S/O from "Church response to Covid" Thread

[PerfectFifth]

How do you stay involved in an organization in a true and authentic way when much of that organization disagrees with you on fundamental issues?  As things get more polarized, and will only get worse as we near the election, how do you stay involved in any meaningful way?  Whether it be homeschool groups/ church / social clubs; anything that gathers on a regular basis and has a social component to it.  I see many posts here where people say they don't agree with their "____" but stay because of the great things it provides their family.  

If the organization is a group where I will spend significant time but there is significant "group think", I struggle with staying. I get exhausted being the one person who feels differently on significant issues and I end up just leaving so that I, or my family, don't have to fake it or hide what we believe. 

I've left several homeschool groups/social organizations over the years because of it. Haven't left my church yet, but that's because its generally big enough so it can house many trains of thought..and they are my employer 😉 

[Dynamite5]

I agree that faking one's opinion is exhausting. I refuse to do that and, like you, have left some organizations because of it--but, more commonly, just didn't join at all. I've been very selective where I join because that's not the kind of energy I want to expend, kwim? 

I'm always curious when people say they can't leave their church, for instance, but the disagree with almost everything being taught and represented. 

 

[PerfectFifth]

2 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I just shrug and don’t care. I’m a big believer in ‘live and let live’ and privately holding a different opinion or stance has rarely interferes with my enjoyment or useful of particular groups.  I just don’t poke at places we disagree. Why do they have to align with me for me to have fun it be involved? If I differ from the main group’s thinking, so what?

If it is so fundamental to the function of the group it can’t be ignored, I leave and look for a better fit. It’s not inherently a flaw with *them* that they might not match *me*. That’s just arrogant.

I too have no interest in poking at the stuff I disagree with. I do enjoy meaningful understanding of both sides of ideas but I have not found that possible. Especially in areas involving Christianity. I can definitely do "live and let live" but increasingly find that the opposing thought doesn't want to do the same. They want people who thing the same way. Maybe I'm to old and just have no energy left for smiling and staying quiet...rinse and repeat. LOL I don't feel a need to change anyones mind but I don't like being constantly challenged or "shamed"

[PerfectFifth]

1 minute ago, Dynamite5 said:

I'm always curious when people say they can't leave their church, for instance, but the disagree with almost everything being taught and represented. 

 

This is exactly what I have been trying to wrap my head around. It's sad but I am finding many groups are no longer looking for truth. They find their side and stick to it come hell or high water. Now that my kids are grown, this is no longer an issue. I just leave, but it was much harder when I was trying to find a home for my homeschooling family.

[PerfectFifth]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Perhaps the issue isn’t the organization, it’s the people you are associating with.  When we joined the GS troop, we were asked about religion and I just said we don’t do the church thing and that was pretty much it.  There’s no pushing or anything.  

 

This is how I wish it worked in my area, but it doesn't. Homeschooling for example, tends to be ultra religious or ultra political. LOL I am catholic but was never "christian" enough for the religious groups and I am liberal but Catholic so therefore it was assumed I wasn't liberal enough. How about just getting to know me and over time we can discuss where we stand on issues. Felt like there was always some litmus test. And people definitely judge you when you say you're Catholic but pro-choice and have a gay daughter 🤪

[PerfectFifth]

I am an introvert and so are 2 or my kids, but we still feel community is important. What happened to community being open and encouraging wherever you are on the continuum?

[PerfectFifth]

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I read some advice somewhere about staying in relationships with people who disagree with you about fundamental issues. Is give and take allowed? Or is it always one-sided? Is one person/side always asked to accommodate everyone else? 

What we discovered when all of this blew up for us was that it went way beyond COVID. 

 

Exactly. Covid has definitely exacerbated already existing issues. I don't need a lot of people in my life, just a few that are open to dialog. My husband and I have one couple friend who are diametrically opposed to us on most issues but they don't judge and we have dialogued but have plenty of things in common so it works. But I have not found a lot of people who can do that. My young adult kids are talking about the same issues. 

[PerfectFifth]

2 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

It depends on the organization and the differences in beliefs. However, I live in CA and am of anything but the common political thought, so I just ignore it most times. There are certain organizations I won't have any part of because their platforms involve things that I find immoral and impossible to support, but most of the time I just stay quiet, don't say anything about disagreeing, and go with it.

If an organization is not OK with my religious beliefs, I won't join.

It's so interesting to me. I also live in CA and am more in line with common political thought but I am no where near the more "religious" thought in my area.

[PerfectFifth]

2 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

Where I live, most people are not religious, so I'm also not of the common "religious" thought. Honestly, it's just a whole lot of being quiet and ignoring what people say because it's blatantly obvious that dissenting opinions are not welcome. I don't belong to a lot of organizations, and this is one huge reason why. 

I've always been a proponent of finding friends not organizations. I have no problems in dance studios or places where we have a common goal, but things like church or homeschool support groups have always been challenging. It seems to me that people used to be more open to different backgrounds or beliefs. Everything is so polarized now. How does that get fixed?

 

[Pawz4me]

All I can say is that we started "unjoining" things after 9/11. It seems to me that's when a lot (not all, not by a long shot) of the modern tribalism/us versus them stuff got started. And I just couldn't take it. I'm not a person who can deal with a lot of cognitive dissonance or feeling like I'm being a hypocrite. And that's exactly what I started feeling like attending church that was corporately kinda sorta making it's feelings known, and that I didn't agree with. I felt like my membership/attendance was endorsing that POV. I guess it came down to an integrity thing for me. I'm much more able to adopt a live and let attitude on a personal, individual level when I'm not associated with the group. FWIW, I even changed my political affiliation from a party to an independent during that time. And politically that's the best thing I've ever done.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

What is a dissenting view ? 

Is racism, misogyny, sexism, sexual harassment, discrimination a dissenting view ? Definitely not because it is used to oppress others and make policies and environments that do so.

People can have all the views they want and live in a bubble. The minute they try to impose that on somebody, oppress people because of those or make policy because of that is why the push back happens. Policies especially should be for the greater good of society, not a select few. That is what a democratic society looks like to me.

 

I like you Dreamergal. LOL. You caught on to the dynamics here very quickly.

[shinyhappypeople]

1 hour ago, PerfectFifth said:

How do you stay involved in an organization in a true and authentic way when much of that organization disagrees with you on fundamental issues?  As things get more polarized, and will only get worse as we near the election, how do you stay involved in any meaningful way?  Whether it be homeschool groups/ church / social clubs; anything that gathers on a regular basis and has a social component to it.  I see many posts here where people say they don't agree with their "____" but stay because of the great things it provides their family.  

If the organization is a group where I will spend significant time but there is significant "group think", I struggle with staying. I get exhausted being the one person who feels differently on significant issues and I end up just leaving so that I, or my family, don't have to fake it or hide what we believe. 

I've left several homeschool groups/social organizations over the years because of it. Haven't left my church yet, but that's because its generally big enough so it can house many trains of thought..and they are my employer 😉 

I'm of two minds about this issue. 

On the one hand, I think it is much, much better to leave peacefully, wishing others well as you go, than let it get to the point where real emotional and relational damage is done. 

On the other hand, maybe some self-reflection is in order.  Is the issue really as big as it feels?  Is it possible that two people can reasonably disagree (most issues: yes).  I think we should ask ourselves "Is this a hill worth dying on?"  If you have too many hills, you'll be left without community.  That's not what you want. Most of the stuff that feels big, and annoying, and frustrating isn't worth ending a relationship over.  I think there's real value in extending grace and remembering that they're not perfect, but neither am I.   

 

 

[PerfectFifth]

14 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

What is a dissenting view ? 

Is racism, misogyny, sexism, sexual harassment, discrimination a dissenting view ? Definitely not because it is used to oppress others and make policies and environments that do so.

People can have all the views they want and live in a bubble. The minute they try to impose that on somebody, oppress people because of those or make policy because of that is why the push back happens. Policies especially should be for the greater good of society, not a select few. That is what a democratic society looks like to me.

Amen to this! Bubbles are the way of life around here. It's ludicrous to me that we are having versions of the "world is flat" conversation over and over again. I still hear that sexism, sexual harassment, racism etc don't exist. It's never that blunt but they always side with the perpetrator and not the victim so as far as I am concerned they live in their own utopian bubble or they just don't give a darn. It's very hard to continue to claim I live in a democratic society. 

[shinyhappypeople]

1 hour ago, kdsuomi said:

It depends on the organization and the differences in beliefs. However, I live in CA and am of anything but the common political thought, so I just ignore it most times. There are certain organizations I won't have any part of because their platforms involve things that I find immoral and impossible to support, but most of the time I just stay quiet, don't say anything about disagreeing, and go with it.

If an organization is not OK with my religious beliefs, I won't join.

Yup.  Living in California, one learns to keep one's mouth shut in public... or else.  All the California "tolerance" has left me speechless. 😂

[PerfectFifth]

3 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I'm of two minds about this issue. 

On the one hand, I think it is much, much better to leave peacefully, wishing others well as you go, than let it get to the point where real emotional and relational damage is done. 

On the other hand, maybe some self-reflection is in order.  Is the issue really as big as it feels?  Is it possible that two people can reasonably disagree (most issues: yes).  I think we should ask ourselves "Is this a hill worth dying on?"  If you have too many hills, you'll be left without community.  That's not what you want. Most of the stuff that feels big, and annoying, and frustrating isn't worth ending a relationship over.  I think there's real value in extending grace and remembering that they're not perfect, but neither am I.   

 

 

I agree with this. And i remain in relationship with several people because I love them even though I abhor them continually pushing their beliefs and belittling mine.I do this because they are my parents or long time family friends and I  have found balance. I take space when I need to and I help guide conversation away from landmines. I am not willing to do this with everyone. Not because I disagree with their beliefs but because they shove them down my throat. I have acquaintances and friends who have very different beliefs. I have a gay daughter and there is a possibility that some of these acquaintances think that she is going to hell...I don't know for sure and I may be pleasantly surprised but they have never said anything and treat her and me with respect so I can exist with them. 

I'm very sensitive, but I'm old and have finally learned to recognize in myself when things "feel big" versus "are big", so I've done the self-reflection and am only questioning the big stuff in this post. But self-reflection is always a good idea. 

[PerfectFifth]

8 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Yup.  Living in California, one learns to keep one's mouth shut in public... or else.  All the California "tolerance" has left me speechless. 😂

I think this is at the heart of what I am talking about...or asking? I also live in California. I am more in line with what the ideas of majority of CA  but I live in an area that is predominantly of the minority thought and I too come up against California "tolerance" where I am left speechless. So it doesn't matter. We both still have to deal with "tolerance". That word cracks me up by the way. Thank you for my new favorite phrase.  The vast polarization  and intolerance seems so counterproductive. 

[kbutton]

47 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

When all of this blew up in my church, it made me understand how the sex abuse scandals in churches happened. 

Like I wrote, it's never just about masks. Masks are such a divisive issue because it's never just masks. It stands for something for the people choosing not to wear them. 

I think the underlying issue is "us versus them." People choose what media to trust and which authority figures to trust WRT masks. Why did they chose that person? Usually because of "us versus them." The people who agree with us about these social issues think this is a hoax so it's a hoax. That's the mentality that I saw over and over again. People who disagreed were "divisive" because it wasn't about masks; it was about who we were. 

When you're motivate by "us versus them" ideology, you excuse your own side. What was obvious to me about the organization I left is that if someone was on the right side, they would trust them, no matter what they did or said. It's a recipe for disaster if that person is a bad person. 

This is why churches overlook sexual abuse. And this is why victims of sexual abuse are criticized and punished within churches when they speak out. They're challenging the belief that "us" is good. 

I am struggling with "us vs. them" because I have seen a pattern where the this mentality is promoted at the seminary level in my denomination, and it seems to be the method new pastors use to gain power and steamroll churches. It's very methodical in its implementation, including how people are spoken to when there is a disagreement (or heck, even a question). This is something I've observed across four different situations whose only common denominator is whether the pastor/leader was trained in the denominational seminaries that teach this kind of stuff. It seems to be leaving a wake of broken and disillusioned people. 

Unfortunately, I feel as though I have to then create an opposing "us vs. them" stance in mind--as in, if our pastor retires, and they hire someone from a denominational seminary, I don't plan to stick around and watch everything go south. BTDT in another church. I have no idea how to counter this given that these seminaries even teach ways to dance around sensitive topics when a search committee asks certain questions of the pastoral candidates! So much for truth--let's dissemble during the interview, get everyone to like us by fixing some obvious problems, and then move in for the kill once we're sure of loyalty. Loyalty is a buzzword in this crowd.  If we're talking about an institution vs. a church, then the method is to slowly convert the board of governance over ahead of time, and then they install "their man," who has the backing to do what he pleases because his employment can't be touched. He then has one face for donors and another for dissenters.

So, is there recourse for such a situation without resorting to my own "us vs. them" stance? If there is no place to be sure I am getting real answers to questions ahead of time, I don't see how I can do anything other than say, "We're out if one of them is in." 

8 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

I'm of two minds about this issue. 

On the one hand, I think it is much, much better to leave peacefully, wishing others well as you go, than let it get to the point where real emotional and relational damage is done. 

On the other hand, maybe some self-reflection is in order.  Is the issue really as big as it feels?  Is it possible that two people can reasonably disagree (most issues: yes).  I think we should ask ourselves "Is this a hill worth dying on?"  If you have too many hills, you'll be left without community.  That's not what you want. Most of the stuff that feels big, and annoying, and frustrating isn't worth ending a relationship over.  I think there's real value in extending grace and remembering that they're not perfect, but neither am I.   

This is how we've handled situations in the past--the leaving of the old (the one hand) and the embracing of the new (the other hand). But the new has some vocal people that I think are influential enough to sour the whole bunch. Sigh.

[PerfectFifth]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

You cannot if you are a black or brown person in many cases even if you are an uneducated person because your own family history has anecdotal incidents that are handed down through the family about your ancestors. You cannot if you have unexplained European ancestry in your DNA as a large section of the world of brown and black people have which cannot be attributed to marriage or even a loving, romantic relationship. You cannot if you have "fair" skin and you come from darker color people because you wonder which ancestor gave it to you and how. 😢

It is easy to believe that if you don't have horrifying family history. 

Thank you. I could never have said this so well. 

[PerfectFifth]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

It is my reality and it was hidden from me from a large part of my life because we don't talk about painful family history. But you just wonder and when you find out it hits you like a thunderbolt.

 I am still not able to speak about it in real life, but I am getting better at speaking about it. I hope to be brave to speak about it more and definitely tell my children. 

You are are on the right track!!! Speaking our truth is so hard. Especially IRL. Places like this, even when they get intense, are a wonderful place to begin the process. You can speak your truth to me any time you want!!!!

[PerfectFifth]

5 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

Deleted by moderator

First section deleted because it was in response to the deleted post.

I'm more speaking to the exchange between you and Dreamergal. Did we always assume that a comment or response had aggressive/passive aggressive undertones? I'm a lurker turned "putting my toe in poster" so I don't know all of the dynamics between people here, but as an "outsider" it seems like there is more jumping to conclusions and less asking for clarification. I'm not trying to be snarky or condescending..I'm really trying to understand. 

I don't know how you do add the highlighted name thing. LOL But I tried to add Dreamergal to this.

[Pam in CT]

There are a great number of areas where live and let live works just fine for me.  Public school v private school b homeschool. Cloth v paper. Breast v bottle. Secular v faith-framed. Compost v pickup. Home cooking v takeout. Vegetarian v meateater. Homebaked v bakery. Instapot v crockpot v regular pots. Pilates v Pelaton v SoulCycle. Yoga v therapy. Birth control pills v IUD v natural planning v open to God's plan.

The world is full of evangelists enthusiasts who do not merely hold, but also *really really want to share* a particular POV about one or more of these things. And that is fine. No problem staying in organizations that have a handful of evangelists enthusiasts on any such subjects. (I am unlikely to become close friends with such folks: I am wearied by people who return overly often to a pitch that has already been not-taken-up.  But I am fully able to maintain a reasonable and productive working relationship in the shared effort of supporting a foodbank, with a person who goes on too long too often about, say, how vitamin supplements changed her life.  Roll the eyes and move on to the next thing that needs to be done.  *  )

And then there is a very short list of fundamentals which are, well, fundamental. I can't really see myself belonging to an *organization* that isn't more or less aligned on those fundamentals.  It's a short list. Most of the formal organizations I belong to (my synagogue, my town's interfaith steering committee, the regional interfaith service umbrella, the League of Women Voters) are pretty big tents with only a very few core organizational values.  But those organizational values do need to align with my own, or my membership really wouldn't make any sense.

 

 

 

*  Eyerolling and moving on: does not get the acclaim it deserves as an utlimately adaptive behavior.

 

[PerfectFifth]

7 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

In my own family history there is abuse, incest, murder, alcoholism, mental illness, ‘broken’ branches of the family tree forever cut off, you name it. And yes, some very painful history of oppression at the hands of others, primarily due to religion and ethnic identity.

The focus on all the wrongs and horribleness of the past does very little to benefit us in the future, especially people who are redeemed from precisely all those sins that haunt their history. As a Christian, I think it is explicit that we NOT dwell on the differences and wrongs but in unity in Christ. And there was plenty said about this throughout the new, developing church after Pentecost. Where slaves and their masters, people groups with profound violent histories, the marginalized, the purposefully separated, all came together under a banner of unity in mind and heart because it was Christ who created that in them. Allowed them to move beyond their pasts and hurts and become a new creation, with a new family and a shared hope that the world could not corrupt.

As a believer, this shouldn’t even really be debatable, honestly. The Word is very clear on what some of us once were, and who we are now as found in Christ.

I think that this is easy to say for those of us who have generally lived a life of privilege. I don't mean we are necessarily wealthy. And I don't mean that we haven't had our own horribly destructive history but if I was to say to someone "don't dwell on your past" and their past is continually brushed aside as in THE PAST, how are they expected to feel. And often times it is not their PAST it continues to be their PRESENT. I can not move forward until I have contended with things that negatively shaped me. I was raised in a family where you didn't talk about it, you didn't tell anyone about it and you moved on from it. It doesn't work. I believe in Christ and that belief and a lot of therapy has helped me heal from much of it,  but A) not everyone believes in Christ and that is ok with me and B) that doesn't mean we can just forget the past. 

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

Deleted by moderator

 

Deleted as a response to a deleted post.

[Happy2BaMom]

21 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

In my own family history there is abuse, incest, murder, alcoholism, mental illness, ‘broken’ branches of the family tree forever cut off, you name it. And yes, some very painful history of oppression at the hands of others, primarily due to religion and ethnic identity.

The focus on all the wrongs and horribleness of the past does very little to benefit us in the future, especially people who are redeemed from precisely all those sins that haunt their history. As a Christian, I think it is explicit that we NOT dwell on the differences and wrongs but in unity in Christ. And there was plenty said about this throughout the new, developing church after Pentecost. Where slaves and their masters, people groups with profound violent histories, the marginalized, the purposefully separated, all came together under a banner of unity in mind and heart because it was Christ who created that in them. Allowed them to move beyond their pasts and hurts and become a new creation, with a new family and a shared hope that the world could not corrupt.

As a believer, this shouldn’t even really be debatable, honestly. The Word is very clear on what some of us once were, and who we are now as found in Christ.

For many POC, the violence and systematic, enforced inequities are not in the past. They’re the living present.
And all too often, those experiences are dismissed by many as “does not exist”, “overblown”, etc. 

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Exactly. 

So often the Christian response is, "get over it" or "forgive and forget." It glosses over the need to heal and make things right. 

A Catholic priest explained purgatory to me this way. When we sin, we cause damage. We ask God for forgiveness and He forgives us but it does not fix the damage. 

I'm thinking of those Duggar girls who had to forgive their brother and keep living with him. 

There's something wrong with the idea that we forgive and "move on." 

Also, I think the decision to move on should be made by the victims. It's not up to me as a white person to say that African Americans should not dwell on the past. Their pain is not mine. 

And we're also assuming that absolution has been sought. Too often, when minorities are advised to "not dwell on the past," there hasn't been a request for forgiveness or an admission of guilt. 

 

It is what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called..."cheap grace".

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

IT IS NOT PAST. It is present. And keeping sweet isn’t going to dismantle the systems we’ve created to ensure the status quo is maintained in perpetuity. That same perseverance against all manner of trials is the one that has sustained the civil rights movement from beginning to end. That spiritual family can be a force for good, a force for change or it can be a force for maintaining an unequal system. Clearly many churches in America have chosen the latter. I come from a faith tradition that promotes the former.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[shinyhappypeople]

Deleted.  I got too political.

Edited July 27, 2020 by shinyhappypeople

[shinyhappypeople]

24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

IT IS NOT PAST. It is present. And keeping sweet isn’t going to dismantle the systems we’ve created to ensure the status quo is maintained in perpetuity. That same perseverance against all manner of trials is the one that has sustained the civil rights movement from beginning to end. That spiritual family can be a force for good, a force for change or it can be a force for maintaining an unequal system. Clearly many churches in America have chosen the latter. I come from a faith tradition that promotes the former.

Which systems?

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Which systems?

Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that. We have never fully reckoned with, atoned for, or remediated the harm those systems have done and still do. Simply saying, I’m no longer going to bar you from owning fast-appreciating real estate or getting loans for your farm doesn’t change the 100 year head start on wealth-building you received. Those who simply want to move along and pretend we’re all starting equal or should start equal in the absence of that reckoning are espousing a form of cheap grace that redounds to their benefit at the expense of marginalized groups. Christianity, itself, is a system that has been used to pacify the victims, comfort the perpetrators, and prevent this reckoning.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[shinyhappypeople]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that.

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

Disparate drug sentencing guidelines for substances used primarily in black/brown communities vs white ones. Opioids and Cocaine vs. Crack, for example. Redlining (which now goes by another name... risk assessment). Alternative/temporary teacher licensure (which means underprepared teachers are more common in schools where kids need more experienced educators). Shall I go on? You will never turn me libertarian b/c I do not believe that discrimination in public accommodations is ever or can ever be justified. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Spy Car]

3 hours ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I just shrug and don’t care. I’m a big believer in ‘live and let live’ and privately holding a different opinion or stance has rarely interferes with my enjoyment or useful of particular groups.  I just don’t poke at places we disagree. Why do they have to align with me for me to have fun it be involved? If I differ from the main group’s thinking, so what?

If it is so fundamental to the function of the group it can’t be ignored, I leave and look for a better fit. It’s not inherently a flaw with *them* that they might not match *me*. That’s just arrogant.

People huddling together unmasked during a deadly pandemic strikes me as the opposite of "live and let live."

Bill

[Innisfree]

45 minutes ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Do you want to have a conversation about this?  You're painting with a pretty broad brush.  Can you be more specific? What are some laws or actual policies in place that promote/maintain inequality in those systems?  I tend to agree that the social safety net system is deeply dysfunctional and is designed to keep people fed and poor (my DH works for them, I could tell stories that would turn you Libertarian) - but even with that, I don't see it as targeting a specific race or ethnicity.  He works in a predominantly white county.  Same garbage is there as in the more racially diverse communities.

A recent article on the continuing legacy of redlining:

Quote

Discriminatory housing policies were outlawed by the Fair Housing Act of 1968 but their effects still linger.

The racist housing policy of redlining assigned grade levels and color codes to neighborhoods to indicate local lenders’ perceived credit risk based in large part on the residents’ race and ethnicity, and it was outlawed in the 1960s. Urban areas with a large share of black families were typically redlined, which made it nearly impossible to qualify for a mortgage. A recent study by Redfin found that the typical home in a redlined neighborhood gained $212,023 or 52 percent less than one in a “greenlined” neighborhood over the past 40 years. Today, black homeowners are five times as likely to own in a formerly redlined neighborhood than a greenlined one, according to Redfin’s study.

“This equates to homes that are worth less, have less equity and are in neighborhoods deemed less desirable due to the lingering effects of redlining,” says Christensen.

The ongoing impact of redlining is illustrated by the disparity in home values between Montgomery County and Prince George’s County in suburban Maryland, says Hazel Shakur, a real estate agent with Redfin in Prince George’s County.

Recently, a single-family "home in Montgomery County sold for $465,000, while a similar home in Prince George’s County sold for $370,000,” says Shakur. “What could account for a $95,000 difference? It really boils down to the lack of amenities and poor school rankings in Prince George’s County. The lack of investment in Prince George’s County is a lingering impact of redlining.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/black-homeownership-gap/?arc404=true

The whole article is worth reading, but WaPo does have a paywall.

This is a case where the policy has been changed, but the damage done by that longtime policy has not been redressed. The damage is pervasive and ongoing.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I didn’t say any of what you ladies just typed. My point was about personal identity and redemption in Christ as new creations, from a biblical perspective. Moving forward in Christian unity as a global church focused on Jesus is quite a lot different than ‘forgive and forget’. And if someone claims to mantle of Christ and does NOT believe they are a new creation, with a new heart, united  in fellowship with a new spiritual family and given grace and peace and perseverance for all manner of pain and trials, I’d very much question what the faith is actually built upon at all. This is my core rejection of critical race theory, especially in the church - there is no true redemption. No lasting salvation. No atonement that is actually complete.

I was specifically addressing @Dreamergal, but I think it is broadly applicable in the church right now. And it has nothing to do with ignoring current suffering and pain or sin, but how one frames the *solution* to those endemic problems of fallen man, whose heart is filled with division and hate. There are things to be done now in how to right ongoing wrongs, but that is never and can never be a final, lasting solution to a problem that is primarily in the hearts of all men. 
 

I’ll end the soap box, but if you think a Christian exhorting another Christian to redemption and love instead of the pains of the past is the problem, I really don’t think there is anything more to be said. Sigh.

 

I think some of us may be a little triggered by having had past experience with these arguments used in an abusive way.  When it’s an abusive person using them against the person they’ve abused in some way it just becomes a part of the pattern of abuse.  Forgiveness is essential - so are the exhortations to not offend against the little ones and to seek out the wounded or injured brother and seek to heal. Some people want all the forgiveness without doing the work needed on their end.  In which case it just becomes a way to cover stuff up without dealing with it.

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

If you are talking about direct, personal sin, I agree the biblical pattern of reconciliation is called for, certainly. One needs to ask forgiveness and, if appropriate, give restitution personally for the wrong done.

The sticky wicket is when you’re talking in vague, general terms about systems and histories. Things that an individual currently cannot change and did not create, things that cannot ever actually be fixed by an act of contrition and confession of sin and trying to right a wrong personally inflicted. That begins to lose biblical ground fast, and is usually where the CRT thing camps out. In these vast, vague wrongs that Christ’s mercy and transformation in the life of a believer can’t ever fix for someone else. That is not the same discussion.

 

And therein lies the rub. This is an opinion that lacks any basis in fact. There are specific laws and policies, still in effect, that we can/should change. It is, indeed, possible to correct these things as we've seen demonstrated in many places around the world (and even in our own). Internment reparations? Paid. 9/11 reparations? Paid. Apartheid reparations? Paid. We even paid reparations to victims of the holocaust when we had nothing to do with their treatment overseas. The fact is, these systems of abuse (to include redlining) ended DURING the lifetimes of living individuals in this country. Both the victims and the perpetrators are still alive. Ruby Bridges is 65 years old. LET THAT SINK IN. We just lost not one but two giants who fought this fight in the last two weeks. Is the goal to make sure they all die off so we can absolve ourselves of any guilty feelings with still more cheap grace? What steps we take to right the wrongs may be debated (I'm not even necessarily talking about dollars and cents) but the fact that something is owed seems patently obvious to me. Equally obvious is the lack of contrition.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Alte Veste Academy]

1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

A recent article on the continuing legacy of redlining:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/black-homeownership-gap/?arc404=true

The whole article is worth reading, but WaPo does have a paywall.

This is a case where the policy has been changed, but the damage done by that longtime policy has not been redressed. The damage is pervasive and ongoing.

Right.

And another huge one for me (which is connected in many places to housing) is the issue of inequality in education. Public schools should be funded equitably, period. There should be no such thing as well-funded schools and under-funded schools. The elementary school in the rich part of town should not have the newest technology and the most resources while the elementary school in the poor part of town has outdated textbooks and mold in the walls. Kids are absolutely not given equal starts in life by the government of our cities/states/country, and that is on top of whether or not they happen to win the "birth lottery." 

55 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

And therein lies the rub. This is an opinion that lacks any basis in fact. There are specific laws and policies, still in effect, that we can/should change. It is, indeed, possible to correct these things as we've seen demonstrated in many places around the world (and even in our own). Internment reparations? Paid. 9/11 reparations? Paid. Apartheid reparations? Paid. We even paid reparations to victims of the holocaust when we had nothing to do with their treatment overseas. The fact is, these systems of abuse (to include redlining) ended DURING the lifetimes of living individuals in this country. Both the victims and the perpetrators are still alive. Ruby Bridges is 65 years old. LET THAT SINK IN. We just lost not one but two giants who fought this fight in the last two weeks. Is the goal to make sure they all die off so we can absolve ourselves of any guilty feelings with still more cheap grace? What steps we take to right the wrongs may be debated (I'm not even necessarily talking about dollars and cents) but the fact that something is owed seems patently obvious to me. Equally obvious is the lack of contrition.

Aside from laws and policies which can provide remedies, there is also separation of church and state in this country. Political contrition and reparation is very distinct from religious contrition and redemption. I understand that religion guides individual understanding, and so it is coming up in conversation, but no one is asking the church to fix things that the government needs to fix. 

This conversation has swayed from individual to governmental considerations though. Obviously religious convictions will influence an individual's standing on every issue, but they should not dictate the nation's standing on any issue. 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Alte Veste Academy

[shinyhappypeople]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Honestly, how do you not know about laws and policies that promote inequality? 

Because when I ask the question I generally get snotty responses.   I appreciated SneezyOne giving actual examples that can be discussed.  

Edited July 27, 2020 by shinyhappypeople

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Alte Veste Academy said:

Right.

And another huge one for me (which is connected in many places to housing) is the issue of inequality in education. Public schools should be funded equitably, period. There should be no such thing as well-funded schools and under-funded schools. The elementary school in the rich part of town should not have the newest technology and the most resources while the elementary school in the poor part of town has outdated textbooks and mold in the walls. Kids are absolutely not given equal starts in life by the government of our cities/states/country, and that is on top of whether or not they happen to win the "birth lottery." 

Aside from laws and policies which can provide remedies, there is also separation of church and state in this country. Political contrition and reparation is very distinct from religious contrition and redemption. I understand that religion guides individual understanding, and so it is coming up in conversation, but no one is asking the church to fix things that the government needs to fix. 

This conversation has swayed from individual to governmental considerations though. Obviously religious convictions will influence an individual's standing on every issue, but they should not dictate the nation's standing on any issue. 

 

 

Oh, for sure. But it is absolutely damning and dismaying that members of the church pick and choose when to apply biblical principles. The personal *is* political...unless it's too uncomfortable and potentially disruptive. My issue is the decided lack of care/concern among certain segments of christianity that want to engage in biblical legislating only when it's convenient and not when it requires real work/inconvenience/$$. COVID is just another manifestation of this refusal to do hard things that don't make you feel good/morally superior. Individual christians also have a duty to steer their bodies/congregations in a way that addresses these wrongs and demonstrates care for others.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[bolt.]

21 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

My (large, Canadian) city has one public school board. Schools all get the same funding per student all over the city. (All school boards get the same throughout the province.) There isn't another form of funding available to schools, except that it is possible to run fundraising events through a school counsel. I suppose those would be most successful in upper middle class neigbourhoods, but there's really only so much fundraising that can be done.

Wealthy people aren't likely to donate *that* much year-after-year just to build up a perfectly good local public school with a little extra tech or what-not. (If they want to put tens of thousands of dollars into a thing, they pick a private school.) I think maybe it's the baseline that's helping forstall excessive donors looking for loopholes. If the school is already doing a reasonably good job, there's not much motivation to invest a ton of one's personal wealth into a few frills at your kids' school.

Edited July 27, 2020 by bolt.

[Alte Veste Academy]

11 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

How does that work???  Texas tried that with the Robin Hood plan, it has been a disaster and hasn't worked. Wealthy people will work to make sure their kids get the best schooling, best technology.  Heck, it is why I withdrew from our lousy public school and started homeschooling.  How do you make sure this happens practically.  Each district had equal amounts of money from the state. The wealthier districts just found loopholes or donors to provide more. I don't see how you avoid that.

That's a lot of question marks. LOL

First of all, I don't think schools should be funded by property taxes. Not the least of which because property taxes in Texas are outrageous... That alone would help people feel not so personally violated by the whole they're stealing from me to help the poor. 

Of course wealthy people will pay for the absolute best. Of course there will always be more. Leaving that aside, the vast majority are not members of that upper class. And you kind of help my point. Rich people, better off people, even people who can afford to homeschool will do what it takes to get their kids the best education they can work out, the more. That makes it even more important that poor kids aren't handicapped by dilapidated schools with inadequate funding. 

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

1 minute ago, Happymomof1 said:

Like I said. I'm reading. No, I know NO ONE who has ever been in jail. So how would I know? Yes, I know they were segregated before I was born. The town I am currently living in had 2 schools one for white, one for black.  But since I've been born they have been integrated.  So what is there to fix?  

Do you read current events and watch the news, both with a variety of sources? Diversity in sources for current events is so important, but it seems that there is less and less of that going on these days. I absolutely force myself to watch and read the news that is opposite of my own viewpoint, just to stay informed.

People are incredulous that you don't see it because it is everywhere now, on our local news, our national news, our papers, our magazine articles, etc. It's literally in the streets right now, with people telling their stories. If your news isn't covering it, then that is a reason to watch/read more widely. If you are just not consuming news, that's something else entirely.  

[Alte Veste Academy]

 

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

IT IS NOT PAST. It is present. And keeping sweet isn’t going to dismantle the systems we’ve created to ensure the status quo is maintained in perpetuity. That same perseverance against all manner of trials is the one that has sustained the civil rights movement from beginning to end. That spiritual family can be a force for good, a force for change or it can be a force for maintaining an unequal system. Clearly many churches in America have chosen the latter. I come from a faith tradition that promotes the former.

 

4 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

Which systems?

I just want to say just this one single issue/argument/throwing-up-of-hands about school funding is so complicated, how can we possibly solve it is, in and of itself, a perfect example of the legacy of inequality.

Why is school funding so complicated? Why is it inequitable? Why is it so hard, feeling next to impossible, to figure out how to fix it? The answer is the lingering effects of past policies. Cultural ideology and intentional action got us here, and only a change in cultural ideology followed by intentional action will get us out.   

Edited July 27, 2020 by Alte Veste Academy

[Alte Veste Academy]

8 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

NOW it is.  No, I really don't watch any news.  To be honest, I find most of my current events stuff out here on this board. Like, you guys were talking about Covid WAY WAY before anyone in real life was.   I will glance at the headlines on CNN or FOX just to sort of see, but reading it on either makes me upset.  Plus THIS BOARD told me to stay off the news as it affected my mental health.

But most of my reading was reading ahead for homeschooling or ancient history or American history or how to be a better parent. Now I'm reading books and books on theology or Bible commentary in my seminary classes.  But it is my new seminary friends that I met in person this past year, many of whom are young Black men and women where I heard the stories. I cannot tell you how much I miss going in person to class. I had never heard of Spoken Word until a worship class I had.  I've heard of many things I'd never heard of before. It was a different world.  And now I'm stuck here...feeling like an oddball in a culture I do not fit.  Literally, I do not understand how most of the people in my community think...

I have not always had the time for the news that I have now. My kids are old and ignore me unless they are hungry. LOL

It has always been in the news though. Moreso now for sure, for obvious reasons. But what you read determines what you are aware of. I spent years reading middle school history to prepare for homeschooling as well, so I've been there. I do, however, have a very diverse past with a very diverse group of friends and have lived all over the world (retired Army brat, retired Army wife). So that helped. I never had the idea that people weren't treated differently from me because my life has been spent surrounded by people who are different from me.

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Our criminal justice systems. Our education systems. Our financial systems. Our housing systems. Our social safety net systems. All were designed to maintain inequality and they’ve done a heckuva job doing exactly that. We have never fully reckoned with, atoned for, or remediated the harm those systems have done and still do. Simply saying, I’m no longer going to bar you from owning fast-appreciating real estate or getting loans for your farm doesn’t change the 100 year head start on wealth-building you received. Those who simply want to move along and pretend we’re all starting equal or should start equal in the absence of that reckoning are espousing a form of cheap grace that redounds to their benefit at the expense of marginalized groups. Christianity, itself, is a system that has been used to pacify the victims, comfort the perpetrators, and prevent this reckoning.

I certainly didn't receive any 100 year head start on wealth building.  My parents came here as refugees after having been enslaved in Soviet Gulags during WW2.  My husband's family came earlier but also had no wealth at all- in fact, he was poorer than me.  So many of the poor whites I see living in rural areas/mountainous areas didn't receive any wealth building either.  What housing systems?  People can buy houses wherever they can afford and can buy.   Have there been racist realtors and maybe still are racist realtors?  Yes-I agree that there has been a problem but it is easily overcome by firing that realtor and going with another.  Differing outcomes does not necessarily equate to racism at all.  

In fact,. the only racism I have seen on TV in the past few years is against Asian Americans.  And I have been shocked by it.  But lots of people seem to still think it is okay to make fun of Asians- be it Indians and Pakistanis or East Asians.  I don't get it at all.  

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I certainly didn't receive any 100 year head start on wealth building.  My parents came here as refugees after having been enslaved in Soviet Gulags during WW2.  My husband's family came earlier but also had no wealth at all- in fact, he was poorer than me.  So many of the poor whites I see living in rural areas/mountainous areas didn't receive any wealth building either.  What housing systems?  People can buy houses wherever they can afford and can buy.   Have there been racist realtors and maybe still are racist realtors?  Yes-I agree that there has been a problem but it is easily overcome by firing that realtor and going with another.  Differing outcomes does not necessarily equate to racism at all.  

In fact,. the only racism I have seen on TV in the past few years is against Asian Americans.  And I have been shocked by it.  But lots of people seem to still think it is okay to make fun of Asians- be it Indians and Pakistanis or East Asians.  I don't get it at all.  

 

*I* am specifically talking about those marginalized groups that have been here that long. It doesn't apply to you and I wouldn't expect you to understand that experience or the history without study. Study is in order here. I'm not making up our history WRT the GI Bill, redlining, Social Security WRT domestic workers, and discrimination in farm loans. I seriously don't have time to address all of the misinformation this contains but you can google these issues to start. I can literally trace my family back to the late 1880s and that's it without expert assistance. I know my 3rd great grandparent(s), the males, on both sides are white. It's written all over my grandfather and great grandfathers faces. Half of my aunts/uncles on that side passed into whiteness. They literally lost their families and histories and heritage to rape and discrimination. When those relatives of mine left slavery, with nothing but the clothes on their back, they scraped up enough to buy acres of land in the Yakima Valley. They were forced to sell it when they could not get a Farm Bureau loan after the Great Depression. When they took the proceeds and bought property in Seattle, there were no racially restrictive covenants. That quickly changed, cosigned by SCOTUS, and they became an island of black in an all white neighborhood. All of the subsequent black families were consigned to the Central and International districts. You could not buy in my grandmother's neighborhood if you weren't white. This blindness to the cumulative affects of policies like this is willful. Do better.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

 

I, for one, don't want or need an 'I'm sorry'. I, too, am action oriented. I want to see restorative justice in the form of criminal justice reform, environmental justice policies (like compensation in the form of long-term healthcare for those harmed by environmental hazards located in low-income/minority communities...see Flint Water, for ex., much like we do for black lung). I would like to see broadband expansion to low-income/rural communities. I would like to see infrastructure and physical plant improvements in schools which will draw people and investment back to underserved communities (with carveouts to preserve rental housing availability). I would like to see many, many things. 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

You can't just fix one thing that is part of a bad system. I can't speak specifically to the Texas plan as I do not live in Texas. But there are people advocating for plans that would probably help. What so often happens in this country is that something is done half way. It fails and we all conclude that nothing can help. That's not true. 

Okay, first you've definitely seen someone be discriminated against. We all have. We might not have recognized it as discrimination but it was still discrimination. 

These problems are not limited  to the big city. 

I don't mean to sound snarky but do some homework. Why should someone need to tell you who to write and what to do? 

Like I wrote above, I have a hard time understanding how people can be unaware of the laws and policies that create inequality in this country. Did you notice that African Americans were incarcerated at higher levels than caucasians? Did you notice that most of us live with defacto segregation? Some schools are almost all white and other schools are almost all minority. Did you think that happened naturally? 

Taking away the drug crimes which not only do I agree have been unequally judged but within the last 4 years, Trump and the Congress have addressed some of that inequity,  I agree more should be done with that.  But murders, for which I think everyone agrees should be incarcerated, are committed by AA men at a much higher percentage than white men.  What would you have us do?  As a criminal justice grad student, I looked at those numbers.  Others have researched it too.  Most of the disparity in sentencing has to do with violence and past records.  

We have forced desegregation here.  We still have mostly black schools because there is not enough whites in the schools to stop that from happening.  And in some areas, the all black or mostly black  schools are begging to stay open by the parents and the community.  

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

We have forced desegregation here.  We still have mostly black schools because there is not enough whites in the schools to stop that from happening.  And in some areas, the all black or mostly black  schools are begging to stay open by the parents and the community.  

 

Again. DO BETTER. Controlling for criminal histories, disparities (big ones) still exist. There is no such thing as forced desegregation in America. Congress REDUCED the sentencing disparities between crack and cocaine to 20 to 1 vs. 100 to 1. Are folks supposed to bow down in gratitude?

[bolt.]

15 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Yeah, but it feels like I'm just supposed to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, much like the prophets in the Bible I should confess and repent of my nation's sin, but then they were supposed to DO something.  They destroyed the temples and places of worship for the idols. They read the word of God again.  I am a task-oriented list maker more than a people person, though everything I do is FOR other people.  So if I am failing as a homeschooler in math, then I find a tutor. I enroll them in an AP class whatever.  But all of this race stuff is like the Covid stuff, there just doesn't seem to be a clear plan of action and it is driving me nuts.  Tell me what I can do to fix it, and I'm there. Problem is, a lot of this is driven by the behavior of others, which I cannot fix, which makes me more frustrated, which makes me angry and sad.  So I retreat, and grow my vegetable and read my books and write and ignore it all. Because I cannot stand feeling powerless to fix something.

If that powerless-to-fix-it feeling is so intolerable to you, who are not being injured by it... Can you imagine how it feels to be powerless to fix something this big for other people who actually suffer and are injured by it? You don't like it so you garden. They don't like it either. Are they free to grow vegetables until their feelings are less sharp on the topic? Until the path becomes clearer? Or is something standing in their way that maybe isn't standing in your way?

There are lists of things everyday people can do to help with systemic inequality. I wouldn't be surprised if vegetables might be a tool to help others. Reading and writing certainly are!

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Happymomof1 said:

 Can you give me some of the possible solutions?

 

No, she can't/won't. B/C she doesn't actually believe there's a problem that needs to be addressed. The whole "I'm concerned..." and "What about..." shtick is both predictable and disingenuous.