"I want to talk to the manager"

[Jean in Newcastle]

I want to talk about only one small part of the Karen meme/ persona - the "I want to talk to the manager" part.  I don't feel like I'm the other parts of the Karen stereotype - entitled, racist, trying to put people down.  But I have asked to talk to a manager before.  The thing is, my non-white husband is more likely to not have to "throw his weight around" and ask for a manager because he will get treated right to begin with.  I've heard this said by women with white husbands too so I think it's a gender thing, not a race thing.  (Though obviously people have experiences with racists too.  I am not in anyway discounting those experiences.  I'm just focusing on one small thing that applies to me.)  I'm not asking to talk to the manager to get anything special or that shouldn't be given to all people though.  So my question - is there a nuance to the manager thing or is it all requests to go up the chain of command? 

[ElizabethB]

It is only said about people who complain about everything and stupid things. I'm sure you're not in that category.

Some of it may be bearing--you likely come across as too nice!  If people start being difficult, I put on my military persona and people don't mess with me.

But, in the South, there was a gender thing with talking to the repair people, they were more likely to dismiss a female. I never really want to talk about water heaters anyway, so I was happy to let my husband talk to those kind of people.

When we lived in Virginia, we rented my FIL's house, there was a gas leak while I was home with the kids, I called him and he talked my through the gas system, how it worked, how to shut it down. It was actually an extensive system, an older house.  You can't stop him, he'll tell you 1 billion things you don't want to know. (He's great, though, he just talks a lot and describes things in excruciating detail.) When the gas guy came to check it out, my husband was home but I just had him take the kids out since we weren't in the South and I had been all briefed up about the situation. The gas guy told me, "You know more about your gas system than any woman I've met."  I just said thank you, but was thinking, "I know more about my gas system than I want to know."

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

 

Some of it may be bearing--you likely come across as too nice!  If people start being difficult, I put on my military persona and people don't mess with me.

 

If I have to, I can put on my teacher voice:  firm but still polite.  Which is the same as my mama voice.  I have only had one time when I literally went toe to toe with an ex-military general (company VP).  He was beet red and screaming in my face and I was standing my ground.  He lost it and yelled "I'm glad that you were never in the army!"  and I yelled back "I'm glad that I was never in the army either!"  Everyone, including my immediate boss were thinking for sure that I was fired but after that, this VP always especially asked for me to be on his team if we had a big project. 

[ElizabethB]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

If I have to, I can put on my teacher voice:  firm but still polite.  Which is the same as my mama voice.  I have only had one time when I literally went toe to toe with an ex-military general (company VP).  He was beet red and screaming in my face and I was standing my ground.  He lost it and yelled "I'm glad that you were never in the army!"  and I yelled back "I'm glad that I was never in the army either!"  Everyone, including my immediate boss were thinking for sure that I was fired but after that, this VP always especially asked for me to be on his team if we had a big project. 

Most military people respect people who stand up for themselves. He was actually probably less likely to want you on big projects if you had just wilted.

[GoodGrief]

The meme may have started with good intentions but at this point it's about shaming women of a certain age that stand up for themselves.

[Terabith]

I think the Karen meme needs to be replaced by Ivanka.  

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah I’ve found myself asking if I’m a Karen sometimes... but hey.  Maybe we will get some shirts printed saying “Karen and proud of it” or something.  Actually if my real name was Karen I probably would wear that ...

[Jean in Newcastle]

29 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The meme may have started with good intentions but at this point it's about shaming women of a certain age that stand up for themselves.

I actually disagree. At least not the way it has evolved. I think it is about being entitled and using that entitlement to belittle others. I think that behavior should be called out. I don’t know of any situations where someone is called out for being a “Karen “ for being kind or minding their own business. (The origins of the term which had to do with asking for a manager is where I was fuzzier.). 

[Pawz4me]

I feel sorry for all the women named Karen.

I am so not a "Karen" although I can certainly hold my ground with the best of them when necessary. It's rarely necessary.

The meme needs to go away. (As do all memes--I despise them with a fiery hot passion. They're all stupid in some way or other. Every single one.)

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah I’ve found myself asking if I’m a Karen sometimes... but hey.  Maybe we will get some shirts printed saying “Karen and proud of it” or something.  Actually if my real name was Karen I probably would wear that ...

I was just discussing this with a friend who is actually named Karen on my FB. (I was saying, can we quit with using Karen as a derogatory?) She said the thing that bothers her most is when she tried (online) to debate about something and someone doesn’t like her POV, they ridicule that she is actually named Karen so it figures. I find that gross behavior. 

[Carrie12345]

I was raised by people in service industries (including phone customer service) and spent a decent amount of time in them myself.  There are lots of things that I let go because that’s just life, but I did pick up on the right tone and phrasing for when something really does need to be fixed, and the difference between working with someone who IS trying to help you and someone who isn’t. 

A Karen, even before “she” became the woman who calls the police, will throw a fit for any stupid little thing and is determined to “win” rather than work with someone to find a reasonable solution.

FYI, I like “What can we do to <insert the solution I want>” or “Is there someone who can help me to <same thing>” a lot better than “I want to speak to the manager.” 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do agree that the word used ("Karen") or (is it "Chad" for a man? not sure) is not something I like.  It's the spoiled behavior itself that I think should be confronted.  These are people who have gotten away with having real grown up tantrums. 

Back to the "I want to talk to the manager" thing.  I find it difficult to put in words when I am unhappy with service.  I don't mean small things.  I overlook small things.  But as an example - we recently went without phone service for over a month while still paying for it because the phone company switched some things up without telling us.  It took us four hour-long calls to finally come to a resolution and even then I was the one who had to bring up the fact that we shouldn't have to pay for a month's service that we didn't even get.  Carrie -  I like your phrasing. 

[Wheres Toto]

As someone who worked in retail for a long time and was on the other end of this, it's definitely that person who knows they are asking for something they really shouldn't get, who comes up with an attitude of bullying the poor worker who has to deal with them, and often makes a fuss to get attention from everyone around them because being disruptive as possible often gets them what they want.  

I used to work a customer service desk in a retail store and generally if there was something I couldn't help someone with, I called the manager.  Or if I told them the policy and they asked nicely, I checked with the manager.  If they were obnoxious and bullying, I called the manager.   In some cases it was because I wanted to be helpful.  In others, it was because I wasn't paid enough to deal with that s***.

[BlsdMama]

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I want to talk about only one small part of the Karen meme/ persona - the "I want to talk to the manager" part.  I don't feel like I'm the other parts of the Karen stereotype - entitled, racist, trying to put people down.  But I have asked to talk to a manager before.  The thing is, my non-white husband is more likely to not have to "throw his weight around" and ask for a manager because he will get treated right to begin with.  I've heard this said by women with white husbands too so I think it's a gender thing, not a race thing.  (Though obviously people have experiences with racists too.  I am not in anyway discounting those experiences.  I'm just focusing on one small thing that applies to me.)  I'm not asking to talk to the manager to get anything special or that shouldn't be given to all people though.  So my question - is there a nuance to the manager thing or is it all requests to go up the chain of command? 

Out of all the classes I've taken the past few years, the most fascinating (by a long shot) was one called The Psychology of Leadership.  Let's take for instance O'Bama's election.  The professor was convinced it was easily discernible who would win that election.  What does the American society prize?  Status.

Jean, I know you have health issues.  Are they apparent to the eye?  I am treated markedly different since becoming disabled.  Apparently, I've lost not only my ability to understand but also to hear!  And here I just thought it was affecting my LEGS - who knew? (smirk.)

Intelligence is generally minimized to a category of "Education."  Wealth and job title are relevant.  Height plays a remarkable role and it's why many short politicians will have special shoes to make them taller.  Physical attractiveness is important.  So, when you have a pretty good lookin' fella like O'bama, who is fit and tall, educated at both Columbia AND Harvard, and has made his living as a lawyer, you have a guy who oozes status.  Throw in a hot wife and the ability to speak well? He was a shoo-in, regardless of his very limited political experience.

So, if  you're asking how do you get treated better consistently? I guess the answer is, "Look hauty, carry yourself as though you are refined and well to do, dress expensively, wear heels, don't have a disability, and be physically attractive." -Shockingly difficult things to do hunched over a walker.  (Roll eyes.)


Edited to Add: We also went over gender and yes, males will pull more status  than women.  Though a well dressed and articulate woman will usually garner more respect than a blue collar male not dressed well.  I found it interesting though that when a woman is in a leadership role, she is more likely to be hated by other woman and judged more harshly than by men, although both men and women judge leadership abilities better for men across the board.   You would be better off asking for a manager only if the manager is male.  Likely if it is a woman, it will be less helpful.  If it's a woman? Your husband is better off speaking.  If that isn't an option, use pronouns like we and maintain positivity.  Sigh.  Look at them hoops.  Now jump.
  

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by BlsdMama

[alisoncooks]

6 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The meme may have started with good intentions but at this point it's about shaming women of a certain age that stand up for themselves.

I think I'm with you. I dislike entitlement as much as the next person, but I hate women silenced for fear of being seen as a Karen. Historically, it's not been that long that we (women) have been able to speak for ourselves and demand our right. I *get* the meme but I don't love it. 

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I feel sorry for all the women named Karen.

I am so not a "Karen" although I can certainly hold my ground with the best of them when necessary. It's rarely necessary.

The meme needs to go away. (As do all memes--I despise them with a fiery hot passion. They're all stupid in some way or other. Every single one.)

Me too.  Karen was a common name a few years back and were no more unreasonable than anyone else 

[kiwik]

9 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I think I’ve asked to talk to the manager twice in my life, both for very good reasons. I have an extensive background in customer service in food and hospitality, so I’m not really the ‘rag on the waiter’ type, but there are reasons perfectly kind and normal women would need to speak with management. The meme is making fun of a very specific type who think the world revolves around them and won’t take no for an answer, and that’s quite a different thing 🙂

I have with government call centres but mostly because the supervisors tend to know more so it is quicker.

[PrincessMommy]

8 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I want to talk about only one small part of the Karen meme/ persona - the "I want to talk to the manager" part.  I don't feel like I'm the other parts of the Karen stereotype - entitled, racist, trying to put people down.  But I have asked to talk to a manager before.  The thing is, my non-white husband is more likely to not have to "throw his weight around" and ask for a manager because he will get treated right to begin with.  I've heard this said by women with white husbands too so I think it's a gender thing, not a race thing.  (Though obviously people have experiences with racists too.  I am not in anyway discounting those experiences.  I'm just focusing on one small thing that applies to me.)  I'm not asking to talk to the manager to get anything special or that shouldn't be given to all people though.  So my question - is there a nuance to the manager thing or is it all requests to go up the chain of command? 

 

7 minutes ago, Bagels McGruffikin said:

I think I’ve asked to talk to the manager twice in my life, both for very good reasons. I have an extensive background in customer service in food and hospitality, so I’m not really the ‘rag on the waiter’ type, but there are reasons perfectly kind and normal women would need to speak with management. The meme is making fun of a very specific type who think the world revolves around them and won’t take no for an answer, and that’s quite a different thing 🙂

What she said.  It's usually a woman of a certain age as well... 😄

 

I will say I'm getting a little tired of *everyone* who is awful being call "Karen".  That's not what it means, IMHO.  

There was an example in the news yesterday of a woman who refused to wear a mask when asked, and then she threatened to pull a gun on the store employee.. 😲  The title had something like "local Karen....."     

It seems like both Nazi and Karen are being way overused to describe someone we don't like.  

[PrincessMommy]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I feel sorry for all the women named Karen.

I am so not a "Karen" although I can certainly hold my ground with the best of them when necessary. It's rarely necessary.

The meme needs to go away. (As do all memes--I despise them with a fiery hot passion. They're all stupid in some way or other. Every single one.)

I know a Karen... she's sweet and in her 30s.  I feel sorry for her too.  

 I agree about the Memes (except the funny ones)... It is another way to shut down any conversation or debate. 

[vonfirmath]

34 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

I think I'm with you. I dislike entitlement as much as the next person, but I hate women silenced for fear of being seen as a Karen. Historically, it's not been that long that we (women) have been able to speak for ourselves and demand our right. I *get* the meme but I don't love it. 

See I have seen the meme thrown out when someone says something the person pulling the meme out does not like. Call the person you are arguing with a childish name instead of confronting what they actually said.

 

[SereneHome]

I think the whole thing is just wrong. We teach little kids not to call each other names, we teach little kids not to stereo type, but evidently it's all just fine for us, adults.  This "Karen" thing, "OK, boomer" thing - all of it is just disgusting.

I've asked to speak to managers plenty of time. And I wouldn't care for a second what anyone called me bc of that or what assumptions they made about me. Bc frankly, if I am expected to be all nice and polite, people should be expected to know their jobs and do their jobs. Unfortunately, that is not the case in many instances.

Also, if all people who create those stupid memes and nicknames and all the shaming they are doing spent a little more time on themselves and their own shortcomings, may be our world wouldn't be so screwed up.

[Acadie]

An aside from the main point of this thread--I saw a photo of a white woman with a protest sign that had two sides.

One side read, "Karens for Racial Justice" and the other "I'd like to talk with the manager of institutionalized racism."

Totally cracked me up. 

[Tanaqui]

It's okay to complain when you're being wronged. And it's okay to escalate to a manager when that's necessary. Just like it's okay to call the police when something actually bad is happening and you're certain they are the correct people to fix it.

It's only a problem when your complaint is the sort of thing that ends up on Not Always Right.

[J-rap]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I feel sorry for all the women named Karen.

I am so not a "Karen" although I can certainly hold my ground with the best of them when necessary. It's rarely necessary.

The meme needs to go away. (As do all memes--I despise them with a fiery hot passion. They're all stupid in some way or other. Every single one.)

I've thought the same thing!   One of my closest friends is named Karen, and she's about as opposite of the Karen meme as you could be.

[happi duck]

I think *some* of the recent rise of the term "Karen" comes from women who called the cops for stupid, racist reasons.  There were other names used but Karen seems to have stuck.

Edited July 24, 2020 by happi duck

[marbel]

I've worked in customer service much of my life, both in person  and now, on the phone/online. I have a kid in retail. My kid will refer to women "walking in with their 'I need to speak to the manager' face on."  

There are often good reasons to ask to speak to a manager but in my experience way too often it is because the person wants something unreasonable. In retail, often it's returning something for cash without a receipt, even though the terms clearly state that a receipt is required or store credit is given.  Or returning clothing obviously bought elsewhere (my kid works in a store that only carries one brand, but people will still bring other brands in and insist they bought it in her store). 

I work in banking now.  Multiple times a day I have people yelling at me to let them speak to a manager because I have to refuse some request. For a recent example... someone wanting to dispute a debit card transaction from 3 years ago.  Yeah, the law gives 60 days to dispute, not 1000. Yelling at me because they are a victim of fraud -- that they apparently just noticed? WTH. Check your bank statements, kids. Talking to a manager isn't going to help, but if it makes you feel better, sure. 

Now, if there is something reasonable a person wants - say, they messed up on a transaction and bounced a check and there are fees, and it's not a common occurrence for them - I will always offer to send it to a manager to get the fees rebated.  It's easier though if they don't come in with guns blazing and trying to deflect blame for the incident, which a lot of people will do. But in my experience it's 30-50 year old men who can't admit they just messed up. Women seem more ready to say "I made this mistake, what do I do, can you please help me?"

Not for anything, but my cousin Karen gets a kick out of all the Karen memes. She doesn't take it personally.  ETA: I have not seen any vicious/hostile ones. 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by marbel

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The meme may have started with good intentions but at this point it's about shaming women {of a certain age} that stand up for themselves.

IRL, I am seeing it used this way. I saw a particularly vicious use of it on FB--someone was holding a large local prom event since the schools cancelled, and a woman was very, very nicely expressing concerns about whether the precautions for COVID were safe enough. She was extremely nice, knowledgeable about the venue, etc. She was called a Karen for doing so. She had mentioned she worked in a medical field, and when someone found out that she wasn't a doctor or nurse (they must've known her IRL or known someone that did), they mocked her as basically being unauthoritative even though her job requires direct patient contact, and she would've been trained in COVID protocols. It was quite bullying. She graciously responded and basically let the negative comments roll off her.

Locally, it's definitely being used to mock people who are trying to be safe. I put age in brackets because it doesn't seem to matter much here.

I suspect it's also being used in the way that Jean understands it to mean as well.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

IRL, I am seeing it used this way. I saw a particularly vicious use of it on FB--someone was holding a large local prom event since the schools cancelled, and a woman was very, very nicely expressing concerns about whether the precautions for COVID were safe enough. She was extremely nice, knowledgeable about the venue, etc. She was called a Karen for doing so. She had mentioned she worked in a medical field, and when someone found out that she wasn't a doctor or nurse (they must've known her IRL or known someone that did), they mocked her as basically being unauthoritative even though her job requires direct patient contact, and she would've been trained in COVID protocols. It was quite bullying. She graciously responded and basically let the negative comments roll off her.

Locally, it's definitely being used to mock people who are trying to be safe. I put age in brackets because it doesn't seem to matter much here.

I suspect it's also being used in the way that Jean understands it to mean as well.

Well, the only place that I've encountered it as a term has been online - especially as attached to viral videos of women behaving very badly towards people of color.  It was only because of explanations of the terms on those articles that I became aware of it as a meme and became aware of the "I want to talk to the manager" part of it.  I've never actually seen or heard someone in real life being referred to that way.  Which probably is a good thing. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Of course the vast majority of people using it don't mean speaking to the manager about legitimate issues in a reasonable way. Of course we expect adult women to know how when to avoid personalizing a term when used generally.  Of course people don't mean all Karens and late Baby Boomer women are like that.  Of course there will lazy people who misuse the term for women with legitimate complaints peaking reasonably. When used according to the original rules of the game it's addressing a constellation of unreasonable behaviors in a subset of late Baby Boomer aged women born at a time when Karen was a very popular baby name for girls. Each generation has its own set of badly behaved people and monkiers are developed and used for them.
 

 

[Selkie]

18 minutes ago, kbutton said:

IRL, I am seeing it used this way. I saw a particularly vicious use of it on FB--someone was holding a large local prom event since the schools cancelled, and a woman was very, very nicely expressing concerns about whether the precautions for COVID were safe enough. She was extremely nice, knowledgeable about the venue, etc. She was called a Karen for doing so. She had mentioned she worked in a medical field, and when someone found out that she wasn't a doctor or nurse (they must've known her IRL or known someone that did), they mocked her as basically being unauthoritative even though her job requires direct patient contact, and she would've been trained in COVID protocols. It was quite bullying. She graciously responded and basically let the negative comments roll off her.

Locally, it's definitely being used to mock people who are trying to be safe. I put age in brackets because it doesn't seem to matter much here.

I suspect it's also being used in the way that Jean understands it to mean as well.

I see this here, too - anti maskers using it to bash any female who doesn't agree with them, regardless of her age.

[LucyStoner]

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I do agree that the word used ("Karen") or (is it "Chad" for a man? not sure) is not something I like.  It's the spoiled behavior itself that I think should be confronted.  These are people who have gotten away with having real grown up tantrums. 

Back to the "I want to talk to the manager" thing.  I find it difficult to put in words when I am unhappy with service.  I don't mean small things.  I overlook small things.  But as an example - we recently went without phone service for over a month while still paying for it because the phone company switched some things up without telling us.  It took us four hour-long calls to finally come to a resolution and even then I was the one who had to bring up the fact that we shouldn't have to pay for a month's service that we didn't even get.  Carrie -  I like your phrasing. 

 

There's not really a widely used male version of Karen.  This is what tipped me off that there is an element of misogyny rolled into how this is getting tossed around.  I am all for addressing people's spoiled and privileged behavior but it's reached a point where it's getting thrown around anytime a white woman stands up for something.  Given that sexism is so often why women have to stand up for ourselves (as you noted in your first post- our husbands don't need to ask for the manager), it's a double whammy of sexism to then call us out for standing up.  I say this as someone who has literally never asked to speak to a manager in a retail or similar setting.  I have called a host of ombudsmen and the like for serious issues around housing, education and special ed though.  

Chad is incel terminology for "alpha male".  

Edited July 24, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Granny_Weatherwax]

As an aside - how many women have changed their hairstyle so they are no longer associated with being a Karen?

[LucyStoner]

I was sorta ok with the Karen meme until I saw several things:

-Efforts to falsely accuse a woman of being "a Karen", including one where a man was clearly harassing a woman wearing nursing scrubs driving a 20 year old subcompact car and falsely accusing her of using a racial slur in a traffic situation, a false accusation that this man has made several times before towards women in the hunt for viral video success.  

-Someone calling out a woman for being a Karen because she was complaining that she had been overcharged at the store.  My mother, who was born into deep rural poverty and died too young and not much better off, used to stand in the store and carefully double check each and every receipt to make sure that she had not overpaid.  And if she had, she would wait and get her $1 or whatever back.  She didn't do this out of privilege, she did it because she rarely had a dollar to spare.  

-Memes that were just blatantly sexist to the point of implying that all Karen needs is a good roll in the hay.  Um, no. 

Sexism runs deep in our culture.  

Edited July 24, 2020 by LucyStoner

[katilac]

9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

So, when you have a pretty good lookin' fella like O'bama, who is fit and tall, educated at both Columbia AND Harvard, and has made his living as a lawyer, you have a guy who oozes status.  Throw in a hot wife and the ability to speak well? He was a shoo-in, regardless of his very limited political experience.

That black man sure is a shoo-in to be president, said no one in America ever. Well, apparently one person, but this take on Obama truly boggles my mind. 

While I'm sure Michelle Obama finds him good looking, and he is indeed fit and tall, he is not stereotypically handsome by a long shot. I mean, he's fit but skinny, and his ears not only stick out so much that endless jokes were made about it, they are also so distinctive looking that a 550 million year old fossil was named after them (Obamus coronatus). And if someone didn't notice the numerous aspersions cast on his wife's looks in mainstream media, well, they weren't paying attention. It was said repeatedly that she eats too much and weighs too much, that she's too muscular for a woman, that she has a big butt, that she's ungracious, that she doesn't know how to dress, that she doesn't look like a First Lady should . . . and that's not even getting into the even more horrifyingly ugly and racist things said by minor politicians and social media. 

Yes, he went to Columbia and Harvard, but I am dubious as to how much the average American cares about that (the real value in Harvard is the network you build, not in the general public being impressed by it). Whatever cachet those schools have was more than offset, imo, by being a person of color, born into a poor and mixed race family, and married to a person of color who didn't fit the expected mold of First Lady. 

Obama being elected because he was of such high status is an argument I have never heard before. I'd be interested to know if others have heard it, because this take on it honestly astounds me. 

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Well, the only place that I've encountered it as a term has been online - especially as attached to viral videos of women behaving very badly towards people of color.  It was only because of explanations of the terms on those articles that I became aware of it as a meme and became aware of the "I want to talk to the manager" part of it.  I've never actually seen or heard someone in real life being referred to that way.  Which probably is a good thing. 

It definitely started with the speaking to the manager bit, a pretty long time ago in meme years. 

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Of course the vast majority of people using it don't mean speaking to the manager about legitimate issues in a reasonable way. Of course we expect adult women to know how when to avoid personalizing a term when used generally.  Of course people don't mean all Karens and late Baby Boomer women are like that.  Of course there will lazy people who misuse the term for women with legitimate complaints peaking reasonably. When used according to the original rules of the game it's addressing a constellation of unreasonable behaviors in a subset of late Baby Boomer aged women born at a time when Karen was a very popular baby name for girls. Each generation has its own set of badly behaved people and monkiers are developed and used for them.

I was going to say all of this but you said it really well, so QFT. 

I don't know anyone who rolls their eyes just because someone asks for a manager ever. It's the attitude and the frequency. If you're worried about being seen as a Karen, take a minute and think of the last few times you've asked to see a manager. If you don't go a month without asking to speak to a manager, it might be because you have an unusual number of business interactions, or it might be that you should ponder your attitude and expectations. If you can't go a week without speaking to a manager, well, you're already there, lol.

Edited July 24, 2020 by katilac

[HS Mom in NC]

Remember, we've had a term for men like this for a looong time now: D!ck.

Here's another Karen parody. 

 

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

I don't know anyone who rolls their eyes just because someone asks for a manager ever. It's the attitude and the frequency. If you're worried about being seen as a Karen, take a minute and think of the last few times you've asked to see a manager. If you don't go a month without asking to speak to a manager, it might be because you have an unusual number of business interactions, or it might be that you should ponder your attitude and expectations. If you can't go a week without speaking to a manager, well, you're already there, lol.

I don't think it's a fair assessment. I probably can go a week without asking for a manager but I do escalate things bc I just don't have the time to keep going in circles with people who are not taking their jobs seriously. 

I had a thread on here awhile back about people's complete lack of reading comprehension or ability to listen. It seems that our standards for what we find acceptable in employees have gone way down. But our expectations of "customers" have gone way up.

I can't remember the last time I was able to only have one conversation about an issue with anyone. And I am not talking customer service in Walmart or Amazon or Comcast.

Every month I have to order my husband's prescription for his MS. I've done it about 9 times at this point. 6 our of those 9 times there was a problem with either what we received or delivery. That's 67% failure rate. From people who are professional pharmacists!  Our auto/home insurance agency - it took 6 phone calls to get my policy straighten out when we bought a new car. It's exhausting. I wish I never had to utter "can I please speak to the manager" ever again!!

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, SereneHome said:

I don't think it's a fair assessment. I probably can go a week without asking for a manager but I do escalate things bc I just don't have the time to keep going in circles with people who are not taking their jobs seriously. 

I had a thread on here awhile back about people's complete lack of reading comprehension or ability to listen. It seems that our standards for what we find acceptable in employees have gone way down. But our expectations of "customers" have gone way up.

I can't remember the last time I was able to only have one conversation about an issue with anyone. And I am not talking customer service in Walmart or Amazon or Comcast.

Every month I have to order my husband's prescription for his MS. I've done it about 9 times at this point. 6 our of those 9 times there was a problem with either what we received or delivery. That's 67% failure rate. From people who are professional pharmacists!  Our auto/home insurance agency - it took 6 phone calls to get my policy straighten out when we bought a new car. It's exhausting. I wish I never had to utter "can I please speak to the manager" ever again!!

It just gets worse and worse in healthcare, IMO (and my DH works in healthcare!). 

Getting ADHD meds for three people each month is an exercise in crazy. For a while it was taking us about 8 hours of effort every.single.month. One of the times I went to check on meds, I was told that they couldn't tell me when the meds were going to be ready because they didn't want to pull an OARS report. I think it was our second visit to the pharmacist, the second day in a row, for that batch of meds. They gave my DH ZERO trouble when I called him and told him to come in and talk with them. It's infuriating. He does it all now, and it's so much smoother. It shouldn't be that way. 

Don't get me started on CVS Caremark mail order...the people on the phone know what they are doing, but that never translates to the right meds in the mail. I bet they hate their jobs!

[stephanier.1765]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Remember, we've had a term for men like this for a looong time now: D!ck.

Here's another Karen parody. 

 

This is SO my neighbor! Who is male and, yes, we use that male term to refer to him. Hate that guy.

 

[SereneHome]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

It just gets worse and worse in healthcare, IMO (and my DH works in healthcare!). 

Getting ADHD meds for three people each month is an exercise in crazy. For a while it was taking us about 8 hours of effort every.single.month. One of the times I went to check on meds, I was told that they couldn't tell me when the meds were going to be ready because they didn't want to pull an OARS report. I think it was our second visit to the pharmacist, the second day in a row, for that batch of meds. They gave my DH ZERO trouble when I called him and told him to come in and talk with them. It's infuriating. He does it all now, and it's so much smoother. It shouldn't be that way. 

Don't get me started on CVS Caremark mail order...the people on the phone know what they are doing, but that never translates to the right meds in the mail. I bet they hate their jobs!

That's who I call - except it's a specialty department. argghhhh

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do have some luck asking people in places like billing offices, insurance etc.  "Can you explain your process to me?"  It helps me to know what the normal hoops are. 

[GoodGrief]

I am all about the strongly worded letter. Hopefully all adults learn to use it, because there are times when one needs to cut through the layers of bureaucracy and get to the person with the direct knowledge that can make the necessary decision. And the truth is that lower level employees are regularly incorrect in their knowledge, especially if it's a topic that does not come up frequently. There are high rates of turnover at entry level, so they are often not there long enough to have much experience with particular issues. Not blaming anyone, but that's the way it is. I can't imagine getting through the many years of dealing with our health insurance situation and school district without having that skill. Frankly, I learned to do it because women and their complaints do get ignored in a way that, for example, my husband's do not. It's worse in person, especially if you are a soft spoken and generally unintimidating presence.

I did not see the original Karen meme (and I take it that there were videos, which I have not seen.) Lord knows that there are plenty of difficult people out there, and I do get that. But the way I see the "Karen" term tossed around now in, say, comment sections is about getting women in the age group in which the name was popular, 40- and 50-something women, to shut up. And that's not okay.

Of course, we should all consider whether we are being reasonable and kind in any given situation. If you are one who is worried about such things, chances are that your behavior is just fine.

Edited July 25, 2020 by GoodGrief

[Katy]

I don't know that much about the meme.

Years ago, right after I got married I noted on Facebook how astonishingly different I was treated on customer service matters vs my husband.  I didn't even need to have him talk to the people, all I had to say was, "My husband won't like that," on the phone and all of the sudden they bent over backwards to change whatever they had just stated was the official policy.  Friends from all over the country said they'd had the same experience.  

[Moonhawk]

Hmm.

So I'm coming at this from the perspective of an avid meme'r and someone who is not "of a certain age" and who has never been called a Karen. I also ask to speak to the manager, but have never had a confrontation in a retail setting. I have worked as a waitress and have dealt with a share of difficult customers. I have also dealt with a share of difficult customer service reps. 

If someone acts rudely, entitled, belittles service and retail workers, and will selfishly argue and make other people potentially get into legal trouble just to prove their point, why exactly are we concerned about hurting their feelings with a relatively mild name? They are going to be called something one way or another, because their behavior should be denounced. 

Giving those who deal with this-type-of-person a quick descriptor and psychological barrier to help them with the drain of dealing with this-type-of-person. I have no problem with that. 

Having a quickhand way to call someone out on their legitimately being this-type-of-person can be helpful -- perhaps not to this-type-of-person, but to others around them that have to deal with it and also as a community indicator that this behavior is not accepted.  I have no problem with that.

I agree that it is used as a thought-terminating cliche. I'm not advocating for that. That, regardless of who its used on, isn't what I'm saying is ok. Again, that is going to happen regardless of what term is used. We need to address that action separately, not the individual in-vogue words that are being used to do it. 

I have heard men referred to as male-Karens. They have also been known as Dicks historically, I think Todd is what is trying to become the Karen equivalent in memedom but I haven't confirmed that. And yes, Chad is a uber-male jock type, not a Karen, and I've recently seen the Chad meme slowly change to be used positively, "What a Chad" after someone does something commendable.

[KungFuPanda]

Sometimes the “Karen” is a problem and sometimes the kid behind the counter just has issues taking personal responsibility and labels the customer when she calls him on his crap. 

[BlsdMama]

13 hours ago, kbutton said:

It just gets worse and worse in healthcare, IMO (and my DH works in healthcare!). 

Getting ADHD meds for three people each month is an exercise in crazy. For a while it was taking us about 8 hours of effort every.single.month. One of the times I went to check on meds, I was told that they couldn't tell me when the meds were going to be ready because they didn't want to pull an OARS report. I think it was our second visit to the pharmacist, the second day in a row, for that batch of meds. They gave my DH ZERO trouble when I called him and told him to come in and talk with them. It's infuriating. He does it all now, and it's so much smoother. It shouldn't be that way. 

Don't get me started on CVS Caremark mail order...the people on the phone know what they are doing, but that never translates to the right meds in the mail. I bet they hate their jobs!

OT
We have two - all I can say is Costco?! I call the doc, leave a message requesting the refill.  I get a text from Costco.  I pick up my meds.  Can you use a different pharmacy?

There is some truth the customer service is just not all roses these days.  A few weeks ago we had to wait to slide our card (he had to push a key) because our cashier was returning a text.  He was also texting thus could not greet or say thank you.  I rolled my eyes and asked DH, "Seriously?" and haven't been back, then lectured my own children when I got home, LOL.

My kids work at CFA.  40-60 year old women are the worst they assure me.

OTOH, I asked to speak to a manager (via telephone) at Lowes a month ago after I got an email thanking me for picking up my order (what order?!) and then a charge on my credit card for the same order.... (I've asked the question maybe 3-4 times in my whole life?  About the time she was sure I'd "shoplifted" (oh wait, she said leaving with my paint without paying for it because of an online order) then doubled down when I proved I had it on the My Lowe's by asking if didn't I pick up two? I admit I lost my ... ahem, composure.  Sometimes labels are handed out unfairly - perhaps I am a Karen and perhaps she is lovely and not a peach - a term we use here.

[HS Mom in NC]

14 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Sometimes the “Karen” is a problem and sometimes the kid behind the counter just has issues taking personal responsibility and labels the customer when she calls him on his crap. 

I agree with that.  The parodies and the original intent of the meme are about extreme, unnecessary, inappropriate behavior.  It's tempting for people with no sense of personal responsibility or respect for accountability in general to want to throw the label at anyone and everyone who stand up for themselves and for standards of decency and  professionalism. 

[LucyStoner]

16 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I agree with that.  The parodies and the original intent of the meme are about extreme, unnecessary, inappropriate behavior.  It's tempting for people with no sense of personal responsibility or respect for accountability in general to want to throw the label at anyone and everyone who stand up for themselves and for standards of decency and  professionalism. 

People keep talking about the “original intent” of the meme.  The origins of this meme are on Reddit from a man whose user name referenced his ex-wife’s first name Karen.  He was upset that he’d lost custody.  His rants spawned a subreddit called /f**kyoukaren.  Reddit isn’t a space that is, uh, free from sexism.  

[katilac]

6 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

People keep talking about the “original intent” of the meme.  The origins of this meme are on Reddit from a man whose user name referenced his ex-wife’s first name Karen.  He was upset that he’d lost custody.  His rants spawned a subreddit called /f**kyoukaren.  Reddit isn’t a space that is, uh, free from sexism.  

How did it go from that to let me speak to the manager? 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The only time that I have difficulty minding my own business is with unleashed dogs. I have told people to actually obey the law and leash their dogs. They often don’t take it well. 
 

But (and here’s my excuse) I had a very good dog “ruined” by him getting attacked two different times by an unleashed dog while he was properly leashed. Afterwards he became fearful and aggressive with approaching dogs. So now I don’t want to go by even a seemingly old unleashed dog on the street. I can’t predict possible behavior. (None of my dogs have ever had problems at dog parks where all dogs were unleashed but there is a different dynamic when one is leashed and the other dog isn’t. ). 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle
Typo

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

How did it go from that to let me speak to the manager? 

It evolved into that in the subreddit.  If you visit that subreddit it’s use is wider reaching than call the manager.  It’s had multiple facets.  

The first Karen meme I recall seeing was innocuous and had nothing to do with speaking to the manager.  It was about a baby shower gift and a dorky pun.  

Later on it got folded into the trend of naming white women who were recorded making stupid and racially motivated calls to the police...BBQ Becky, Cornerstore Caroline, Permit Patty.  Eventually all those names gave way to all of these women being Karen.  

There have been many instances of white men calling the police or taking it on themselves to harass Black people just living their lives.  The man who demanded id from a woman who was using her neighborhood pool, the man who followed a woman in a nice car and insisted that she couldn’t own the car.  We don’t call those guys Pool Paul or Follow Frank.   We don’t have one name that we call all such men.  
 

And no, dick is not equivalent because it’s not a meme and it’s something people say almost exclusively about bad behavior from a specific person.  Now, in some circles and spaces, all middle aged white women are Karen merely by existing and heaven help her if she wants the lunch she ordered or speaks up about basically anything.  
 

I don’t think Karen is a slur, I think it’s a lazy stereotype that reflects the misogyny that permeates our culture.  It’s ok, and even fun, to rip on women.  Especially on women who are not young.  

Edited July 25, 2020 by LucyStoner