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kand

Could some mask-refusers explain?

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I don't know anybody irl who refuses to wear a mask.

I know people who think it's unnecessary for a variety of reasons. I know people who think it's uncomfortable and anxiety inducing. I know people who think it hampers communication and has a detrimental effect on our social lives. I know people who think requiring it is government over-reach. But they all still do it. Kicking and screaming and complaining about it on social media, perhaps ... but they do it.

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3 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Would you fly in an airplane now without a mask?  It seems most airlines request it but don't require it.

Well, I have no place to go in an airplane.  Plus, trying to get somewhere with my whole family by plane is way to expensive.  So I suppose that my answer is that I would have to have a *REALLY* good reason to be on the plane in the first place.  I am struggling to imagine a situation where it would be required.  

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13 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I think I misunderstood.

 

Just curious, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, I am curious about the extent of your interactions with the pubic?  I am only asking because, with so many things still shut down, I am struggling to imagine what else other folks are doing that has them out of the house so often.  

I’m not out in public often.  Nonetheless,  I do wear high level diy personal protection when I am out.

And less, but some, for short interactions with the “public” while home. (Delivery people, a repairperson who needed to come, a notary, neighbors, etc.) 

 

13 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, it's also important to remember that those 1000 cases are total.....not total active, but total overall.  Of those, some have unfortunately passed away, but most of them who were tested earlier are already recovered and no longer contagious

. And, mom doesn't go to church, no weddings, graduations etc.  

 

Right. Well, I figure for each case known there’s likely another 1 or 2  not known, not in hospital, not isolating. So I’d still tend to figure on 1000 walking contagious.  One could say if she meets 8-10 people per week that her chances are more like 8-10/600 (or 1/75 to 1/60) of an encounter with a CV19 positive person each week, but since you said her time in such encounters are brief, I left it at 1/600.  But it still depends on a lot. If, for example, the person in the encounter who was CV19 positive were wearing a mask, then she would be less likely to get it. IMO. 

I think the accidental but real world experiment that happened with the Missouri hairdressers where double masking (hairdresser and client) seems to have led to zero transmission is very persuasive. 

Edited by Pen
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17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I think I misunderstood.

 

Just curious, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, I am curious about the extent of your interactions with the pubic?  I am only asking because, with so many things still shut down, I am struggling to imagine what else other folks are doing that has them out of the house so often.  

 

In my area nothing is really shut down. And we have the spike in cases to prove it. 

I've been nowhere in the past few weeks. My husband has been to the local Sam's where he can do the scan and go with his phone and avoid people if he times it right, but most are not masked now. The only grocery store that requires masks is Costco, and I need stuff from other places. My kids and I all need shoes - I found some online because only one place ( a small running store) is requiring masks. Mine don't work, so I'll be having to go there. Thankfully DD's from amazon did work out. DS's come on Friday. I've picked up our regular medication (it isn't something we can get mail order) using the drive up pharmacy. DH returned library books for me - have to go inside to do it. And we have both been to the hardware store for various plumbing parts/etc. 

Anyone of those places could lead to exposure. Plus my son is working outside the home, at a vet clinic. 

But it doesn't ahve to be often or much to be exposed. If wearing a mask helps prevent spread, as the evidence seems to say, than it seems only reasonable that I'd wear it. And I am really annoyed more places don't require it, so I'd feel safer going to say, the grocery store, or to a larger shoe store, rather than relying on delivery that tends to be hit or miss. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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I have ptsd from an emergency csection. I have tried to wear a mask but end up hyperventilating. I end up with bad claustrophobia and can feel intense pressure on my face. I just can’t stand anything around my face. Going to the dentist is torture. I also have chronic health issues, including a new lupus dx. I know I need to figure out how to wear a mask   I have tried disposable ones, two different types of handmade masks, plus a buff. I actually feel like I am being judged for not wearing a mask! I want to wear one. 
Part of my health issues, I am losing my hearing. I cannot understand people talking with a mask on. 
 

As an aside, I have yet to see anyone wear one properly, including the lab tech who took my last round of labs. 

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23 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I do wonder - do they think healthcare workers shouldn't wear masks for that reason? Surgeons? Etc? What bacteria do they think will grow in there that wasn't already in their body? I mean, they are exhaling, and yes, bacteria from their mouth might like to grow in a warm moist environment...but their mouth is already a warm, moist environment...so not wearing a mask wouldn't deprive it of a place to live?

just an observation on facebook

No, i'm in the same camp as whomever said, "thank you for wearing it even if you don't believe it works". Because I DO believe it helps (not perfect, but helps) based on the evidence and studies I've seen so far. You can think whatever you want, as long as you cover your mouth and nose 🙂

Just because you saw it on Facebook doesn’t negate that it is quite a leap to tie dislike of masks to covering up during nursing

I hate masks and I only wear them when required.  You keep mentioning studies, but I haven’t seen any saying that cloth masks in all their many ill fitting variations actually do anything for anyone.  Comparing homemade cloth masks to what doctors use is hardly a real comparison.  Theirs fit, theirs are made of tested material, and before Covid they were wearing them in very specific circumstances.  Even if cloth blocked something, almost NONE of them fit and all the cloth masks are made of wildly varying materials that do not have the same filtering properties, so there is no way anything regarding cloth masks can have a true scientific study behind it.  There is too much variation in how they are implemented.  I would be tempted to say that the I am smarter than you, I have read “studies” attitude espoused by those look down upon those who don’t wear masks as stupid, ignorant people is a huge component of why many refuse to wear them.  I believe the virus is real, but these masks have just become another way to try to shame people on either side when they don’t agree with you. 

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I know some mask refusers IRL though my family has been wearing masks from times before it was mandated in my area. The refusers that I know of say that the virus is just the flu and the media is taking this fake story and making it huge and that their immune systems will kick it out of their body in a couple of days! They seem to think that hand sanitizer is all that is needed to deal with this virus. They also argue that none of us stay home from work or school because of the flu and hence it is overkill to do so for this virus.

It is noteworthy that the people saying this to me are all over 65 years of age and with pre-existing health conditions like stroke, high BP and diabetes. They also refuse to wear a mask when interacting with others (e.g. being indoors with non-family members for extended periods of time) and hence I am socially distancing from them.

One of them who is younger got special permission to go into work every day because working from home was making her bored and was granted permission to come into work from July 1st even though their company asked all employees to stay home until december. Her reasons for refusal are political. She says that there are very few people at her workplace, so she will not wear masks even though it is offered for free by the employer.

Edited by mathnerd
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22 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, I have no place to go in an airplane.  Plus, trying to get somewhere with my whole family by plane is way to expensive.  So I suppose that my answer is that I would have to have a *REALLY* good reason to be on the plane in the first place.  I am struggling to imagine a situation where it would be required.  

I guess my question isn't "Do you want to fly right now?"  It's:  If you did fly right now, if you had to, perhaps because of an unexpected emergency, would you wear a mask?  (It's not a trick question...  It sounds like masking is not required on airlines, even though they request it.)

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6 hours ago, kand said:

 I can’t figure out what would be morally wrong about wearing a mask, and it seems it might help if we can first understand it. 

Without having read any responses here—just your question—around here/within my circles the moral argument against it goes something like this:

”I’m not wearing a mask because the government is telling us we have to. Newsflash—this is America—and I can do what I want!  They can’t tell me that I have to go out in public with a mask on my face!  To prove how in to Personal Liberty I am, I will not be wearing one of those fascist face masks.”

Said people then go about demonizing them as scary, latching on to any sort of discrepancy in reports of effectiveness, and generally grasping at any sort of idea—including conspiracy theories— that life can instantly go back to normal (which is a coping strategy—it’s scary to accept that there is a pandemic going on and we can’t just make it go away). 

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44 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

Just because you saw it on Facebook doesn’t negate that it is quite a leap to tie dislike of masks to covering up during nursing

I hate masks and I only wear them when required.  You keep mentioning studies, but I haven’t seen any saying that cloth masks in all their many ill fitting variations actually do anything for anyone.  Comparing homemade cloth masks to what doctors use is hardly a real comparison.  Theirs fit, theirs are made of tested material, and before Covid they were wearing them in very specific circumstances.  Even if cloth blocked something, almost NONE of them fit and all the cloth masks are made of wildly varying materials that do not have the same filtering properties, so there is no way anything regarding cloth masks can have a true scientific study behind it.  There is too much variation in how they are implemented.  I would be tempted to say that the I am smarter than you, I have read “studies” attitude espoused by those look down upon those who don’t wear masks as stupid, ignorant people is a huge component of why many refuse to wear them.  I believe the virus is real, but these masks have just become another way to try to shame people on either side when they don’t agree with you. 

There have been several different analysis, experiments, etc. We have a thread on mask effectiveness here in the chat board. Scientists are saying it is likely the very best way to contain the virus. And beyond that, it seems pretty logical that anything over the mouth and nose will at the very least help catch droplets - that's why we sneeze into a handkerchief or tissue if we can, etc. It doesn't have to fit as well as a medical mask if we are trying to block droplets going out, versus filter in like a medical mask. 

This is one of the more recent: http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0emiAdmhOljhEw2I5BSIi5tYqvMC5-hequmhHeOcGGmWDyShaKbZVrma8 It's not proof, but if it is even possible that mask wearing reduces transmission by 40 percent, like they claim, that seems worth trying, anyway. 

Then there is this, which makes the very good point, "The point is not that some particles can penetrate but that some particles are stopped, particularly in the outward direction. Every virus-laden particle retained in a mask is not available to hang in the air as an aerosol or fall to a surface to be later picked up by touch." In other words, it reduces risk. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-2567?fbclid=IwAR2Ge2XYhOJOERSber6CGzqHHEabsmWy-tdggA8Mf13ITq1VFbvro65PUQg#.XtFgQ88t5rk.facebook

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1 hour ago, Mom2mthj said:

I hate masks and I only wear them when required.  You keep mentioning studies, but I haven’t seen any saying that cloth masks in all their many ill fitting variations actually do anything for anyone.  Comparing homemade cloth masks to what doctors use is hardly a real comparison.  Theirs fit, theirs are made of tested material, and before Covid they were wearing them in very specific circumstances.  Even if cloth blocked something, almost NONE of them fit and all the cloth masks are made of wildly varying materials that do not have the same filtering properties, so there is no way anything regarding cloth masks can have a true scientific study behind it.  There is too much variation in how they are implemented.  I would be tempted to say that the I am smarter than you, I have read “studies” attitude espoused by those look down upon those who don’t wear masks as stupid, ignorant people is a huge component of why many refuse to wear them.  I believe the virus is real, but these masks have just become another way to try to shame people on either side when they don’t agree with you. 

There actually are quite a number of studies now indicating cloth masks are looking quite effective at stopping outward transmission. Even mediocre ones, and for those who want to do better than mediocre, they can be even more effective. I’m not going to give you a bunch of references here, because that wasn’t my intention with this thread, and I don’t gather that’s what you’re looking for yourself, anyway. But I am interested in your answer to the question I asked in follow up, about whether you would wear a mask even when not required, if you saw definitive data showing they were very effective in preventing transmission. 

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Well the people in TN do have some reason for doubt. The state health department handed out free  masks which were later recalled because they were sprayed with a pesticide. Since, a great deal of them are coming from overseas it hard to know what is safe. So if you aren’t sure they are really helpful and there is a possibility that they are harmful that may be enough to dissuade you.

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5 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Well the people in TN do have some reason for doubt. The state health department handed out free  masks which were later recalled because they were sprayed with a pesticide. Since, a great deal of them are coming from overseas it hard to know what is safe. So if you aren’t sure they are really helpful and there is a possibility that they are harmful that may be enough to dissuade you.

That's awful!!

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9 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Well the people in TN do have some reason for doubt. The state health department handed out free  masks which were later recalled because they were sprayed with a pesticide. Since, a great deal of them are coming from overseas it hard to know what is safe. So if you aren’t sure they are really helpful and there is a possibility that they are harmful that may be enough to dissuade you.

I had heard about that. That’s pretty awful. Those aren’t the only masks people could wear though, so surely that’s not the main reason for people in TN who don’t wear them?

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It's not like it was roach spray or somehting, it was a typical antimicrobial product used on garments to inhibit bacterial growth and odor. Now, it is usually used on pillowcases, jackets, etc, not face masks, but to be clear it wasn't exactly how the headlines made it sound. 

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16 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Well the people in TN do have some reason for doubt. The state health department handed out free  masks which were later recalled because they were sprayed with a pesticide. Since, a great deal of them are coming from overseas it hard to know what is safe. So if you aren’t sure they are really helpful and there is a possibility that they are harmful that may be enough to dissuade you.

As a person with extreme sensitivity to toxic chemicals I find that very disturbing! 

I am currently preferring to make my own with cloth I can wash myself, or to buy from a probably reputable source!   I don’t trust a lot of overseas sources right now. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 I was specifically asking bout the idea that they are bad because they will grow bacteria. Not the effectivness part. (although if half the people are wearing them wrong, that's still have that are wearing them right, which cuts my risk significantly compared to no one wearing them.)

I had a physician tell me that he thought there was a difference because in the medical setting they are careful about how the mask is handled.  But, when people are wearing a cloth mask, taking it off and setting it down on a table, putting it back on, then pulling it down to take a sip of water, then pulling it back up, he thought there was a much greater chance for the mask to be contaminated with bacteria (not necessarily from the breathing of the individual) that can then easily multiply in a damp, warm environment.

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7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I had a physician tell me that he thought there was a difference because in the medical setting they are careful about how the mask is handled.  But, when people are wearing a cloth mask, taking it off and setting it down on a table, putting it back on, then pulling it down to take a sip of water, then pulling it back up, he thought there was a much greater chance for the mask to be contaminated with bacteria (not necessarily from the breathing of the individual) that can then easily multiply in a damp, warm environment.

Him thinking that doesn’t mean it’s a real problem. Not saying it couldn’t ever happen, but we’ve had millions of people using cloth masks for the past several months, and so far I’ve not seen any reports of this making people sick. At the same time, masks are being credited with likely having prevented thousands of infections by this point. So, while I don’t treat my mask like that (I’ve been made fun of for my mask protocol to keep it and me clean), I’d take the risk of the bacteria over Covid. I mean, not to be crass, but I’m sure some people put condoms on with dirty hands, but doesn’t mean we should stop recommending them for STD prevention. 

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I'm a mask refuser I guess, outside. It's just ridiculous to wear one when I walk for 2 hours and usually see 2 other people! What am I going to infect? The sagebrush? 

I wear one indoors, well, I did. But we have a massive fire down southwest of us, and the whole valley is full of smoke. I wore one for the 2 minutes I was in the coffee shop today, but when I went to the grocery store, I tried. But my asthma is kicking up, and I found myself gasping for breath. Anytime I was in an aisle by myself, I pulled it down. Before today, I managed to get through the grocery, but I just couldn't today. I won't wear one at Scouts this weekend--few people will be, including the police chief! We're outside, and the Scouts will only tent with family members. 

That said, I sewed my 1200th mask this evening. The Navy requires them, so the least I can't do is to make soft ones for my dd's air department! She's styling a cute one with paw prints on it right now. Most of what I've been making lately have been boring khaki, green, and Navy camo. Not near as much fun when I could raid my stash. I'm buying fabric in 20 yard increments now. 

 

eta: of course, that should be 1,200 masks, not 12,000! Oops!

Edited by Margaret in CO
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@happysmileylady - to give you another piece of perspective, my County has about 2/3 the population ~ 385K) of your mother’s county, but only 90, fewer than 1/10, the confirmed cases.   

And on average I am probably encountering ~ the same number of people as your mother, but only every other week. (And that will probably be reduced now that there’s grocery delivery to my rural area, hooray hooray!)

Nonetheless, I most certainly mask, and eye protect when in public.   

😊

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26 minutes ago, Margaret in CO said:

I'm a mask refuser I guess, outside. It's just ridiculous to wear one when I walk for 2 hours and usually see 2 other people! What am I going to infect? The sagebrush? 

That said, I sewed my 1200th mask this evening.

I don’t consider that mask refusal at all. I wouldn’t consider going inside anywhere in public without a mask right now, but I don’t wear one walking on my rural street or on a trail. I would wear it outside if I was going to be close to other people. 
 

And you are amazing with your sewing! 1200!! I’m at a small fraction of that. 

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The people near me that do not wear masks think it interferes with personal liberty and is a symptom of an overreaching, nanny government. They do not trust government or anyone in a position of authority, so evidence from scientists or mathematicians doesn't hold water.  You could give them a study that shows homemade masks were 100% effective and they'd tell you that staying home was 100% effective too, so why don't you do that since you are so scared.  I know some of these people personally, and they are also anti-speed limits, seat belt laws, and car seat laws.  The only reason they comply with those laws is because they don't want to pay a fine.   You won't get them to comply with mask-wearing unless it is a law that comes with a fine for violation. 

Edited by MissLemon
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4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Just curious, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, I am curious about the extent of your interactions with the pubic?  I am only asking because, with so many things still shut down, I am struggling to imagine what else other folks are doing that has them out of the house so often

Lots of people leave their home for their jobs. They work, and when they are indoors in proximity to people,  they mask. That would be five days a week. 

For those in my family who work from home or are retired, there are still:

Grocery shopping, DMV, post office, doctor's appointment, vet, maintenance person coming into apartment, picking up package in the building lobby, public transit

Edited by regentrude
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42 minutes ago, kand said:

I don’t consider that mask refusal at all. I wouldn’t consider going inside anywhere in public without a mask right now, but I don’t wear one walking on my rural street or on a trail. I would wear it outside if I was going to be close to other people. 
 

And you are amazing with your sewing! 1200!! I’m at a small fraction of that. 

So glad you caught that that was supposed to be 1200, NOT 12,000!

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4 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I don't know anybody irl who refuses to wear a mask.

 

I know a number of people who will not. I walk with a lady who will not. She's given up her daily coffee on our walk because of it. Very few people at the Flag Day ceremony were wearing them, including a number of Scouts and families. The Legion and the Elks were not. Heck, the police chief was not! Probably a third of the folks in the grocery today were not. There are a lot of signs up in town on businesses that say something like--the regulations say you have to. We don't care. There is a list on FB of businesses that don't require them. The coffee shop I go to has snarky signs all over about requirements, and the owner was interviewed in the paper saying they require them. However, his employees never are! They always pulled down! It makes me chuckle. I had to go to a different shop down the street yesterday, and I won't be back--not only did I get harassed by the screaming women with signs about BLM, the coffee shop lady FREAKED out when I carried my cup in! Somehow charging me an extra $1 to watch me pour the coffee into MY cup, and then you throw the "dirty" cup out has not kept anyone safe. Plus, I like cream in my coffee. Nope. And the coffee was awful. 

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5 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I do wonder - do they think healthcare workers shouldn't wear masks for that reason? Surgeons? Etc? What bacteria do they think will grow in there that wasn't already in their body? I mean, they are exhaling, and yes, bacteria from their mouth might like to grow in a warm moist environment...but their mouth is already a warm, moist environment...so not wearing a mask wouldn't deprive it of a place to live?

just an observation on facebook

No, i'm in the same camp as whomever said, "thank you for wearing it even if you don't believe it works". Because I DO believe it helps (not perfect, but helps) based on the evidence and studies I've seen so far. You can think whatever you want, as long as you cover your mouth and nose 🙂

I think it’s probably like TMI getting a fungal infection etc in summer from wearing warm moist clothes or socks?  I have read an older science study talking about this though it was a while ago.

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12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I grew up in the 70s. Mask with sunglasses were often used for robberies in my area. For snatch thefts and bank robberies, some use full visor motorcycle helmets. It’s so that store/bank surveillance cameras would not be useful when the robber is masked.

The Hong Kong protestors wore mask to avoid facial recognition. If I wear a mask, I can easily pretend to be any of my similar age cousins and nieces, and make use of their photo ID (not that I would).  

I wear one where required though I do have a harder time breathing if I don’t pull it down now and then. I am not a great rule follower but I don’t want to make life difficult for store staff and healthcare workers. 

We were just having a short vacation at the beach.  I kept taking in my mask and sunglasses mainly because I would forget I was even wearing them since even with sunglasses outside, it was still very bright -  and perfectly bright enough in the store.

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10 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

Some of it may be demographics.  When mask wearing was high here at grocery stores, it was low at Home Depot. Now it's low in grocery stores and almost none at Home Depot. Several people in other states have said that Home Depot is the worst for mask wearing.  Also, more high end grocery stores have higher masking rates. 

Yes, and the areas are different too.  Much more mask wearing in my home area, which has a very well educated population as a whole, versus the beach areas I was just at.  Now the beach itself I would never think anyone would wear a mask, nor at a pool etc.  But grocery stores or other stores?

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10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I don't know. I'm very hesitant to assign poor motivation to people. I think maybe they just have heard enough conflicting information, and haven't seen the most recent evidence supporting it. But i'm an optimist 🙂

I read a good interview with our states Senate Majority Leader and Senate Minority Leader.  I can't remember where the Senate Majority Leader came from but the Senate Minority Leader came from a very predominately black population area.  He was saying that the reason his area is most likely having the big increase is because of poor communication,  His area has very limited broadband so people can't look up stuff easily and lower education and when lots of the restrictions were so-called lifted, he said that many people there thought it meant back to normal.  As it was, many places were allowed to open but with lots of restrictions on numbers of people in the establishment, social distancing, cleaning, and there were and continue to be calls by many people to wear masks.  

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10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I really really really want the "the government is trying to control us" people to start going around naked...so that the government can't tell them they have to wear clothing. 

Also, why does it seem like the same people that think they can't be told to wear a mask are also often the same ones that want women to "cover up" while nursing?

Or are the same jerks who want to control my use of prescribed and used less regularly than prescribed opioid pain pills (I cannot use NSAIDS and Tylenol is completely ineffective except for lowering a fever and I have had a fever once in fifteen years).

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9 hours ago, Excelsior! Academy said:

 

Pretty much what you said.  I have friends in the medical field and have asked them privately and candidly.  They agree with what your friend said.  I wear them when required and though we aren't getting out much, if given the choice I don't wear one.  I do keep my distance and practice good hygiene.  It gets hot here in the summer, as in upwards of 115.  I cannot imagine wearing a mask in that much heat, not that I'm out that much when its 115 anyway.  I have family that have breathing problems.  Masks are very difficult if not dangerous for them to wear.  

Why would you wear them in the heat?  We get hot here too.  I either park really close to door or am dropped off or in the heat, don't put one on until I am ready to go inside which is air conditioned.  I never wear one outside for Covid ( I do for allergies), but I am generally not close to people outside my own family outside either.  Wasn't close on the beach we just came back from nor any of the walks I took there or are now taking.

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8 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I do wonder - do they think healthcare workers shouldn't wear masks for that reason? Surgeons? Etc? What bacteria do they think will grow in there that wasn't already in their body? I mean, they are exhaling, and yes, bacteria from their mouth might like to grow in a warm moist environment...but their mouth is already a warm, moist environment...so not wearing a mask wouldn't deprive it of a place to live?

just an observation on facebook

No, i'm in the same camp as whomever said, "thank you for wearing it even if you don't believe it works". Because I DO believe it helps (not perfect, but helps) based on the evidence and studies I've seen so far. You can think whatever you want, as long as you cover your mouth and nose 🙂

So not a scientific study.  

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9 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

I keep hearing people say that a doctor told them masks are not effective. Do these doctors have some special background where they studied cloth mask effectiveness in medical school? Training in cloth masks? If not, why would they be more of an expert than the scientists publishing the info that they do help? And do the doctors saying this mean they are not effective protecting the wearer, or that they are not effective at containing droplets to protect others? I've had some doctors say some pretty wonky things to me, about topics outside their particular specialty, which is why I don't expect a doctor to be an expert on epidemiology, or PPE, etc other than what they specifically were trained in. And I can't imagine that they were trained on the specifics of homemade cloth masks in med school, you know?

I hear doctors pontificate on all sorts of matters they aren't experts on.  I am always bringing in research reports- sometimes for questions but other times because I just have info that the doctor does not know.

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8 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

I don't know anybody irl who refuses to wear a mask.

I know people who think it's unnecessary for a variety of reasons. I know people who think it's uncomfortable and anxiety inducing. I know people who think it hampers communication and has a detrimental effect on our social lives. I know people who think requiring it is government over-reach. But they all still do it. Kicking and screaming and complaining about it on social media, perhaps ... but they do it.

For all these reasons and more, I do not mask unless required - such as dr's office or music lessons.  Not only do I think it's not very effective, and also government overreach, government has placed the burden of "enforcement" on businesses which I disagree with.  I think we shut down too much and I think we shut down too long and I think we're opening up too slowly.  (Specific to my state).  And I think if my state's governor really cared about life he would not have allowed the abortion clinic to stay open the entire time without any social distancing restrictions (when other elective medical procedures were unavailable) and in fact, since March 1st, our state has lost nearly 3 times as many lives to abortion as Covid.  

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8 hours ago, Mom2mthj said:

Just because you saw it on Facebook doesn’t negate that it is quite a leap to tie dislike of masks to covering up during nursing

I hate masks and I only wear them when required.  You keep mentioning studies, but I haven’t seen any saying that cloth masks in all their many ill fitting variations actually do anything for anyone.  Comparing homemade cloth masks to what doctors use is hardly a real comparison.  Theirs fit, theirs are made of tested material, and before Covid they were wearing them in very specific circumstances.  Even if cloth blocked something, almost NONE of them fit and all the cloth masks are made of wildly varying materials that do not have the same filtering properties, so there is no way anything regarding cloth masks can have a true scientific study behind it.  There is too much variation in how they are implemented.  I would be tempted to say that the I am smarter than you, I have read “studies” attitude espoused by those look down upon those who don’t wear masks as stupid, ignorant people is a huge component of why many refuse to wear them.  I believe the virus is real, but these masks have just become another way to try to shame people on either side when they don’t agree with you. 

We all make judgments all the time, whether we express them to the public or to the person we are judging.  We also can change our judgments too with more exposure or information.   For example, I was  just on a short vacation to the beach.  There were extremely tanned, Caucasian people with leathery sun damaged skin.  One lady, in particular, was a skinny, older, very leathery, incredibly tanned women doing laps on a trail dh and I were walking on observing plants, animals, etc.  It was a one mile loop trail and she lapped us three times.  It was around 11 :30 and while there were some shady areas, there weren't many.  I was thinking how unhealthy she was- too thin (best survival rates are for a bit over so -called BMI normal rates, ie overweight and especially if you get COVID since you tend to lose so much weight), - high risk of skin cancer (and even if not melanoma, who wants to keep getting and being treated for cancer at all)-- and running carries more risks that walking and is not more beneficial for health, especially at her age and especially not in the hot sun.  

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5 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

I'm a mask refuser I guess, outside. It's just ridiculous to wear one when I walk for 2 hours and usually see 2 other people! What am I going to infect? The sagebrush? 

I wear one indoors, well, I did. But we have a massive fire down southwest of us, and the whole valley is full of smoke. I wore one for the 2 minutes I was in the coffee shop today, but when I went to the grocery store, I tried. But my asthma is kicking up, and I found myself gasping for breath. Anytime I was in an aisle by myself, I pulled it down. Before today, I managed to get through the grocery, but I just couldn't today. I won't wear one at Scouts this weekend--few people will be, including the police chief! We're outside, and the Scouts will only tent with family members. 

That said, I sewed my 1200th mask this evening. The Navy requires them, so the least I can't do is to make soft ones for my dd's air department! She's styling a cute one with paw prints on it right now. Most of what I've been making lately have been boring khaki, green, and Navy camo. Not near as much fun when I could raid my stash. I'm buying fabric in 20 yard increments now. 

 

eta: of course, that should be 1,200 masks, not 12,000! Oops!

The one really good N95 mask I have is one I bought for the eclipse trip we took to Utah and Idaho because Idaho was having bad wildfires.  At one point, I did have to wear one outdoors because of the smoke.

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14 minutes ago, Another Lynn said:

also government overreach, government has placed the burden of "enforcement" on businesses which I disagree with

I’m curious if you find the requirement that people wear pants in public to be government overreach? What about requiring restaurant employees to wash hands after using the restroom?

The abortion angle is unrelated to mask wearing. I’m not a pro-abortion person myself, but it certainly would have been worse in my mind if abortions had been pushed out to happen later term. The fact is it’s legal, and it’s not like it could suddenly have become illegal because of the pandemic. I also notice a weird correlation between people who say they are “pro-life” yet think their state went too far by protecting vulnerable lives by shutting down, and who also don’t want to wear masks to protect the vulnerable. Often they want to go for herd immunity. It makes it hard for many to take a pro life stance seriously. 

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5 hours ago, MissLemon said:

The people near me that do not wear masks think it interferes with personal liberty and is a symptom of an overreaching, nanny government. They do not trust government or anyone in a position of authority, so evidence from scientists or mathematicians doesn't hold water.  You could give them a study that shows homemade masks were 100% effective and they'd tell you that staying home was 100% effective too, so why don't you do that since you are so scared.  I know some of these people personally, and they are also anti-speed limits, seat belt laws, and car seat laws.  The only reason they comply with those laws is because they don't want to pay a fine.   You won't get them to comply with mask-wearing unless it is a law that comes with a fine for violation. 

We are sort of anti-speed laws but not anti- mask, anti-seat belt or anti car seat.   We just think that the speed limits are not speed limits --i.e. the actual limits of the road to be driven in a safe manner in probably most instances.  I am not talking about residential streets or crowded city streets but lots of highways and other roads have 'speed limits' set too low and hardly anyone drives the too low speed limit.

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5 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

I'm a mask refuser I guess, outside. It's just ridiculous to wear one when I walk for 2 hours and usually see 2 other people! What am I going to infect? The sagebrush? 

I wear one indoors, well, I did. But we have a massive fire down southwest of us, and the whole valley is full of smoke. I wore one for the 2 minutes I was in the coffee shop today, but when I went to the grocery store, I tried. But my asthma is kicking up, and I found myself gasping for breath. Anytime I was in an aisle by myself, I pulled it down. Before today, I managed to get through the grocery, but I just couldn't today. I won't wear one at Scouts this weekend--few people will be, including the police chief! We're outside, and the Scouts will only tent with family members. 

That said, I sewed my 1200th mask this evening. The Navy requires them, so the least I can't do is to make soft ones for my dd's air department! She's styling a cute one with paw prints on it right now. Most of what I've been making lately have been boring khaki, green, and Navy camo. Not near as much fun when I could raid my stash. I'm buying fabric in 20 yard increments now. 

 

eta: of course, that should be 1,200 masks, not 12,000! Oops!

If your state has a mask requirement or request for outdoor use not at a rally, protest, concert, sports event, etc but things like trail walking, riding a bike, fishing, boating, etc - that is ridiculous.  Even when we had stay at home orders, we could do those things because they are all so low risk. No one seems to have gotten COVID from non congested, outdoor activities.  

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4 minutes ago, kand said:

I’m curious if you find the requirement that people wear pants in public to be government overreach? What about requiring restaurant employees to wash hands after using the restroom?

The abortion angle is unrelated to mask wearing. I’m not a pro-abortion person myself, but it certainly would have been worse in my mind if abortions had been pushed out to happen later term. The fact is it’s legal, and it’s not like it could suddenly have become illegal because of the pandemic. I also notice a weird correlation between people who say they are “pro-life” yet think their state went too far by protecting vulnerable lives by shutting down, and who also don’t want to wear masks to protect the vulnerable. Often they want to go for herd immunity. It makes it hard for many to take a pro life stance seriously. 

Pants are social norms and I don't think masks need to be or should be.  Washing hands is basic personal hygiene.  I don't think masks should be considered that either.  

I point out the abortion issues to point out the double standard and the hypocrisy in our governor who made all decisions for our state and its economy for the last three months and going forward.  Hip surgeries, heart valve surgeries, and many other surgeries are legal and yet people could not receive those.  The shut down was difficult for many people financially, socially, academically, mentally, emotionally, and we heard our governor plead for drastic measures even if it only saves one life every day, all the while he was allowing the murder of thousands without any restriction on capacity.  I find that hypocritical enough to question his motives.  Lastly, I am pro-life because I don't believe in murdering in womb not because I don't take risks everyday.  I drive a car, but I am still pro life.  I consume unhealthy food.  I go out in the sun.  I might get cancer someday.  I might get the flu.  I might get covid.  I am comfortable with these risks.  That doesn't mean I am a hypocrite to stand against the murder of babies in the womb.   

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8 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

ust curious, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, I am curious about the extent of your interactions with the pubic?  I am only asking because, with so many things still shut down, I am struggling to imagine what else other folks are doing that has them out of the house so often

I’m not the one you asked, but it applies to me, so I’ll tell you about my own mask wearing instances. I live in a state with mandatory mask use inside buildings, but I have also worn them in a few outside-a-building instances. 

I am not out of the house “often.” Generally, once a week; two at most. (Except I just started hiking in a park with a friend, so don’t count that.) These are all instances I have worn a mask:

1) grocery store/pharmacy

2) wine store (cant buy alcohol at the grocery in MD)

3) farm supply store, including outside while picking up new chickens. We were outside but still face-to-face and talking loudly (over noise) to the chicken sellers.

4) post office (most often shipping out masks I made)

5) discount store (Target, Walmart).

6) parks office. I was outside, but talking to the gatekeeper, discussing fees. He was wearing a mask, so I put mine on, too. 

7) Book club, baby shower, meeting a friend for hiking. All are outdoors, but I’m wearing one while interacting more closely

I think that’s a lot of times I need or want a mask, even though I am inside my own home the large majority of the time. In some of these situations, my concern is more from the other person than for myself, like the lady who works at the post office. I’m sure I am not at much risk spending 7 minutes interacting with her to ship my package, but she has a stream of strangers coming to her counter all day long, every day. Somebody is bound to be carrying the virus and it is certainly possible they are going to leave it there for the next customer. 

To me it seems sensible to mitigate the risk as far as it is possible. But luckily, mask compliance here is practically total. 

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14 minutes ago, kand said:

I’m curious if you find the requirement that people wear pants in public to be government overreach? What about requiring restaurant employees to wash hands after using the restroom?

The abortion angle is unrelated to mask wearing. I’m not a pro-abortion person myself, but it certainly would have been worse in my mind if abortions had been pushed out to happen later term. The fact is it’s legal, and it’s not like it could suddenly have become illegal because of the pandemic. I also notice a weird correlation between people who say they are “pro-life” yet think their state went too far by protecting vulnerable lives by shutting down, and who also don’t want to wear masks to protect the vulnerable. Often they want to go for herd immunity. It makes it hard for many to take a pro life stance seriously. 

I don't know what happened in my state but I do know that in my state, almost all abortions now- some 80% or so (can't quite remember the stats cause I was looking them up when an anti-abortion law was voted on that I thought went too far) are now done with a pill.  While I dislike abortion, if that was the only type being done- I would have no issue with it more than just my general disapproval.  However- when cancer operations, operations to stop seizures, operations to renew functionality or stop permanent loss of functionality and organ transplants weren't allowed and more and more=  those issues caused deaths and permanent damage.  I think the stopping of the so-called elective surgeries (which dh, I, and probably most people thought meant surgeries like plastic surgeries and maybe joint replacements that weren't particulary urgent and cataract surgeries that could wait, etc but not cancer, organ transplants, needed heart surgeries, needed surgeries to preserve functionality, etc).  Abortions that need to be done after the so=called morning after pill are not in the same category as organ transplants.

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About where we go and where we were masks---- we were just on a short vacation to the beach.  We didn't wear one to the beach and inconsistently going to our car (where we were mostly outside.  I once forgot to wear one to get coffee at the coffee bar.  We ate in a two restaurants.  We were more than six feet away from other customers and all waiters and cashiers/order takers wore masks.  I went to pick up a seafood dinner at a mostly seafood market with a small dinner menu and I had pre ordered.  I was there less than 5 minutes and I and one other customer were wearing masks but not the counter lady nor others.  But as I said, I pre-ordered and got it almost right away.  Others were waiting there.  

Normally- I go to lots of medical appointments include pool therapy right now but normally at least 2 appointments of some kind per week if not more.  I go to some stores including grocery, wild bird store, sewing store, gardening store, etc,    I go walking (and do not wear masks with that unless I am walking in the botanical garden where I wear a mask when I enter and if in store,  and the local public library opened this week so I may go there sometime but more likely will just be doing pick up mostly.  Our church opened up for limited seating/ everyone face masked/ no singing/ etc, etc but we haven't been and will not be going because a) I am high risk and b) since we only have one service instead of two and less than half the normal seating=== we would also be taking away space from people who  need to be at church because of less technologically able to watch online or have children they want to bring.  

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In our area, I can't figure out any pattern to who wears and doesn't wear masks.  I'm avoiding facebook because I"m finding that it's making me not like people, but the people who were lecture-y about masks, pro or con, on facebook seemed to be the same people who are lecture-y about everything on facebook so I'm not too sure about correlations with other beliefs - many people might share some of their beliefs about other things, but I wouldn't know about it.  People who complain about things that aren't the way that they want them, whether it be nursing cover-ups (either direction), HOA stuff, or mask wearing (in either direction) seem to be equally bossy on all issues.  

In my small city, each area has it's own vibe about masks and it doesn't exactly fit with anything that I recognize.  There are a couple of stores that strongly enforce masks (Whole Foods) or limits on number of people (Trader Joes, which has lines of up to 20 outside, although it's quick moving).  There are places where nobody masks (kids sports, although many are limiting group size).  Our health dept shows infection rates by zip code, and there is no correlation there.  The 2 zip codes that were hardest hit first are a wealthy zip code and a poorer, minority one.  A fellow TJ's wait-er said that in the poorer one (which also has some nice houses) that nobody is wearing masks at her grocery store.  A friend in the upscale one said that it was maybe 50% when I talked to her a few weeks ago.  In the area where I would go to church if we went to church right now, fairly few wear masks.  We have a lot of great friends there, but if there were 'Karens', that's where I'd expect them to be.  In my little area, where the grocery store serves a semi-rural client base, 2/3 to 3/4 wear masks.  At the post office, almost everybody except the employees, who were behind plexiglass, was in masks.  The impression that I'm getting is that, whatever they think of them, people in my little area want people to be comfortable in places that aren't optional.  I'm good with that - if you are higher risk, stay out of the gym, or restaurants, but you can't avoid the post office or grocery store.  

One other thing that I'm noticing is that people who are mostly at home are commenting that people are living as if everything is back to normal because they see people out and about unmasked, but that's not actually how things are if you're out.  We played baseball this weekend.  Nobody was masked, but the families kept more distance - mostly not sharing tents, no 'don't get a chair out - just sit in ours - I want to stand for a while', no shared food.  At karate, everybody is unmasked but most only 1 person is allowed in per student (often whole families hung out and it was crowded), and most are staying outside.  They drag out a bunch of their benches for families to use on the sidewalk.  Some sports facilities allow one team at a time, and have parents wait in the car, so the number of contacts went from 60 to 10, just the kids.  

I also think that locally people might make different decisions if the situation was different - we have 450,000 people and have 5 deaths, all early, 4 over 75.  We have never had more than 10 hospitalized at the same time, in an area with 4 hospitals.  We are seeing an increase in cases, but case positivity and hospitalization remain low.  People are pretty 'live and let live' so I'm not seeing any criticism of folks in masks, and mask wearers mostly avoid the unmasked if they're inside.  Outside nobody is in masks, but I doubt anybody would bother people who wore them, and since outside activities aren't required people bothered by the lack of masks are probably just staying home.  

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10 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I think I misunderstood.

 

Just curious, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, I am curious about the extent of your interactions with the pubic?  I am only asking because, with so many things still shut down, I am struggling to imagine what else other folks are doing that has them out of the house so often.  

Well, it's also important to remember that those 1000 cases are total.....not total active, but total overall.  Of those, some have unfortunately passed away, but most of them who were tested earlier are already recovered and no longer contagious

. And, mom doesn't go to church, no weddings, graduations etc.  

What is still shut down where you are? I’m just curious since I know you’re in a state over from me. Pretty much everything here is open, with bars and clubs even opening last week. Malls, stores, and restaurants have been doing a lot of business for several weeks now. My family pretty much just sticks to the grocery store but my mom goes out almost daily (mall shopping, hair done, groceries, restaurant, work, etc). 
 

As to the OP, I don’t get it either. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence now that points to masks being effective. I wish it was mandatory everywhere.

Edited by Joker
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18 minutes ago, ClemsonDana said:

In our area, I can't figure out any pattern to who wears and doesn't wear masks.

I can't figure out a pattern here, either.

I know the general belief (here in Chat and among the handful of neighbors I've talked with) is that fewer people at Walmart are wearing masks than at higher end grocery stores. But that doesn't seem to correlate with what I'm seeing. I've been impressed by the number of people wearing masks at Walmart when I've been there. Maybe my expectations have been too low, but in the past few weeks I'd estimate that anywhere from 50-75 percent of shoppers have been masked, and that seems pretty good to me. Now I go early in the morning (usually I arrive between 8:00-8:30), so maybe the demographic I'm seeing at that time is made up of the more concerned people. Last week I was in a higher end grocery store (Harris Teeter) in an upscale area and was shocked at how many people were NOT masked. Really, truly shocked because I expected near 100 percent compliance and I'd say at best it was 30 percent. But it was later in the morning (around 11:00). So again--I'm wondering if the people most concerned are still shopping early?

A neighbor was complaining that she was at Lowe's and almost nobody was masked, but at TJ's (same upscale area as the HT mentioned above) almost everybody was. But I had to go to Lowe's the other day and I'd say at least 50 percent of people were masked, which was more than I expected.

So it really seems to me that things must vary a lot even within the same general area, and the variations are hard to pin down. Plus when any of us are out we're just seeing one snapshot in time. And I'm guessing individual bias place a part, too. To some extent or other we all tend to see what we want to see.

Edited by Pawz4me
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8 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I had a physician tell me that he thought there was a difference because in the medical setting they are careful about how the mask is handled.  But, when people are wearing a cloth mask, taking it off and setting it down on a table, putting it back on, then pulling it down to take a sip of water, then pulling it back up, he thought there was a much greater chance for the mask to be contaminated with bacteria (not necessarily from the breathing of the individual) that can then easily multiply in a damp, warm environment.

I think if you are wearing the mask long enough for it to get that wet and you are putting it down on surfaces that likely have that type of bacteria, well then, switch out masks every few hours. That however would have zero bearing on people wearing them for a 30 minute grocery trip in an air conditioned building. 

5 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

I know a number of people who will not. I walk with a lady who will not. She's given up her daily coffee on our walk because of it. Very few people at the Flag Day ceremony were wearing them, including a number of Scouts and families. The Legion and the Elks were not. Heck, the police chief was not! Probably a third of the folks in the grocery today were not. There are a lot of signs up in town on businesses that say something like--the regulations say you have to. We don't care. There is a list on FB of businesses that don't require them. The coffee shop I go to has snarky signs all over about requirements, and the owner was interviewed in the paper saying they require them. However, his employees never are! They always pulled down! It makes me chuckle. I had to go to a different shop down the street yesterday, and I won't be back--not only did I get harassed by the screaming women with signs about BLM, the coffee shop lady FREAKED out when I carried my cup in! Somehow charging me an extra $1 to watch me pour the coffee into MY cup, and then you throw the "dirty" cup out has not kept anyone safe. Plus, I like cream in my coffee. Nope. And the coffee was awful. 

Given that many experts seem to think masks can save thousands of lives, I'm not sure why it is funny when people wear them improperly? 

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think it’s probably like TMI getting a fungal infection etc in summer from wearing warm moist clothes or socks?  I have read an older science study talking about this though it was a while ago.

Yeah, if you are getting an infection from your mask getting that wet from say, a trip to the grocery store, you probably have other issues. A typical store visit in an airconditioned building should not result in a skin infection from a wet mask. 

2 hours ago, Another Lynn said:

So not a scientific study.  

No, I'm sorry if it seemed I was stating a fact versus a personal observation. 

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This is another paper where they found mask wearing effective in preventing transmission. . https://www.ksl.com/article/46764363/best-way-to-reduce-coronavirus-transmission-is-by-wearing-a-face-mask-study-finds?fbclid=IwAR0MYOaEgDDLwVYBW16t9JAsH7Tcs9kswn504OsnqLd4ulO7TlVLsieP7LY

 

The researchers calculated that wearing face masks prevented more than 78,000 infections in Italy between April 6 and May 9, and more than 66,000 infections in New York City between April 17 and May 9.

"Wearing of face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent interhuman transmission, and this inexpensive practice, in conjunction with simultaneous social distancing, quarantine, and contact tracing, represents the most likely fighting opportunity to stop the COVID-19 pandemic, prior to the development of a vaccine" they wrote.

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And I have to say, I'm not trying to be a "know it all" who "looks down on" people when I share articles/papers/studies/etc. I'm trying to share information. Because I assume that we all want to educate ourselves on the most up to date evidence so we can protect ourselves and those around us. 

Edited by Ktgrok
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39 minutes ago, Joker said:

What is still shut down where you are? I’m just curious since I know you’re in a state over from me. Pretty much everything here is open, with bars and clubs even opening last week. Malls, stores, and restaurants have been doing a lot of business for several weeks now. My family pretty much just sticks to the grocery store but my mom goes out almost daily

Scouts/scout camps are all still shut down and will not be opening this summer.  The town isn't doing their 4th of July fireworks, the indoor pool is only open for lap swim (though our local outdoor pool is open, for which I am glad.  The splash pad doesn't open until the end of the month, the library is only doing curbside pick up, not allowing anyone inside like for browsing, and I am not sure when that will open.  The water park for the rec center is not opening at all this season, and the vast majority of the summer programs they were going to offer were cancelled and will not be restarted.  A local museum (not a "children's museum" specifically, but very geared towards children) is starting their limited opening, but only for members and with limited capacity even for membership.   Shoot, the playgrounds only just opened a week ago!  The air show is "postponed" with no word on when it will go on (probably not.)  The Air Force Marathon is going virtual only, and I can't figure out if the 5k is being done virtually as well or not at all.   I am crossing my fingers that the blueberry Upick will be open this year, but with the late season cold weather, I don't know if they will be able to (which isn't covid related...but one more thing not open still.)  ETA: oh, and the fairs, the county fairs are not opening either.  

 

Basically most things family oriented, is all either completely cancelled, not open yet, or extremely difficult to access due to limitations and restrictions.  I am not bringing my kids to bars, clubs, malls, and we rarely eat at restaurants (other than the occasional McDs drive thu) anyway.  And certainly it's not like we go to all those things all the time, every day or anything like that.  But yeah, the sorts of things I would anticipate families going and doing during the summer....most of it is still unavaliable.  

Edited by happysmileylady

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