s/o Question re: Shiloh (Katie, others)

[sheryl]

Shiloh was born 6/17/19.  In 6 days she'll be 13 months.

I have not seen evidence of a "heat".  We adopted our other 2 labs at the same 8-10 week age and we remember the heat cycle with them. But, we have not seen any "heat" from her.  Shouldn't she have had one by now?  We're waiting to spay her until "after" her first heat.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Pen]

Variable. Some dogs do as earl at 6 months, others don’t till around 2 years. 

[sheryl]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

Variable. Some dogs do as earl at 6 months, others don’t till around 2 years. 

Seriously, Pen?!?!  I thought the "usual" standard was "around" 1 year.  So, we have to be extra watchful until we has her heat.  The we will spay.  Well, thanks for the tip!  Our other labs went in to heat much earlier than 2 years.   I wish she would complete the heat so we can have her spayed.

[Pen]

39 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Seriously, Pen?!?!  I thought the "usual" standard was "around" 1 year.  So, we have to be extra watchful until we has her heat.  The we will spay.  Well, thanks for the tip!  Our other labs went in to heat much earlier than 2 years.   I wish she would complete the heat so we can have her spayed.

 

On average that’s probably so “around a year”.

 

She’s plenty old enough to be spayed now and it may reduce mammary tumors to do so before first heat

 

 

[sheryl]

16 minutes ago, peacelovehomeschooling said:

I have a question.  Why wait until after her first heat to have her spayed?   One of ours is a girl and we had her spayed prior to her ever going into heat.  I am just curious, no other reason for asking.

See below.

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

On average that’s probably so “around a year”.

 

She’s plenty old enough to be spayed now and it may reduce mammary tumors to do so before first heat

 

 

Pen,  I didn't know that.  I know the breeder told us to wait until after her first heat or two to "fill her out/broaden her stature" (physiologically).  I didn't know her this lab that that is recommended for English labs so they don't look scrawny.  Shiloh is so broad.  She's a tank.  I can't imagine having my girl dog any more broad. LOL!

[sheryl]

Pen, how long does a first time heat last for a lab?

[ktgrok]

Usuallly by 18 months. Also, she will be physically mature around then, so even if doesn't have  a heat cycle, sometime around 2 plan on having her spayed. There are also "silent" heat cycles, to add complexity, lol. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Ktgrok

[Pen]

31 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Pen, how long does a first time heat last for a lab?

 

Idk - haven’t had an unspayed female dog in heat rsince I was a teenager.  

[Selkie]

Our vet highly recommends spaying before the first heat because it greatly reduces the chance of the dog ever developing mammary cancer.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

See below.

Pen,  I didn't know that.  I know the breeder told us to wait until after her first heat or two to "fill her out/broaden her stature" (physiologically).  I didn't know her this lab that that is recommended for English labs so they don't look scrawny.  Shiloh is so broad.  She's a tank.  I can't imagine having my girl dog any more broad. LOL!

Interesting, I've never heard that. Have you asked your vet about that, and whether it is better to wait or spay sooner?

Our English lab was spayed before her first heat and she is very solid and sturdy. Nothing scrawny about her!🙂

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Interesting, I've never heard that. Have you asked your vet about that, and whether it is better to wait or spay sooner?

Our English lab was spayed before her first heat and she is very solid and sturdy. Nothing scrawny about her!🙂

They have in recent years found that there are pros and cons to spaying early versus later. But definitely not later than after first heat. 

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Usuallly by 18 months. Also, she will be physically mature around then, so even if doesn't have  a heat cycle, sometime around 2 plan on having her spayed. There are also "silent" heat cycles, to add complexity, lol. 

OK, well you (or someone) and Selkie both say vets say to spay early to reduce risk of mammary issues.  Then, I guess "to broaden" is our breeder's only interest in waiting for spay.  ?????  I texted our breeder.  I'd rather get her in before heat then.   This is assuming we didn't miss it. LOL

48 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Idk - haven’t had an unspayed female dog in heat rsince I was a teenager.  

Got it.

2 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Our vet highly recommends spaying before the first heat because it greatly reduces the chance of the dog ever developing mammary cancer.

See above - Katie

[Selkie]

Sheryl, I would talk to your vet and see what he/she says about the breeder's advice.

The best time to spay and neuter was recently a topic on a Facebook group I'm in - it's a group where members can ask questions and vets answer them. The consensus among the vets was that it is most beneficial for females to get spayed before the first heat to reduce cancer risk. They agreed it was okay to wait longer to neuter males, but felt strongly that females should be spayed early. That's what my vet says, too.

[sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Interesting, I've never heard that. Have you asked your vet about that, and whether it is better to wait or spay sooner?

Our English lab was spayed before her first heat and she is very solid and sturdy. Nothing scrawny about her!🙂

When talking to breeders and the canine judges they have affirmed that it's best to wait to spay until after first heat.  BUT, that must be if you're going to show a dog. We're not.  Our first lab (English) was spayed after her heat and she passed away too soon.  She actually came from championship quality (have papers) but we didn't pay that much to adopt her.  

I'm asking you all -

Is physical appearance/broad the only reason to wait?   Shiloh is already broad.  Y'all are saying it's a health risk to wait too long.  I'm assuming there are no health risks associated with spaying too early - before first heat?

[sheryl]

Just now, Selkie said:

Sheryl, I would talk to your vet and see what he/she says about the breeder's advice.

The best time to spay and neuter was recently a topic on a Facebook group I'm in - it's a group where members can ask questions and vets answer them. The consensus among the vets was that it is most beneficial for females to get spayed before the first heat to reduce cancer risk. They agreed it was okay to wait longer to neuter males, but felt strongly that females should be spayed early. That's what my vet says, too.

OK.  We agreed with the breeder to wait until after her first spay.   I texted breeder a  bit ago.   I'm going to take Shiloh in sooner rather than later based on what I learned here.'

Thanks!!

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, sheryl said:

When talking to breeders and the canine judges they have affirmed that it's best to wait to spay until after first heat.  BUT, that must be if you're going to show a dog. We're not.  Our first lab (English) was spayed after her heat and she passed away too soon.  She actually came from championship quality (have papers) but we didn't pay that much to adopt her.  

I'm asking you all -

Is physical appearance/broad the only reason to wait?   Shiloh is already broad.  Y'all are saying it's a health risk to wait too long.  I'm assuming there are no health risks associated with spaying too early - before first heat?

 

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/three-reasons-to-reconsider-spayneuter/

[sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/three-reasons-to-reconsider-spayneuter/

I read the article.  Now it's depressing.  Shiloh is 13 months next Friday.  I just need to get her in asap.  MUCH APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

Interesting, I've never heard that. Have you asked your vet about that, and whether it is better to wait or spay sooner?

Our English lab was spayed before her first heat and she is very solid and sturdy. Nothing scrawny about her!🙂

Bill who used to be around here used to be very passionate about it.  There’s some thoughts that spaying too early reduces hormones or something preventing the dog from developing properly.  I thought it was male dogs though.

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Bill who used to be around here used to be very passionate about it.  There’s some thoughts that spaying too early reduces hormones or something preventing the dog from developing properly.  I thought it was male dogs though.

Yes, that was my understanding in terms of a dog "filling out" but others have pointed out above that spaying after heat presents other issues.  I think Bill is still active here, no?  I thought I saw that hes was recently.

[Spy Car]

I'm still here.

The trade-offs of spaying female dogs (or not) and the timing is a complex situation and is one where I don't have a settled opinion on the matter. 

There are some advantages to spay (in addition to population control) of which reducing the odds of Pyometra and mammary cancers are paramount. But there are a host of serious downsides as well. Pro-spay/neuter websites are notoriously bad at being honest about the medical risks and common side-effects (like rampant "spay-incontenence") with spayed females.

Most dog people I know who raise female dogs--I do not--settle for the compromise of spaying after the first heat, as Sheryl's breeder suggested. The idea is not simply one of "esthetics," but rather to allow a bitch to reach full maturity and to complete normal bone plate closures (which avoids the disproportionate bone ratios seen in dogs with early gonadectomies). Sex hormones regulate bone plate closures in normal circumstances, if those are removed early normal bone lengths (and bone length ratios) are replaced with unnatural proportions. 

Allowing a dog to have normal musculoskeletal is a huge deal, as the disproportionate growth caused by early spay/neuter results in serious risks of CCR tears and other serious joint issues that too often cripple dogs as they reach their senior years.

Unlike the reasonable debate of pros/cons when it comes to spay, the practice of neutering males is very nearly 100% negative from a medical standpoint and the health of a dog.

The big three studies available at the time I purchased my last dog (about 6 years ago) were the Golden Retriever study, The Vizsla study (referenced above), and (IMS) a Rottweiler study. Other studies were said to be coming--because the downsides of spay/neuter (and especially neuter) have been shaking the veterinary profession to its core.

Vets don't seek to do harm to animals and the ethics of routine spay/neuter has raised very serious concerns as demonstrated by the best veterinary research studies. So maybe there are fresh studies that I have not seen?

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were raising a female, but I don't think I'd spay prior to a first heat.

Bill

Edited July 12, 2020 by Spy Car

[sheryl]

15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I'm still here.

The trade-offs of spaying female dogs (or not) and the timing is a complex situation and is one where I don't have a settled opinion on the matter. 

There are some advantages to spay (in addition to population control) of which reducing the odds of Pyometra and mammary cancers are paramount. But there are a host of serious downsides as well. Pro-spay/neuter websites are notoriously bad at being honest about the medical risks and common side-effects (like rampant "spay-incontenence") with spayed females.

Most dog people I know who raise female dogs--I do not--settle for the compromise of spaying after the first heat, as Sheryl's breeder suggested. The idea is not simply one of "esthetics," but rather to allow a bitch to reach full maturity and to complete normal bone plate closures (which avoids the disproportionate bone ratios seen in dogs with early gonadectomies). Sex hormones regulate bone plate closures in normal circumstances, if those are removed early normal bone lengths (and bone length ratios) are replaced with unnatural proportions. 

Allowing a dog to have normal musculoskeletal is a huge deal, as the disproportionate growth caused by early spay/neuter results in serious risks of CCR tears and other serious joint issues that too often cripple dogs as they reach their senior years.

Unlike the reasonable debate of pros/cons when it comes to spay, the practice of neutering males is very nearly 100% negative from a medical standpoint and the health of a dog.

The big three studies available at the time I purchased my last dog (about 6 years ago) were the Golden Retriever study, The Vizsla study (referenced above), and (IMS) a Rottweiler study. Other studies were said to be coming--because the downsides of spay/neuter (and especially neuther) have been shaking the veterinary profession to its core.

Vets don't seek to do harm to animals and the ethics of routine spay/neuter has raised very serious concerns as demonstrated by the best veterinary research studies. So maybe there are fresh studies that I have not seen?

I'm not sure what I'd do if I were raising a female, but I don't think I'd spay prior to a first heat.

Bill

Bill,  this is what I've heard but, your academic prose worded it so much better!   😉

DH and I didn't question when we spayed our first 2 dogs/labs and, no doubt, the suggestion was made by vet/staff motivated (perhaps) from a desire to reduce unplanned litters.  I've learned a lot though from this post and not only can spay occur too early but too late as well and both scenarios present possible consequences to the pup.  I hope not!  I hope that because she comes from good stock that will help balance out the issue of her spay in relation to her heat.  Shoot, I just want to the best for her!  Thanks for your input, Bill!

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill,  this is what I've heard but, your academic prose worded it so much better!   😉

DH and I didn't question when we spayed our first 2 dogs/labs and, no doubt, the suggestion was made by vet/staff motivated (perhaps) from a desire to reduce unplanned litters.  I've learned a lot though from this post and not only can spay occur too early but too late as well and both scenarios present possible consequences to the pup.  I hope not!  I hope that because she comes from good stock that will help balance out the issue of her spay in relation to her heat.  Shoot, I just want to the best for her!  Thanks for your input, Bill!

Double check me, but my memory is that the main issue of "waiting too late" involves an increase increase in risk of mammary cancers if the spay is done after 2-2.5 years, meaning the same risk as unspayed dogs. So you have some time to deliberate the decision.

There is also the theoretical option of doing a ovary-sparing spay (OSS) that preserves the sex hormones. These were once very rare (few vets were trained to do them from what I understand), but that seems to be changing. OSS evidently takes more surgical skill than the relatively crude spay surgeries that are typically done today. Can you find a vet who can do this expertly? What would it cost? I dunno.

Bill      

[sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Double check me, but my memory is that the main issue of "waiting too late" involves an increase increase in risk of mammary cancers if the spay is done after 2-2.5 years, meaning the same risk as unspayed dogs. So you have some time to deliberate the decision.

There is also the theoretical option of doing a ovary-sparing spay (OSS) that preserves the sex hormones. These were once very rare (few vets were trained to do them from what I understand), but that seems to be changing. OSS evidently takes more surgical skill than the relatively crude spay surgeries that are typically done today. Can you find a vet who can do this expertly? What would it cost? I dunno.

Bill      

OK, Bill, I'll research and find out.   The OSS procedure is new to me.  Will call Shiloh's vet in a day or two to inquire about both spays.   Maybe this is going down a "TMI" path but, since we've not seen evidence of heat, and let's say we don't in the future (pre-spay), is there blood work or other to determine if she's been in heat in the past?  Or, just "assume" that close to her 2nd birthday she would have had a heat cycle (which was what Katie was saying).

[Spy Car]

32 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK, Bill, I'll research and find out.   The OSS procedure is new to me.  Will call Shiloh's vet in a day or two to inquire about both spays.   Maybe this is going down a "TMI" path but, since we've not seen evidence of heat, and let's say we don't in the future (pre-spay), is there blood work or other to determine if she's been in heat in the past?  Or, just "assume" that close to her 2nd birthday she would have had a heat cycle (which was what Katie was saying).

My hunch is that most vets are not trained on this procedure and you would likely need to seek a skilled specialist.

Precision is required in this procedure. It is not like the slash and grab of a normal spay. All of the uterus needs to be removed (unlike a total spay where vets can be sloppy with no ill effects) because the ovaries will still stimulate any remaining uterus and that can lead to what's called "“stump pyometra.”

Note: This is not an area of expertise on my part, I'm just aware it exists and it is something I'd further explore if I had a female dog one day (which is unlikely).

Bill

[sheryl]

6 hours ago, Spy Car said:

My hunch is that most vets are not trained on this procedure and you would likely need to seek a skilled specialist.

Precision is required in this procedure. It is not like the slash and grab of a normal spay. All of the uterus needs to be removed (unlike a total spay where vets can be sloppy with no ill effects) because the ovaries will still stimulate any remaining uterus and that can lead to what's called "“stump pyometra.”

Note: This is not an area of expertise on my part, I'm just aware it exists and it is something I'd further explore if I had a female dog one day (which is unlikely).

Bill

Well, I appreciate your advice, Bill.  Will follow up this week and inquire about this procedure.  And, is this the name of the procedure?  ovary-sparing spay (OSS)      I'm curious where you first learned of this. I'm questioning why I haven't heard of it before your mention.

I appreciate it very much!

[ktgrok]

On 7/11/2020 at 6:20 PM, sheryl said:

OK, well you (or someone) and Selkie both say vets say to spay early to reduce risk of mammary issues.  Then, I guess "to broaden" is our breeder's only interest in waiting for spay.  ?????  I texted our breeder.  I'd rather get her in before heat then.   This is assuming we didn't miss it. LOL

Got it.

See above - Katie

So, every heat cycle increases the liklihood of mammary cancer. Doing it before any heat is the lowest mammary cancer risk. Doing it after the first heat is higher than that, but still pretty low from what I remember. (don't quote me, but that's my recollection). Each heat thereafter increases the risk. This is why for years and years we were trained to tell people to spay before first heat. 

Then research came out saying there were actually some risks to this, including  incontinence and anxiety/aggression. 

Which led to a middle of the road approach of spay after first heat cycle. That gives you still a lower risk of mammary cancer, eliminates the risk of pyometra, and lowers the risk of incontinence and behavior issues. 

[sheryl]

9 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

So, every heat cycle increases the liklihood of mammary cancer. Doing it before any heat is the lowest mammary cancer risk. Doing it after the first heat is higher than that, but still pretty low from what I remember. (don't quote me, but that's my recollection). Each heat thereafter increases the risk. This is why for years and years we were trained to tell people to spay before first heat. 

Then research came out saying there were actually some risks to this, including  incontinence and anxiety/aggression. 

Which led to a middle of the road approach of spay after first heat cycle. That gives you still a lower risk of mammary cancer, eliminates the risk of pyometra, and lowers the risk of incontinence and behavior issues. 

Thanks, Katie.  I didn't miss it with our other 2 but am concerned we may miss Shiloh's first heat.  Could she already and we've missed it?  Is it still yet to come?  Is there a way for the vet to tell?  

How long should her heat last?  1 week?  3 weeks?  Other?   I don't remember.  

If we don't see her heat then, we will have her spayed by the end of this year at 18 months or beginning or next before her 2nd birthday June 2021.  You suggested this.  Thanks!

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Thanks, Katie.  I didn't miss it with our other 2 but am concerned we may miss Shiloh's first heat.  Could she already and we've missed it?  Is it still yet to come?  Is there a way for the vet to tell?  

How long should her heat last?  1 week?  3 weeks?  Other?   I don't remember.  

If we don't see her heat then, we will have her spayed by the end of this year at 18 months or beginning or next before her 2nd birthday June 2021.  You suggested this.  Thanks!

Off the top of my head, about 3 weeks if you count the early part, then the bleeding part, then the clear discharge afterward. 

I should say a silent heat with a big dog is pretty unlikely. You should notice some physical changes to her vulva, her mammary tissue, etc. 

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Off the top of my head, about 3 weeks if you count the early part, then the bleeding part, then the clear discharge afterward. 

I should say a silent heat with a big dog is pretty unlikely. You should notice some physical changes to her vulva, her mammary tissue, etc. 

Got it, thanks!  Well, we'll be on the lookout. LOL!  She's 13 months this week so it really should be anytime.  As Bill said. we're have several months before the necessary time of spaying her.  Surely she'll go to heat once before then!  Appreciate it, Katie!

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Thanks for this thread sheryl. I've been having these discussions with our vet as well trying to sort through. Our last dog spayed ended up with spay related incontinence which has me much less on the auto-spay at 6 months like I was in the past. 

I am also curious if @Spy Car or @Ktgrok know- if you breed a bitch once or twice who then delivers and nurses puppies, does that have any associated or correlated impact on reducing mammary malignancies as it does with women? 

Yes,  it's been an eye-opener to me.  Will do what seems to be common ground (Katie/Bill's replies) and wait until after first heat and before her 2nd birthday which is next June.  I've also been curious about your question and will read their reply.

What have you decided to do then with spaying?

[teachermom2834]

No information to share but this is so interesting. I am a first time dog owner with a puppy everyone told us to get spayed by 6 months. When I asked the vet, she said they wait until after the first heat now. Given where I live is not on the cutting edge of anything ever, I thought it was my vet's info that was outdated. Interesting.

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes,  it's been an eye-opener to me.  Will do what seems to be common ground (Katie/Bill's replies) and wait until after first heat and before her 2nd birthday which is next June.  I've also been curious about your question and will read their reply.

What have you decided to do then with spaying?

 

 

One more thing to keep in mind might be whether or not there are intact male dogs in your neighborhood, and how you will manage Shiloh in heat, especially if you still have no fenced yard.   

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Thanks for this thread sheryl. I've been having these discussions with our vet as well trying to sort through. Our last dog spayed ended up with spay related incontinence which has me much less on the auto-spay at 6 months like I was in the past. 

I am also curious if @Spy Car or @Ktgrok know- if you breed a bitch once or twice who then delivers and nurses puppies, does that have any associated or correlated impact on reducing mammary malignancies as it does with women? 

You know, I don't know! I mean, I do know that it isn't a fix...the ones we saw the most with mammary tumors were breeding bitches that had been bred many many times. So probably not? 

I will say, that if you are the a great dog owner, do your research, breed a few times, then spay, and then keep your hands on the dog often mammary tumors can be caught early and removed. What sucked were the ones where no one noticed until the entire chain of mammary glands was involved, etc. 

Oh, and the mammary tumor thing is why we do not recomend an ovary sparing spay. It is the ovaries that drive that process. (i also have no idea how a male in heat would react to a female with ovaries giving her the hormones of a heat cycle but no uterus). 

Oh, and FYI...there is a reason the word bitch is used as a swear word - dogs in heat are often VERY grumpy. Especially around other dogs. Dogs who would never bite or get into a dog fight will do so when in heat. Others get whiney and whimper and stick to their owner like glue. I mean, just picture PMS you know?

OH, and other FYI - they are most fertile AFTER the bleeding stops! I've more than once spotted a dog in obvious heat out in public who had owners that thought the dog was safe to take out now because the bleeding had stopped, not realizing they were bringing out a VERY fertile dog. 

And you probably know this, but a female in heat doesn't have to like a male dog to mate with him. I had a neighbor tell me her intact dogs would never make puppies because they "don't like each other like that". Needless to say, there were puppies, lol. Even humans who don't like each other that much have been known to mate, lol. 

And a male dog will dig under a fence, jump a fence, and even do the deed THROUGH a chain link fence. So when she is fertile you cannot let her outside, even in a fenced yard, unattended. Sorry. If you can't assure that will be the case, have her spayed now. 

49 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

No information to share but this is so interesting. I am a first time dog owner with a puppy everyone told us to get spayed by 6 months. When I asked the vet, she said they wait until after the first heat now. Given where I live is not on the cutting edge of anything ever, I thought it was my vet's info that was outdated. Interesting.

Well...way back before the "before 6 months" advice, the advice was "after the first heat". So your vet might just be so old fashioned they are current again 🙂

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

One more thing to keep in mind might be whether or not there are intact male dogs in your neighborhood, and how you will manage Shiloh in heat, especially if you still have no fenced yard.   

Thanks for the reminder.  It's a sore subject.  Yes, we are mindful of that and is only socializing with females.  She socialized with a few males when she was "very" young but we're ever watchful the closer to gets to heat which is day by day.

[sheryl]

25 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I haven’t decided completely yet. One of the things we are weighing is if we might want to breed her. A hunting trainer that’s seen her thinks she’s pretty incredible on her drive- he said most dogs don’t have this level of drive and retrieve like she does right out of the box, so if I end up being able to hunt title her, we might breed her a litter to get one of the offspring. There’s a high demand for field labs out here so we shouldn’t have an issue finding buyers for one litter. But while dh is super convinced, I am not that I am not too old to deal with a litter of puppies! Much less high energy lab puppies! 
 

Another factor is it looks like her eyes might be heterochromatic- one is green, one is blue. They still could change to both the same color but we don’t know yet. If they stay two different colors I don’t know yet if that would be a strike against her on breeding. 
 

Either way, I’m going to hold off I think until she’s at least one. I think we will know better where we stand at that point on her athletic level to see if she’s worthy of breeding. Everything here is well fenced and our other dogs are all fixed so besides not being able to go anywhere those few weeks I think we could deal with a heat cycle or two. I hope. 🙂 

Generally speaking field labs are high energy as you said.  Have you bred before?  And, how old is this puppy?  I want to start a puppy picture thread but can't spend the time on that right now.   We've had English and Field.  Our 2nd was field.  Our first was and Shiloh is English.  

[sheryl]

26 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

You know, I don't know! I mean, I do know that it isn't a fix...the ones we saw the most with mammary tumors were breeding bitches that had been bred many many times. So probably not? 

I will say, that if you are the a great dog owner, do your research, breed a few times, then spay, and then keep your hands on the dog often mammary tumors can be caught early and removed. What sucked were the ones where no one noticed until the entire chain of mammary glands was involved, etc. 
Thanks for this info.  Very helpful!
 

Oh, and the mammary tumor thing is why we do not recomend an ovary sparing spay. It is the ovaries that drive that process. (i also have no idea how a male in heat would react to a female with ovaries giving her the hormones of a heat cycle but no uterus). 
Thanks for this too!  

 

Oh, and FYI...there is a reason the word bitch is used as a swear word - dogs in heat are often VERY grumpy. Especially around other dogs. Dogs who would never bite or get into a dog fight will do so when in heat. Others get whiney and whimper and stick to their owner like glue. I mean, just picture PMS you know?

OH, and other FYI - they are most fertile AFTER the bleeding stops! I've more than once spotted a dog in obvious heat out in public who had owners that thought the dog was safe to take out now because the bleeding had stopped, not realizing they were bringing out a VERY fertile dog. 
How long does the "after" heat/fertile phase last? I did not know this!

 

And you probably know this, but a female in heat doesn't have to like a male dog to mate with him. I had a neighbor tell me her intact dogs would never make puppies because they "don't like each other like that". Needless to say, there were puppies, lol. Even humans who don't like each other that much have been known to mate, lol. 
AGREE!

And a male dog will dig under a fence, jump a fence, and even do the deed THROUGH a chain link fence. So when she is fertile you cannot let her outside, even in a fenced yard, unattended. Sorry. If you can't assure that will be the case, have her spayed now. 
ABSOLUTELY!  She only goes out with us to go on a walk (leashed) or front yard.  We had to use a 30 ft. lead for training.  Have to get her to NOT run off.

Well...way back before the "before 6 months" advice, the advice was "after the first heat". So your vet might just be so old fashioned they are current again 🙂

 

[ktgrok]

This might help. https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/breeding-for-pet-owners-estrus-and-mating-in-dogs

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I haven’t decided completely yet. One of the things we are weighing is if we might want to breed her. A hunting trainer that’s seen her thinks she’s pretty incredible on her drive- he said most dogs don’t have this level of drive and retrieve like she does right out of the box, so if I end up being able to hunt title her, we might breed her a litter to get one of the offspring. There’s a high demand for field labs out here so we shouldn’t have an issue finding buyers for one litter. But while dh is super convinced, I am not that I am not too old to deal with a litter of puppies! Much less high energy lab puppies! 
 

Another factor is it looks like her eyes might be heterochromatic- one is green, one is blue. They still could change to both the same color but we don’t know yet. If they stay two different colors I don’t know yet if that would be a strike against her on breeding. 
 

Either way, I’m going to hold off I think until she’s at least one. I think we will know better where we stand at that point on her athletic level to see if she’s worthy of breeding. Everything here is well fenced and our other dogs are all fixed so besides not being able to go anywhere those few weeks I think we could deal with a heat cycle or two. I hope. 🙂 

 

For a hunting dog I don’t think eyes would probably be significant if they work properly .

I think ideas that it’s associated with other abnormalities like deafness are generally not supported.  Though blue eyes can be light sensitive which could perhaps be a problem.

 

Personally I think Heterochromia eyes are cool!

We have neighbors who have bred a Lab - Chesapeake mix deliberately as hunters and another set of breeders in area who breed pure Labrador field dog hunters.  Physical ability, good hips, heart, and behavior seem to be far more important than looks. 

[Pen]

She’s darling ❤️!

 

Those eyes would not worry me, personally. I assume she seems to see well.

And if she were bred with someone who looked like my black furred dark brown eyed dog the lighter eyes and chocolate might be masked by the dominant dark colors anyway.

(eta— that’s actually not necessarily true—his mother may have been chocolate in which case, mated with a chocolate it’s possible that if he has genes for chocolate himself it could emerge in a puppy.) 

 

9 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

It is hard to get her to stand still, but here’s one that shows her eyes from 3 weeks ago. They look exactly the same still.   
 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Pen

[Jaybee]

30 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

It is hard to get her to stand still, but here’s one that shows her eyes from 3 weeks ago. They look exactly the same still.   
 

She's adorable!

 

[Spy Car]

49 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

You know, I don't know! I mean, I do know that it isn't a fix...the ones we saw the most with mammary tumors were breeding bitches that had been bred many many times. So probably not? 

I will say, that if you are the a great dog owner, do your research, breed a few times, then spay, and then keep your hands on the dog often mammary tumors can be caught early and removed. What sucked were the ones where no one noticed until the entire chain of mammary glands was involved, etc. 

Oh, and the mammary tumor thing is why we do not recomend an ovary sparing spay. It is the ovaries that drive that process. (i also have no idea how a male in heat would react to a female with ovaries giving her the hormones of a heat cycle but no uterus). 

Oh, and FYI...there is a reason the word bitch is used as a swear word - dogs in heat are often VERY grumpy. Especially around other dogs. Dogs who would never bite or get into a dog fight will do so when in heat. Others get whiney and whimper and stick to their owner like glue. I mean, just picture PMS you know?

OH, and other FYI - they are most fertile AFTER the bleeding stops! I've more than once spotted a dog in obvious heat out in public who had owners that thought the dog was safe to take out now because the bleeding had stopped, not realizing they were bringing out a VERY fertile dog. 

And you probably know this, but a female in heat doesn't have to like a male dog to mate with him. I had a neighbor tell me her intact dogs would never make puppies because they "don't like each other like that". Needless to say, there were puppies, lol. Even humans who don't like each other that much have been known to mate, lol. 

And a male dog will dig under a fence, jump a fence, and even do the deed THROUGH a chain link fence. So when she is fertile you cannot let her outside, even in a fenced yard, unattended. Sorry. If you can't assure that will be the case, have her spayed now. 

Well...way back before the "before 6 months" advice, the advice was "after the first heat". So your vet might just be so old fashioned they are current again 🙂

My understanding (non-expert) is that males would react to a bitch in heat that lacked a uterus (due to an OSS) just as they would to any female dog in heat.

And you are correct that an OSS would not be protective against mammary cancers. That is a significant downside.

Bill

[sheryl]

20 hours ago, Spy Car said:

My understanding (non-expert) is that males would react to a bitch in heat that lacked a uterus (due to an OSS) just as they would to any female dog in heat.

And you are correct that an OSS would not be protective against mammary cancers. That is a significant downside.

Bill

Right! Well, I need to learn to research more and not get so sucked in to one's opinion as being the better one.  I'm taking what y'all have said (pros and cons to early or post heat spay) and it seems the lesser of two evils is to have her go through that first heat and no later than around her 2nd birthday.  As you mentioned, we have some time to do this.  Now waiting on heat. LOL!

Also, I called our vet yesterday afternoon and I was disappointed to hear the receptionist say the vets there recommend spaying at 6 months!  Maybe it's time to find a new vet!
Thanks for your insight.   On another note, we've ordered and will be getting the neck tech next week or so.  

[sheryl]

7 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Obviously I'm not a vet- but I can see why from a larger public standpoint they do this. If the dog is spayed young, before a heat, there is no risk of the dog reproducing. "Unwanted animal prevention" is a huge public policy type of line, or at least animal welfare type policy. By recommending it early, sure there may be some downsides for the dogs, but weighed against the number of unwanted puppies it theoretically prevents, it would be justified by most vets, as a lot of dog owners are viewed as not being responsible enough to deal with a dog in heat. 

It's a looking at the whole population vs. the individual dog well-being, if that makes sense?  It just reminded me of general public health policy- I don't think animal welfare "general recommendations" are much different. It's catered to the masses. Lot easier to get someone in to spay a 3-6 month old dog than a 2 year old where they might put it off indefinitely......

I don't think it would put me off of my vet unless my vet wasn't open to discussing the later option. If you are thoughtfully approaching them on the topic, they should listen and not just party-line you, but I would expect the receptionist to just spout the party-line. 

I get what you're saying and I agree they are considering reducing unwanted/unplanned for litters (that I think I mentioned above or somewhere) but some of us (dog owners) do take it seriously.  Shiloh is on a leash in public.  Even to go potty outside in our yard.  Several months back (way too early for her to be fertile) I was doing training off-leash in front yard.  Haven't done that in a while because the closer to a year she became the more likely she is to be in heat.  Not going through that as much as I'd like for her to breed one litter.

Again, the receptionist gave "vet recommendations" for their clinic.  I'm not impressed with that answer.  I'll just look for another vet if I still feel so inclined.  Shiloh has her annuals due in October.  I'll ask then and make a decision.

 

[Pen]

 

You not only need to be able to control Shiloh, but be prepared for a group of males (who might not be sweet Compliant Labradors) surrounding you.  Even if she is leashed.

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Obviously I'm not a vet- but I can see why from a larger public standpoint they do this. If the dog is spayed young, before a heat, there is no risk of the dog reproducing. "Unwanted animal prevention" is a huge public policy type of line, or at least animal welfare type policy. By recommending it early, sure there may be some downsides for the dogs, but weighed against the number of unwanted puppies it theoretically prevents, it would be justified by most vets, as a lot of dog owners are viewed as not being responsible enough to deal with a dog in heat. 

I

Yup. When you have dogs that are unwanted constantly being dropped at your doorstep, abandoned, your focus is different. 

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

I get what you're saying and I agree they are considering reducing unwanted/unplanned for litters (that I think I mentioned above or somewhere) but some of us (dog owners) do take it seriously.  Shiloh is on a leash in public.  Even to go potty outside in our yard. 

 

Yeah, but see.....people lie. NO ONE walks in and says, "I'm very irresponsible", lol. And even seasoned breeders have oops litters - it only takes a minute to have them start something you can't stop. 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

You not only need to be able to control Shiloh, but be prepared for a group of males (who might not be sweet Compliant Labradors) surrounding you.  Even if she is leashed.

 

 

Exactly. It isn't just controlling YOUR dog, it's keeping the other dogs away. There is not much stopping a male dog off a leash from running up and mounting her before you can stop him. You have to be super vigilant, and many are not. 

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Right! Well, I need to learn to research more and not get so sucked in to one's opinion as being the better one.  I'm taking what y'all have said (pros and cons to early or post heat spay) and it seems the lesser of two evils is to have her go through that first heat and no later than around her 2nd birthday.  As you mentioned, we have some time to do this.  Now waiting on heat. LOL!

Also, I called our vet yesterday afternoon and I was disappointed to hear the receptionist say the vets there recommend spaying at 6 months!  Maybe it's time to find a new vet!
Thanks for your insight.   On another note, we've ordered and will be getting the neck tech next week or so.  

The other day when I was looking around for additional spay information for you I ran into a page (that I wish I'd copied verbatim) but to paraphrase it said something about prioritizing the general societal needs of reducing unwanted dog pregnancies as the premier goal, which implied placing the health needs of individual dogs in a secondary or tertiary level of priority. I'd say bullocks to that when one is dealing with a responsible dog owner and his or her pet.

While there may be complexities involved in the spay issue (there clearly are) a recommendation to spay a female at 6 months w/o a discussion of risks/benefits would shake my confidence in a vet.

Our vet--who has breed knowledge with Vizslas and who actually owns my dog's grandsire--didn't push neutering when I told her I was planning on keeping my male Vizsla intact and she admitted that the evidence shows it is a health positive.

I would look further into how late you can go with acceptable risks of mammary cancer. 

Removing sex hormone organs is no small thing. Some of the downsides (aggregated from https://www.parsemus.org/projects/ovary-sparing-spay/) include: increased obesity, urinary incontinence, urinary calculi, diabetes mellitus, hypothyroidism, hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament rupture, aggressive and fearful behavior, cognitive dysfunction syndrome, adenocarcinoma and transitional cell adenocarcinoma, mast cell cancer, lymphoma, brain tumors, and bone cancer.

Breed specifically, Labs tend to get obese and are prone to CCR tears and serious joint issues (in part as a result of getting fat). I'm not sure about their cancer risks. I'd check.

The rate of mammary tumors in unspayed bitches is fairly high. Around 25% (IMS). About half those tumors are benign. It is also relatively easy (compared with other cancers) to palpate the dog and spot them early and early removal (from my limited understanding) is generally successful. No one wants a loved dog to experience cancer. A spay that removes the ovaries is fairly protective of mammary cancer, but the other risks--including other, harder to detect, cancers--are high.

I don't know how any informed owner would not feel they were in a conundrum. As I've said from the outset, I don't know what I'd do in this situation. The issue is more complex than the advocates for the current push for early routine spay/neuter would have one believe. I'm sorry if the information makes your decision a more tortured one.  But best to make an informed choice.

Bill 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

IMS they make "chastity belts" for bitches. I have a recollection of a serious dog trainer who had one on her dog some years back.

Not my area of expertise, but...

Bill 

 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

The rate of mammary tumors in spayed bitches is fairly high. Around 25% (IMS).

 

That seems way off to me. In 20 years in vet clinics I saw less than half a dozen cases of mammary tumors in intact dogs, and all had been spayed very late. That 25% of spayed dogs get mammary tumors ...there is just no way. 

[ktgrok]

Ok, yeah, 25% is about what it is in intact females, not spayed females. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4436381/

. A study focusing on the incidence of canine mammary tumors found tumors in approximately 0.05% of females that were spayed before their first heat cycle. This figure increased to 8% or 26% when the animals were spayed after their first or second heat, respectively. However, if the animals were spayed later, the risk of developing malignant tumors (MN) was the same as for an intact bitch [2]

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

That seems way off to me. In 20 years in vet clinics I saw less than half a dozen cases of mammary tumors in intact dogs, and all had been spayed very late. That 25% of spayed dogs get mammary tumors ...there is just no way. 

I only know what I read when it comes to the rate of mammary tumors in intact female dogs. 

From the American Academy of Veterinary Surgeons: 

https://www.acvs.org/small-animal/mammary-tumors#:~:text=More than a quarter of,benign and 50% are malignant.

More than a quarter of unspayed female dogs will develop a mammary tumor during their lifetime. The risk is much lower for spayed female dogs, male dogs, and cats of either gender. In female dogs, 50% of mammary tumors are benign and 50% are malignant...However, few of the malignant mammary tumors are fatal. 

These are roughly the same statistics I've seen elsewhere.

Bill