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American Heritage Girls - how conservative & rah rah Americanism?

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A friend recommended AHG for DD. The troop is at a Catholic church. 

I'm not sure it would be a good fit for us. 

Does AHG teach American exceptionalism? Is it very conservative? 

 

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One at a Catholic Church is likely less cray-cray than some others. We left ours after hearing multiple leaders discussing black history month in a racist way. 

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13 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

One at a Catholic Church is likely less cray-cray than some others. 

We found that to be the case when ds was in Cub Scouts too.

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Varies troop to troop, as BSA troops do. Each one has a personality, just like a church within a denomination. Can be influenced by the chartering org, but not necessarily. Yes, conservative generally. Read the website.

Ours is more about outdoor skills, girl leadership and basic Christian values, but others in my area have a different vibe. My troop runs the basic program without lots of the (imo cheesy) extra Christian fluff. 

With regard to badgework, new, heavily revised books come out in August. Read the Heritage frontier badges to see if the content is a fit for you.

With CV preventing most regular, indoor meetings for many troops, this is going to be a weird year! I am a Troop Coordinator and we are scrambling to adapt and plan  with a zillion unknowns. 

Edited by ScoutTN
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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

One at a Catholic Church is likely less cray-cray than some others. We left ours after hearing multiple leaders discussing black history month in a racist way. 

What does cray-cray mean?

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14 minutes ago, katilac said:

Well . . . l-kMSxsA_2000x.jpg?v=1591909325

That's just a normal bow where I'm from! 🤣

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1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

What does cray-cray mean?

Extremist in views. 

Catholic Churches, for whatever else you want to say about them, tend to have a mix of ethnicities, socio-economic levels, political beliefs, etc. So less likely to be extreme in any particular thing, as they have a diverse, broad base. 

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36 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Extremist in views. 

Catholic Churches, for whatever else you want to say about them, tend to have a mix of ethnicities, socio-economic levels, political beliefs, etc. So less likely to be extreme in any particular thing, as they have a diverse, broad base. 

I've always used and heard "Cray-cray" for "crazy".   Not extremist.  That's weird.

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We left it after one year. I found it conservative, but not over the top until they decided that it was inappropriate for a mom (or any adult woman) to use the restroom if any girls were using it. The kids had to find a separate restroom because it wasn't safe to go into one if a troop leader or another girl's mom was in there.  This was during a mother  daughter event. I heard other things that leaned extreme after we left. 

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38 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Extremist in views. 

Catholic Churches, for whatever else you want to say about them, tend to have a mix of ethnicities, socio-economic levels, political beliefs, etc. So less likely to be extreme in any particular thing, as they have a diverse, broad base. 

That is definitely not the case for most of the Catholic churches in my area!

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6 minutes ago, Izzybizzy said:

We left it after one year. I found it conservative, but not over the top until they decided that it was inappropriate for a mom (or any adult woman) to use the restroom if any girls were using it. The kids had to find a separate restroom because it wasn't safe to go into one if a troop leader or another girl's mom was in there.  This was during a mother  daughter event. I heard other things that leaned extreme after we left. 

I'm about a liberal as they come.  I don't have daughters, so I didn't have to make a choice about AHG, but I doubt I'd be OK with it.

But having adults and kids use separate restrooms is child protection 101.  

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3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I'm about a liberal as they come.  I don't have daughters, so I didn't have to make a choice about AHG, but I doubt I'd be OK with it.

But having adults and kids use separate restrooms is child protection 101.  

My kids are grown, so it's been a while, but I never ran into this in any organization. There was pretty frequently just one bathroom (with multiple stalls) at various venues. What's the protocol in that case? 

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1 minute ago, katilac said:

My kids are grown, so it's been a while, but I never ran into this in any organization. There was pretty frequently just one bathroom (with multiple stalls) at various venues. What's the protocol in that case? 

That adults wait until there are no kids in the bathroom, and then kids stay out until the adult is done.  

More realistically, in that kind of circumstances, adults gobe fore the event.

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2 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

That adults wait until there are no kids in the bathroom, and then kids stay out until the adult is done.  

More realistically, in that kind of circumstances, adults gobe fore the event.

But . . . there are stalls. Are you calling out to see who is in the bathroom before you go in? 

It would have to be a pretty short event for women of a certain age to just go beforehand 😄

 

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Just now, katilac said:

But . . . there are stalls. Are you calling out to see who is in the bathroom before you go in? 

If need be.  It really depends on the event. 

Most organizations have a policy against an adult being in a room with just one child, unless you're visible (e.g. from a door with a window or something.  I'm a public school teacher, and that's our rule.  I'm also involved in various ministries with kids in our church, and that's the policy there and at the parish school my kids attended.  If you're in stalls, then you aren't visible from the door.  

If I'm in a public place, with bathrooms that have a lot of people in and out, such as on a school field trip, then I'll go in with a bunch of girls and remind them to stay at the sinks when they are done, until everybody is done, and then leave together.  It's a good practice anyway, so it's a chance to practice it.  

I'm a big believer in making child protection policies visible for kids.  I work with kids with ID, and the best protection we can give our kids is to reinforce the messages in their gut that tell them "this isn't right".  So, even though I know that the kids would be safe in the bathroom with me (because I know I'm not a child molester), I also want them to know that being alone in the bathroom with a kid isn't something that teachers do, so that if another adult asks them to do it, they will think to speak up.  So, if I'm calling to the girls, or whatever, I'm reinforcing that knowledge that trustworthy adults don't put themselves in positions where they are alone in a room with a child. 

Just now, katilac said:

It would have to be a pretty short event for women of a certain age to just go beforehand 😄

 

True,  I guess I was thinking of things like scout meetings, which are an hour or two here.  

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I just had an awful memory surface. In elementary school, the girls bathroom (I assume the boys' as well, though I don't recall ever being in there) had three toilets, one sink, no stalls. The toilets were just in a line, all open. There was just this one bathroom for the whole school, 1st - 8th grade. 

It was horrible. I tried to always go during class, so there would hopefully be no one else in there. *Never* did I do more than pee, I waited until I got home. 

Somewhere around 4th or 5th grade I think, they installed stalls around the toilets. It was great.

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3 minutes ago, Jentrovert said:

I just had an awful memory surface. In elementary school, the girls bathroom (I assume the boys' as well, though I don't recall ever being in there) had three toilets, one sink, no stalls. The toilets were just in a line, all open. There was just this one bathroom for the whole school, 1st - 8th grade. 

It was horrible. I tried to always go during class, so there would hopefully be no one else in there. *Never* did I do more than pee, I waited until I got home. 

Somewhere around 4th or 5th grade I think, they installed stalls around the toilets. It was great.

I have a recurring dream bordering on nightmare like this.

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2 minutes ago, xahm said:

I have a recurring dream bordering on nightmare like this.

I really do not know how the teachers handled it, or the older girls. I clearly remember one teacher changing a sanitary napkin (my eyes were averted, but I knew the sound). And this was an old school, it had been like that for years and years. 

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Just now, Jentrovert said:

I really do not know how the teachers handled it, or the older girls. I clearly remember one teacher changing a sanitary napkin (my eyes were averted, but I knew the sound). And this was an old school, it had been like that for years and years. 

Wait, adults too?

I worked a few summers as a camp counselor at a preschool that was like that, although in preschool it makes more sense, but the teachers and counselors had a separate bathroom, which was good because the toilets in that one, besides having no privacy, were like 12 inches high.

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7 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Wait, adults too?

I worked a few summers as a camp counselor at a preschool that was like that, although in preschool it makes more sense, but the teachers and counselors had a separate bathroom, which was good because the toilets in that one, besides having no privacy, were like 12 inches high.

Yep, everyone. 

Eta: This would have been in the mid-eighties, and the school was old enough that my mom went there. She's in her 70's now.

Edited by Jentrovert

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The preschool my daughter went to in France had one big open room with a walk about 4 feet high in the middle separating the girl's area from the boy's. The toilets were all open to each other, but there were stalls for the teachers. There may have been low dividers between the toilets, but I don't remember. This school served ages 2-5ish, so teachers had to be able to monitor everyone. I'm not sure if the older kids found it uncomfortable, but my 3 year old didn't care.

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56 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

That is definitely not the case for most of the Catholic churches in my area!

It would definitely depend on the Catholic Church. Mine is just like the first one mentioned; socially/economically/racially diverse. So they do tend to a more open message. But if the catholic church you're talking about is less diverse (like the one close to my house) it would lead to bubble mentality 😉 Everyone thinks the same.

We also require adults to use separate bathrooms from kids....I'm Catholic so for obvious reasons we are VERY strict about these type of things. They usually sign the various bathrooms prior to events and everyone is directed to the appropriate bathrooms. It's a pain sometimes (my bathroom when I teach is way on the other side of campus...grrr) but I appreciate that they are wanting to go above and beyond considering our history.

Edited by PerfectFifth
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1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

I've always used and heard "Cray-cray" for "crazy".   Not extremist.  That's weird.

Crazy was sort of what I thought it meant, but it didn’t seem to fit in the example so I was thinking I was too old and missed some new definition.  It has happened to me before 😉

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2 hours ago, Izzybizzy said:

We left it after one year. I found it conservative, but not over the top until they decided that it was inappropriate for a mom (or any adult woman) to use the restroom if any girls were using it. The kids had to find a separate restroom because it wasn't safe to go into one if a troop leader or another girl's mom was in there.  This was during a mother  daughter event. I heard other things that leaned extreme after we left. 

Adults using separate restroom facilities (when available) is pretty standard youth/child protection protocol nationwide. Not unique to AHG. Two deep leadership also common to all scouting programs. 

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2 hours ago, xahm said:

The preschool my daughter went to in France had one big open room with a walk about 4 feet high in the middle separating the girl's area from the boy's. The toilets were all open to each other, but there were stalls for the teachers. There may have been low dividers between the toilets, but I don't remember. This school served ages 2-5ish, so teachers had to be able to monitor everyone. I'm not sure if the older kids found it uncomfortable, but my 3 year old didn't care.

I have visited preschools that had a bathrooms accessible and visible to the classroom that were just 2 or 3 toilets with sinks, but I have seen them used for toddler classrooms for 1-3 year olds.  Even by prek ages, I think that would be uncomfortable, but I recall thinking it was kinda brilliant for toilet training children.  

When I was in kindergarten in the 80's, there was a bathroom between the two kindergarten classes, and the teacher would take all the girls in a line into the bathroom and we'd all use the bathroom in front of everyone.  Then she'd take the boys all together.  

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OP,  Our troop is fairly conservative theologically, but has a broader spread politically. Plenty of conservative Christians dislike the president and have well-informed, nuanced understanding of American history. We do NOT discuss politics.

We serve veterans in multiple ways and recognize patriotic holidays by placing flags, marching in parades etc. Our uniforms are red, white, and blue. Part of the AHG oath is to "honor my country". Our highest award, similar to BSA Eagle or GS Gold, is the Stars and Stripes. High school age AHG girls are in the Patriot unit.

We have badges about the flag, the Constitution, the US military, early American history, and citizenship and government. 

AHG is unabashedly pro-life. 

And yet these things are not really what AHG is about, despite it's name. 

It's a Christian scouting and leadership development program. And very fun. And a sweet community. And a chance for girls to learn and try new things. My daughter has taken risks and had adventures, learned new skills, made wonderful friends, served our community, and grown in her ability to be a good leader All in a context of the Christian gospel with wonderful girls and women as mentors to help her.

Edited by ScoutTN
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2 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Crazy was sort of what I thought it meant, but it didn’t seem to fit in the example so I was thinking I was too old and missed some new definition.  It has happened to me before 😉

I think it the context it meant crazy (probably extreme) views and ideas.  It is not after all used for someone who has a mental illness.

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The "no adults with kids in bathrooms" is standard for youth protection now. It's something we have to look into with our new enrichment program. Fortunately, right now it looks like each bathroom is separate. The last big Scout thing we went to in a big enough church to have stalls in bathrooms announced which were for the adults and which for the kids. My last Scout thing in an LDS church I waited until the girls left the bathroom. Of course, BSA is no longer in LDS churches. 

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12 hours ago, PrincessMommy said:

I've always used and heard "Cray-cray" for "crazy".   Not extremist.  That's weird.

Sorry. I meant cray-crazy as slang for crazy/weird/bizarre. But in reference to extremism or anything else a bit weird. 

12 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

That is definitely not the case for most of the Catholic churches in my area!

Interesting! The Catholic Churches in Florida tend to be the most diverse of any denomination. At any Catholic church on Sunday you will see the country club members with their designer clothes in the pews along with the blu collar workers still in their work clothes. The sight of a large man in paint stained coveralls kneeling on the fancy  marble floor in the back of the  church as he'd gotten there too late to get a seat in a pew is seared on my brain...made me wish I could paint or draw as he was so devout, it was incredible. 

Masses are said in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Filipino, Korean, and Creole in the area, reflecting just some of the various ethnicities served. I think there is also one in Polish? When I was received into the church at an Easter Vigil we had multiple choirs from services that served different ethnicity with hymns in 6 different languages (one being Latin) plus African drumming. 

And the church as a whole in the US is pretty much a 50-50 split between Republican/Democrat, at least regarding how voting went last time around. 

11 hours ago, xahm said:

I have a recurring dream bordering on nightmare like this.

Me too. I read somewhere that dreams about toileting in public have to do with a fear of having insecurities exposed? I also have lots of dreams about dirty bathrooms and having to use them, not sure what that's about. 

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

I think it the context it meant crazy (probably extreme) views and ideas.  It is not after all used for someone who has a mental illness.

yes. 

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8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Sorry. I meant cray-crazy as slang for crazy/weird/bizarre. But in reference to extremism or anything else a bit weird. 

Interesting! The Catholic Churches in Florida tend to be the most diverse of any denomination. At any Catholic church on Sunday you will see the country club members with their designer clothes in the pews along with the blu collar workers still in their work clothes. The sight of a large man in paint stained coveralls kneeling on the fancy  marble floor in the back of the  church as he'd gotten there too late to get a seat in a pew is seared on my brain...made me wish I could paint or draw as he was so devout, it was incredible. 

Masses are said in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Filipino, Korean, and Creole in the area, reflecting just some of the various ethnicities served. I think there is also one in Polish? When I was received into the church at an Easter Vigil we had multiple choirs from services that served different ethnicity with hymns in 6 different languages (one being Latin) plus African drumming. 

And the church as a whole in the US is pretty much a 50-50 split between Republican/Democrat, at least regarding how voting went last time around. 

Me too. I read somewhere that dreams about toileting in public have to do with a fear of having insecurities exposed? I also have lots of dreams about dirty bathrooms and having to use them, not sure what that's about. 

yes. 

This was our experience. We converted to Catholicism when we lived in FL and we absolutely loved our parish. When we moved to the Midwest we couldn’t believe how different every single Catholic Church was from ours in FL. We attend an Episcopal church here because the Catholic ones are just way too much for us.

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5 minutes ago, Joker said:

This was our experience. We converted to Catholicism when we lived in FL and we absolutely loved our parish. When we moved to the Midwest we couldn’t believe how different every single Catholic Church was from ours in FL. We attend an Episcopal church here because the Catholic ones are just way too much for us.

Interesting! And in Florida, so many Episcopal churches are the least diverse - particularly regarding socioeconomic status. Mine is not quite as bad as some.....but a lot are a gathering spot for the country club crowd to discuss their spring ski trips to europe, etc, and then you have a few in each diocese that are super duper crunchy granola liberal. Mine is an interesting mix - it is in a liberal hipster favoring neighborhood, but one that is quite expensive (I'd love to live there but a smaller, older house with one bathroom would cost twice what mine does). We do have some diversity, and probably one of the bigger blends of liberal/conservative I've seen in an Episcopal church, but it's the only one I know quite like that. 

Probably I bet the difference is size/number of parishes? So there are a bunch of smaller Episcopal parishes around here, so people can sort themselves into like minded groups - one church has all the Winter Park elite, another is the bleeding heart liberal one that marches in the Pride parade every year, etc. The Catholic parishes are fewer and far between, and huge, so all the various groups just attend together. 

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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I also have lots of dreams about dirty bathrooms and having to use them, not sure what that's about. 

Me too. For me it's an OCD thing.

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10 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

OP,  Our troop is fairly conservative theologically, but has a broader spread politically. Plenty of conservative Christians dislike the president and have well-informed, nuanced understanding of American history. We do NOT discuss politics.

We serve veterans in multiple ways and recognize patriotic holidays by placing flags, marching in parades etc. Our uniforms are red, white, and blue. Part of the AHG oath is to "honor my country". Our highest award, similar to BSA Eagle or GS Gold, is the Stars and Stripes. High school age AHG girls are in the Patriot unit.

We have badges about the flag, the Constitution, the US military, early American history, and citizenship and government. 

AHG is unabashedly pro-life. 

And yet these things are not really what AHG is about, despite it's name. 

It's a Christian scouting and leadership development program. And very fun. And a sweet community. And a chance for girls to learn and try new things. My daughter has taken risks and had adventures, learned new skills, made wonderful friends, served our community, and grown in her ability to be a good leader All in a context of the Christian gospel with wonderful girls and women as mentors to help her.

My post last night disappeared when my iPad lost charge, but I would agree with this completely.  AHG is conservative, it is pro-American, but it is not school and is not out to teach American history.  I am sure we have all sorts of political viewpoints among parents (Catholics aren’t universally one party) and I know we have all sorts of economic backgrounds (I was troop treasurer for 7 years), but those old etiquette rules about not discussing money or politics seem to be followed pretty well.  I would say regardless of politics our families do attend Mass weekly.  We are a fairly even split of homeschool and public school with one private school family with three or four Spanish speaking families.  We have been in our troop since my daughter was in first grade and she is currently fundraising for her Stars and Stripes project - yea!  It has been a very good social and growth outlet for my daughter.

On the Catholic troop front, being Catholic (or not offended by Catholic practices like making the sign of the cross before prayers or saying a Hail Mary) is important.  We have had several non- Catholics in our troop over the years that did well, but we are up front that we are a Catholic troop.  Here in the mid-west, the larger Catholic parishes with schools are still dominated my Girl Scouts so a Catholic AHG troop is a bit of an anomaly.  Because of that I think we pull from a broader geographical area because for many years we were the only Catholic troop in the state outside of a couple closed (school only) troops.  I would be hesitant to attend a troop exclusively tied to a school or a really tight knit church (Catholic or otherwise) because it can be very hard to break into those social circles.  As for the books, they needed updating, but I haven’t seen them. It does seem that they have eliminated some of the cutesy titles in favor of something more descriptive of the actual badge content.  There are religious awards associated with the optional level awards.  AHG has recently written their own and I have seen one of the Catholic levels from a distance.  Few people I know in AHG or otherwise have been fans of the girls Catholic scouting religious awards so I assume it will be an improvement   I can’t speak to Protestant awards, but you can earn either version regardless of the religious affiliation of your troop.  We complete our religious awards outside of troop meetings.
 

Hope that helps.  As others have said, you really need to visit the troop in question to get the vibe of those attending.

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14 hours ago, Paige said:

That's just a normal bow where I'm from! 🤣

Yes! It's actually a JoJo bow, made for American Heritage Girls. 

I have seen JoJo Siwa in concert and I LIKED it. You have never in your life seen so many big bows in one place. She's a very positive person with very positive lyrics. 👍

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1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Yes! It's actually a JoJo bow, made for American Heritage Girls. 

I have seen JoJo Siwa in concert and I LIKED it. You have never in your life seen so many big bows in one place. She's a very positive person with very positive lyrics. 👍

Oh, I attended Baylor in the early 90s.  The girls weren’t referred to as Baylor Bowheads for nothing 🙂

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19 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

One at a Catholic Church is likely less cray-cray than some others. We left ours after hearing multiple leaders discussing black history month in a racist way. 

Let's be specific though - this could have happened at a scout troop, a public school PTA meeting, or a garage sale down the block.  This was specific to some leaders in a group rather than specific to AHG.  I just want to make this clarification.

15 hours ago, Izzybizzy said:

We left it after one year. I found it conservative, but not over the top until they decided that it was inappropriate for a mom (or any adult woman) to use the restroom if any girls were using it. The kids had to find a separate restroom because it wasn't safe to go into one if a troop leader or another girl's mom was in there.  This was during a mother  daughter event. I heard other things that leaned extreme after we left. 

I would say it is conservative not iffy-conservative - traditional Judeo Christian values and seeking and allowing leaders who conform to specific expectations, active prayer life, etc.  I'm a (new) Troop Coordinator a newly created AHG group and while I am only slightly more aware of what they stand for the average Christian homeschooling mom at this point, I would not say they were neutral or barely conservative, though obviously there is going to be leader input and they are seeking leaders who are decidedly pro Christian and pro America.

However, years of experience in Scouts (ds is an Eagle) anything less than two deep leadership is necessary in both Scouts and in AHG/Trail Life.  There have been hundreds of cases where pedophiles have chosen troops to facilitate abuse.  Why would any parent want/allow an adult alone in the bathroom with a child in this day and age with our awareness of the wrongs that have been perpetrated? Scouts have done background checks for years and it didn't stop the abuse.  No, two deep leadership always. 

15 hours ago, katilac said:

But . . . there are stalls. Are you calling out to see who is in the bathroom before you go in? 

It would have to be a pretty short event for women of a certain age to just go beforehand 😄

 


A person bent on perpetrating abuse is stopped by a stall? Or a law? Or inconvenience? It's not just bathrooms - it's anywhere, but I should think especially when children are vulnerable and I'd say asleep or unclothed most certainly meets those qualifications.  Kids are vulnerable.

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1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

A person bent on perpetrating abuse is stopped by a stall? Or a law? Or inconvenience? It's not just bathrooms - it's anywhere, but I should think especially when children are vulnerable and I'd say asleep or unclothed most certainly meets those qualifications.  Kids are vulnerable.

Did I say a person bent on perpetrating abuse is stopped by a stall? No, I did not. I think you read a little too fast.

I was not arguing against the rule, I was asking her how it worked in real life. I said there were stalls and asked if they called out to see who was in the bathroom before they entered (because you cannot see through a stall door to know if it's a child or an adult). I think it was pretty clear that I wasn't saying, 'there are stalls, so how could anything bad possibly happen?' but here's my extra clarification, lol. 

As I'd not heard of the rule yet, I wasn't in a position to argue for or against it. I asked for more information: the general protocol and then specifically about stalls. 

Edited by katilac

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I didn't disagree with the rule generally regarding the bathroom especially during meetings with no parents around. I just found it odd when it was the moms with their daughters together at this event. I don't know how it was handled as I made sure I didn't use the restroom.  As others have said, it was probably mandated just not communicated that way so it took us by surprise. 

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18 hours ago, katilac said:

Well . . . l-kMSxsA_2000x.jpg?v=1591909325

Bow heads. You’d think that would have died down after all these years. Really, when the bow is larger or outweighs the head....

0D1F5650-342C-4E2B-9926-8F9B9E9AC041.jpeg

Edited by Dotwithaperiod
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About the bathroom - I don't believe it's a general rule that adults can't use the same bathrooms as kids.  I've read the rules as recently as last summer and they don't say that at all.  They do require minors to go in pairs, which I hate but yeah, it's "child protection 101."  An adult isn't allowed to take someone else's kid to the bathroom.  Again, that's modern "child protection 101" even though I hate it.

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I should clarify I don't have a problem with the organization - it was with the group/adults sponsoring it. 

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My thoughts on AHG - I don't think it's "too conservative" for young kids up to about middle school.  There is nothing wrong with patriotism IMO.  They don't put down other cultures (they have lots of activities to promote cultural understanding, helping kids in poor countries, etc.).  They do not exclude any race, culture, etc. as a policy.  Of course you can always run across ignorant people in any organization, but I have not seen that in my personal experience with AHG.

We just left AHG, and one of my reasons is their position on homosexuality.  This is never mentioned in front of the girls, but parents are encouraged to be leaders, and they have to at least be aware of this.  And as the girls get to high school age, I am sure they eventually become aware of the organization's positions.  Personally I don't support attitudes that treat gay people differently from anyone else (as I've told my kids).  So for me/us, this would be a barrier to completing the higher level awards.  Not that we were doing or saying anything against gay people in our troop or ever would ... I just couldn't honestly support that part of the founding philosophy.  I hope this makes sense.

I chose AHG over Girl Scouts when my kids were 7.  It was a good organization for elementary school age.  At that time, Scouts BSA was not an option, or I probably would have gone with them.

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