maybe isn't standing in your way?

There are lists of things everyday people can do to help with systemic inequality. I wouldn't be surprised if vegetables might be a tool to help others. Reading and writing certainly are!

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Happymomof1 said:

 Can you give me some of the possible solutions?

 

No, she can't/won't. B/C she doesn't actually believe there's a problem that needs to be addressed. The whole "I'm concerned..." and "What about..." shtick is both predictable and disingenuous.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

*I* am specifically talking about those marginalized groups that have been here that long. It doesn't apply to you and I wouldn't expect you to understand that experience or the history without study. Study is in order here. I'm not making up our history WRT the GI Bill, redlining, Social Security WRT domestic workers, and discrimination in farm loans. I seriously don't have time to address all of the misinformation this contains but you can google these issues to start.

I have actually studied that history.   And know about lots of injustices to AA and it hurts me to know how AA have been treated and in some cases, continue to be treated.. But the point is that there are more than just AA people who are or have been discriminated against.  Whether it be Appalachians, Latinos, Asians, disabled, gays, etc, etc,  there are lots of people who have and still feel the sting of discrimination and racism, sexism, ableism, etc. The KKK and Nazi types don;'t actually consider people like my family to be 'white' even though we probably have lighter skin than most of them.  That is because we are Slavic.     

I am generally for the underdog in most situations.  I have actually lived in areas which were discriminated against with poorer services, etc.  Because it doesn't matter if you are AA or not, if you live in that area, you get the same crappy treatment from the city.  I am all for helping disadvantaged people.  I just sometimes feel that they way we go about delivering various services is just not the right way to do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I have actually studied that history.   And know about lots of injustices to AA and it hurts me to know how AA have been treated and in some cases, continue to be treated.. But the point is that there are more than just AA people who are or have been discriminated against.  Whether it be Appalachians, Latinos, Asians, disabled, gays, etc, etc,  there are lots of people who have and still feel the sting of discrimination and racism, sexism, ableism, etc. The KKK and Nazi types don;'t actually consider people like my family to be 'white' even though we probably have lighter skin than most of them.  That is because we are Slavic.     

I am generally for the underdog in most situations.  I have actually lived in areas which were discriminated against with poorer services, etc.  Because it doesn't matter if you are AA or not, if you live in that area, you get the same crappy treatment from the city.  I am all for helping disadvantaged people.  I just sometimes feel that they way we go about delivering various services is just not the right way to do it.

 

Of course there are. Assuming, however, that the cumulative effects on immigrant populations is the same when some immigrant populations have been compensated for past abuses and atrocities while others have not is not at all fair. We're talking about systems of abuse that were only formally ended 50 years ago and, in practice, never did end. I would be happy to have a discussion about how to resolve these lingering issues. What I have no patience for is the denial of their existence or of our ability to make any changes that would measurably improve things.

Edited by Sneezyone
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

 

 

I just want to say just this one single issue/argument/throwing-up-of-hands about school funding is so complicated, how can we possibly solve it is, in and of itself, a perfect example of the legacy of inequality.

Why is school funding so complicated? Why is it inequitable? Why is it so hard, feeling next to impossible, to figure out how to fix it? The answer is the lingering effects of past policies. Cultural ideology and intentional action got us here, and only a change in cultural ideology followed by intentional action will get us out.   

Our school funding is nuts here.  We have 95% of our income tax, most of our sales tax and most of our property tax going to schools.  What are they doing with the money?  I have never been in a state with as many new schools being built- not because of rising population because I would expect that--- no, to replace old schools.  Not in CA, NM, OH, IL, VA, or FL have I ever seen so much school resources going to building new buildings.  The other issue we have here is a very high amount of administrative staff compared to teachers.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

I don't think individual schools should be allowed to raise money or request grants. My sister's public school in a wealthy neighborhood raised over $400K every year. How is that fair to the school down the street in a middle to low income area?

This was an elementary school!! Not even a high school!!

Edited by PerfectFifth
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I, for one, don't want or need an 'I'm sorry'. I, too, am action oriented. I want to see restorative justice in the form of criminal justice reform, environmental justice policies (like compensation in the form of long-term healthcare for those harmed by environmental hazards located in low-income/minority communities...see Flint Water, for ex., much like we do for black lung). I would like to see broadband expansion to low-income/rural communities. I would like to see infrastructure and physical plant improvements in schools which will draw people and investment back to underserved communities (with carveouts to preserve rental housing availability). I would like to see many, many things. 

This is one area my city did do the right thing.  We had Google fiber installed and the first areas that got it was a predominately black area.  Google fiber also installed fiber in the rural areas near a plant they bought too which was a huge improvement.  Facebook has been donating money to our school district to get wifi hotspots for the kids who do not have internet and are in our school district which is virtual for the first 9 weeks at least.  (I think longer as my dd who works as a civilian contracter with the US Army here has just been told she should not expect to come back to work in the office until December)

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...