Appropriate language for diverse cultures

[bookbard]

So I am in Australia. I would say Indigenous Australian, Anglo-Australian etc. When we were kids we'd say "I'm Anglo" (I am part Indian but as adopted didn't know that). 

I thought that when you were talking about other cultures, that was the way to do it - African-American, Indian-Australian etc. 

Is that still correct, or is it seen as old-fashioned? Is it seen as othering, if you've been in the US for two hundred years and still called "African-American" rather than simply American? 

 

 

[Ottakee]

Lots of different ideas here.

My family is Native American.....but go by Indian most of the time.  Even the official legal name of the tribe is the......... Band of ..........Indians.    some Native Americans are offended by that though.

Not all Blacks in the US are African American....some come from Haiti or other countries not on the African continent.

Then to make things more interesting (this is rarer), I had a foster child that was African American.....but WHITE.  Family was from Africa, came to the US, but was white African.

I try to be sensitive to the person I am speaking with...and often just ask them if I am unsure and it is a topic of conversation.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Ottakee

[Tanaqui]

In the USA, African-American is a widely accepted term, and many African-Americans use it themselves, sometimes interchangeably with the word Black and sometimes in preference to it.

However, I don't know what the situation is in Australia. What's polite speech here in the USA for a group of Americans might be weird and awkward and currently dispreferred in Australia. I think you're asking about usage for Americans, but if you're asking about usage for PoC over there, I can't help you.

Edit: Of course, wherever you are, if somebody tells you that they're This or That, or not to call them This Other Thing then you should, of course, respect their wishes.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Tanaqui

[bookbard]

45 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Not all Blacks in the US are African American....some come from Haiti or other countries not on the African continent.

OK, that sentence made me think lots of things. Oh yeah, not all people with black skin are from Africa, good point. Then - wasn't Haiti where the African slaves had a revolt and were free for ages? 

 

49 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Of course, wherever you are, if somebody tells you that they're This or That, or not to call them This Other Thing then you should, of course, respect their wishes.

Absolutely. I guess I was thinking when people are talking in general about the protests etc. In Australia, the main protests have been about how the Indigenous people have been treated esp deaths in custody, rather than about racism in general. 

[mom2scouts]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Lots of different ideas here.

My family is Native American.....but go by Indian most of the time.  Even the official legal name of the tribe is the......... Band of ..........Indians.    some Native Americans are offended by that though.

Not all Blacks in the US are African American....some come from Haiti or other countries not on the African continent.

Then to make things more interesting (this is rarer), I had a foster child that was African American.....but WHITE.  Family was from Africa, came to the US, but was white African.

I try to be sensitive to the person I am speaking with...and often just ask them if I am unsure and it is a topic of conversation.

I also know a white woman who is an immigrant from Africa and she considers herself an African American. I know a black man who *hates* the term African American because he thinks it's a term to treat blacks as other and not as true Americans. There was a guy I went to college with who got angry every time someone called him African American. He was from the Bahamas and didn't like people to call him AA just because he was black. But then I've been chastised for using the word black instead of African American. I know an American Indian who dislikes the term Native American. I'm not sure there's any way to know the appropriate language.

[gardenmom5]

your answers will vary by whom you're speaking with.   If you want to know how someone would like to be addressed - ask them specifically.

[Melissa in Australia]

Sometimes people are funny, DH, a Canadian has been called a Hun by someone here( one of our neighbours) because they knew his parents are German. 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

Most everyone in Australia always ask him if he is Canadian as they know he biggest insult you can give a Canadian is asking if they are American 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

Up until about 6 or 7 years ago I thought that the black coloured people in USA were called Negro. I had never heard anyone call them black or African American.

There are not many African American people here, not many at all. 

People here who have just immigrated from Africa usually go by the country they are from, eg, Sudanese 

[gardenmom5]

59 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Most everyone in Australia always ask him if he is Canadian as they know he biggest insult you can give a Canadian is asking if they are American 

I read some european sites - it's amazing how many EUROPEANS refer to canadians as american because they think we're one and the same.   two different countries.  some may be doing it to be insulting, but some it's just ignorance.

I once made the mistake of asking someone obviously from eastern europe if they were russian.  I won't be doing that again. . . Now, I just ask if they're from eastern europe.  - and even though niece's ukranian husband learned russian in school - I once mentioned something about that to a ukranian and he was  angry  and acted as though niece's husband was russian (which he's not).  it's not his fault the schools where he lived taught russian when he was in school.  now they teach german.  so much for facilitating communication between the generations of their own country.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

I also know a white woman who is an immigrant from Africa and she considers herself an African American. I know a black man who *hates* the term African American because he thinks it's a term to treat blacks as other and not as true Americans.

This is what @Sneezyone wanted me to change recently in a post I made—not to use black as a noun.  

 

1 hour ago, mom2scouts said:

There was a guy I went to college with who got angry every time someone called him African American. He was from the Bahamas and didn't like people to call him AA just because he was black. But then I've been chastised for using the word black instead of African American. I know an American Indian who dislikes the term Native American. I'm not sure there's any way to know the appropriate language.

 

It’s very hard. I agree.

 

 

 

Ultimately, go back far enough, and all human beings were from Africa as I understand it. 

[Laura Corin]

In the UK, the most common term is Black British for people of African or African-Caribbean descent.  More generally, BAME (Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic) is also used, as is People of Colour.

British Asian is usually used to refer to people of Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi heritage.  Other people whose families came from Asia are referred to more specifically as British Chinese, British Japanese, etc.

I'm very happy to use whatever terminology an individual prefers and am happy to be corrected.  I have misgendered people too in the past by accident, and was corrected politely - no hard feelings.

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

Ultimately, go back far enough, and all human beings were from Africa as I understand it. 

Yep. We were discussing that at dinner last night.

My biggest pet peeve about language used for people is assuming that everyone shares the same opinion. I mean it's really ignorant to imply or insist that all people in your group (whatever that is) use your preferred term. I'm guessing people who do that assume their term is the one preferred by the majority in the group, but I've found that may or may not be true, and it still doesn't mean any individual within that group prefers it. My policy is to be as kind and as tactful as possible (verbally tiptoe) until I know. And sometimes I still flub it up. I hope people understand that some of us really are trying.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Pawz4me

[Scarlett]

I think over time words become offensive because a good portion of the people using said words are clearly racists.  This leaves non racists struggling to figure out what the current offensive words are and what the current preferred words are.  

[TracyP]

Locally the Native American tribe mostly refers to themselves as Indians but I'm uncomfortable with that so I usually go with Native because that term is also widely used here.

I have now heard several black people complain about the term African-American so I try not to use it. I dated a Jamaican guy back in the day. A bystander could have easily called him African-American, so I get why that term is making assumptions. 

Mostly I think you do the best you can. People are generally kind about this as long as they know you mean well. To that point... my dh is an electrician and does a lot of work on the resevation. He has a tendency to stick his foot in his mouth and he has done that twice while working there. Both times (different people) they very kindly explained what he had done. It wasn't racist per se, but not understanding of their culture. In my mind he should have known better, but oh well. My dh apologized and learned from the exchange. If you mean well people know this and will be very forgiving if you don't say things quite "right".

[maize]

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I read some european sites - it's amazing how many EUROPEANS refer to canadians as american because they think we're one and the same.   two different countries.  

Maybe they're referring to continental origin... That's what we do when we call someone European.

[maize]

12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 - and even though niece's ukranian husband learned russian in school - I once mentioned something about that to a ukranian and he was  angry  and acted as though niece's husband was russian (which he's not).  it's not his fault the schools where he lived taught russian when he was in school.  now they teach german.  so much for facilitating communication between the generations of their own country.

About 30% of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language, particularly in the eastern part of the country where they are actually the majority.

There's complicated history to that and a good deal of ethnic tension.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by maize

[hjffkj]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

Maybe they're referring to continental origin... That's what we do when we call someone European.

 

That would make sense.  When I spent 5 weeks in Ecuador I was told not to say i was an American because that would imply that Ecuadorians were not and it upset many.  The proper thing to do was say you are from the United States.

[Jaybee]

It can be confusing. As a child, I heard the "n" word being used both as colloquial for Negro and also as a derogatory term (not always as both at the same time, if that makes sense). When in second grade and the first integrations in the schools, my teacher gave us a very explicit lecture. One of the two girls coming into our grade would be in our classroom (I think back on the bravery of those little girls and their parents often.). Our teacher instructed us in no uncertain terms that we should never say the "n" word. The proper terms were either "Negro" or "colored." And we were to accept her and make her feel welcome. Fast forward, and those two terms were no longer acceptable. Then it became "black people" as the "black power" movement grew. Then changed to African American. But as said above, some people prefer to be call black people, others prefer African American. 

A side note: When I was in the fourth grade, the schools became completely integrated, and the schools that had been exclusively for black children were shut down. I had my first black teacher. I loved her. She was one of the best teachers I ever had. She was gentle, sweet, interesting, and had control of that classroom. It couldn't have been easy, but she handled it with dignity.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, maize said:

About 30% of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language, particularly in the eaten part of the country where they are actually the majority.

There's complicated history to that and a good deal of ethnic tension.

 

yeah - I got the tension.  and they're now teaching german in school.

niece and her dh live in germany.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Maybe they're referring to continental origin... That's what we do when we call someone European.

I'm not going into it details - based upon the context of the comment, most were not.  based upon context - it would not have been appropriate to have lumped them all in together (none of those same people called mexicans american - but mexico is on the north american continent.)

it would have been akin to discussing scotland specifically - and calling them english.

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Most everyone in Australia always ask him if he is Canadian as they know he biggest insult you can give a Canadian is asking if they are American 

I'm from the southwestern US, which used to be part of Mexico and has a high indigenous Native American and  Latino population and a high immigrant Latino population. (Many of the Native American tribes were wiped out and forcibly removed from other parts of the US, so they don't have high numbers there anymore.) When I'm there I avoid saying, "I'm American" because many people there would speak up and remind me that there are many different people groups from the Americans and are therefore, American. I say I'm from the US for clarity. It might be possible someone is viewing him from this angle.

I've never personally encountered a Latino or indigenous person from Mexico, Central or South America that referred to themselves as American, but then I haven't met everybody. Saying I'm from the US makes it clear.

My son in law is a Descendant. His maternal grandmother who helped raise him is full Hopi, a Native American tribe in AZ.  He doesn't refer to himself as Native American because the current tendency there is to view both genetics and culture as being NA, but it's not clear cut.  He wasn't raised in NA culture even though Grandma did most of the raising for a while in a US city, not on tribal land.  He also chose not to take any NA privileges for college.  He could've had his entire college tuition for his computer science degree (not a small sum in the US) paid for by the federal government and other things because of his heritage but those are intended for the tribal members suffering and needing help.  It would've been disrespectful on his part to take that from NAs. He doesn't have an Indian Census number either, but if I recall correctly, I think he is eligible.

The same with my mother's best friend. (Born in 1945.)  Her father was full Choctaw.  She did have an Indian Census number, but he died when she was young and she wasn't raised in the culture either. She never utilized any of the programs for NAs.   She did refer to herself as half Choctaw.

I live in the upper South on the east coast now.  Black people here refer to themselves as black, so that's how I refer to them. I have heard black people not from Africa say they don't like being called AA. I can understand why. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Oh, and I just remembered an odd exception.

Same son in law and middle daughter were competitive archers in high school. We went to the Vegas Shoot every Feb. or several years to compete internationally.  There was also an archery trade show on site.  One of the vendors every year was a Shoshone woman and her son who made traditional bows and jewelry for sale.  (A big hit with the international crowd.) She referred to herself as Mrs. Squaw. It was on the sign she brought and put over her booth. Normally I would rather die than refer to a NA female as a squaw because it's considered rude and racists, but that's what she called herself and how she introduced herself, so it would be OK to call her that. I did chat with her for a while because I was looking for something in particular-owl jewelry for my oldest who really liked owls.  Then she explained she didn't bring anything with an owl on it to the area out of respect because the local tribes there believe owls are harbingers of death. Then she explained she wasn't a local tribe, she was Shoshone. 

Vegas is full of interesting people.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm from the southwestern US, which used to be part of Mexico and has a high indigenous Native American and  Latino population and a high immigrant Latino population. (Many of the Native American tribes were wiped out and forcibly removed from other parts of the US, so they don't have high numbers there anymore.) When I'm there I avoid saying, "I'm American" because many people there would speak up and remind me that there are many different people groups from the Americans and are therefore, American. I say I'm from the US for clarity. It might be possible someone is viewing him from this angle.

I've never personally encountered a Latino or indigenous person from Mexico, Central or South America that referred to themselves as American, but then I haven't met everybody. Saying I'm from the US makes it clear.

My son in law is a Descendant. His maternal grandmother who helped raise him is full Hopi, a Native American tribe in AZ.  He doesn't refer to himself as Native American because the current tendency there is to view both genetics and culture as being NA, but it's not clear cut.  He wasn't raised in NA culture even though Grandma did most of the raising for a while in a US city, not on tribal land.  He also chose not to take any NA privileges for college.  He could've had his entire college tuition for his computer science degree (not a small sum in the US) paid for by the federal government and other things because of his heritage but those are intended for the tribal members suffering and needing help.  It would've been disrespectful on his part to take that from NAs. He doesn't have an Indian Census number either, but if I recall correctly, I think he is eligible.

The same with my mother's best friend. (Born in 1945.)  Her father was full Choctaw.  She did have an Indian Census number, but he died when she was young and she wasn't raised in the culture either. She never utilized any of the programs for NAs.   She did refer to herself as half Choctaw.

I live in the upper South on the east coast now.  Black people here refer to themselves as black, so that's how I refer to them. I have heard black people not from Africa say they don't like being called AA. I can understand why. 

I have never heard of NA not accepting their benefits just because they weren’t raised in the culture. Interesting. 

[Skippy]

6 hours ago, Jaybee said:

When in second grade and the first integrations in the schools, my teacher gave us a very explicit lecture. One of the two girls coming into our grade would be in our classroom (I think back on the bravery of those little girls and their parents often.).

My community was one of the last in this state to integrate the schools. White people and black people sat on separate floors in the movie theater and walked down different sides of the street even in 1970.

Segregation was a very bad policy and needed to end, but integration was so hard for that generation of black students.

In my community, the schools for black students were beloved by the students and the community they served. Despite the inequities, they had built really great schools and had amazing administrators and teachers. The black students had much pride in their schools and were sad when their schools closed and they had to integrate into the schools for the white children.

(Needless to say, the KKK and others in the community were also unhappy with school integration but for contemptible reasons.)

This is just a picture of what was going on in my community, but it must have been so hard for that entire generation of young black students. 

[klmama]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I have never heard of NA not accepting their benefits just because they weren’t raised in the culture. Interesting. 

People make choices that fit with their priorities.  The benefits were intended to help those who were disadvantaged.  I remember reading an article by Richard Rodriguez, "None of This is Fair" in the 6th ed. of The Norton Sampler, who, as a Chicano with a PhD in English, was offered a bunch of amazing professor positions, while his equally-qualified white friends weren't offered any.  He realized Affirmative Action had helped him get where he was, even though his family wasn't poor or uneducated, and that he would again benefit from Affirmative Action by taking one of those professor jobs that his friends weren't offered; in the end, he chose not to take any of them and went into journalism instead.  

FWIW, in my area the term "African American" is used primarily by younger people and "black" is used more by middle-aged people and older.  Some of the oldest still use "colored" or "Negro" (as used by NAACP and United Negro College Fund), but those seem pretty rare.  I do hear a lot of "people of color" or "women of color."  The people I know from Africa call themselves "Africans," even once they have become US citizens.  Those from Puerto Rico call themselves "black Puerto Ricans," despite already being US citizens.  They are very clear about not being "African Americans."  That term pertains to a particular culture, which isn't theirs.

The Native Americans I've met usually use "First Nations" or the name of their band, although they do sometimes use "Native American."  They very politely redirect from the use of "Indian."  

 

 

 

 

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, maize said:

About 30% of Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language, particularly in the eastern part of the country where they are actually the majority.

There's complicated history to that and a good deal of ethnic tension.

 

Those people are not Ukranians.  They are Russians living in Ukraine. Just like my mom's parents weren;'t Ukrainian either though the area they lived in before WWII is now the Ukraine.  They were Polish. That area was in the far western portion of what is now Ukraine and was part of Poland between the wars (though the family lived in that far Western portion of Ukraine and far Eastern portion of Poland even before WW!,

Edited June 16, 2020 by TravelingChris

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm from the southwestern US, which used to be part of Mexico and has a high indigenous Native American and  Latino population and a high immigrant Latino population. (Many of the Native American tribes were wiped out and forcibly removed from other parts of the US, so they don't have high numbers there anymore.) When I'm there I avoid saying, "I'm American" because many people there would speak up and remind me that there are many different people groups from the Americans and are therefore, American. I say I'm from the US for clarity. It might be possible someone is viewing him from this angle.

I've never personally encountered a Latino or indigenous person from Mexico, Central or South America that referred to themselves as American, but then I haven't met everybody. Saying I'm from the US makes it clear.

My son in law is a Descendant. His maternal grandmother who helped raise him is full Hopi, a Native American tribe in AZ.  He doesn't refer to himself as Native American because the current tendency there is to view both genetics and culture as being NA, but it's not clear cut.  He wasn't raised in NA culture even though Grandma did most of the raising for a while in a US city, not on tribal land.  He also chose not to take any NA privileges for college.  He could've had his entire college tuition for his computer science degree (not a small sum in the US) paid for by the federal government and other things because of his heritage but those are intended for the tribal members suffering and needing help.  It would've been disrespectful on his part to take that from NAs. He doesn't have an Indian Census number either, but if I recall correctly, I think he is eligible.

The same with my mother's best friend. (Born in 1945.)  Her father was full Choctaw.  She did have an Indian Census number, but he died when she was young and she wasn't raised in the culture either. She never utilized any of the programs for NAs.   She did refer to herself as half Choctaw.

I live in the upper South on the east coast now.  Black people here refer to themselves as black, so that's how I refer to them. I have heard black people not from Africa say they don't like being called AA. I can understand why. 

My son in law has a small percentage of Indian heritage and through ancestry records could register in a certain Southeastern Tribe (I don't remember if it was Creek or Choctaw or which one specifically) but he is the last generation that would be able.  Neither he, nor his parent nor his grandparent that had the small percentages were registered and didn't want to be getting benefits either since they were not culturally Indian at all.

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, klmama said:

People make choices that fit with their priorities.  The benefits were intended to help those who were disadvantaged.  I remember reading an article by Richard Rodriguez, "None of This is Fair" in the 6th ed. of The Norton Sampler, who, as a Chicano with a PhD in English, was offered a bunch of amazing professor positions, while his equally-qualified white friends weren't offered any.  He realized Affirmative Action had helped him get where he was, even though his family wasn't poor or uneducated, and that he would again benefit from Affirmative Action by taking one of those professor jobs that his friends weren't offered; in the end, he chose not to take any of them and went into journalism instead.  

FWIW, in my area the term "African American" is used primarily by younger people and "black" is used more by middle-aged people and older.  Some of the oldest still use "colored" or "Negro" (as used by NAACP and United Negro College Fund), but those seem pretty rare.  I do hear a lot of "people of color" or "women of color."  The people I know from Africa call themselves "Africans," even once they have become US citizens.  Those from Puerto Rico call themselves "black Puerto Ricans," despite already being US citizens.  They are very clear about not being "African Americans."  That term pertains to a particular culture, which isn't theirs.

The Native Americans I've met usually use "First Nations" or the name of their band, although they do sometimes use "Native American."  They very politely redirect from the use of "Indian."  

 

 

 

 

I certainly am not an expert on NA but it seems to me that if the benefits  were only intended for the disadvantaged they would place income restrictions upon them. 

[Melissa in Australia]

7 hours ago, maize said:

Maybe they're referring to continental origin... That's what we do when we call someone European.

I was wondering this as well. I don't think I have ever heard of someone being referred to as European, but rather the country they are from. Same as British, always the person is referred to as Scottish or welsh or English as a point of origin 

[maize]

17 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Those people are not Ukranians.  They are Russians living in Ukraine. Just like my mom's parents weren;'t Ukrainian either though the area they lived in before WWII is now the Ukraine.  They were Polish. That area was in the far western portion of what is now Ukraine and was part of Poland between the wars (though the family lived in that far Western portion of Ukraine and far Eastern portion of Poland even before WW!,

If they are citizens of Ukraine--and most native Russian speakers in Ukraine are citizens of that country--they are Ukrainian.

Presumably if you have American citizenship you can call yourself American regardless of the origins or ethnicity of your parents and grandparents.

Russian speaking Ukrainians are one of several ethnic minorities in Ukraine.

[klmama]

37 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I certainly am not an expert on NA but it seems to me that if the benefits  were only intended for the disadvantaged they would place income restrictions upon them. 

Hmmm.  Perhaps you're right. 

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, Jaybee said:

It can be confusing. As a child, I heard the "n" word being used both as colloquial for Negro and also as a derogatory term (not always as both at the same time, if that makes sense).

What I learned in the 70s in Asia was Negro was colloquial and Nig*** was derogatory. We also learned about the anti-apartheid movement in elementary school and had Chinua Achebe’s Things Fall Apart as our literature textbook in middle school. 

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

. But I've heard of too many stories of children born here who feel othered because they are children of immigrants. 

My kids are called ABC (American born Chinese) even though my oldest is not born here. There is also ABJ and ABK. 

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Skippy said:

My community was one of the last in this state to integrate the schools. White people and black people sat on separate floors in the movie theater and walked down different sides of the street even in 1970.

Segregation was a very bad policy and needed to end, but integration was so hard for that generation of black students.

In my community, the schools for black students were beloved by the students and the community they served. Despite the inequities, they had built really great schools and had amazing administrators and teachers. The black students had much pride in their schools and were sad when their schools closed and they had to integrate into the schools for the white children.

(Needless to say, the KKK and others in the community were also unhappy with school integration but for contemptible reasons.)

This is just a picture of what was going on in my community, but it must have been so hard for that entire generation of young black students. 

I am not sure what is happening in an area about 1.5 hours away from me since COVID 19 changed schools and school administration so much but a school in a mostly black community was labeled as a failing school by the state.  There were many news reports of how the community was begging the school district to keep their school open since it was not just used for education but was a center of their community.  As I said, with all the Covid news and now police tactics news, I have not read any updates as to whether they decided to keep it open..

[Skippy]

42 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I am not sure what is happening in an area about 1.5 hours away from me since COVID 19 changed schools and school administration so much but a school in a mostly black community was labeled as a failing school by the state.  There were many news reports of how the community was begging the school district to keep their school open since it was not just used for education but was a center of their community.  As I said, with all the Covid news and now police tactics news, I have not read any updates as to whether they decided to keep it open..

There should not be failing schools, but I don't know that closing the schools is the solution.

I don't think there has been enough emphasis on the prevalence of systemic racism in the education system.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

My kids are called ABC (American born Chinese) even though my oldest is not born here. There is also ABJ and ABK. 

who calls them that? and how is it meant?

I'm visiting dd in August, and we have tentative plans to go visit her bff (20+ years), who is first gen korean-american.

[Arcadia]

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

who calls them that? and how is it meant?

I'm visiting dd in August, and we have tentative plans to go visit her bff (20+ years), who is first gen korean-american.

Strangers (Caucasians, Asians, mixed races). We do live in an Asian majority area.  It is meant as a neutral descriptor, like this kid is an ABC and can’t speak Chinese well (versus calling a chinese who can’t speak Chinese well a “banana” which is derogatory). It’s describing kids who grew up in the US (my kids) versus those who migrated here during college days or for work (my husband and I). I am just called chinese since Chinese migrants here come from Taiwan, SE Asia, Canada, as well as China. 

You could think it implies an insult in the sense that the ABC/J/K are assumed to be weak in their heritage languages. However it is rarely used in a condescending or sarcastic manner. More in an extend grace manner. Like so-and-so is introduced as an ABC to a small group of Chinese and people would remember not to talk in Chinese exclusively. 

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Strangers (Caucasians, Asians, mixed races). We do live in an Asian majority area.  It is meant as a neutral descriptor, like this kid is an ABC and can’t speak Chinese well (versus calling a chinese who can’t speak Chinese well a “banana” which is derogatory). It’s describing kids who grew up in the US (my kids) versus those who migrated here during college days or for work (my husband and I). I am just called chinese since Chinese migrants here come from Taiwan, SE Asia, Canada, as well as China. 

You could think it implies an insult in the sense that the ABC/J/K are assumed to be weak in their heritage languages. However it is rarely used in a condescending or sarcastic manner. More in an extend grace manner. Like so-and-so is introduced as an ABC to a small group of Chinese and people would remember not to talk in Chinese exclusively. 

where I'm at, saturday chinese/korean/japanese (even french) school is very common.  At least a lot of the first gen asian kids I'm well acquainted with (kids friends, and children of friends) generally have good language skills in their parents native language.

dh's nephew's wife is chinese (they met in china).  he said he's reached the point he can kinda argue in chinese.  (I assume mandarin)

One of the more interesting culture bits I was introduced to was (I think it was japanese) stating their age when introducing themselves so those older and younger know how to refer to them.

 

[Mabelen]

17 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

My kids are called ABD, American Born Desi.  Desi is a catch all term for India, Pakistan, Srilanka, Bangladesh and Nepal. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi

If people want to be sarcastic, my kids are called ABCD, American Born Confused Desi which I find extremely derogatory. I am called Indian because I was not born here, not Asian Indian.  

 

My kids are definitely confused. My husband is a Sri Lankan Tamil, and I am a white Spaniard. They are yet to meet anybody else with that particular heritage. My oldest looks Indian, while my youngest has a more ethnically ambiguous look. There are large groups of kids in their schools of both Indian and Mexican heritage, and although those groups share similarities with our cultural make up, there are also a lot of differences. Their families tend to socialize with each other outside school too so that kind of leaves my kids on the outside. 

[Mabelen]

17 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

where I'm at, saturday chinese/korean/japanese (even french) school is very common.  At least a lot of the first gen asian kids I'm well acquainted with (kids friends, and children of friends) generally have good language skills in their parents native language.

dh's nephew's wife is chinese (they met in china).  he said he's reached the point he can kinda argue in chinese.  (I assume mandarin)

One of the more interesting culture bits I was introduced to was (I think it was japanese) stating their age when introducing themselves so those older and younger know how to refer to them.

 

I think there’s a range of language proficiency even within families. My oldest has always had stronger Spanish speaking skills than my youngest. In part due to interest/ability, in part due to place in the family. My youngest grew up with an older sibling with whom to speak English at home, my oldest didn’t.

My oldest has a best friend of Chinese descent (Taiwan on dad’s side, Hong Kong on mom’s) and her Chinese is very basic despite her mom’s attempts. She and her brother even attended Chinese school at some point but they dropped out because they couldn’t keep up.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Mabelen

[Jaybee]

17 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

Yes, the bolded word was used to describe people and things associated with them like music. I grew up with songs called N***o spirituals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_(music)

Also a horrible doll called Gollywog was very much around and many kids played with it including me and had them often as family heirlooms handed down in my case. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwog

I did not know both were wrong and why till I came here. 

Please, (readers in general) if I am wrong on this, understand that I am not meaning any disrespect, but am speaking from the point of view of my understanding from my personal history. Dreamergal, in another post, you also referred to the "n" word. "Negro" is not the "n" word; a derivative of that word is. While "Negro" isn't used much anymore, because black people preferred other terms, it wasn't generally considered a derogatory word. So, "Negro spirituals" is/was the name used for that particular genre of music. Again, I could be wrong on this. Maybe @Sneezyone will give a clearer perspective.

[Jean in Newcastle]

  Dh (a first generation Filipino immigrant) can understand Tagalog but not speak it because his parents did full immersion into first Canadian and then US culture and language.  He gets people who think that he's Chinese and/or Mexican.  We have a strong extended family tradition based around food and family.  We have gone to the Philippines and are talking about going again once the pandemic is "over"/ under control. 

I am a very white American of European descent who was born and raised in Japan.  I was immersed enough in the culture that when I lived in Japan people had rumors that I couldn't speak English.  When I was in college there were rumors that I had been raised by Japanese parents.  But of course I am not ethnically Japanese and while I am fluent in the language and understand the culture well, I did not live there as a Japanese but as an American ex-pat.  When my kids were young they told everyone that I was Japanese which confused a lot of people!  (I did tell them not to do that because I was afraid that people would take offense and think that I was appropriating a culture that was not my own.)

My son tells people that he is "Filipino Scottish", the Scottish being the biggest part of my European ancestry.  My daughter tells people that she is Pacific Islander though I have cautioned her that most people categorize the Philippines as Asian even though it is technically an island in the Pacific.  But both are adults now and will have to figure out their own identity.  Interestingly my son especially has embraced Filipino traditions in the last couple of years.  He's working on his lumpia making skills and is pursuing Filipino martial arts.  My daughter has pursued Japanese culture. 

I'm not sure where I am going with this other than racial designations aren't really important in our family other than for use on government forms.  No one has introduced any of us with any specific designation of race or ethnicity.  We do talk about our background as part of friendship.  My kids especially like talking about Grandma's purple squid dish at Christmas but I think that's mainly to gross out their friends.  😉 

BTW - my family of origin has ethnic and cultural ties to Japan, ,Brazil, Kenya and Peru as well as the United States.  Dh's family of origin has ties to the Philippines, Russia, Canada, China, Japan and the US.  None of us focus much on any of that but more on relationship.

ETA- while our ethnicity hasn't been an issue in our family and friend relationships, I have been targeted and harassed a couple of times by skinheads.  Both times I was the target and not my family who was with me.  The idea being that I was the traitor, I guess. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[Jaybee]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

Thank you.

I don't know much by way of American history or race, what I know is basically self taught or through conversation with people. The N***o word in my native was used to describe choirs who used to come from Africa and songs which I later found out were from America called N****o Spirituals. It is still used to my knowledge in my native country. I always correct it and say do not use it or use the name of the country to describe which choir or just Spirituals to describe the songs.  I do so because the first and only time I used it while talking to a person in America who was Caucasian in the context of church music I grew up wit, they visibly recoiled when they heard me use it and said not to use that word again. It made an impression on me. 

It may be more of a regional difference, or... like I said, I may be wrong...

[JadeOrchidSong]

On 6/16/2020 at 3:55 AM, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, the most common term is Black British for people of African or African-Caribbean descent.  More generally, BAME (Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic) is also used, as is People of Colour.

British Asian is usually used to refer to people of Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi heritage.  Other people whose families came from Asia are referred to more specifically as British Chinese, British Japanese, etc.

I'm very happy to use whatever terminology an individual prefers and am happy to be corrected.  I have misgendered people too in the past by accident, and was corrected politely - no hard feelings.

I find BAME to be very insulting. I'd rather be called people of color. And I think British Chinese sounds very wrong, as if they were still Chinese citizens. I would prefer Chinese American because this shows I am American citizen with Chinese blood. The order matters. I would picture a British Chinese to be a naturalized Chinese citizen with British heritage. 

[katilac]

 

sorry, testing something

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by katilac

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

I find BAME to be very insulting. I'd rather be called people of color. And I think British Chinese sounds very wrong, as if they were still Chinese citizens. I would prefer Chinese American because this shows I am American citizen with Chinese blood. The order matters. I would picture a British Chinese to be a naturalized Chinese citizen with British heritage. 

I'm sorry you find BAME insulting; I didn't mean to hurt.

I'm puzzled by British Chinese as a term too. I checked before writing that I was correct that that was the normal usage. I would also expect it to be the other way round.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chinese

[JadeOrchidSong]

15 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm sorry you find BAME insulting; I didn't mean to hurt.

I'm puzzled by British Chinese as a term too. I checked before writing that I was correct that that was the normal usage. I would also expect it to be the other way round.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Chinese

It's my personal opinion. Maybe British BAME accept it just fine. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Jaybee said:

It may be more of a regional difference, or... like I said, I may be wrong...

Negro Spiritual is still used, and is not generally considered offensive.  I'm in a very liberal area.  We have an acquaintance who travels extensively and sings in churches - in different states, different countries (europe), various denominations.  He likes the messages in Negro Spirituals, and will often share some history of the hymn prior to singing it.  He has also sung them in historically Black Churches in the South where he was invited to sing.  

niger/nyger are both used in botatnical names.  .e.g. helleborus niger,.    niger/nyger seed is supposedly beloved by goldfinches - but the ones near me didn't get the memo.  (the house finches like it though.)

2 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

In my native country, it is a remnant of colonization I think in the context of church because I have only heard it used that way. In broader terms, we had students from African countries who came to study all the time and they were referred to as students from Nigeria or Ethiopia or wherever else in Africa they were from like students from other countries like Bahrain or Malaysia were referred to.  

africa is a continent, the rest are actual countries and more specific locations.  It would make sense to use the name of their country of origin rather than the continent.

[Condessa]

A relative once berated me for using the term “Hispanic”, claiming that it is a racist dog whistle and the proper term is “Latinx”.   (She lives in a super woke area, and loves to tell others why things like this mean they are actually bigots). 

Um, my husband and children are Hispanic (and not Latino)—but apparently they don’t count.  Because they don’t look Hispanic to her.

 

Just calling people whatever they call themselves and generally trying to be considerate seems to be the way to go.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

A relative once berated me for using the term “Hispanic”, claiming that it is a racist dog whistle and the proper term is “Latinx”.   (She lives in a super woke area, and loves to tell others why things like this mean they are actually bigots). 

Um, my husband and children are Hispanic (and not Latino)—but apparently they don’t count.  Because they don’t look Hispanic to her.

 

Just calling people whatever they call themselves and generally trying to be considerate seems to be the way to go.

I'm learning spanish (the goal is minimum conversant.  preferably fluent). 

I came across one site (joanna rants - language warning) by a venezuelan - ranting about her pet peeves.  this is one of them.  and no - people dont' believe she is venezualen because she is fair, has red hair, and is jewish. (and speaks perfect unaccented american english)    but she's also funny.  in the comment thread someone posted about "tbeing asian from south america".