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International Students & On-Line Semester

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I must be missing something obvious, but if the school they are attending goes to online only, wouldn't these students be able to still take classes online?  Colleges dorms won't be open if they are going online.  Seems like the general purpose is to cut down on travel which is good during a pandemic, isn't it?

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1 hour ago, JanOH said:

I must be missing something obvious, but if the school they are attending goes to online only, wouldn't these students be able to still take classes online?  Colleges dorms won't be open if they are going online.  Seems like the general purpose is to cut down on travel which is good during a pandemic, isn't it?

Yes, you're missing a lot of obvious.  The purpose is most absolutely NOT to cut down on travel.  It will increase travel and cruelly punish people who want nothing other than to get an education and improve their lives - and ours - international students subsidize our very expensive universities, and many are in brain-strainy tech and science fields American students seem less interested in pursuing, who then stay and are a great driver to our economy.

Things are up in the air for the fall semester everywhere.  Many classes may or may not be online.  Housing has to be arranged, dorm contracts signed or leases paid for.  How do you do that when you don't even know if you'll have a visa?  And they're also saying that you will lose your visa mid-semester if classes go online?  Break your housing contract and get a plane home?  Many of these students come from halfway around the world where the time difference can be off by 12 hours or so.  All their classes are now in the middle of the night?  (Ask how that's been going for lewelma's kid.  Fortunately he's a US citizen and has family he can stay with in the same time zone).  Some countries have grid or internet reliability issues.  

And some people are building their lives here.  My dd's girlfriend is from India.  They've been together for 2 years now.  They share an apartment. She has been planning on finishing her degree, and there's also been a visa program for students to work for a couple of years after. She's already been worried with the threatened cancellation of the after-college visa work program.  Now she may be forced to evacuate mid-semester or risk suddenly being an illegal immigrant?  India is not allowing people in.  Lots of Indians here for work have been wanting to go home as it's gotten bad here. Can't get flights.  She hasn't even been back home in years.  Besides her parents are weird and controlling - it's not just US students who don't always have a good domestic situation to easily return to.   Heck, even last year when Covid hit, many colleges left dorms open for students (domestic and international) who didn't have somewhere safe to go. But again, even if she was told she had to leave, she might not be able to even get a flight home or be allowed in.  Then... could she ever come back?  Her life is here.  She and dd have thought maybe someday they'd get married, but they have thought now they just might have to do it to protect her.  But then your whole life comes under scrutiny to make sure you're 'really' a couple.  Dd is beside herself that she could lose her girlfriend, possibly forever, in an instant. If she just stays here in spite of the new rule (currently she does have one in-person class, but of course that could change at any time), that could impact her ability to get residency later.  For obvious reasons, they also can't just move to India.  They've thought about moving to Canada, but they won't take anyone now either.  It's putting so many people in impossible situations.

My other dd's roommate last spring is from South Africa.  She had to evacuate in March; she lost her on-campus job and couldn't pay rent anymore.  We went to bat for her to get her out of the lease.  She hopes to come back for the fall semester; dd would like to room with her again, but everything's up in the air.  Would she have to leave again?  She's obviously hesitant to sign a lease at this point.  She's a music major, and does have at least one in-person class, but if that changes?  She loses her visa?  In this case, this is not a wealthy student.  She does not have the money to break leases and take last-minute international flights over and over.

This creates more travel during a pandemic, not less.  Many, many international students stay here over the summers.  These are people who have done everything 'right', played by the rules, are a huge benefit to our economy, and they're being threatened with deportation overnight if their classes change to online because of a virus???!!!

Cruel, heartless, punitive for no reason.  These are people's lives.  And it will bankrupt the universities and harm the US economy, so also short-sighted and unbelievably stupid.

The only thing I'm hanging on to is that the universities are going to rise up and squash this.  International students are their bread and butter. Those are most of the people paying the full ticket and subsidizing the US students' scholarships.  If this happens, a lot of these students are going to just not come back.  New students are not going to enroll.  It's bad enough that we've got the highest cases of Covid in the world and going up - that's enough reason for people not to come here.  The last thing the universities need is for international students not to be able to be here at all.  As if the universities didn't have enough problems right now, this would be the nail in the coffin.

Harvard is all online in the fall (freshmen are allowed in dorms, but their classes will be online, so no visas for them?).  The entire CA state system will be online in the fall.  None of their international students will be allowed visas to come here?  Or in many/most cases stay here.  College is 4 years; grad school is even more.  These people have lives here, might have been living here for years and have no place to live back in their home country.  Yet they're supposed to just book a flight and leave on a dime.  It's breathtakingly cruel and stunningly stupid.

Edited by Matryoshka
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2 hours ago, JanOH said:

I must be missing something obvious, but if the school they are attending goes to online only, wouldn't these students be able to still take classes online?  Colleges dorms won't be open if they are going online.  Seems like the general purpose is to cut down on travel which is good during a pandemic, isn't it?

This says that not only would these students be banned from entering the US, they must leave the US if they are already here.  So, it would cause some students to travel who would not otherwise.  Also, a number of universities have gone to a "residential online" model which classes will be online, but students residing on campus (in open dorms) will have opportunities for small group study sessions, access to the library, and other on-campus opportunities.

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8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This says that not only would these students be banned from entering the US, they must leave the US if they are already here.  So, it would cause some students to travel who would not otherwise.  Also, a number of universities have gone to a "residential online" model which classes will be online, but students residing on campus (in open dorms) will have opportunities for small group study sessions, access to the library, and other on-campus opportunities.

Thank you.  That makes sense.

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54 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes, you're missing a lot of obvious.  The purpose is most absolutely NOT to cut down on travel.  It will increase travel and cruelly punish people who want nothing other than to get an education and improve their lives - and ours - international students subsidize our very expensive universities, and many are in brain-strainy tech and science fields American students seem less interested in pursuing, who then stay and are a great driver to our economy.

Things are up in the air for the fall semester everywhere.  Many classes may or may not be online.  Housing has to be arranged, dorm contracts signed or leases paid for.  How do you do that when you don't even know if you'll have a visa?  And they're also saying that you will lose your visa mid-semester if classes go online?  Break your housing contract and get a plane home?  Many of these students come from halfway around the world where the time difference can be off by 12 hours or so.  All their classes are now in the middle of the night?  (Ask how that's been going for lewelma's kid.  Fortunately he's a US citizen and has family he can stay with in the same time zone).  Some countries have grid or internet reliability issues.  

And some people are building their lives here.  My dd's girlfriend is from India.  They've been together for 2 years now.  They share an apartment. She has been planning on finishing her degree, and there's also been a visa program for students to work for a couple of years after. She's already been worried with the threatened cancellation of the after-college visa work program.  Now she may be forced to evacuate mid-semester or risk suddenly being an illegal immigrant?  India is not allowing people in.  Lots of Indians here for work have been wanting to go home as it's gotten bad here. Can't get flights.  She hasn't even been back home in years.  Besides her parents are weird and controlling - it's not just US students who don't always have a good domestic situation to easily return to.   Heck, even last year when Covid hit, many colleges left dorms open for students (domestic and international) who didn't have somewhere safe to go. But again, even if she was told she had to leave, she might not be able to even get a flight home or be allowed in.  Then... could she ever come back?  Her life is here.  She and dd have thought maybe someday they'd get married, but they have thought now they just might have to do it to protect her.  But then your whole life comes under scrutiny to make sure you're 'really' a couple.  Dd is beside herself that she could lose her girlfriend, possibly forever, in an instant. If she just stays here in spite of the new rule (currently she does have one in-person class, but of course that could change at any time), that could impact her ability to get residency later.  For obvious reasons, they also can't just move to India.  They've thought about moving to Canada, but they won't take anyone now either.  It's putting so many people in impossible situations.

My other dd's roommate last spring is from South Africa.  She had to evacuate in March; she lost her on-campus job and couldn't pay rent anymore.  We went to bat for her to get her out of the lease.  She hopes to come back for the fall semester; dd would like to room with her again, but everything's up in the air.  Would she have to leave again?  She's obviously hesitant to sign a lease at this point.  She's a music major, and does have at least one in-person class, but if that changes?  She loses her visa?  In this case, this is not a wealthy student.  She does not have the money to break leases and take last-minute international flights over and over.

This creates more travel during a pandemic, not less.  Many, many international students stay here over the summers.  These are people who have done everything 'right', played by the rules, are a huge benefit to our economy, and they're being threatened with deportation overnight if their classes change to online because of a virus???!!!

Cruel, heartless, punitive for no reason.  These are people's lives.  And it will bankrupt the universities and harm the US economy, so also short-sighted and unbelievably stupid.

The only thing I'm hanging on to is that the universities are going to rise up and squash this.  International students are their bread and butter. Those are most of the people paying the full ticket and subsidizing the US students' scholarships.  If this happens, a lot of these students are going to just not come back.  New students are not going to enroll.  It's bad enough that we've got the highest cases of Covid in the world and going up - that's enough reason for people not to come here.  The last thing the universities need is for international students not to be able to be here at all.  As if the universities didn't have enough problems right now, this would be the nail in the coffin.

Harvard is all online in the fall (freshmen are allowed in dorms, but their classes will be online, so no visas for them?).  The entire CA state system will be online in the fall.  None of their international students will be allowed visas to come here?  Or in many/most cases stay here.  College is 4 years; grad school is even more.  These people have lives here, might have been living here for years and have no place to live back in their home country.  Yet they're supposed to just book a flight and leave on a dime.  It's breathtakingly cruel and stunningly stupid.

Obviously a hot topic for you and many.  Thanks for explaining it from your perspective.  We, also, have acquaintances who will be affected by this change.  

Just to one of your points.  If they are here on a student visa, their time in the states was already limited, not indefinite and building a life here would already be a bit precarious and based upon the unknown of being granted citizenship or a more permanent visa.

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I know two graduate students who are in this situation right now.  They were in the middle of graduate programs when things hit in the spring and it did not make sense, for a number of reasons, for them to return to their home country this spring.  They thought summer and fall classes would be in person.  

Hopefully, other countries will not retaliate.  My daughter is in Austria working on a graduate degree.  She has an apartment there; that is her "home" right now.  

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9 minutes ago, JanOH said:

Obviously a hot topic for you and many.  Thanks for explaining it from your perspective.  We, also, have acquaintances who will be affected by this change.  

Just to one of your points.  If they are here on a student visa, their time in the states was already limited, not indefinite and building a life here would already be a bit precarious and based upon the unknown of being granted citizenship or a more permanent visa.

You could not be shipped off at a moment's notice mid-semester, suddenly and instantaneously through caprice and have your legal immigration status revoked.  You could commit to leases and not leave roommates suddenly in the lurch.  You would not be sent back to a country where you may not have any housing options - not every student has family they can just move back in with, the same as domestic students.  There were always visa options to work for a couple of years after college, and many times companies would then sponsor them for their green cards based on that work.  Absolutely people could come here as students and have a potential path for living a life here and have a path toward a green card or citizenship if that is what they wanted to work toward.  At the very least you could plan one or more years in advance and put contingency plans in place, or work toward another option.  It has never been precarious like this.

Edited by Matryoshka
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This is incredibly dangerous. There are many countries where the airports are still closed. For example, @Lanny's dd is an American, but if she was Colombian, she couldn't go home because there are no flights. That makes a lot of people effectively stateless in the short term. They can't stay here legally, but they have no way to get home. 

Edited by chiguirre
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24 minutes ago, JanOH said:

Obviously a hot topic for you and many.  Thanks for explaining it from your perspective.  We, also, have acquaintances who will be affected by this change.  

Just to one of your points.  If they are here on a student visa, their time in the states was already limited, not indefinite and building a life here would already be a bit precarious and based upon the unknown of being granted citizenship or a more permanent visa.

Without the F-1 Visa program, there would be far fewer foreign students willing to pay US prices for higher education. Being able to get a job here to build their resume is the main point of studying in the US. 

That would quickly make many US schools insolvent. They're already in a hard place with Covid, that would finish them off. But that might be the point of the policy.

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5 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

This is incredibly dangerous. There are many countries where the airports are still closed. For example, @Lanny's dd is an American, but if she was Colombian, she couldn't go home because there are no flights. That makes a lot of people effectively stateless in the short term. They can't stay here legally, but they have no way to get home. 

Exactly. Someone I know is in this situation. She can’t get home if she wanted to. What is she supposed to do if her Visa is suddenly revoked? It’s just needlessly cruel to do this to people. There’s no reason. 

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6 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

This is incredibly dangerous. There are many countries where the airports are still closed. For example, @Lanny's dd is an American, but if she was Colombian, she couldn't go home because there are no flights. That makes a lot of people effectively stateless in the short term. They can't stay here legally, but they have no way to get home. 

This.  As I said, lots of people are trying to get home to India now and can't, so even if she wanted to, dd's gf couldn't just flit on home.  This makes legal students who followed all the rules suddenly illegally here, through no fault of their own, with no way to leave, and their sudden illegal status also could impact them coming back again to finish their degrees if they did finally figure out how to leave, or to attain legal status through work after graduation.

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2 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Without the F-1 Visa program, there would be far fewer foreign students willing to pay US prices for higher education. Being able to get a job here to build their resume is the main point of studying in the US. 

That would quickly make many US schools insolvent. They're already in a hard place with Covid, that would finish them off. But that might be the point of the policy.

This is why I'm hoping there will be huge push-back.  

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2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

This.  As I said, lots of people are trying to get home to India now and can't, so even if she wanted to, dd's gf couldn't just flit on home.  This makes legal students who followed all the rules suddenly illegally here, through no fault of their own, with no way to leave, and their sudden illegal status also could impact them coming back again to finish their degrees if they did finally figure out how to leave, or to attain legal status through work after graduation.

I don't know about India but I know flights to Europe have always ran to take people home and others like my niece who managed to make it in even though she's a US citizen.  Jordan I know has also ran repatriation flights.  I am not commenting on the OP, just to the flight issue. 

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1 minute ago, madteaparty said:

I don't know about India but I know flights to Europe have always ran to take people home and others like my niece who managed to make it in even though she's a US citizen.  Jordan I know has also ran repatriation flights.  I am not commenting on the OP, just to the flight issue. 

Yes, but that's not everywhere and not where the majority of international students come from.  I know flights to India are problematic right now.  Not sure about China.  But apparently Colombia is also locked down, even to citizens.  This cavalier attitude of, well, it might not a be a problem for some people so screw everyone else for whom it is, is no way to make a policy that will affect countless real lives.  Maybe people from those countries should just go to Europe, since apparently they're letting anyone in.  Don't know where they'd live or how they'd support themselves once they got there.

Oh, wait, hasn't the EU just banned travel from the US?

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Just now, Matryoshka said:

Yes, but that's not everywhere and not where the majority of international students come from.  I know flights to India are problematic right now.  Not sure about China.  But apparently Colombia is also locked down, even to citizens.  This cavalier attitude of, well, it might not a be a problem for some people so screw everyone else for whom it is, is no way to make a policy that will affect countless real lives.  Maybe people from those countries should just go to Europe, since apparently they're letting anyone in.  Don't know where they'd live or how they'd support themselves once they got there.

Oh, wait, hasn't the EU just banned travel from the US?

??? I was responding to the flight issue. It is false that we would have stateless (!!) citizens because there are no flights. There are flights. I said I am not commenting on the OP. Two things can be true at the same time, there can be flights and this can be a cruel policy. 

Europe banned travel from the US but it is not cut and dried, you can still get a visa, and there are other exceptions. In case you are actually asking me what Europe is doing.

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Just now, madteaparty said:

??? I was responding to the flight issue. It is false that we would have stateless (!!) citizens because there are no flights. There are flights. I said I am not commenting on the OP. Two things can be true at the same time, there can be flights and this can be a cruel policy. 

Europe banned travel from the US but it is not cut and dried, you can still get a visa, and there are other exceptions. In case you are actually asking me what Europe is doing.

I just told you, there are not flights everywhere.  People just can't fly to some random other country.  Europe is not going to give visas to Indian and South American citizens traveling from the US who can't get home to their own countries ???!!!!

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7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I just told you, there are not flights everywhere.  People just can't fly to some random other country.  Europe is not going to give visas to Indian and South American citizens traveling from the US who can't get home to their own countries ???!!!!

I am talking about repatriation flights. About one a day from my area to India last I checked. Columbia has repatriated 5000 citizens.

You know, we can talk about how bad this policy is without actual wrong information which detracts from the real issue. 

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13 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I am talking about repatriation flights. About one a day from my area to India last I checked. Columbia has repatriated 5000 citizens.

You know, we can talk about how bad this policy is without actual wrong information which detracts from the real issue. 

The link I gave above about stranded Indian citizens was about repatriation flights.  They are very hard to find seats on, and certainly not at the drop of a hat when your school suddenly decides to go online at a moment's notice mid-semester.  Which still doesn't even cover all they myriad other problems with this, like what about the lease you signed, and what about getting back, and what if you have no place to live anymore or any way to earn money in your home country? 

What, pray tell, is the 'real issue'??

Edited by Matryoshka
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I agree that this is a huge funding problem for a lot of universities. When state and federal funding was cut back dramatically, a number of those universities began targeting international students who pay premium tuition amounts.

The student visa enforcement situation (students have always been required to attend brick and mortar, not online courses) is part of a systematic tightening across the board. The H1B situation is also pretty ugly right now.

One can repatriate back to India, but you can’t get back out. Dh’s coworker’s dad died this week and he can’t go back for the funeral. 😞 

Vote. If you don’t like the regressive and systemic push to end or severely limit legal immigration into our country, change the administration.

A corollary: if you want “home grown” engineers and doctors, fund education adequately, and push for those dollars to go to classrooms and not administrators.

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16 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

The link I gave above about stranded Indian citizens was about repatriation flights.  They are very hard to find seats on, and certainly not at the drop of a hat when your school suddenly decides to go online at a moment's notice mid-semester.  Which still doesn't even cover all they myriad other problems with this, like what about the lease you signed, and what about getting back, and what if you have no place to live anymore or any way to earn money in your home country? 

What, pray tell, is the 'real issue'??

The real issue is that this administration, has, from the very beginning been trying to limit at any cost legal immigration. The wall and illegal immigration are red herrings, what they really want to do is limit the number of high skilled workers from coming in this country. To that end, this is a logical step in that policy, since students come for college, then stay a year legally and then maybe get work visas or whatever.  The crueler the policy the better, this are the same people that thought kids in cages would be a good deterrent.

but you can argue with me whether there are planes back to India or not. 

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1 minute ago, madteaparty said:

The real issue is that this administration, has, from the very beginning been trying to limit at any cost legal immigration. The wall and illegal immigration are red herrings, what they really want to do is limit the number of high skilled workers from coming in this country. To that end, this is a logical step in that policy, since students come for college, then stay a year legally and then maybe get work visas or whatever.  The crueler the policy the better, this are the same people that thought kids in cages would be a good deterrent.

but you can argue with me whether there are planes back to India or not. 

Well I'll agree with you here.  Also on the crueler the policy the better - it's just that I'm a bit stuck on the extra-cruel at the moment, as you're right, it's personal. 😟

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14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I agree that this is a huge funding problem for a lot of universities. When state and federal funding was cut back dramatically, a number of those universities began targeting international students who pay premium tuition amounts.

The student visa enforcement situation (students have always been required to attend brick and mortar, not online courses) is part of a systematic tightening across the board. The H1B situation is also pretty ugly right now.

One can repatriate back to India, but you can’t get back out. Dh’s coworker’s dad died this week and he can’t go back for the funeral. 😞 

Vote. If you don’t like the regressive and systemic push to end or severely limit legal immigration into our country, change the administration.

A corollary: if you want “home grown” engineers and doctors, fund education adequately, and push for those dollars to go to classrooms and not administrators.

That's the glimmer of hope I was hoping for for the post-grad work visas - that by the time dd's gf graduated, we'd have a new administration.  No amount of voting, unfortunately, will help if this is in place for the fall semester...

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The green card suspension at the same time even makes the visa situation even more dire. Even if you converted the GF’s visa from student to K1 and then married within 90 days there’s no guarantee that green cards will be available as processing in country applications has all been suspended to at least January.

It’s just ugly and hard.

Can she talk with student legal services?

Edited by prairiewindmomma
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2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The green card suspension at the same time even makes the visa situation even more dire. Even if you converted the GF’s visa from student to K1 and then married within 90 days there’s no guarantee that green cards will be available as processing in country applications has all been suspended to at least January.

It’s just ugly and hard.

Can she talk with student legal services?

Well, currently I think one of her classes has an in-person component.  The problem will be if the university suddenly decides to go all online like what happened in March.  I was thinking that all universities should make a mandatory 1-credit in-person 'class' for local international students that involves going on to campus and drawing a tree or writing a reflection by themselves...  

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It's a disaster on so many levels.

For the students whose lives are uprooted. Kicking those students out serves no purpose other than political showmanship. But this administration is lacking compassion.

For the US colleges who rely on paying foreign students to fill the gaps the cuts in state appropriations have left. Which means they either have to fire even more instructors or raise tuition - both of which hurts the domestic students.) But this administration in not pro-education.

For the researches at US colleges who work with foreign graduate students, especially in the sciences. But this administration is not pro-science.

The lives and perspectives of the US students and communities are enriched by their interactions with people from other cultures. But this administration is xenophobic.

The highly trained individuals often end up contributing to the US economy by taking a job in areas that desperately look for specialists. But, xenophobia.

In this administration's attempt to hurt individuals from other countries in order to bolster poll ratings, they are making US colleges, researchers, and ultimately students collateral damage. What a disgrace. "Cut off your nose to spite your face."

Edited by regentrude
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6 hours ago, JanOH said:

I must be missing something obvious, but if the school they are attending goes to online only, wouldn't these students be able to still take classes online?  Colleges dorms won't be open if they are going online.  Seems like the general purpose is to cut down on travel which is good during a pandemic, isn't it?

 

Normally, I don't think U.S. law permits International students to take Online courses. I don't believe the Visa regulations would permit someone to get a Student Visa, go to the USA as an International Student, and then take only Online courses. If the law does permit Online courses, the number of Online courses would I believe be very limited.

But that was before Covid-19 and possibly there was a temporary exemption from the law during the Spring 2020 semester, but whether that will be extended for the Fall 2020 semester possibly hasn't been decided yet?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

Normally, I don't think U.S. law permits International students to take Online courses. I don't believe the Visa regulations would permit someone to get a Student Visa, go to the USA as an International Student, and then take only Online courses. If the law does permit Online courses, the number of Online courses would I believe be very limited.

But that was before Covid-19 and possibly there was a temporary exemption from the law during the Spring 2020 semester, but whether that will be extended for the Fall 2020 semester possibly hasn't been decided yet?

Don't think so, this seems new, harsh and punitive, signed because of Covid, not in spite of it. This just came out Monday.

Since places like Harvard and the entire University of California system are entirely online this fall, guess no international students for them.

Your dd's lucky she has dual citizenship. Think about if she didn't. 

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4 hours ago, chiguirre said:

This is incredibly dangerous. There are many countries where the airports are still closed. For example, @Lanny's dd is an American, but if she was Colombian, she couldn't go home because there are no flights. That makes a lot of people effectively stateless in the short term. They can't stay here legally, but they have no way to get home. 

 

My DD is a dual citizen (USA and Colombia). Yes, the reason she cannot come home at this time is because there are no airline flights, Domestic or International.  I think when she can eventually come home (hopefully Thanksgiving 2020) she may need to do a 14 day Quarantine, but we have a big house and that's not a problem.  Hopefully by then the Colombian government will not require her to do a Quarantine, but if they do, she'll do it in the house. 

At this time, it looks like airline flights may be permitted on or after September 1st.  :-)

You are correct that there is no way for her to get home.  Our borders are sealed. The U.S. Embassy occasionally sends emails about "Humanitarian" flights to the USA (For U.S. Citizens and LPRs (Legal Permanent Residents) Usually on SPIRIT to Fort Lauderdale) but if someone is in the USA and needs to get to Colombia, it is, as far as I know, impossible. Possibly the Colombian government has "Humanitarian" flights from the USA, but I don't know if they do or don't have them.    The Quarantine for "normal" people (those under 70) is currently set to expire on July 15th. For those of us over 70, it is set to expire on September 1st. Everything is subject to change without notice and I suspect depends upon the Covid-19 situation in the USA and in Europe. 

I thank God that my DD and her roommate (an International student) are  safe and sound in Carolina.

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20 minutes ago, Lanny said:

You are correct that there is no way for her to get home.  Our borders are sealed. The U.S. Embassy occasionally sends emails about "Humanitarian" flights to the USA (For U.S. Citizens and LPRs (Legal Permanent Residents) Usually on SPIRIT to Fort Lauderdale) but if someone is in the USA and needs to get to Colombia, it is, as far as I know, impossible. Possibly the Colombian government has "Humanitarian" flights from the USA, but I don't know if they do or don't have them.    The Quarantine for "normal" people (those under 70) is currently set to expire on July 15th. For those of us over 70, it is set to expire on September 1st. Everything is subject to change without notice and I suspect depends upon the Covid-19 situation in the USA and in Europe. 

So imagine what it's going to be like for all the Colombian student's who don't happen to be so fortunate to have dual citizenship if things go online...

Quote

I thank God that my DD and her roommate (an International student) are  safe and sound in Carolina.

What will happen to her roommate if classes go online again?  Will she have to flee the country?  Will she be able to?

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4 hours ago, kand said:

Exactly. Someone I know is in this situation. She can’t get home if she wanted to. What is she supposed to do if her Visa is suddenly revoked? It’s just needlessly cruel to do this to people. There’s no reason. 

 

When the Immigration laws and regulations were written, probably many years ago, they had no idea there would be a Covid-19 pandemic in 2020. I am wondering if President Trump can write and sign an Executive Order that would, temporarily, override the U.S. laws?  If not, then it would require congressional action to change the laws that are involved?

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3 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

When the Immigration laws and regulations were written, probably many years ago, they had no idea there would be a Covid-19 pandemic in 2020. I am wondering if President Trump can write and sign an Executive Order that would, temporarily, override the U.S. laws?  If not, then it would require congressional action to change the laws that are involved?

No, this is a new order, in response to so many schools going online because of the pandemic. It is specifically designed to do harm. On purpose. 

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3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So imagine what it's going to be like for all the Colombian student's who don't happen to be so fortunate to have dual citizenship if things go online...

What will happen to her roommate if classes go online again?  Will she have to flee the country?  Will she be able to?

 

To your first point, not a good spot to be in. I suspect the Colombian government may have "Humanitarian" flights from the USA to Colombia, but if so, I have no knowledge about them.

To your second point: After I read a couple of articles about this on my phone, last night, I Forwarded them to my DD via WhatsApp. I suggested that her roommate try to take as many courses as possible that are not starting out planning to be exclusively "Online", but "Hybrid" or "In Person". My DD responded that her roommate is thinking about going home, to save the cost of living in the  Dorm and eating in the Meal Hall.  I told her I hope that her roommate will not need to do that.  Yes, she will be able to get home. She's been a great roommate for DD and they are/were planning to be roommates again for the 2020 to 2021 school year.

 

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5 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

No, this is a new order, in response to so many schools going online because of the pandemic. It is specifically designed to do harm. On purpose. 

Actually, from what I understand, the order revokes the temporary exemption that had been made because of the pandemic and reverts to the regular rules (possibly with another modification, I am not sure - but not as generous as it was for the spring)
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/sevp-modifies-temporary-exemptions-nonimmigrant-students-taking-online-courses-during

But since they were legally able to create the pandemic exemption for the spring semester, there is no reason why they wouldn't have been able to extend the rule for the fall semester.    ICE.

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6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

No, this is a new order, in response to so many schools going online because of the pandemic. It is specifically designed to do harm. On purpose. 

 

Are you sure about that? The Immigration laws and regulations are normally pretty straightforward? This is permitted. That is prohibited. I read, 2 or 3 weeks ago, that many who were planning to apply for Student Visas for the Fall 2020 semester and beyond cannot get them, because the U.S.  Consulates are operating with "skeleton" staffs and they are not taking or processing Visa applications.   I know for sure, from emails I receive from the ACS in the U.S. Embassy in Bogota that they are not taking Passport or other applications, unless there is an emergency and someone is going to fly on one of the "Humanitarian" flights from Colombia to the USA.

Here's something for you and this was last year, before anyone had ever heard of COVID -19:  DIL has a friend or cousin who married a man who lives in the USA. That was about 3 or 4 years ago. They applied for a Visa for her to go to the USA and nothing happened. After 3 (?) years, they decided to get a divorce...  

My DW has a friend who has a daughter who was introduced to someone in the USA. We explained the above paragraph to them and suggested that it would probably be quicker and less expensive for him to apply for a Fiancee Visa for her and then get married in the USA.

There are not many Visas, if any,  of any type being issued at this time, due to reduced staffing because of COVID-19. Probably no Visas are being issued. Nobody to take or process the applications.

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4 minutes ago, Lanny said:

 

Are you sure about that? The Immigration laws and regulations are normally pretty straightforward? This is permitted. That is prohibited. I read, 2 or 3 weeks ago, that many who were planning to apply for Student Visas for the Fall 2020 semester and beyond cannot get them, because the U.S.  Consulates are operating with "skeleton" staffs and they are not taking or processing Visa applications.   I know for sure, from emails I receive from the ACS in the U.S. Embassy in Bogota that they are not taking Passport or other applications, unless there is an emergency and someone is going to fly on one of the "Humanitarian" flights from Colombia to the USA.

Here's something for you and this was last year, before anyone had ever heard of COVID -19:  DIL has a friend or cousin who married a man who lives in the USA. That was about 3 or 4 years ago. They applied for a Visa for her to go to the USA and nothing happened. After 3 (?) years, they decided to get a divorce...  

My DW has a friend who has a daughter who was introduced to someone in the USA. We explained the above paragraph to them and suggested that it would probably be quicker and less expensive for him to apply for a Fiancee Visa for her and then get married in the USA.

There are not many Visas, if any,  of any type being issued at this time, due to reduced staffing because of COVID-19. Probably no Visas are being issued. Nobody to take or process the applications.

The link to the new advisory, just out Monday, is I think in the first post.  Here's another link.

ETA:  This is for students who are already enrolled, already here, who already have Visas.  They are revoking their Visas that have already been issued.  Extra work, not less.

Edited by Matryoshka
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6 minutes ago, Lanny said:

Are you sure about that? The Immigration laws and regulations are normally pretty straightforward? This is permitted. That is prohibited. I read, 2 or 3 weeks ago, that many who were planning to apply for Student Visas for the Fall 2020 semester and beyond cannot get them, because the U.S.  Consulates are operating with "skeleton" staffs and they are not taking or processing Visa applications.   I know for sure, from emails I receive from the ACS in the U.S. Embassy in Bogota that they are not taking Passport or other applications, unless there is an emergency and someone is going to fly on one of the "Humanitarian" flights from Colombia to the USA.

The order does not refer to staffing difficulties and temporary delays due to COVID. It rescinds back the exemption they granted, due to the pandemic, for the spring semester. From the document I linked:

Quote

Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States. The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States. Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status. If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings.

This is not about staff shortages at embassies and consulates. 

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So, I'm not saying this is true, but someone wondered if the revocation was meant to force the colleges' hands to do more in person teaching  (i.e., open up vs. all online) so as not to lose the foreign student revenue. [This does seem possible since the current President is taking a "everything is fine" view.]

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5 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

So, I'm not saying this is true, but someone wondered if the revocation was meant to force the colleges' hands to do more in person teaching  (i.e., open up vs. all online) so as not to lose the foreign student revenue. [This does seem possible since the current President is taking a "everything is fine" view.]

They're going to lose a lot more student revenue by telling them all the they might be summarily deported mid-semester! 

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I don’t know if it’s true, but apparently they only gave 10 days to leave the country (?).

 

I think another big reason why some may want to be here even if it’s online is timing of the classes. I remember my DS doing at AoPS class at 3:30 AM because we had to travel for an emergency. It was terrible. Imagine doing an entire school year at night for some of these kids. 

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14 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

They're going to lose a lot more student revenue by telling them all the they might be summarily deported mid-semester! 

I sure don't think it is smart! Most colleges have gone to a lot of trouble to plan out what they are going to do. The idea that they would turn on a dime & go in person because of this is not a smart one. Just offering another idea of the thinking behind it that I read somewhere else.

Motovation: Evil & stupid vs. stupid & dumb?

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It's just mind-blowingly awful. 

One of DD1's college friends had to wait over 60 days for a seat on a flight back to her South American country. It was an incredibly stressful process to go through and I can't imagine going through that with only 10-days. The prices of (the VERY FEW) available flights fluctuated greatly! 

Talk about making a sucky situation even worse... how does this administration so constantly get it wrong? The sheer financial impact of this alone!! (Excluding the emotional & logistical difficulties...). I think "draining the swamp" is being spread to destroying even the GOOD parts of the American education system! 🤯 (and a strong international population is definitely one of the GREAT parts of our system!!)

Edited by easypeasy
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56 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

how does this administration so constantly get it wrong? 

 

They're not getting it wrong.  Their goals are to (1) get rid of foreign students; (2) undermine the financial stability of colleges and universities; and (3) as RootAnn said, put pressure on institutions to reopen in person.  From that perspective, this policy is a win-win-win.  

As a a bonus, this foments more tension between faculty scared of getting sick and administrators scared of bankruptcy.

As the journalist Adam Serwer noted a couple of years ago, the cruelty is the point.

 

 

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I read this last night. Visa Fraud is a Federal Crime. At the least, anyone involved in that would probably be sent to their Passport country and banned for 10+ years from reentering the USA.  This is the URL:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/berkeley-officials-say-theyre-planning-fraudulent-courses-to-circumvent-ice-rules-that-could-lead-to-student-deportations

I read some of the threads in the sub Reddit for UNC. Someone posted this thread and included the text of an email that was apparently sent to  International Students at UNC yesterday. This is the URL:

 

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2 hours ago, JennyD said:

 

They're not getting it wrong.  Their goals are to (1) get rid of foreign students; (2) undermine the financial stability of colleges and universities; and (3) as RootAnn said, put pressure on institutions to reopen in person.  From that perspective, this policy is a win-win-win.  

As a a bonus, this foments more tension between faculty scared of getting sick and administrators scared of bankruptcy.

As the journalist Adam Serwer noted a couple of years ago, the cruelty is the point.

 

 

Right. 
and if you overstay your visa your chances of being granted one to return are pretty much nil. Embassies abroad already exercise absolute  discretion which can be arbitrary and that’s with a “good” administration in DC.  Imagine being empowered by these people. 

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Harvard and MIT have filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction against these new rules.

The legal basis for the lawsuit is that the ICE rules violate the Administrative Procedure Act's prohibition on "arbitrary and capricious" agency action.  These are the same grounds on which the Trump administration lost its Supreme Court cases on DACA and the census.  Other administrations generally win about 70% of these kinds of cases, but this administration has lost around 90%, even with a increasingly conservative federal judiciary.

So, good chance that the injunction will be granted.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Harvard and MIT have filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction against these new rules.

The legal basis for the lawsuit is that the ICE rules violate the Administrative Procedure Act's prohibition on "arbitrary and capricious" agency action.  These are the same grounds on which the Trump administration lost its Supreme Court cases on DACA and the census.  Other administrations generally win about 70% of these kinds of cases, but this administration has lost around 90%, even with a increasingly conservative federal judiciary.

So, good chance that the injunction will be granted.

What I came in to post.

I'm absolutely appalled by this. We don't have a large international population where I am now, but we had a huge population at my last school. To NOT make an exception for people who were enrolled pre-pandemic to be continuing instruction at the same college is unconscionable.

Juniors and especially seniors can't just pop off to another college that's expecting to be in-person, then transfer again if the pandemic builds at their current location. Furthermore, trying to have people frantically transfer mid-semester because the pandemic has gotten worse in their area is likely to lead to them taking the disease with them to wherever they go; nobody would admit them!

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15 minutes ago, kiana said:

What I came in to post.

I'm absolutely appalled by this. We don't have a large international population where I am now, but we had a huge population at my last school. To NOT make an exception for people who were enrolled pre-pandemic to be continuing instruction at the same college is unconscionable.

Juniors and especially seniors can't just pop off to another college that's expecting to be in-person, then transfer again if the pandemic builds at their current location. Furthermore, trying to have people frantically transfer mid-semester because the pandemic has gotten worse in their area is likely to lead to them taking the disease with them to wherever they go; nobody would admit them!

Besides, you can't just transfer mid-semester,  even in normal times. Not to mention majors and coursework don't line up at all. And the application to transfer process at any school takes waaay longer than 10 days.  But that's all kind of moot, since mid-semester transfer has never been a thing!  

Next they're going to tell them that they should just be swimming back home...

Even if this gets fixed for current students (our state AG is also suing), what international student is going to want to come to the US going forward?  Scorched earth, indeed... 😡

Edited by Matryoshka
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2 hours ago, Lanny said:

This is the URL:

 

So the students have to ensure they find a university that isn't entirely online, but the US gov't also needs to confirm and issue visas by August 4. So if the gov't is slow issuing the visas and students don't receive them by Aug 4, those students who would otherwise be allowed to remain will still be guilty of being in the US without a visa and will be subject to deportation. Can the US process that many visas in just 4 weeks? Am I understanding that correctly?

Edited by wilrunner
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