Oh, Bill - question re: neck tech

[sheryl]

Bill,  I hope it's not to late to start Sbiloh on neck tech.  It just arrived today!  Prior to ordering, I researched the neck tech online and learned how to measure the neck for fitting. etc.  I'm asking you to clarify instead of looking online again for the proper fitting.  The collar iis 24" and too big for my big puppy girl so I know we;ll take a few links out.  

Position:  I believe the collar rests snugly behind the ears and down around the jaw line.  Is that correct?
Fit:   How to do this?  How does the collar rest in position to determine how many links to take out?  IOW, when I put the collar on her just now, it's too big.  Do I pull the neck tight?  I'm having a hard time articulating this.  The collar is big and "loose" because she hasn't pulled to tighten.  Do I measure in a pull or non-pull position?  And, how many fingers should you be able to slip through?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Spy Car!

[Spy Car]

52 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill,  I hope it's not to late to start Sbiloh on neck tech.  It just arrived today!  Prior to ordering, I researched the neck tech online and learned how to measure the neck for fitting. etc.  I'm asking you to clarify instead of looking online again for the proper fitting.  The collar iis 24" and too big for my big puppy girl so I know we;ll take a few links out.  

Position:  I believe the collar rests snugly behind the ears and down around the jaw line.  Is that correct?
Fit:   How to do this?  How does the collar rest in position to determine how many links to take out?  IOW, when I put the collar on her just now, it's too big.  Do I pull the neck tight?  I'm having a hard time articulating this.  The collar is big and "loose" because she hasn't pulled to tighten.  Do I measure in a pull or non-pull position?  And, how many fingers should you be able to slip through?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Spy Car!

Not too late.

As to "position" mine tends to ideally ride a little higher on the neck than a standard collar would. Being "high" is rather less critical than the dangerous "choke chains" from the bad old days which need to be right on the jawline to reduce the potential for damaging a windpipe, but best to keep any martingale-type collar away from a windpipe as possible. One should never "yank" on this or any similar collar (in any case).

I tried the fit just now. I can get my whole (flat) hand in under the collar with a little room to spare. It should not be tight. Nor super loose. You don't want the "teeth" to bite when she's heeling nicely, but it should be set so she'll begin to feel pressure if she steps out of line. Again, never yank.

Set it so it is not tight (definitely not) but not really loose either. If the alternative are slightly tight or slightly loose, go for slightly loose.

Also try to get the chain/martingale closure down at the bottom, so there are no teeth closing on the windpipe. OK? And did I mention, don't yank?

The idea is that she will feel pressure that is self applied if she steps out of line and then she will self-correct which releases pressure. This as opposed to you making "corrections."

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

Also, never leave this collar on your dog when you are not actively training. Should never be worn unsupervised.

Bill

[sheryl]

Bill,

Thanks!  As always. 

Wait -------  if the ring is on the bottom under her "chin"/snout then how does one attach a leash to it? I'm confused on this.  Do you have a link?  Just finished watching a movie and  at 11 pm off to bed.  I'll try to find a link and submit to you here tomorrow.

Never yank!  Right!
Good tip: only use when in training

Talk tomorrow or next time.

Sheryl

[Spy Car]

11 hours ago, sheryl said:

Bill,

Thanks!  As always. 

Wait -------  if the ring is on the bottom under her "chin"/snout then how does one attach a leash to it? I'm confused on this.  Do you have a link?  Just finished watching a movie and  at 11 pm off to bed.  I'll try to find a link and submit to you here tomorrow.

Never yank!  Right!
Good tip: only use when in training

Talk tomorrow or next time.

Sheryl

Yes the ring goes on the bottom. The snaffle on your leash attaches to the ring (down below).

If you are walking Shilo with her on your left (in typical heeling-fashion) it is possible the collar might shift slightly clockwise (as viewed looking at the dog from in front) but it should be a miniscule degree. 

Walk with a loose lead (meaning the leash should have little slack, that is only taken up if she steps out of position).

Bill

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

Edited July 19, 2020 by Spy Car

[sheryl]

8 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Bill,

Thanks for pic of Spy Car 2!  LOL!
Really now I'm not getting this.  Here - the leash attaches to the ring.  BUT, the ring (circular and flat on one side) will actually sit (when in use) on the top/back of Shiloh's head.  The small 1" or less Sprenger "name plate" will rest under her chin.  

I took a pic and will upload.

[sheryl]

Bill, here ya go!

[sheryl]

 

[sheryl]

Bill, look at minute 2:35 -2:45.

It shows a replica of what you see on Shiloh in my pic.  🙂

[sheryl]

And, dh took off 2 links.  One on either side of Sprenger name plate. I can't tell if it's still too big.  He took off 2 more (1 more on both sides making for a total of 4 - 2 on each side) but now it's too small and I can't slip over her head.  

Do you slip over head OR release caribiner to open collar to put on?
I still don't know sizing.  Arrrgh.  
Put one back on?  Then 1 side would have 1 less and the other side would have 2 less (from nameplate).

HELP!

[Spy Car]

47 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill, here ya go!

The collar is upside down.

Bill

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

And, dh took off 2 links.  One on either side of Sprenger name plate. I can't tell if it's still too big.  He took off 2 more (1 more on both sides making for a total of 4 - 2 on each side) but now it's too small and I can't slip over her head.  

Do you slip over head OR release caribiner to open collar to put on?
I still don't know sizing.  Arrrgh.  
Put one back on?  Then 1 side would have 1 less and the other side would have 2 less (from nameplate).

HELP!

They will not slip over the head (if properly fitted). You need to open it up and thread the chain. Every time.

Bill

Edited July 20, 2020 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

44 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill, look at minute 2:35 -2:45.

It shows a replica of what you see on Shiloh in my pic.  🙂

Someone on the internet is wrong.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Hey Sheryl, to make sure the person on the internet that's "wrong" isn't *me*, I contacted three retailers that specialize in the product and--so far--have three different responses:

1) Goes on top, as you have done

2) Doesn't matter, whatever one is more comfortable with (egad!)

3) Goes down below, as I've advocated

*Sigh*

To help clear the matter I've emailed Herm Sprenger in Germany. I'll update when I get a response.

My feeling is that I do not want any "teeth" that can impact on the tender (and highly vulnerable) underside of a dog's neck.

Countless numbers of dogs were injured in the bad old days by people being trained to yank on choke chains, causing damage to injuries to their trachea and esophagus. Many dogs had what was euphemistically called "choke chain cough." Horrifying.

Having the snaffle down below seems like the safer way to go, but I'm now uncertain about how Sprenger intends for these to be fixed.

Bill 

[sheryl]

Hey Bill!

It's now Tuesday eve 9 pm.  A while back I emailed HS Germany and did not get a reply.  During our (you and I) conversation on this topic/thread, I emailed HS/Germany again but no answer #2.  Today, Tuesday, I called HS America and left a message with one of the sales reps - mind you, this woman services Africa, Europe and so very many countries.  Look online to get the exact list.  I asked her to call back or someone she felt would be a good candidate for answering a question.

Sure enough around 8 pm a "Chris" (HS/America) called me.  He shared his background (I think former military ?, former police definitely and dog trainer).  He said the rings and carabiner go on top of the head. 

I explained to him that as a consumer I looked everywhere for tutorials on HS website OR You Tube, etc that would CLEARLY SHOW/DEMONSTRATE where to put the rings (under chin or on top).  He said he's working on getting all of that up and running.  Additionally, he said they (HS) hired a professional to make tons of tutorials regarding all of this.  If you'd like link, lmk and I'll send it to you!

[Pen]

On 7/19/2020 at 5:23 PM, sheryl said:

Bill, here ya go!

 

One thing to be aware of is that if you hold it taught like this you may be giving a “correction” even though your dog is sitting nicely.  I know it’s just for demo, but letting it be loose unless she is pulling out of heel position is probably best.

[sheryl]

LOL!  Right, but loose would not have been identifiable enough and hence why I picked it up to separate the components as best I could.  Good thing as I sent to my HS America contact!  🙂  

I really need to "quick study" to proper way to use this collar.  Will watch some of the videos. 

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Hey Bill!

It's now Tuesday eve 9 pm.  A while back I emailed HS Germany and did not get a reply.  During our (you and I) conversation on this topic/thread, I emailed HS/Germany again but no answer #2.  Today, Tuesday, I called HS America and left a message with one of the sales reps - mind you, this woman services Africa, Europe and so very many countries.  Look online to get the exact list.  I asked her to call back or someone she felt would be a good candidate for answering a question.

Sure enough around 8 pm a "Chris" (HS/America) called me.  He shared his background (I think former military ?, former police definitely and dog trainer).  He said the rings and carabiner go on top of the head. 

I explained to him that as a consumer I looked everywhere for tutorials on HS website OR You Tube, etc that would CLEARLY SHOW/DEMONSTRATE where to put the rings (under chin or on top).  He said he's working on getting all of that up and running.  Additionally, he said they (HS) hired a professional to make tons of tutorials regarding all of this.  If you'd like link, lmk and I'll send it to you!

HS/America were the ones that told me the same thing. Snaffle on top.

I asked, "wouldn't that pull the teeth into the soft/vulnerable under part of the neck?"

The response was, "It won't hurt anything?

I'm like "are you sure?"

I dunno Sheryl. Germany is not responding.

And I think back to when I was a kid (11 or 12), got my first bird-dog, and signed up to take the most serious obedience classes I could find way-back before the internet existed. The "experts" then had us using choke chains (which were ubiquitous). And said we should do abrupt about faces as we were heeling, and, if the dog was slow to come around, we should give the leash a strong yank. FFS.

Even as a wet-behind-the-ears novice dog owner I thought this method was nutzo. Crazy dangerous. And without raising attention or causing a confrontation, I made sure to ignore their instruction. 

In the passage of time, my trepidations about yanking on choke chains prove to be correct. Unfortunately. So many dogs damaged.

So we each need to decide what makes sense for ourselves. Prong style collars, when pulled, exert force by closing on the opposite side from the ring where the leash is attached. I want those teeth to close (very so gently) on the back of a dog's neck, and not on their throats (no matter how high the collar is placed).

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

27 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

One thing to be aware of is that if you hold it taught like this you may be giving a “correction” even though your dog is sitting nicely.  I know it’s just for demo, but letting it be loose unless she is pulling out of heel position is probably best.

Correctamundo.

Always leave the leash slack.

A dog that gets out of place will take up the slack and self-correct. These are good tools if used properly, but can be dangerous if misused. And tension on a lead will read as a "correction," just as Pen has rightly stated.

Bill

 

[ktgrok]

On 7/19/2020 at 9:11 PM, Spy Car said:

The collar is upside down.

Bill

Nope, she's right, it goes with the leash ring on top. 

The pressure of the teeth are not going to damage anything because it 1. shouldn't tighten enough to do that and 2. the pressure is distributed all around the neck evenly. 

To properly be able to guide the dog it goes on top...although honestly a bit off center generally, toward where the human is. 

[ktgrok]

And yes, pressure on = out of place, pressure off (loose) = in place.

If you have pressure on the collar when the dog is in the right spot, they have no way to tell the difference between the right spot and the wrong spot. I don't ahve them self correct, I correct them, but it is a small motion that uses very little pressure. Timing is WAY more important than force - the idea is to communicate clearly what you want and don't want. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Ktgrok

[sheryl]

See, I get where you (Bill) are coming from and that was my concern too.  If the rings are on top it will pinch the throat.  I dunno either.

Katie, I "guess" the teeth are not too long on a lab coat. And, that's true,  the pinching is evenly dispersed. Shiloh's coat is thick but she is a lab and labs have short hair.  But Bill your Vizsla has a short-haired coat, correct?

[Spy Car]

28 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Nope, she's right, it goes with the leash ring on top. 

The pressure of the teeth are not going to damage anything because it 1. shouldn't tighten enough to do that and 2. the pressure is distributed all around the neck evenly. 

To properly be able to guide the dog it goes on top...although honestly a bit off center generally, toward where the human is. 

I prefer having the teeth not tightening on the vulnerable underside of the neck.

There is one fifth (or so) of the tech tech collar where there are no "teeth." It make sense to me to put the teeth-free portion under the dog's neck, rather than placing the central position of the teeth in that position where they would exert the most force.

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

A labrador has more than enough loose skin on the neck that the teeth will grab the skin, not the musculature or trachea or thyroid or such. 

[Spy Car]

26 minutes ago, sheryl said:

See, I get where you (Bill) are coming from and that was my concern too.  If the rings are on top it will pinch the throat.  I dunno either.

Katie, I "guess" the teeth are not too long on a lab coat. And, that's true,  the pinching is evenly dispersed. Shiloh's coat is thick but she is a lab and labs have short hair.  But Bill your Vizsla has a short-haired coat, correct?

The force will always be greatest oppose of the closure. I want that to happen on the back, not underneath. 

A Lab's coat would certainly offer more protection than a Vizsla's would. V's have almost none. They have a single coat (no undercoat).

I'd suggest trying an experiment on yourself. Place the collar on your leg )or appropriate appendage, attack a leash, and pull. When do you feel it? Not on the portion that's free of teeth.

Bill

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

A labrador has more than enough loose skin on the neck that the teeth will grab the skin, not the musculature or trachea or thyroid or such. 

I would not take that bet.

Bill

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The force will always be greatest oppose of the closure. I want that to happen on the back, not underneath. 

A Lab's coat would certainly offer more protection than a Vizsla's would. V's have almost none. They have a single coat (no undercoat).

I'd suggest trying an experiment on yourself. Place the collar on your leg )or appropriate appendage, attack a leash, and pull. When do you feel it? Not on the portion that's free of teeth.

Bill

I always demonstrated on my self to new students. It is difficult if not impossible to have the proper angle for correction with the leash under the chin.

One of the big reasons for using a prong collar is that it distributes the pressure around the neck, so you don't get a significant pressure point at the throat, or anywhere. If you are, you are using too much pressure. 

And honestly, after the first day or so, you shouldn't need many corrections anyway. If the dog is leaning into the collar, you are not using it properly. (not you, Bill, the OP...I know you don't let the dog lean into it)

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I always demonstrated on my self to new students. It is difficult if not impossible to have the proper angle for correction with the leash under the chin.

One of the big reasons for using a prong collar is that it distributes the pressure around the neck, so you don't get a significant pressure point at the throat, or anywhere. If you are, you are using too much pressure. 

And honestly, after the first day or so, you shouldn't need many corrections anyway. If the dog is leaning into the collar, you are not using it properly. (not you, Bill, the OP...I know you don't let the dog lean into it)

If Sheryl tries the experiment on herself--as I suggest--she will find that where there are teeth to dig in it is a very different story in terms of pressure than where there are no teeth. It is easy to prove for one's self.

I've used this model of collar myself (although it never got that much use) so I know for a fact that works very well with the snaffle down below. And in that position there are no teeth to dig into the most vulnerable parts of a dog's throat.

Bill

 

[sheryl]

Let me sum up here for convenience instead of individual replies. 

I agree with both of you, Bill and Katie.  I fully understand your point, Bill, about not wanting links to rest on throat as the pull mechanism/"O" ring on top would create the "pinch" effect in the opposite direction of "rings", placing pinch on neck.

However, SH seems to offer well-designed/engineered products and certainly have "history" under their belts.  So, I agree with Katie as well when she mentioned that the pinch is distributed around most of the neck.  It's not heavy on one side or the other.  Also, you mentioned Katie that due to the very nature of leash attachment and position to collar that their will probably be a slight off-set of collar "center" with HS nameplate to fall a little to walker side.  Still, the teeth would rest in front.  

IDK!  I first need to learn how to use this correctly.  Once I've mastered that then I would think it would be safe to have rings on top. 

[ktgrok]

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

If Sheryl tries the experiment on herself--as I suggest--she will find that where there are teeth to dig in it is a very different story in terms of pressure than where there are no teeth. It is easy to prove for one's self.

I've used this model of collar myself (although it never got that much use) so I know for a fact that works very well with the snaffle down below. And in that position there are no teeth to dig into the most vulnerable parts of a dog's throat.

Bill

 

The whole point is that the pressure is pinching  the skin, not digging directly into the neck. A lateral squeezing/movement of the teeth. The entire collar tightens, but to a limited amount if properly fitted. But the teeth movement is a lateral one, or should be. And again, Labs have a lot of heavy, thick, well furred skin in that area, practically a dewlap like an iguana. 

That said, a properly healing dog puts zero pressure on it. The damage I've seen on dogs is almost always from flat buckle collars. 

[Spy Car]

39 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The whole point is that the pressure is pinching  the skin, not digging directly into the neck. A lateral squeezing/movement of the teeth. The entire collar tightens, but to a limited amount if properly fitted. But the teeth movement is a lateral one, or should be. And again, Labs have a lot of heavy, thick, well furred skin in that area, practically a dewlap like an iguana. 

That said, a properly healing dog puts zero pressure on it. The damage I've seen on dogs is almost always from flat buckle collars. 

The collar tightens, however, the pressure points happen where there are teeth (and not where there are not teeth) and the most pressure occurs directly opposite where the leash attaches to the chain-ring assembly (where there are no teeth). Anyone who owns one of these collars (like Sheryl) can prove this to herself by fastening it to an appropriately sized body part and giving a pull.

Try the test Sheryl and see which portion of the collar your want around you throat were we in a Planet of the Apes-type situation. It is a no-brainer from my perspective. 

Because I've demonstrated that the teeth-free portion is more "gentle" to my own satisfaction, I personally would not place the portion of the collar that "bites" the most on the portion of a dog's throat that is most vulnerable. The entire collar does not tighten equally. The portion that lacks teeth pinches less. 

Further, I'd put no great confidence in a Lab's thick coat to offer complete protection to its throat, when it is a very simple matter to turn the collar around.

I know for a fact that that neck-tech works very well with the snaffle down below. I advocate using it in the fashion that is most free of risking injury, everything else being equal.

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

Let me sum up here for convenience instead of individual replies. 

I agree with both of you, Bill and Katie.  I fully understand your point, Bill, about not wanting links to rest on throat as the pull mechanism/"O" ring on top would create the "pinch" effect in the opposite direction of "rings", placing pinch on neck.

However, SH seems to offer well-designed/engineered products and certainly have "history" under their belts.  So, I agree with Katie as well when she mentioned that the pinch is distributed around most of the neck.  It's not heavy on one side or the other.  Also, you mentioned Katie that due to the very nature of leash attachment and position to collar that their will probably be a slight off-set of collar "center" with HS nameplate to fall a little to walker side.  Still, the teeth would rest in front.  

IDK!  I first need to learn how to use this correctly.  Once I've mastered that then I would think it would be safe to have rings on top. 

Sorry. HS also has a long history of selling choke chains (that they still sell) and these collars have maimed and injured countless dogs over generations.

The quality of their gear is undeniably top-notch, what one would expect from stereotypical German engineering, but it is a mistake to think beautifully executed and well-made items can not cause harm. 

Please do the suggested experiment on yourself (husband?) before you make a final decision as to how to place this collar.

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

 

Bill

Edited July 22, 2020 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

I dont' really care with way OP does it, lol, but with it underneath like that I'd be concerned it doesn't release quickly and fully. Gravity holds it in the open/loose position when the leash is toward the top (about the 2 O'clock position in real life I'd bet) so that it quickly releases. At the bottom that is not going to work as well I'd think. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I dont' really care with way OP does it, lol, but with it underneath like that I'd be concerned it doesn't release quickly and fully. Gravity holds it in the open/loose position when the leash is toward the top (about the 2 O'clock position in real life I'd bet) so that it quickly releases. At the bottom that is not going to work as well I'd think. 

Your concerns about the collar not releasing quickly and fully with the ring/chain assembly underneath--while understandable concerns--are not born out in actual use.

The rings and chains that form the martingale are quite hefty (made of significant bits of steel) and I can assure you they work very well with gravity to quickly and fully release pressure. Heavy chain. Heavy rings. Heavy snapple. Not to mention whatever weight the leash and it's snaffle contribute to the pull of gravity.

I actually do care how Sheryl uses her collar on Shiloh, as I was the one who recommended  the Neck-Tech in the first instance, and I'd like to see this device used in the fashion that is least likely to cause harm.

Bill

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

Your concerns about the collar not releasing quickly and fully with the ring/chain assembly underneath--while understandable concerns--are not born out in actual use.

The rings and chains that form the martingale are quite hefty (made of significant bits of steel) and I can assure you they work very well with gravity to quickly and fully release pressure. Heavy chain. Heavy rings. Heavy snapple. Not to mention whatever weight the leash and it's snaffle contribute to the pull of gravity.

I actually do care how Sheryl uses her collar on Shiloh, as I was the one who recommended  the Neck-Tech in the first instance, and I'd like to see this device used in the fashion that is least likely to cause harm.

Bill

But that's my point, wouldn't the weight of the leash/snap/chain be pulling downward, closing the collar?

[sheryl]

OK, I'm coming back here tomorrow, Thursday.  I lost internet for awhile and now off to bed.   

I have a few to read.  We're getting a new HVAC system tomorrow and so I'll be hibernating where I can stay cool  (window a/c) and catching up on the thread!

Talk tomorrow!    🙂 

[sheryl]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:10 PM, Ktgrok said:

The whole point is that the pressure is pinching  the skin, not digging directly into the neck. A lateral squeezing/movement of the teeth. The entire collar tightens, but to a limited amount if properly fitted. But the teeth movement is a lateral one, or should be. And again, Labs have a lot of heavy, thick, well furred skin in that area, practically a dewlap like an iguana. 

That said, a properly healing dog puts zero pressure on it. The damage I've seen on dogs is almost always from flat buckle collars. 

Katie,  are you saying then that teeth constrict/relax aka pinch/loosen east and west (link "side" to side) - that would be lateral??

[sheryl]

On 7/22/2020 at 2:04 PM, Spy Car said:

The collar tightens, however, the pressure points happen where there are teeth (and not where there are not teeth) and the most pressure occurs directly opposite where the leash attaches to the chain-ring assembly (where there are no teeth). Anyone who owns one of these collars (like Sheryl) can prove this to herself by fastening it to an appropriately sized body part and giving a pull.

Try the test Sheryl and see which portion of the collar your want around you throat were we in a Planet of the Apes-type situation. It is a no-brainer from my perspective. 

Because I've demonstrated that the teeth-free portion is more "gentle" to my own satisfaction, I personally would not place the portion of the collar that "bites" the most on the portion of a dog's throat that is most vulnerable. The entire collar does not tighten equally. The portion that lacks teeth pinches less. 

Further, I'd put no great confidence in a Lab's thick coat to offer complete protection to its throat, when it is a very simple matter to turn the collar around.

I know for a fact that that neck-tech works very well with the snaffle down below. I advocate using it in the fashion that is most free of risking injury, everything else being equal.

Bill

 

 

Bill, thanks for that exercise.   LOL!  I did put it on my neck but it was too big. I'll choose another body part and assess.  I tried on my upper leg last night and you both have cases.  Yes, it does "pinch" opposite rings and rings don't pinch b/c they are the "driving" force.

However, it did seem to be uniform pressure on the entire collar, as Katie said.

I'll try this little experiment a few more times.  Bill, have you done this recently?  If not, could you today using a different body part?  Just curious.

[sheryl]

19 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Your concerns about the collar not releasing quickly and fully with the ring/chain assembly underneath--while understandable concerns--are not born out in actual use.

The rings and chains that form the martingale are quite hefty (made of significant bits of steel) and I can assure you they work very well with gravity to quickly and fully release pressure. Heavy chain. Heavy rings. Heavy snapple. Not to mention whatever weight the leash and it's snaffle contribute to the pull of gravity.

I actually do care how Sheryl uses her collar on Shiloh, as I was the one who recommended  the Neck-Tech in the first instance, and I'd like to see this device used in the fashion that is least likely to cause harm.

Bill

Yes, from one of your previous replies, I'll have dh try it.  That is good b/c I can fit it on him and practice, gently.  LOL!

Bill, I appreciate you recommending this to me a while back (was it the "original" Shiloh post (Aug/Sept)? or more recent but I am looking forward to resolving this and put it to use.

 

[Spy Car]

49 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, from one of your previous replies, I'll have dh try it.  That is good b/c I can fit it on him and practice, gently.  LOL!

Bill, I appreciate you recommending this to me a while back (was it the "original" Shiloh post (Aug/Sept)? or more recent but I am looking forward to resolving this and put it to use.

 

A couple of things, @Ktgrok as a result of your expressed concerns about the collar potentially releasing more slowly with the snaffle below--concerns I dismissed--I decided to do a little more testing yesterday (even before Sheryl asked). I tried it first around my calf and then around my bicep. Those tests showed you did have a point, the collar does fall fully open more easily with the attachment above. The assembly does open with the attachment below, but it isn't as smooth as above.

That result made me ponder a re-think of my position, but the teeth issue made me try one further test--one I was loathe to do--and that was to test this collar on my own neck. While the chain did release faster more efficiently when pulled from above--even though I was being ultra-gentle and doing this on myself--the force on my windpipe was too much. I gagged. From below, the sense of having a little pressure from the teeth abated less, but it did not place nearly the same pressure on delicate neck parts.

I did hear from Germany this morning. They said it is designed to be attached above. That way places a lot of pressure on the throat.

I'm not sure the take-away. I'm losing confidence in the safety of this tool. And I'm starting to regret having recommended it, especially knowing they are not cheap.  When I have a moment I will do some testing on my dog, to double check quality of the release from above. Having the teeth in a position where they can close on the neck scares me. 

Bill

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

@sheryl @Ktgrok

I just tried the collar on my Vizsla (underside method only).

To gauge the pressure on his throat I placed my left hand (palm away) flat against his throat. Then I gently pulled with the other hand. There was no sense of pressure on my hand. The chain assembly bridged the gap w/o closing on my hand (or the dog's throat). That was a relief. It tried something similar way back when, but my confidence has been shaken a little.

When I pulled the teeth did what they are supposed to do, and gave a "correction." I was satisfied that the collar opened properly when I released. 

Based on the amount of force I felt on my neck when the teeth rested on the throat, I would never use this collar in that fashion. Since that's how HS designed this to be used, I have to withdraw my recommendation for its use. There is too much risk to its use when used as directed for me to feel comfortable doing it that way.

I do not think attaching this chain from above is safe. I'm very sorry sheryl.

Bill

 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

A couple of things, @Ktgrok as a result of your expressed concerns about the collar potentially releasing more slowly with the snaffle below--concerns I dismissed--I decided to do a little more testing yesterday (even before Sheryl asked). AHA, we're thinking alike here!   I tried it first around my calf and then around my bicep. Those tests showed you did have a point, the collar does fall fully open more easily with the attachment above. The assembly does open with the attachment below, but it isn't as smooth as above.  I guess the argument here is thus -  it doesn't open "as" smooth (in comparison) but it still opens?  Reasonably?

That result made me ponder a re-think of my position, but the teeth issue made me try one further test--one I was loathe to do--and that was to test this collar on my own neck. While the chain did release faster more efficiently when pulled from above--even though I was being ultra-gentle and doing this on myself--the force on my windpipe was too much. I gagged. From below, the sense of having a little pressure from the teeth abated less, but it did not place nearly the same pressure on delicate neck parts.

I did hear from Germany this morning. They said it is designed to be attached above. That way places a lot of pressure on the throat.

I'm not sure the take-away. I'm losing confidence in the safety of this tool. And I'm starting to regret having recommended it, especially knowing they are not cheap.  When I have a moment I will do some testing on my dog, to double check quality of the release from above. Having the teeth in a position where they can close on the neck scares me. 

Bill

 

 

 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

@sheryl @Ktgrok

I just tried the collar on my Vizsla (underside method only).

To gauge the pressure on his throat I placed my left hand (palm away) flat against his throat. Then I gently pulled with the other hand. There was no sense of pressure on my hand. The chain assembly bridged the gap w/o closing on my hand (or the dog's throat). That was a relief. It tried something similar way back when, but my confidence has been shaken a little.

When I pulled the teeth did what they are supposed to do, and gave a "correction." I was satisfied that the collar opened properly when I released. 

Based on the amount of force I felt on my neck when the teeth rested on the throat, I would never use this collar in that fashion. Since that's how HS designed this to be used, I have to withdraw my recommendation for its use. There is too much risk to its use when used as directed for me to feel comfortable doing it that way.

I do not think attaching this chain from above is safe. I'm very sorry sheryl.

Bill

 

But, you still continue to use yours rings down for correction and he's (boy, right?)still learned?  And, he's not been hurt!  So, they say there is more than one way to skin a cat (we had a cat and I say that with love)  so maybe "down" still works even if that was not the intended use.   ???

[Spy Car]

30 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I guess the argument here is thus -  it doesn't open "as" smooth (in comparison) but it still opens?  Reasonably?

Yes. I never gave it a second thought. If how smoothly the collar opened was the only consideration here, then attaching it from above would be the winning option. Try it yourself.

But no way in hell that I'd have the prime force (and the teeth) positioned in such a way that they close up on a dog's throat. 

Bill

[Spy Car]

20 minutes ago, sheryl said:

But, you still continue to use yours rings down for correction and he's (boy, right?)still learned?  And, he's not been hurt!  So, they say there is more than one way to skin a cat (we had a cat and I say that with love)  so maybe "down" still works even if that was not the intended use.   ???

I did all the formal training with our Vizsla. I rarely used this collar. It was more for insurance when he was young and going to places like the local off-leash dog-friendly mountain trail with my wife and son (without me) because he could get away with murder with these two and at the approach trail-head he needed to be leashed and under control despite other dogs being around that he was desperate to play with.

Having this collar is not necessary for dog training. But "sans" dog training it can be highly valuable for controlling a strong and excitable dog that has a mind of its own.

When training do use all the commands and rewards that reenforce good behaviors.

Bill

[Pen]

Does neck tech have rubber tips available like regular prong? If so the part that’s near throat could have rubber protectors.  For that matter possible a soft sleeve of sponge or neoprene or similar could go over the throat area points. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

Does neck tech have rubber tips available like regular prong? If so the part that’s near throat could have rubber protectors.  For that matter possible a soft sleeve of sponge or neoprene or similar could go over the throat area points. 

I don't think so, nor do I think it would matter. The issue is not one of sharpness or pointiness, but rather in the amount of force.

Rubber tips would not be protective in my estimation.

Bill

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I don't think so, nor do I think it would matter. The issue is not one of sharpness or pointiness, but rather in the amount of force.

Rubber tips would not be protective in my estimation.

Bill

 

If the whole sharp part by throat gets covered, is it worse than if dog lunges while on leash in a fabric or leather collar?