Do I pull and fully homeschool?

[nrbeckking]

My son is 15 and headed into 11th grade. He will have to do distance learning next year because his sister is high risk. As I have been working with him since schools closed I realized he is at the 5th grade level in math (he passed Algebra 1 and Geometry) and cannot write a paragraph much less an essay. He technically has 3 years before he will be 18 and at the same age as college peers should he go to college. Do I pull him and back him up and solidify his math and writing or do I allow him to do the distance learning and just supplement and shore up these issues? He currently has every elective he would need for graduation through his school. He needs 2 foreign language credits and 2 of each core course to be done at the school meaning 10 classes. I may be able to convince his counselor to drop all the electives he has signed up for during the distance learning and have them put study hall on his schedule but I don't know how that will look versus having a mom transcript. We are in Texas if that makes a difference.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would pull and fully homeschool.  I'm in Texas.  Nothing wrong with a Mom Transcript.  My homeschooled dd is currently attending university.  Her writing skills were so good that her history prof used her paper as an example.  (patting myself on the back)  

Best of luck!

 

[Runningmom80]

I have a similar issue, although with a much younger kid. My 10 year old DD has been in PS for 1.5 years and after having her do a few placement tests, it's clear she is behind, and was even before distance learning. I'm pulling her and catching her up this year. At this point I don't even know if she'll go back, she's 2E and obviously not having her needs met.

In our experience, distance learning was exhausting busywork and there was not really an opportunity for supplementing. I'm sure your situation is way different and if that could work it's definitely an option. I'm kind of disillusioned with public school in general right now, and feel like it's better for all of us if I just take control and have her focus on what I know will work. 

So, that's prob not helpful because my dd is so young, but I thought I'd mention it to let you know that there are probably a lot of people who are going through this as well. My oldest is going into 9th grade and was supposed to go to B&M school for high school and that's not happening either. It's a weird time! 

[kristin0713]

I would absolutely pull him and remediate his math and writing.  You an accomplish so much more with him than he would learn doing distance learning through the public school.  

[klmama]

Pulling him for remediation sounds like a great idea, since the public school isn't helping him.  Remediation doesn't necessarily mean you should change his grade level, though.  Even generally compliant teens might throw a rebellious fit at suddenly having a second sophomore year.  I encourage you to discuss options with him before formally making that change.  

Is it possible that he has unrecognized learning disabilities?  It may be a good idea to set up private evaluations now while you start working with him.  If he makes good progress, you could cancel.  If he does have learning disabilities, though, you'd want him to have documentation before he heads to college.  

[EKS]

8 hours ago, nrbeckking said:

I realized he is at the 5th grade level in math (he passed Algebra 1 and Geometry) and cannot write a paragraph much less an essay.

Just so you know, most high school graduates are in this boat.  I'd also wager that a good number of college graduates are as well.

I would only pull him if *he* wants to homeschool.  There is nothing worse than trying to homeschool an unwilling teen.

As for remediation, you're going to want to find resources that lend themselves to rapid progression and be prepared to switch resources several times during the year.  

[katilac]

49 minutes ago, EKS said:

Just so you know, most high school graduates are in this boat.  I'd also wager that a good number of college graduates are as well.

There is nothing worse than trying to homeschool an unwilling teen.

I would not at all say "most" high school graduates are at a 5th-grade level in math. "Many" have a poor math foundation, I would definitely agree with that. 

I do 100% agree that there is nothing worse than trying to homeschool an unwilling teen, lol. If he welcomes the idea of homeschooling or is at least willing to try it, awesome. You might compare what he would be doing via distance learning versus homeschooling. 

Very few teens would be open to backing up a year when they've passed all their classes, but you could possibly present it as a way to have a 'super senior' year and to hopefully graduate when colleges are more on track after dealing with the pandemic. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

I would not at all say "most" high school graduates are at a 5th-grade level in math.

True, many of them don't even get to a 5th grade level.  Average is about 5th grade (basic fractions and decimals).

[nrbeckking]

Just now, EKS said:

True, many of them don't even get to a 5th grade level.  Average is about 5th grade (basic fractions and decimals).

I will agree that too many of our college students are going into remedial math......I just got my BA in History and worked alongside students in remedial courses. The vast majority of incoming freshmen were taking a remedial course UNLESS they were STEM majors

 

[EKS]

9 hours ago, square_25 said:

That has frankly been my experience with most college students taking calculus. They can do rote arithmetic with fractions (sometimes) and decimals, they can’t explain any of it intuitively, and they can’t do algebra.

The writing is the same way.  I have two (recent) master's degrees and in order to get them I had to do a lot of writing.  I also had to read a lot of writing done by the other students.  These were people with bachelor's degrees!  Writing that was riddled with basic grammatical errors and frequently bordering on nonsensical was very common.  Almost ubiquitous was summary and personal response rather than analysis and well considered arguments. And I never saw anyone, other than myself, actually attempt to extend the conversation with new ideas.  Not once.  

Now I will say that both programs were at second string state universities, so I would think that people in programs at better universities would be able to write better.  But I would guess that these people represented, for the most part, average college graduates--and that is what we are talking about here.

[Roadrunner]

12 hours ago, square_25 said:

That has frankly been my experience with most college students taking calculus. They can do rote arithmetic with fractions (sometimes) and decimals, they can’t explain any of it intuitively, and they can’t do algebra.

(This is why I never want to teach college calculus again. You can’t teach calculus to kids who never fully got what a variable was, or a function, either.)

Just curious about where you had this experience. Community College? Tier 3 four year schools? Tier 2? Tier 1? I hate to use the classification but I don’t know how to segregate them. 
If what you are saying is somewhat universal, then reading ratemyprofessor reviews are misleading. Do you find courses beyond Calculus attract a different set of kids? 
 

 

[Roadrunner]

I would makes sure my kid wants to be homeschooled 100% before pulling him. And I would make sure if he decides he wants to return back to school at some point, there is a path for that. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

I don’t know the tiers, but Stanford and UT Austin. So good schools.

😱😱😱

[EKS]

Here is a blog post by a professor at the University of Washington about the math abilities of the students in his atmospheric sciences course.  It's ten years old, but I suspect that things haven't changed much.

ETA: Back then, the average SAT math score of admitted students was around the 84th percentile.

Edited July 9, 2020 by EKS

[ScoutTN]

9 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I would makes sure my kid wants to be homeschooled 100% before pulling him. And I would make sure if he decides we wants to return back to school at some point, there is a path for that. 

Yes, check return path. In my state homeschooling high school is all or nothing; public schools will not accept homeschool credits. Not the same for all states, so check yours.

Edited July 10, 2020 by ScoutTN

[nrbeckking]

17 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Can I ask what you mean by "fifth grade level in math"?  Generally when kids are behind but have been kept in grade level classes, their skills aren't even enough that they correlate with a grade level like this.  

When I have him do placement tests for things like Saxon he fell between Saxon 6/5 and 7/6 and is wholeheartedly struggling with the beginning of 7/6 that I had on hand. We are breaking down every little bit of it and working through slowly right now. I know he will catch up because he is starting to catch on. His reading comprehension, vocabulary, and spelling are through the roof so when he went back to public school in 5th grade he was bumped up to 6th by the school and has somehow passed math each year although it wasn't until 9th grade when I had him repeat Algebra 1 that he pulled more than a C. He actually did pretty well in his Geometry class but I am now left wondering if he actually did well or were they so lax that anyone who made an effort got good grades.

We are in Texas so there is no return path should I pull him as it stands right now. If I were to pull him it would be to finish out high school.

[Roadrunner]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

DH tells me that while in grad school, he gave his students at the University of Chicago a quiz which was literally adding or subtracting two fractions with different large-ish denominators. 

Let's just say only half or so passed. 

This isn't an issue that's limited to the worse schools. It's absolutely endemic. 

Given the battery of tests these kids take and the scores they get before being accepted into places like Stanford and U Chicago, it makes so little sense to me. Most have SAT subject scores in math and sciences and APs and near perfect regular SATs. I understand majority might not have depths of AoPS, but what you are describing is a student population of our local CC. 😞
 

Not that I don’t believe you. I am just dumbfounded.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Roadrunner

[Arcadia]

On 7/7/2020 at 10:32 PM, nrbeckking said:

My son is 15 and headed into 11th grade. He will have to do distance learning next year because his sister is high risk. As I have been working with him since schools closed I realized he is at the 5th grade level in math (he passed Algebra 1 and Geometry) and cannot write a paragraph much less an essay.

I hired an English tutor for DS15 in 9th grade for world history just to teach DS15 essay writing skills using history. 11th grade is where all the community colleges here allow dual enrollment so more choices are available. If your son is keen to homeschool, I would go for it.  One on one is so much more efficient for catching up and for working on weaker areas. 

17 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Given the battery of tests these kids take and the scores they get before being accepted into places like Stanford and U Chicago, it makes so little sense to me.

My kids were disappointed with some of the graduate students volunteers at Stanford Splash. They have attended 3 times so far since 7th grade.

[nrbeckking]

53 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I hired an English tutor for DS15 in 9th grade for world history just to teach DS15 essay writing skills using history. 11th grade is where all the community colleges here allow dual enrollment so more choices are available. If your son is keen to homeschool, I would go for it.  One on one is so much more efficient for catching up and for working on weaker areas. 

He can't pass the placement test to get into Dual-Enrollment here. I am not pushing for him to go to DE at all honestly. He is only 15 and is not mature enough to handle that level just yet. He would be in normal classes with college students versus a class of only other high schoolers which would be a horrible fit maturity wise lol. 

I am working through Writing With Skill 1 with him now to try and strengthen those writing skills while also shoring up the math skills. He is slightly frustrated because his 11 year old sister is getting through the same text much faster and will be starting AOPS Pre-Algebra because her school doesn't challenge her. 

[8filltheheart]

15 hours ago, EKS said:

Here is a blog post by a professor at the University of Washington about the math abilities of the students in his atmospheric sciences course.  It's ten years old, but I suspect that things haven't changed much.

ETA: Back then, the average SAT math score of admitted students was around the 84th percentile.

Oh my. I'm actually shocked. I didn't expect it to be that bad. Goodness, my 14 yr old would make a 100 on that test (and she is my child that I classify as my weakest student) and my 10 yr old would pass it even not being able to answer questions about things she is clueless about (trig, scientific notation).  Out of curiosity I'm going to have her take it and see what happens.

@square_25 This thread should help you recognize why homeschoolers dont believe greater regulation works. These kids, the majority of them anyway, entered college from regulated schools. As the author of the article states, these are supposed to be the state's top students. 😞 What a sad mess.

[8filltheheart]

Just now, square_25 said:

There’s decent evidence that the average homeschooled student is worse off than this already pathetic result (that’s also what DH reports from UT.) I’ve taught these kids college classes and have a VERY good idea of how ridiculous the average level of math achievement is on coming from schools. 

In my opinion, the solution to this is to have qualified teachers — they can certainly be homeschoolers, but not all homeschoolers teach their kids math in a reasonable way. 

Can you share the studies?

[8filltheheart]

52 minutes ago, square_25 said:

This is about the only randomized one:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/gaither.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/the-cardus-education-survey-and-homeschooling/amp

I also have anecdotal data from AoPS and from my husband, although those are almost certainly inadmissible as evidence.

Most data people cite on this involves non-random samples. If you do use that data, you’d have to attempt to control for confounders, like in this SAT one:

https://ncspe.tc.columbia.edu/working-papers/OP88.pdf

Most studies people cite are not randomized and don’t control for confounders. So they are garbage as data.

Pretty much my point. There is not "decent evidence that the avg homeschooled student is worse off."   That first article had 82 homeschoolers.  Goodness, looking at my own family of young adults, 4 of them over the age of 23, saying that their outcomes are a reflection of homeschooling is absurd.  Homeschooling did not make my autistic ds not graduate from college.  It did not make my dd choose a 2 yr Allied health profession over a bachelors, masters, PhD.  So if you take their outcomes and compare them to a chemE and a PhD student and say that homeschooling is responsible, I guess our family has serious issues where we are educating different children unequally.  

FWIW, any studies from any POV that are older are pretty much useless bc there is no comparison in the population and demographics.  The newest data (but also outdated) data for the SAT that I found in a quick google search is from 2014.  The sample size is over 2x the the earlier 2001 study you linked.  Again, self-selecting bc not all homeschoolers take the SAT (where I live almost none do bc this is ACT territory).  But by my math, the numbers below represent at least 7% of homeschoolers.  (rough math of 2.5 million homeschoolers in 2014 divided by 13 grades and assuming (a huge leap bc most homeschoolers do not homeschool for high school) that 1/13 of that number takes the test in 11ish grade.....definitely not accurate, but I am trying to find at least some perspective for the 13,549 number.)

Quote

The SAT 2014 test scores of college-bound homeschool students were higher than the national average of all college-bound seniors that same year. Some 13,549 homeschool seniors had the following mean scores: 567 in critical reading, 521 in mathematics, and 535 in writing (College Board, 2014a). The mean SAT scores for all college-bound seniors in 2014 were 497 in critical reading, 513 in mathematics, and 487 in writing (College Board, 2014b). The homeschool students’ SAT scores were 0.61 standard deviation higher in reading, 0.26 standard deviation higher in mathematics, and 0.42 standard deviation higher in writing than those of all college-bound seniors taking the SAT, and these are notably large differences.

All the data I have ever seen is very limited in value.  It is really hard to make blanket statements about homeschoolers.

Edited July 10, 2020 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jann in TX]

I'm in Texas and have 2 homeschool graduates and 1 recent PS graduate.   One of my homeschool graduates left PS in 10th grade and homeschooled the remaining years of high school-- she also did DE in 11th and 12th grade for most of her core classes.  Mommy transcripts were NO ISSUE with college acceptance for my homeschooled children.

In Texas is up to the individual district when it comes to accepting homeschool credits-- it does not hurt to ask.  Our district has an 'absolutely no homeschool credits' rule-- and every year they have several exceptions!  This year 2 of the top 10% of graduating seniors (class of 170 students) were homeschooled for at least one high school year...

Also, I would NOT remediate math using Saxon (I'm very familiar with it having used it with my older children and teaching from it for over 10 years).  I would use a program like Lial that was DESIGNED to remediate in an efficient manner-- Lial's Basic College Math if he cannot recognize a fraction (I seriously doubt this) but most likely Lial Pre-Algebra would make quick work of it and provide a good foundation for Algebra review as well-- it reviews middle school math and goes into basic algebra-- the student text is all that is needed.

 

[CAtoVA]

My two cents is yes, pull completely and remediate him yourself. Would you do worse than what he has had, lol? I second making sure he is on board with the change, however. When my 16 yo decides not to work nothing gets done!

My DS was hs K-3 and then in private school and our "highly regarded" public schools for 4-6. When he came back home  in 7th he couldn't write as well as I would have expected from my other kids who had never been inside a "real" school. His "honors" level 6th grade English class featured reading one novel the entire year and his writing "instruction" was pretty much nil. DS's work mostly consisted of reading 1-2 page paragraph passages and responding to a few comprehension questions. Probably this was all prep for the annual standardized testing. Math was a lot of "stuff," but very little conceptual understanding. In 5th grade when I asked for the curriculum materials being used (so I could support him at home) I was told there were no set materials being used but a little of this and a little of that. He also typically spent 1-2 hours per day on the computer doing some sort of assessment tests in various subjects which he found exhausting and certainly didn't contribute t his learning anything. It took me two years (start of 9th grade) to bring DS to  a point in writing I would have expected him to have reached by the end of 6th-7th grade. 

I think many parents are now realizing the emperor has no clothes and their "highly regarded" and expensive school systems are promulgating dreck in the name of "teaching" students anything rigorous or useful. I have heard similar stories from others in my "real" life. I would definitely pull if your child is willing.

 

 

 

[nrbeckking]

Ok so he does not currently attend a normal public school. He attends a charter that has a focus on visual and performing arts. He is gay, immature, and ADHD. He did not fit in at the normal schools here. There are no "different sections" in his school. His 11th grade class has about 30 people in it total. He is in the 3rd quartile for gpa. He isn't going to get automatically admitted to any state schools right now without a good SAT score (Texas top 10% get in so he would need to be 3rd in his class). His guidance counselor said they only give credit for accredited courses but on a grad school student and teacher income in this house that just isn't happening. I think I am going to see how the first semester goes with distance learning and remediating at home before we pull him. I am having him also read good books and discuss them with me. 

So far we are doing:

Saxon 7/6 but may move to something like Lial's

Writing With Skill 1

Easy Grammar Grade 10

Mom-made geography crash course (I think this is crucial to understanding politics/current events/placement of historical events)

Guest-Hollow Physics to accompany his high school Physics course

Lots of reading of both great books and historical fiction/non-fiction covering Ancients through Medieval Times

SAT prep on Khan

Code Break on Code.org

Spanish 1 - supplementing what he is supposed to do this year in school

[nrbeckking]

I can pick up Lial's Basic College Mathematics for about $13. Is there an answer key somewhere or am I working out all the problems alongside him?

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, nrbeckking said:

I can pick up Lial's Basic College Mathematics for about $13. Is there an answer key somewhere or am I working out all the problems alongside him?

for 8th édition 

https://www.amazon.com/Student-Solutions-Manual-College-Mathematics/dp/0321574648

[nrbeckking]

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

for 8th édition 

https://www.amazon.com/Student-Solutions-Manual-College-Mathematics/dp/0321574648

Thank you so much. I didn't know what it was called to even search for it. I found both the book and solutions for about $20 total! Pretty good deal if I say so myself